Rhaenys_Targaryen

Small Questions v. 10105

2,397 posts in this topic

We don't know, but it's very likely that he did. He participated in Sack of King's Landing and possibly killed his first men there. During Greyjoy Rebellion Sandor was 18 or 19. Tywin lead assault on one of the Isles, it's not specified which, so probably his host of westermen fought there.

 

@Horse of Kent Harlan Grandison was already an old man during Aerys' reign, so it's nearly certain he joined KG long before, maybe even during Jaehaerys's or Egg's reign. If Jonothor Darry was Ser Willem's brother he probably also joined KG before (Willem was already master-at-arms when Rhaegar was young).

Lewyn most likely joined when Elia was betrothed to Rhaegar in 279, or when they married in 280 - that happened 2 or 3 years after Defiance of Duskendale when Ser Gwayne was killed. Unless Aerys kept that KG spot open for so long (after Harlan's dead Jaime quickly replaced him in the same year) and unless there was another swap in the KG and there is some unknow Aerys's Kingsguard who was later replaced, the new member was Oswell when or Jonothor Darry.

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9 hours ago, Horse of Kent said:

Do we know who replaced Gwayne Gaunt (after he died during the Defiance of Duskendale) in Aerys II's Kingsguard? It cannot be Barristan, Jaime or Gerold Hightower, but unless I'm missing something it is not specified which of Lewyn Martell, Harlan Grandison, Arthur Dayne, Oswell Whent or Jonothor Darry it was.

 

EDIT: I've been looking further and Arthur Dayne was a Kingsguard member at the time of Viserys' birth in 276, so that is him excluded too.

Harlan died an old man a few years later, so it is unlikely he joined only after Duskendale. We know nothing about Oswell Whent or Jonothor Darry in this regard, so both of them are possible, though @Blue Tiger has a good point about Jonothor Darry, who indeed was Willem Darry's brother, making it likely Jonothor had joined earlier as well.

TWOIAF suggests that Lewyn joining the KG was part of the betrothal/marriage of Rhaegar to Elia, similar to Loras joining the KG when Margaery is betrothed to Joffrey. Depending on when Steffon Baratheon died (failing his mission to find Rhaegar a bride), how quickly thereafter the negotiations began for the betrothal, and how long Aerys was willing to keep the KG position open, Lewyn might have been Gwayne's successor. Elia's betrothal to Rhaegar was announced in early 279 AC, which might mean that the negotiations were already ongoing towards the end of 278 AC. The Defiance ended in 277 AC, but if it occured late in the year, and Steffon's mission was both early in 278 AC, as well as short, Lewyn is still a possibility, I suppose.

Harlan's position was open for a few months, before Jaime officially joined, so it is not unlikely that Gwayne's position was similarly open for a few months as well. And Duskendale was a rather traumatic event for Aerys, which might not have sped up the decision making of naming a new KG.

Edited by Rhaenys_Targaryen

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8 hours ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

Harlan died an old man a few years later, so it is unlikely he joined only after Duskendale. We know nothing about Oswell Whent or Jonothor Darry in this regard, so both of them are possible, though @Blue Tiger has a good point about Jonothor Darry, who indeed was Willem Darry's brother, making it likely Jonothor had joined earlier as well.

TWOIAF suggests that Lewyn joining the KG was part of the betrothal/marriage of Rhaegar to Elia, similar to Loras joining the KG when Margaery is betrothed to Joffrey. Depending on when Steffon Baratheon died (failing his mission to find Rhaegar a bride), how quickly thereafter the negotiations began for the betrothal, and how long Aerys was willing to keep the KG position open, Lewyn might have been Gwayne's successor. Elia's betrothal to Rhaegar was announced in early 279 AC, which might mean that the negotiations were already ongoing towards the end of 278 AC. The Defiance ended in 277 AC, but if it occured late in the year, and Steffon's mission was both early in 278 AC, as well as short, Lewyn is still a possibility, I suppose.

Harlan's position was open for a few months, before Jaime officially joined, so it is not unlikely that Gwayne's position was similarly open for a few months as well. And Duskendale was a rather traumatic event for Aerys, which might not have sped up the decision making of naming a new KG.

you don't think after the Defiance, and the state of mind the Mad King was in, he would fill that position very quickly, to have as many protectors around him, since his paranoia really started after this incident? 

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1 hour ago, ser naes yennet said:

you don't think after the Defiance, and the state of mind the Mad King was in, he would fill that position very quickly, to have as many protectors around him, since his paranoia really started after this incident? 

Perhaps. It certainly is possible. But perhaps not. If he didn't think he could trust anyone new as his new personal guard, he would have a hard time chosing a new KG member, wouldn't he? Naming someone to the KG requires that the King trusts that person with his life, after all, and if the king can't find anyone new who he can trust like that (possibly due to his mental state at the time), the position might remain open for a while.

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I don't know if this is a small question but: could "a song of Ice and Fire" be also the title of an existing book in the World that GRRM created?

