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On Rhaego and Aegor


Gwindor

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This got me wondering a few days ago. I've seen this discussed in a different thread, but only briefly, and wanted to dedicate a separate thread to this.

The prophecy of the Stallion who Mounts the World is unique in ASOIAF in that it seems completely false. Daenerys even saw a vision in the House of the Undying of a person, who she assumed her stillborn son Rhaego had been destined to become.

"A tall lord with copper skin and silver-gold hair stood beneath the banner of a fiery stallion, a burning city behind him."

The banner of a fiery stallion. Seemingly, this symbolically represents the union of Dany and Drogo: a dragon and a horse. But there was a person with a similar sigil - Aegor 'Bittersteel' Rivers (also, symbolically, a product of a dragon/horse union). So maybe Dany's vision wasn't about Rhaego? Or maybe it was, and Rhaego was somehow magically related to Aegor, and the stillbirth was a result of someone working against Bittersteel?

I don't know what this means, but maybe there's some connection? What do you think? Bloodraven is very important to the overall plot after all, why not also his hated half-brother?

And finally, my favorite, and at the same time the most crackpottish, part. Their names are anagrams of each other!

'Rhaego' = 'R[h]' + 'aego' => 'Aego' + r[h] = 'Aegor'.

Admittedly, this works only if we assume that the 'h' in 'Rhaego' is silent, and only serves as a kind of link between 'r' and 'ae' in spelling, but still, it looks funny to me :) Given that Alleras=Sarella is considered almost canon, who knows?

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It's quite a decent parallel, and one I hadn't spotted before. Nice one. 

The main significance I see emerging from it is how it underlines a theme we see recurring a fair bit in the series: the subjectivity of saviors/heroes. Mirri justifies her role in Rhaego's death to Dany by pointing out that being 'the Stallion that Mounts the World' would have meant being a source of misery to so many other civilisations. The Dothrakhi hero is a villain to the peaceful Lhazreen. In the case of Bittersteel, he's the founder of the Golden Company and the man who kept the flame of the Blackfyre cause burning when it might well have gone out after the Redgrass Field. To the GC/BF supporters, he's their founding father and a thorn in the side of the 'falseborn' Targaryens; to Targ supporters, he's the cause of multiple wars and rebellions who undermined the long term stability of the realm. 

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Hmm... That symbolism is pretty interesting. I assume that Illyrio is a descendant of Daemon Blackfyre and Aegon Rivers, and that our wee Aegon is his son. And we can be relatively sure that Daenerys's blood cannot be questioned, so Rhaegar would have been the son of Daenerys Targaryen and Drogo. But what do Rhaegar and Aegon have in common? Maybe the vision Daenerys saw was Rhaego's promise (that copper skin leaves no doubt), but maybe, Aegon will fulfill whatever was foreseen in that vision? 

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I thought maybe this symbolism hints at some literal connection. Like, could the whole marriage between Dany and Drogo have been Bittersteel-related? The reasons for this marriage still aren't totally clear, and at least from Drogo's perspective, the marriage seems to have primarily been aimed at production of the Stallion. Rhaego would be Aegor reborn or something (Rhaego was after all commented to have been dead for years, which sounds kind of odd).

I mean, his brother is still a huge part of the story, and it's been 125 years since his birth. Maybe Aegor is also not completely gone from the world in some way? Of course, he's left the Golden Company after him, and that is a huge impact, also (f)Aegon might have descended from him, if he is a Blackfyre (Aegor married Daemon's daughter). But if Brynden literally lives on, why couldn't Aegor?

I think it would make some narrative sense if their enmity (itself an embodiment of the ever-present Blackwood-Bracken rivalry) was still going on and perhaps shaping the whole story. But of course Bittersteel doesn't absolutely need to personally survive for that, Bloodraven might just as well be now struggling with the legacy of his hated brother.

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I doubt Aegor is alive. But he was smiling down on Jon Connington and Aegon. Brynden Rivers and Shira Sestak were sorcerers, but there's no reason to suggest that Daemon Blackfyre and Aegor Rivers were. In fact, the Aegon I have in mind would probably mistrust sorcery. 

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26 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

I doubt Aegon is alive. But he was smiling down on Jon Connington and Aegon. Brynden Rivers and Shira Sestak were sorcerers, but there's no reason to suggest that Daemon Blackfyre and Aegon Rivers were. In fact, the Aegon I have in mind would probably mistrust sorcery. 

Yes, probably. I myself find it more likely that it's his heritage that still plays a role, not he himself.

