Rhaenys_Targaryen

Small Questions v. 10105

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1 hour ago, Consigliere said:

Lord Varys' notes on Son's of the Dragon reading. Don't know if there is another source.

Yeah, there were multiple sources. Martin read it three times as I recall. Lord Vary's was the second and most detailed but there may have been a nugget or two of new information in the reports of the third reading.

I'll see if I can find it but it would be a lot easier if I could remember what convention it was read at.

Also isn't Martin releasing the whole story this fall? That might clear it up depending on how much they have to edit out. 

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@Rhaenys_Targaryen I hope you don't mind me asking, but this has been driving me nutso for about a week now. The wiki says Jason Mallister has a brother but the details are unknown. I am assuming this is just a passing statement by someone in the books, but I can't find where. Do you happen to know???

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/House_Mallister

Much appreciated :cheers:

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2 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

@Rhaenys_Targaryen I hope you don't mind me asking, but this has been driving me nutso for about a week now. The wiki says Jason Mallister has a brother but the details are unknown. I am assuming this is just a passing statement by someone in the books, but I can't find where. Do you happen to know???

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/House_Mallister

Much appreciated :cheers:

I don't have my books handy at the moment but check the appendices at the end of the books and mayhaps it is there?

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6 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

@Rhaenys_Targaryen I hope you don't mind me asking, but this has been driving me nutso for about a week now. The wiki says Jason Mallister has a brother but the details are unknown. I am assuming this is just a passing statement by someone in the books, but I can't find where. Do you happen to know???

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/House_Mallister

Much appreciated :cheers:

The RPG by Green Ronin mentions that Jason fought at the Trident to avenge his brother's death during Robert's Rebellion. 

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10 hours ago, RumHam said:

Yeah, there were multiple sources. Martin read it three times as I recall. Lord Vary's was the second and most detailed but there may have been a nugget or two of new information in the reports of the third reading.

I'll see if I can find it but it would be a lot easier if I could remember what convention it was read at.

Also isn't Martin releasing the whole story this fall? That might clear it up depending on how much they have to edit out. 

I've  gone through all the LonCon notes from 2014, and the reports from Bubicon where SotD was read, but I can't find it in there. I was looking for it as the wiki depicts Aethon as Daemon's son in the family tree,  and specifically calls Aethon's daughter Alyssa Daemon's granddaughter, but I can't find a reference confirming it.

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Posted (edited)

@Rhaenys_Targaryen:

There is no textual evidence I'm aware of that comments on Aethon Velaryon's ancestry nor is there any confirmation that he is indeed the son of Daemon Velaryon (I). However, we can, of course, speculate that this is the case. The fact that there is another Daemon around as Lord of Driftmark and Master of Ships - a man whose defection to Prince Jaehaerys is a major blow to the regime of Maegor the Cruel - later on suggests that the man might have been named after his grandfather who died during the Conquest just as the Sea Snake was later named after the first Lord Commander of the Kingsguard.

Alyssa Velaryon seems to be as old as Prince Aenys, suggesting she, too, was born in 7 AC. The Daemon chap may have been her older brother while Corlys the Kingsguard may have been Aethon's younger brother. Alyssa herself is described as 'the Lady Alyssa', the maiden daughter of the Lord of the Tides, Aethon Velaryon, King Aegon's Lord Admiral and Master of Ships.' There is also a description of sorts. 'She shared his [Aenys'] silvery hair and purple eyes'. However, we get know indication or confirmation that Alyssa Velaryon had a Targaryen mother. What we get is the standard explanation that the Velaryons are family descended of Valyrian stock, too, and that the Conqueror's own mother had been a Velaryon, making Aenys and Alyssa cousins.

In fact, as I hope to have marked in my original report we don't even know whether the guy is spelled 'Aethon'. It is most likely spelling on the basis of George's reading (just as 'Hubert' is the most likeliest spelling of the Arryn cousin who was given the Vale after the deaths of Ronnel, his children, and Jonos the Kinslayer) but until the publication of 'The Sons of the Dragon' this is not confirmed.

