Rhaenys_Targaryen

Small Questions v. 10105

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Regarding the timeline of Robert's Rebellion, from ASOS Catelyn I:

Quote

If she had lost a child before, that might explain Father's words, and much else besides . . . Lysa's match with Lord Arryn had been hastily arranged, and Jon was an old man even then, older than their father. An old man without an heir. His first two wives had left him childless, his brother's son had been murdered with Brandon Stark in King's Landing, his gallant cousin had died in the Battle of the Bells. He needed a young wife if House Arryn was to continue . . . a young wife known to be fertile.

Catelyn rose, threw on a robe, and descended the steps to the darkened solar to stand over her father. A sense of helpless dread filled her. "Father," she said, "Father, I know what you did." She was no longer an innocent bride with a head full of dreams. She was a widow, a traitor, a grieving mother, and wise, wise in the ways of the world. "You made him take her," she whispered. "Lysa was the price Jon Arryn had to pay for the swords and spears of House Tully."

This suggests to me that Jon agreed to marry Lysa after the Battle of the Bells, since he had lost nephew Elbert (executed by Aerys) and cousin Denys (killed by JonCon). However, how accurate is Catelyn's belief that "Lysa was the price Jon Arryn had to pay for the swords and spears of House Tully"? Hoster had already taken up arms against the Targaryens by marching with Ned to rescue Robert at Stoney Sept by this point.

Alternatively, TWOIAF suggests that the dual wedding occurred before the Battle of the Bells.

Quote

More victories were to come for Lord Robert and the stormlords as they marched to join forces with Lord Arryn and the Northmen who supported their cause. Rightly famed is Robert's grand victory at Stoney Sept, also called the Battle of the Bells, where he slew the famous Ser Myles Mooton—once Prince Rhaegar's squire—and five men besides, and might well have killed the new Hand, Lord Connington, had the battle brought them together. The victory sealed the entry of the riverlands into the conflict, following the marriage of Lord Tully's daughters to Lords Arryn and Stark.

 

Edited by Nittanian

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54 minutes ago, Nittanian said:

Regarding the timeline of Robert's Rebellion, from ASOS Catelyn I:

This suggests to me that Jon agreed to marry Lysa after the Battle of the Bells, since he had lost nephew Elbert (executed by Aerys) and cousin Denys (killed by JonCon). However, how accurate is Catelyn's belief that "Lysa was the price Jon Arryn had to pay for the swords and spears of House Tully"? Hoster had already taken up arms against the Targaryens by marching with Ned to rescue Robert at Stoney Sept by this point.

Alternatively, TWOIAF suggests that the duel wedding occurred before the Battle of the Bells.

 

I would say that her belief is accurate. She was there, and she would have known whether her wedding had taken place before or after the battle.

I think the bolded sentence is ambiguous enough to allow for Catelyn's statement to be correct. The victory led to the possibility of the weddings, and so sealed the participation of the riverlands in the conflict. Nor was the Battle of the Bells was not the only time the Tully's participated in the war, and though they had helped rescue Robert, their further support had been necessary to win the war.

In addition, the app (IIRC Rober Baratheon's entry) places Robert at the wedding, meaning it took place after the Bells. Which would also be most logical, as Robert was alone, wounded and being chased and in dire need of aid. It would be strange to organize a wedding and celebrate a feast in such a case, with Robert's life on the line.

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5 hours ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

I think the bolded sentence is ambiguous enough to allow for Catelyn's statement to be correct. The victory led to the possibility of the weddings, and so sealed the participation of the riverlands in the conflict.

Ah, gotcha!

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On 1/10/2017 at 3:47 PM, Lost Melnibonean said:

Any good theories about what role the Black Pearl will play in the Second Dance of the Dragons? 

Her last name is essentially Other, she is a possible daughter of Dragons, she is associated with the Daughter of Dusk, Lights seem to glow brighter when she is around. Just more symbolism and juxtaposing. Not a significant character, daughter of Dusk will probably not have a major role either.

If Dany pops in for a visit maybe they meet for a second who knows. Maybe Johnny Depp plays a role

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2 minutes ago, Ser Creighton said:

Her last name is essentially Other, she is a possible daughter of Dragons, she is associated with the Daughter of Dusk, Lights seem to glow brighter when she is around. Just more symbolism and juxtaposing. Not a significant character, daughter of Dusk will probably not have a major role either.

If Dany pops in for a visit maybe they meet for a second who knows. Maybe Johnny Depp plays a role

I don't think there are enough scarves in Braavos for this to happen :dunno:

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3 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

I don't think there are enough scarves in Braavos for this to happen :dunno:

We have not met the Sea lord yet, I here he reminds people of Kieth Richards.

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Just now, Ser Creighton said:

We have not met the Sea lord yet, I here he reminds people of Kieth Richards.

:lol:

SOLD! I'll buy that for a dollar.

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This has probably been asked a million times but how is the Kingsguard practical?  They serve for life, yet they're limited to only seven, so in theory there could be 7 decrepit old men guarding the monarch and nothing could be done about it until they start to die off.  Would they then become purely ceremonial and the real guards watching over the King are the City Watch or household guards?

In times of war there would be enough of them killed off I imagine to keep replenishing the ranks.  But I don't remember anything in the texts that addresses the issue of the ageing of the Kingsguard.

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Jaime Lannister replaced Harlan Grandison among the 7 Kingsguard. Grandison was an old man during Aerys II reign and it was likely that he was KG during the reign of Jaehaerys II and Aegon V (as Jaehaerys' reign was rather short). Grandison died in his sleep in his room in the White Sword Tower.