BTW, Bittersteel's first name was AegoR, not AegoN. Especially considering there's an actual AegoN in this discussion, this could cause some confusion :) 

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4 hours ago, Gwindor said:

I thought maybe this symbolism hints at some literal connection. Like, could the whole marriage between Dany and Drogo have been Bittersteel-related? The reasons for this marriage still aren't totally clear, and at least from Drogo's perspective, the marriage seems to have primarily been aimed at production of the Stallion. Rhaego would be Aegor reborn or something (Rhaego was after all commented to have been dead for years, which sounds kind of odd).

I mean, his brother is still a huge part of the story, and it's been 125 years since his birth. Maybe Aegor is also not completely gone from the world in some way? Of course, he's left the Golden Company after him, and that is a huge impact, also (f)Aegon might have descended from him, if he is a Blackfyre (Aegor married Daemon's daughter). But if Brynden literally lives on, why couldn't Aegor?

I think it would make some narrative sense if their enmity (itself an embodiment of the ever-present Blackwood-Bracken rivalry) was still going on and perhaps shaping the whole story. But of course Bittersteel doesn't absolutely need to personally survive for that, Bloodraven might just as well be now struggling with the legacy of his hated brother.

Interesting idea, but I think the Bittersteel-Bloodraven feud will have to be continued symbolically, rather than literally.  Bloodraven disappeared in a ranging, his whereabouts remain a mystery to everyone outside of his cave, but Bittersteel died in battle, his skull was removed from his body, boiled clean, dipped in gold, and is on display in Harry Strickland's tent.  

Dany has no more familial tie to Bittersteel than she does to Bloodraven, and unless Bittersteel had an unknown fling with a Dothraki in Drogo's ancestry, neither did Rhaego. However, Bloodraven and Bran are currently up to something having to do with the next Battle for the Dawn, while Bittersteel's Golden Company is in the process of invading Westeros from the South, which could pull resources from the fight against the Others. Bloodraven could also decide, as Maester Aemon did, that Dany is the Prince that was Promised, and decide to back her in whatever way he can.

As to the question of if Bloodraven lives, why not Bittersteel, the answer could easily lie with their mothers: Blackwood vs. Bracken. Blackwood blood is suspected to play a role in warging abilities (I believe there is a thread related to this topic active now ;)), while there is no known connection with Bracken blood, except enmity towards Blackwoods. 

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7 hours ago, Gwindor said:

This got me wondering a few days ago. I've seen this discussed in a different thread, but only briefly, and wanted to dedicate a separate thread to this.

The prophecy of the Stallion who Mounts the World is unique in ASOIAF in that it seems completely false. Daenerys even saw a vision in the House of the Undying of a person, who she assumed her stillborn son Rhaego had been destined to become.

"A tall lord with copper skin and silver-gold hair stood beneath the banner of a fiery stallion, a burning city behind him."

The banner of a fiery stallion. Seemingly, this symbolically represents the union of Dany and Drogo: a dragon and a horse. But there was a person with a similar sigil - Aegor 'Bittersteel' Rivers (also, symbolically, a product of a dragon/horse union). So maybe Dany's vision wasn't about Rhaego? Or maybe it was, and Rhaego was somehow magically related to Aegor, and the stillbirth was a result of someone working against Bittersteel?

I don't know what this means, but maybe there's some connection? What do you think? Bloodraven is very important to the overall plot after all, why not also his hated half-brother?

And finally, my favorite, and at the same time the most crackpottish, part. Their names are anagrams of each other!

'Rhaego' = 'R[h]' + 'aego' => 'Aego' + r[h] = 'Aegor'.

Admittedly, this works only if we assume that the 'h' in 'Rhaego' is silent, and only serves as a kind of link between 'r' and 'ae' in spelling, but still, it looks funny to me :) Given that Alleras=Sarella is considered almost canon, who knows?

If u wanna get real crackpot then I have considered that Aegon is the defendant of Princess Calla (no not the one from the gummie bears lol) Blackfyre and Aegor (Bittersteel). Remember that Illyrio says the male Blackfyre line died out. If Danny believes this Stallion is her child then maybe she has a child with Aegon but Aegon does not have copper skin so could it be his child with Arianne in the future ? Way too crackpot I know but these books keep us going anything is possible. I guess in this case Aegon is a Targaryen since Bittersteel was legitimized.

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4 hours ago, Gwindor said:

Yes, probably. I myself find it more likely that it's his heritage that still plays a role, not he himself.

BTW, Bittersteel's first name was AegoR, not AegoN. Especially considering there's an actual AegoN in this discussion, this could cause some confusion :) 

Yeah, my mistake. Or maybe it was that damn auto correct. 