By the way, there are hints how we can really put down quite a few events in the time line. Maegor was born in the first half of 12 AC not only because Visenya announced her pregnancy in 11 AC but also because she gave Dark Sister to Maegor as a nameday gift in 25 AC, half a year before his wedding in the same year. Quicksilver also seems to have hatched in the year of Aenys' birth (7 AC). It also seems that Alyssa did not get pregnant at once after the wedding. Rhaena (Aenys had chosen the name for his daughter, by the way) was born in 23 AC and when Visenya suggested that the garbled question of succession - whether Maegor or Rhaena came first - should be settled by means of  a betrothal between Maegor and Rhaena Maegor had just turned twelve, meaning that this suggestion would have come only in 24 AC.

Maegor and Ceryse then marry later in 25 AC, in the Starry Sept of Oldtown itself, with Ceryse's uncle, the High Septon, performing the rites. Trying to unmake or add to that marriage was really madness if you ask me.

The two campaigns in the Stepstones during which Maegor assisted Aethon Velaryon and Ser Osmund Strong (the Hand) occurred in 29 and 30 AC (shortly after Maegor got knighted by his father at a tourney at Riverrun in 28 AC), and the guy against whom they fought was not named Salassor Saan (as the wiki claims) but instead Sargasso Saan (a much better name if you ask me).

And I realize we have to change the hatchling count as well. There were half a dozen hatchlings during the later years of Aegon's reign, not half a dozen (Quicksilver included) since the Conquest. That means that we have at least six new dragons during the reign of the Conqueror not just six.

Edited by Lord Varys

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3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

@Rhaenys_Targaryen:

There is no textual evidence I'm aware of that comments on Aethon Velaryon's ancestry nor is there any confirmation that he is indeed the son of Daemon Velaryon (I). However, we can, of course, speculate that this is the case. The fact that there is another Daemon around as Lord of Driftmark and Master of Ships - a man whose defection to Prince Jaehaerys is a major blow to the regime of Maegor the Cruel - later on suggests that the man might have been named after his grandfather who died during the Conquest just as the Sea Snake was later named after the first Lord Commander of the Kingsguard.

Thanks! That settles it! :) 

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Alyssa Velaryon seems to be as old as Prince Aenys, suggesting she, too, was born in 7 AC. The Daemon chap may have been her older brother while Corlys the Kingsguard may have been Aethon's younger brother. Alyssa herself is described as 'the Lady Alyssa', the maiden daughter of the Lord of the Tides, Aethon Velaryon, King Aegon's Lord Admiral and Master of Ships.' There is also a description of sorts. 'She shared his [Aenys'] silvery hair and purple eyes'. However, we get know indication or confirmation that Alyssa Velaryon had a Targaryen mother. What we get is the standard explanation that the Velaryons are family descended of Valyrian stock, too, and that the Conqueror's own mother had been a Velaryon, making Aenys and Alyssa cousins.

We do, in The World of Ice and Fire:

Prince Aenys was wed in 22 AC to Alyssa Velaryon, the daughter of the king's master of ships and lord admiral; though she was a Targaryen upon her mother's side, this made her only a cousin.

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

In fact, as I hope to have marked in my original report we don't even know whether the guy is spelled 'Aethon'. It is most likely spelling on the basis of George's reading (just as 'Hubert' is the most likeliest spelling of the Arryn cousin who was given the Vale after the deaths of Ronnel, his children, and Jonos the Kinslayer) but until the publication of 'The Sons of the Dragon' this is not confirmed.

You did, no worries. But such names are used on the wiki (and adjusted after publication demonstrates that the spelling was incorrect, like in the case of Princess Meria Martell, whose first name had been known as Mariya until publication proved otherwise, due to accounts from readings).

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

By the way, there are hints how we can really put down quite a few events in the time line. Maegor was born in the first half of 12 AC not only because Visenya announced her pregnancy in 11 AC but also because she gave Dark Sister to Maegor as a nameday gift in 25 AC, half a year before his wedding in the same year. Quicksilver also seems to have hatched in the year of Aenys' birth (7 AC). It also seems that Alyssa did not get pregnant at once after the wedding. Rhaena (Aenys had chosen the name for his daughter, by the way) was born in 23 AC and when Visenya suggested that the garbled question of succession - whether Maegor or Rhaena came first - should be settled by means of  a betrothal between Maegor and Rhaena Maegor had just turned twelve, meaning that this suggestion would have come only in 24 AC.