Theoretically, yes the KG could age to the point that they were decrepit old men, but the nature of being the King's bodyguards and the violent society they lived in, many died in the line of duty, so it never really was a problem. When the KG get to an advanced age, yes they do become more ceremonial as their ability to protect the King and his family is negligible.

Additionally, there is not a rule stating that a KG must be guarding the King at all times. An example of this is when the KG in Kingslanding gather in the White Sword Tower for a Council Meeting. Jaime's first order of business is to ask, "Who guards the King?". Ser Osmund Kettleblack said his two brothers and Ser Loras replied that his brother Garlan was guarding him as well. So yes if all the KG become too feeble, then the duty may be put to household guards.

They serve for life for a couple reasons. One, so they have no other allegiances. If they had a family to go to after their service was up, then they may act in accordance to what would be best for them rather than the king. Two, because the Night's Watch serves for life, and Visenya Targaryen, who conceived of the KG, patterned the KG vows after those of the Night's Watch.

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I get why they serve for life, but the difference between the KG and the NW is that the NW has no member limits, whereas the KG can only ever be seven.  It would be different if the KG were made up of a bigger company with only seven on duty at any one time; but that would detract from the honour and specialness of being chosen as a Kingsguard.  Retirement would be the only option but obviously with what happened to Barristan that was seen as a disgrace.

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35 minutes ago, maudisdottir said:

I get why they serve for life, but the difference between the KG and the NW is that the NW has no member limits, whereas the KG can only ever be seven.  It would be different if the KG were made up of a bigger company with only seven on duty at any one time; but that would detract from the honour and specialness of being chosen as a Kingsguard.  Retirement would be the only option but obviously with what happened to Barristan that was seen as a disgrace.

Like @Raisin' Bran said, the king could always rely on other men. In fact, given what we know about the intrigues of King's Landing, it would be foolish for a king not to have a household guard of a few hundred fighting men. 

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Oh, and also black basalt bridge at Breakwater Keep? I though black basalt was what Moat Caitlin was built with? But is that connected?

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@Snow Shrike Sea turtles, mate! Well, actually (imo) historical interbreeding with merlings/squishers/walrus-men/selkies/what-have-you.

I subscribe to the theory that Moat Cailin is actually made of GEotD/GeoDawnian-era fused black stone (not to be confused with Valyrian-era fbs). Unless Moat Cailin was built far more recently than believed, I can't see how it was built by the First Men. As for Breakwater Keep, I'd tend towards it just being normal black basalt built by First Men/Andals, & not some older human race. Though who knows, after all, it is rather close to Moat Cailin & along something of a trajectory of other Narrow Sea (& surrounds) Deep Ones connections:

  • Lorath (mazemakers gone)
  • Witch Isle
  • Crackclaw Point (squishers)
  • Driftmark (Driftwood Throne)
  • Perhaps Blackwater Bay (the Spears), Durran Godsgrief of Storm's End (his wife, Elenei), &/or Pentos (Prince of Pentos tradition of deflowering the maid of the waters & the maid of the fields)
  • Not to mention various deities like the Merling King himself, God of the Sea (Elenei's old man) & Goddess of the Wind (her mother), Lady of the Waves & Lord of the Skies (worshiped historically on the Three Sisters), etc (Father of Waters, Moon-Pale Maiden?).

If you have further enquiries, @LmL is you're man!

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5 hours ago, Lord Corlys Velaryon said:

@Snow Shrike Sea turtles, mate! Well, actually (imo) historical interbreeding with merlings/squishers/walrus-men/selkies/what-have-you.

I subscribe to the theory that Moat Cailin is actually made of GEotD/GeoDawnian-era fused black stone (not to be confused with Valyrian-era fbs).

Sea Turtles! Lol. Hadn't even considered that, but it would explain so much!  Thanks!  

I'll have a look at the links.

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On 15/01/2017 at 5:17 AM, Snow Shrike said:

Oh, and also black basalt bridge at Breakwater Keep? I though black basalt was what Moat Caitlin was built with? But is that connected?

To present a different interpretation, the basalt could have been easily mined nearby for both locations: the Three Sisters are almost certainly volcanic islands and there is some evidence to suggest that the Cape of Eagles is volcanic as well.

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12 minutes ago, Maester of Valyria said:

To present a different interpretation, the basalt could have been easily mined nearby for both locations: the Three Sisters are almost certainly volcanic islands and there is some evidence to suggest that the Cape of Eagles is volcanic as well.

Why do you say that about the Cape of Eagles?

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Was Strong Belwas aware that Arstan Whitebeard is Barristan Selmy?

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2 hours ago, Oakhearts head said:

Was Strong Belwas aware that Arstan Whitebeard is Barristan Selmy?

I doubt he would know or care who Barristan the Bold is. Knights of Westeros would mean little to him. A pit fighting eunuch has no need of a squire but he still went along with the farce of having Arstan squire for him so he may have known Arstan was somebody of note. I just doubt that he cared much. 

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10 minutes ago, Lost Umber said:

I doubt he would know or care who Barristan the Bold is. Knights of Westeros would mean little to him. A pit fighting eunuch has no need of a squire but he still went along with the farce of having Arstan squire for him so he may have known Arstan was somebody of note. I just doubt that he cared much. 

A few of us (not me) believe that Belwas has orders to take down Barristan at the appropriate moment. 

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