I get this idea basically from this quotes:

Quote

"As a young boy, the Prince of Dragonstone was bookish to a fault. He was reading so early that men said Queen Rhaella must have swallowed some books and a candle whilst he was in her womb. Rhaegar took no interest in the play of other children. The maesters were awed by his wits, but his father's knights would jest sourly that Baelor the Blessed had been born again. Until one day Prince Rhaegar found something in his scrolls that changed him. No one knows what it might have been, only that the boy suddenly appeared early one morning in the yard as the knights were donning their steel. He walked up to Ser Willem Darry, the master-at-arms, and said, 'I will require sword and armor. It seems I must be a warrior.'"

Quote
"Will you make a song for him?" the woman asked.
"He has a song," the man replied. "He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire."
Quote
"I remember," Dany said sadly. "They murdered Rhaegar's daughter as well, the little princess. Rhaenys, she was named, like Aegon's sister. There was no Visenya, but he said the dragon has three heads. What is the song of ice and fire?"
"It's no song I've ever heard."

 

So, Rhaegar was a bookworm..than he found a book that changed his life. Later he mentions "a song of ice and fire" but from other conversation it seems it is not literally a song. It's easy to come to the conclusion that "a song of ice and fire" is atually the title of the book found by Rhaegar when he was a boy. 

Just to clarify: I am not thinking GRRM is reusing the idea of "the neverending story" or similars, but still while we think the saga is named after Jon parentage or WW/Dragon conflict, it may simply be name after an existing book in the Old town library ^_^

Then of course this book could have be written by Bran/3eyeraven and put there for Rhaegar to read, and maybe this book is really the ASOIAF saga we know, and maybe at a certain point of time Bran will remove is face and under there is GRRM and...ok sorry sorry ignore this later part :ph34r:

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2 minutes ago, Marada78 said:

I don't know if this is a small question but: could "a song of Ice and Fire" be also the title of an existing book in the World that GRRM created?

I get this idea basically from this quotes:

 

So, Rhaegar was a bookworm..than he found a book that changed his life. Later he mentions "a song of ice and fire" but from other conversation it seems it is not literally a song. It's easy to come to the conclusion that "a song of ice and fire" is atually the title of the book found by Rhaegar when he was a boy. 

Just to clarify: I am not thinking GRRM is reusing the idea of "the neverending story" or similars, but still while we think the saga is named after Jon parentage or WW/Dragon conflict, it may simply be name after an existing book in the Old town library ^_^

Then of course this book could have be written by Bran/3eyeraven and put there for Rhaegar to read, and maybe this book is really the ASOIAF saga we know, and maybe at a certain point of time Bran will remove is face and under there is GRRM and...ok sorry sorry ignore this later part :ph34r:

No, there is an SSM indicating that the events we are reading will be The Song of Ice and Fire in the near future...

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Does the App say anything about Euron getting Dragonbinder from the warlocks?

If so, should that be on the wiki?

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14 minutes ago, Ser Leftwich said:

Does the App say anything about Euron getting Dragonbinder from the warlocks?

The Qarth entry:

The warlocks under Pyat Pree attempt to pursue and avenge themselves on Daenerys, but their ship is taken by Euron Greyjoy, who seizes their dragon-binding horn from Valyria and takes them as slaves.

14 minutes ago, Ser Leftwich said:

If so, should that be on the wiki?

Yes, I think so. If nothing more canon or more recent contradicts it.

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10 minutes ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

The Qarth entry:

The warlocks under Pyat Pree attempt to pursue and avenge themselves on Daenerys, but their ship is taken by Euron Greyjoy, who seizes their dragon-binding horn from Valyria and takes them as slaves.

Yes, I think so. If nothing more canon or more recent contradicts it.

And suggests that Euron is lying about having visited Valyria...

Quote

"That horn you heard I found amongst the smoking ruins that were Valyria, where no man has dared to walk but me.”

 

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That Valarr Targaryen died during the Great Spring Sickness is described in The Sworn Sword, but what is the source for him (and his brother Matarys) having died mere hours before Daeron II?

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47 minutes ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

That Valarr Targaryen died during the Great Spring Sickness is described in The Sworn Sword, but what is the source for him (and his brother Matarys) having died mere hours before Daeron II?

Couldn't find any source mentioning that.

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I have a very small question: are pages and squires always presumed to be "pageing" and "squiring" for a knight? If X is Y's squire, does Y have to be a knight?

The question came to me because there was some discussion previously as to whether Stannis was knighted. We know from GRRM (at least I have read a quote from SSM) that there is some honor-related social pressure involved in conferring knighthood, which is a primarily martial position; not all lords or highborn men are knights. Thus logically, we may have many lords who are not knights, including Stannis himself (I'm not trying to run down or play up Stannis, whom I am favorably inclined towards; just that he is the example I draw from).

But Stannis does have, from my recollection, squires. So can we assume that if he has squires he was knighted at some point? This question of course is not limited to this specific case. 