Maegor and Ceryse then marry later in 25 AC, in the Starry Sept of Oldtown itself, with Ceryse's uncle, the High Septon, performing the rites. Trying to unmake or add to that marriage was really madness if you ask me.

The two campaigns in the Stepstones during which Maegor assisted Aethon Velaryon and Ser Osmund Strong (the Hand) occurred in 29 and 30 AC (shortly after Maegor got knighted by his father at a tourney at Riverrun in 28 AC), and the guy against whom they fought was not named Salassor Saan (as the wiki claims) but instead Sargasso Saan (a much better name if you ask me).

And I realize we have to change the hatchling count as well. There were half a dozen hatchlings during the later years of Aegon's reign, not half a dozen (Quicksilver included) since the Conquest. That means that we have at least six new dragons during the reign of the Conqueror not just six.

Some interesting new details! Thank you for sharing! 

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26 minutes ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

We do, in The World of Ice and Fire:

Prince Aenys was wed in 22 AC to Alyssa Velaryon, the daughter of the king's master of ships and lord admiral; though she was a Targaryen upon her mother's side, this made her only a cousin.

Yeah, I know that. It is odd that 'The Sons of the Dragon' does not mention anything of that sort. This sentence of TWoIaF seems to be more or less a condensed rewriting of a longer paragraph from Gyldayn's writing. And there George indicates Aenys and Alyssa are (second) cousins through Valaena Velaryon, limiting the kinship to the Velaryon side of the family tree.

It might be that Ran and Linda got as curious about the family tree of the early Targaryens as we are, asking George about Alyssa's parents, resulting in George revealing/adding Alyssa's Targaryen mother. But it is strange that no Targaryen cousins outside House Velaryon are mentioned. There is no other male branch mentioned during the Conquest, nor are there any female members of the family left. Not just Aerion but Valaena, too, seems to be dead during the Conquest, and nothing indicates that any siblings of Aerion's are still alive at that point.

Perhaps the second half of 'The Sons of the Dragon' delves deeper into that mystery. After all, Alyssa and her children clearly were among the most prominent enemies of Maegor during his reign.

The best way to make Aenys and Alyssa closer related would be to make her mother a much younger sister of Lord Aerion, of about the same age as Aegon and his sisters. Aegon could then have married this aunt of his to Aethon Velaryon after the Conquest was over, both as a reward for Daemon Velaryon's prowess during the war as well as to his best that there would be heirs presumptive around who could bond with the family dragons should he and his sister-wives have indeed no heirs of their own body. Aegon and his sisters must have been quite aware that something was wrong with some (or rather only one) of them at the beginning of their reign. And up until the birth of Aenys the succession must have been a convoluted mess. There were three Targaryens alive, of course, and if Aegon had died Rhaenys and Visenya would have continued the rule in their own right, remarrying and trying to conceive children with other consorts, but the question who would sit the Iron Throne should all the three royal siblings die without issue would have been simmering both at court and across the entire Realm.

By having a Velaryon-Targaryen union children from such a marriage would have been the second best thing to children of Aegon's own body, assuming they could become dragonriders. When Aethon had a daughter she became the natural bride for Prince Aenys while his son Daemon (II) - if he indeed was Aethon's son - could have very well have come immediately after Prince Maegor in the line of succession. That would have made him a very important and influential man in the later years of Maegor's rule when the man had killed two of Alyssa's sons and disinherited Prince Jaehaerys in favor of his grandniece Aerea.

26 minutes ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

You did, no worries. But such names are used on the wiki (and adjusted after publication demonstrates that the spelling was incorrect, like in the case of Princess Meria Martell, whose first name had been known as Mariya until publication proved otherwise, due to accounts from readings).

Yeah, I also remember 'Aelix' as the old spelling for Aelyx.

26 minutes ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

Some interesting new details! Thank you for sharing! 

Another tidbit for the naming thing. It is confirmed that Alyssa named her youngest daughter Vaella, so our ideas that this was most likely a version of a Velaryon name (like Jaehaerys, which could very well be a version of the classical Velaryon name Jacaerys). But considering that the name was later also used for Daeron's daughter it might also be possible that Alyssa's elusive Targaryen mother (if she existed) might have been another Vaella Targaryen.

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On 4/18/2017 at 4:09 AM, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

Tyrion thinks that Sansa had the best motive, although he isn't sure how she could have carried out the deed

Assuming Joffrey had not simply choked to death on a bit of food, which even Tyrion found hard to swallow, Sansa must have poisoned him. Joff practically put his cup down in her lap, and he’d given her ample reason. Any doubts Tyrion might have had vanished when his wife did. One flesh, one heart, one soul. His mouth twisted. She wasted no time proving how much those vows meant to her, did she? Well, what did you expect, dwarf?
And yet... where would Sansa have gotten poison? He could not believe the girl had acted alone in this. Do I really want to find her? Would the judges believe that Tyrion’s child bride had poisoned a king without her husband’s knowledge? I wouldn’t. Cersei would insist that they had done the deed together.

I suspect that, once Tyrion learns of Littlefinger's association with Sansa in the Vale, he'll start to consider that LF might have played a role in Joffrey's death.

Forgot about that.  But I would think that Tyrion would think about it more.  But in ADWD, he was depressed as hell, so maybe he wasn't in the right frame of mind to think about it.  If he were on top of his game, I think he would have at least suspected the Tyrells.

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1 hour ago, Bob Sacamano said:

Forgot about that.  But I would think that Tyrion would think about it more.  But in ADWD, he was depressed as hell, so maybe he wasn't in the right frame of mind to think about it.  If he were on top of his game, I think he would have at least suspected the Tyrells.

Certainly possible, he was aware of their plan to marry Sansa to Willas. Not to mention that Tommen would be better for them then Joff ever could be.

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22 hours ago, Lord Wraith said:

Certainly possible, he was aware of their plan to marry Sansa to Willas. Not to mention that Tommen would be better for them then Joff ever could be.

Yea, it's not a big deal.  Just surprised that finding the actual murderer has not been a main motivation for Tyrion.  He does not like getting played!

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Do we know any of the songs Rhaegar wrote? For some reason I thought I recalled it being implied that he may have written the song about Jenny, but I can't find it now.

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Is Septon Cellador the one who married Tyrion and Tysha? Tyrion recalls having a drunk Septon do his nuptials, and the only other drunken Septon I recall resides at castle black. This probably can't truly be answered, but it seems possible to me that Tywin probably sent him away after the marriage. 

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On 4/20/2017 at 9:20 PM, Bob Sacamano said:

Yea, it's not a big deal.  Just surprised that finding the actual murderer has not been a main motivation for Tyrion.  He does not like getting played!

Indeed.

15 minutes ago, KingMance said:

Is Septon Cellador the one who married Tyrion and Tysha? Tyrion recalls having a drunk Septon do his nuptials, and the only other drunken Septon I recall resides at castle black. This probably can't truly be answered, but it seems possible to me that Tywin probably sent him away after the marriage. 

I haven't heard this idea before but it does make a lot of sense.

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Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, KingMance said:

Is Septon Cellador the one who married Tyrion and Tysha? Tyrion recalls having a drunk Septon do his nuptials, and the only other drunken Septon I recall resides at castle black. This probably can't truly be answered, but it seems possible to me that Tywin probably sent him away after the marriage. 

I agree we can't answer this with what information we have, but I doubt Tyrion would not have recognized him during his stay at Castle Black, if he was the same septon.

 

Edited by SFDanny

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9 minutes ago, SFDanny said:

I agree we can't answer this with what information we have, but I doubt Tyrion would not have recognized him during his stay at Castle Black, if he was the same septon.

 

That gave me pause too, but I don't remember him having dinner with the LC, Aemon, and the bunch. 

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37 minutes ago, KingMance said:

That gave me pause too, but I don't remember him having dinner with the LC, Aemon, and the bunch. 