Edited by rhoynestar

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6 minutes ago, rhoynestar said:

I have a very small question: are pages and squires always presumed to be "pageing" and "squiring" for a knight? If X is Y's squire, does Y have to be a knight?

The question came to me because there was some discussion previously as to whether Stannis was knighted. We know from GRRM (at least I have read a quote from SSM) that there is some honor-related social pressure involved in conferring knighthood, which is a primarily martial position; not all lords or highborn men are knights. Thus logically, we may have many lords who are not knights, including Stannis himself (I'm not trying to run down or play up Stannis, whom I am favorably inclined towards; just that he is the example I draw from).

But Stannis does have, from my recollection, squires. So can we assume that if he has squires he was knighted at some point? This question of course is not limited to this specific case. 

Stannis knighted Davos, and only a knight (or a king, but Stannis was not a king at the time) can make another knight, so yes, Stannis had been, at some point, knighted.

As to whether it means that Y is a knight when X is Y's squire, I think that this quote from The Mystery Knight implies that yes, that's what it likely means (though, I suppose there are always exceptions, like the northern culture, where knighthood is not such a big deal)

"We want no quarrel, m'lord. There's only the two of us, me and my squire." He beckoned Egg forward.

"Squire? Do you claim to be a knight?"

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4 minutes ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

Stannis knighted Davos, and only a knight (or a king, but Stannis was not a king at the time) can make another knight, so yes, Stannis had been, at some point, knighted.

As to whether it means that Y is a knight when X is Y's squire, I think that this quote from The Mystery Knight implies that yes, that's what it likely means (though, I suppose there are always exceptions, like the northern culture, where knighthood is not such a big deal)

"We want no quarrel, m'lord. There's only the two of us, me and my squire." He beckoned Egg forward.

"Squire? Do you claim to be a knight?"

Thanks a lot! That answers both the general question I had and the more specific question regarding Stannis. So we can pretty much conclude squires and pages "squire" and "page" for knights only, except maybe in the North.

I had forgotten about Davos becoming Ser Davos Seaworth. Lovely piece of evidence. 

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A couple of other exceptions are the Iron Isles as a whole (e.g. Wex Pyke for Theon) and, with the Southrons, Podrick Payne.

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On ‎21‎/‎07‎/‎2016 at 6:13 AM, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

Harlan died an old man a few years later, so it is unlikely he joined only after Duskendale. We know nothing about Oswell Whent or Jonothor Darry in this regard, so both of them are possible, though @Blue Tiger has a good point about Jonothor Darry, who indeed was Willem Darry's brother, making it likely Jonothor had joined earlier as well.

TWOIAF suggests that Lewyn joining the KG was part of the betrothal/marriage of Rhaegar to Elia, similar to Loras joining the KG when Margaery is betrothed to Joffrey. Depending on when Steffon Baratheon died (failing his mission to find Rhaegar a bride), how quickly thereafter the negotiations began for the betrothal, and how long Aerys was willing to keep the KG position open, Lewyn might have been Gwayne's successor. Elia's betrothal to Rhaegar was announced in early 279 AC, which might mean that the negotiations were already ongoing towards the end of 278 AC. The Defiance ended in 277 AC, but if it occured late in the year, and Steffon's mission was both early in 278 AC, as well as short, Lewyn is still a possibility, I suppose.

Harlan's position was open for a few months, before Jaime officially joined, so it is not unlikely that Gwayne's position was similarly open for a few months as well. And Duskendale was a rather traumatic event for Aerys, which might not have sped up the decision making of naming a new KG.

I think there is a missing death or spot open for the KG at that time. Jamie is the youngest ever at 15, so that would mean Arthur becomes a KG no earlier than 276AC. He would be 16 in that year I believe. If there was no spot open in that year then we are not informed of a KG death. Jamie is easy to relate to replacing Harlan, Lewyn does seem to be tied to Gwayne but Arthur is difficult.

My only idea would be that a KG had accompanied Steffon on his mission and perished. That way Arthur is replacing Gwayne, Lewyn replaces the one lost with Steffon  and Jamie obviously with Harlan. Otherwise there was a spot open by the time Arthur turned 16 in 276AC. 

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5 hours ago, rhoynestar said:

I have a very small question: are pages and squires always presumed to be "pageing" and "squiring" for a knight? If X is Y's squire, does Y have to be a knight?

The question came to me because there was some discussion previously as to whether Stannis was knighted. We know from GRRM (at least I have read a quote from SSM) that there is some honor-related social pressure involved in conferring knighthood, which is a primarily martial position; not all lords or highborn men are knights. Thus logically, we may have many lords who are not knights, including Stannis himself (I'm not trying to run down or play up Stannis, whom I am favorably inclined towards; just that he is the example I draw from).

But Stannis does have, from my recollection, squires. So can we assume that if he has squires he was knighted at some point? This question of course is not limited to this specific case. 

Not always. Robb was not a knight, and Olyvar was his squire, and knighthood was expected in due time. 

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