I can only quote this part of the text that says this:

Quote

As the queen's own brother, Tyrion Lannister had been an honored guest of the Night's Watch. The Lord Commander had given him rooms in the King's Tower - so called, though no king had visited it for a hundred years - and Lannister dined at Mormont's own table and spent his days riding the Wall and his nights dicing and drinking with Ser Alliser and Bowen Marsh and the other high officers. (AGoT 155)

I can only think that at some point the only Septon at Castle Black would have been included in those meals and bouts of drinking. Perhaps not, but I would think it likely.

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This is probably the wrong thread (not exactly a "small" question") but I'm trying to find all the instances where the different characters first hear about Dany's dragons. The only ones I can definitively remember are Sam and Maester Aemon in Braavos, and the Prologue in Oldtown where they're discussing the sailors' stories. Can someone point me towards any others?

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39 minutes ago, maudisdottir said:

This is probably the wrong thread (not exactly a "small" question") but I'm trying to find all the instances where the different characters first hear about Dany's dragons. The only ones I can definitively remember are Sam and Maester Aemon in Braavos, and the Prologue in Oldtown where they're discussing the sailors' stories. Can someone point me towards any others?

Varys reports a three-headed dragon having been seen in Qarth in Tyrion 3, ASOS

The eunuch drew a parchment from his sleeve. "A kraken has been seen off the Fingers." He giggled. "Not a Greyjoy, mind you, a true kraken. It attacked an Ibbenese whaler and pulled it under. There is fighting on the Stepstones, and a new war between Tyrosh and Lys seems likely. Both hope to win Myr as ally. Sailors back from the Jade Sea report that a three-headed dragon has hatched in Qarth, and is the wonder of that city—"

However, they clearly do not realize what it means, as Tyrion learns about the dragons off page, which he recalls in Tyrion 2, ADWD 

Yet if the lord of cheese could be believed, the Mad King's daughter had hatched three living dragons. 

Doran mentions Daenerys' dragons in ADWD, and considering the absence of shock from Quentyn, I'd say that Doran had learned about them before Quentyn had set sail, and had informed Quentyn that he'd encounter them.

In the prologue of AFFC, Leo Tyrell confirms the rumors his fellow students are discussing

“Truly? Then how would I tell you about the dragons?” Leo shrugged again. “The mongrel has the right of it. The Mad King’s daughter is alive, and she’s hatched herself three dragons.”

Cersei learns once more about the dragons in AFFC, Cersei 4, but dismisses the stories the sailors tell

"One last thing, Your Grace," said Aurane Waters, in an apologetic tone. "I hesitate to take up the council's time with trifles, but there has been some queer talk heard along the docks of late. Sailors from the east. They speak of dragons . . ."

". . . and manticores, no doubt, and bearded snarks?" Cersei chuckled. "Come back to me when you hear talk of dwarfs, my lord." She stood, to signal that the meeting was at an end.

She does the same in Cersei V

"The slave revolt in Astapor has spread to Meereen, it would seem. Sailors off a dozen ships speak of dragons . . ."

"Harpies. It is harpies in Meereen." She remembered that from somewhere. Meereen was at the far end of the world, out east beyond Valyria. "Let the slaves revolt. Why should I care? We keep no slaves in Westeros. Is that all you have for me?"

Kevan Lannister, Pycelle, and Mace Tyrell discuss Daenerys and her dragons with the rest of the small council present in the epilogue of ADWD

“We have these tales coming from the east as well. A second Targaryen, and one whose blood no man can question. Daenerys Stormborn.”
“As mad as her father,” declared Lord Mace Tyrell.
That would be the same father that Highgarden and House Tyrell supported to the bitter end and well beyond. “Mad she may be,” Ser Kevan said, “but with so much smoke drifting west, surely there must be some fire burning in the east.”
Grand Maester Pycelle bobbed his head. “Dragons. These same stories have reached Oldtown. Too many to discount. A silver-haired queen with three dragons.”
“At the far end of the world,” said Mace Tyrell. “Queen of Slaver’s Bay, aye. She is welcome to it.”

 

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10 hours ago, KingMance said:

Is Septon Cellador the one who married Tyrion and Tysha? Tyrion recalls having a drunk Septon do his nuptials, and the only other drunken Septon I recall resides at castle black. This probably can't truly be answered, but it seems possible to me that Tywin probably sent him away after the marriage. 

Works for me. 

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