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Yolkboy and Lady Gwen came up with a theory that the Stallion that mounts the World is actually Drogon. The basis of this theory is when it was prophesied, 3000 years ago. Back then, those who saw this prophecy might have never known what a dragon looked liked and just called it a horse. Just like they call stars by horse names. Which would be very interesting, and would reason as to why the Lharzeen are trying to kill the dragons in Mereen, because they might know that one of them is the Stallion that mounts the world.

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16 hours ago, Eden-Mackenzie said:

Interesting idea, but I think the Bittersteel-Bloodraven feud will have to be continued symbolically, rather than literally.  Bloodraven disappeared in a ranging, his whereabouts remain a mystery to everyone outside of his cave, but Bittersteel died in battle, his skull was removed from his body, boiled clean, dipped in gold, and is on display in Harry Strickland's tent.  

Dany has no more familial tie to Bittersteel than she does to Bloodraven, and unless Bittersteel had an unknown fling with a Dothraki in Drogo's ancestry, neither did Rhaego. However, Bloodraven and Bran are currently up to something having to do with the next Battle for the Dawn, while Bittersteel's Golden Company is in the process of invading Westeros from the South, which could pull resources from the fight against the Others. Bloodraven could also decide, as Maester Aemon did, that Dany is the Prince that was Promised, and decide to back her in whatever way he can.

As to the question of if Bloodraven lives, why not Bittersteel, the answer could easily lie with their mothers: Blackwood vs. Bracken. Blackwood blood is suspected to play a role in warging abilities (I believe there is a thread related to this topic active now ;)), while there is no known connection with Bracken blood, except enmity towards Blackwoods. 

Are there any theories out there concerning Drogo being a Blackfyre and/or Bittersteel descendant? 

I'm just spitballing here, but here's a possible scenario.  Bittersteel-descendant woman gets kidnapped ala Burned Men/Arryn style.  However, unlike a lady on her way to marry a Bracken, this lady was a Bracken (descendant).  The khal who kidnaps her makes her either his concumbine or wife, they have issue which eventually results in Drogo.  Additionally, if this woman had a brother or brothers, they would likely be sold into slavery, which could explain how Varys and/or Serra (assuming one or both are Bittersteel/Daemon descendants), or rather their ancestor(s), ended up into slavery.

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1 minute ago, Isobel Harper said:

Are there any theories out there concerning Drogo being a Blackfyre and/or Bittersteel descendant? 

I'm just spitballing here, but here's a possible scenario.  Bittersteel-descendant woman gets kidnapped ala Burned Men/Arryn style.  However, unlike a lady on her way to marry a Bracken, this lady was a Bracken (descendant).  The khal who kidnaps her makes her either his concumbine or wife, they have issue which eventually results in Drogo.  Additionally, if this woman had a brother or brothers, they would likely be sold into slavery, which could explain how Varys and/or Serra (assuming one or both are Bittersteel/Daemon descendants), or rather their ancestor(s), ended up into slavery.

Not to my knowledge, but I freely admit there are any number of things I do not know. I had a similar "what if" when I wrote that sentence. We could have just stumbled upon the crackpot to end all crackpots... 

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49 minutes ago, Isobel Harper said:

Are there any theories out there concerning Drogo being a Blackfyre and/or Bittersteel descendant? 

I'm just spitballing here, but here's a possible scenario.  Bittersteel-descendant woman gets kidnapped ala Burned Men/Arryn style.  However, unlike a lady on her way to marry a Bracken, this lady was a Bracken (descendant).  The khal who kidnaps her makes her either his concumbine or wife, they have issue which eventually results in Drogo.  Additionally, if this woman had a brother or brothers, they would likely be sold into slavery, which could explain how Varys and/or Serra (assuming one or both are Bittersteel/Daemon descendants), or rather their ancestor(s), ended up into slavery.

My head is spinning. 

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16 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

My head is spinning. 

I think I'm onto something.

ETA: Illyrio, as you and many others have said, is possibly a Blackfyre descendant.  If my little theory is correct, he was joining to Daenerys to a Blackfyre.  After Drogo dies, (if, if your own theory is correct), he tries to marry her to another Blackfyre. 

In ADwD, Illyrio states something about a hero, a dragon with three heads.  He knows about the prophecy, I think.  Viserys and Aegon and... another were supposed to be involved.  This other was not Daenerys.  Illyrio half expected Daenerys to die in the Dothraki Sea.  Perhaps Drogo?  Aegon, Viserys, and Drogo were supposed to conquer Westeros together.

Now Viserys is dead, Daenerys having taken his place after she hatched dragons.  So we have Daenerys, Aegon, and ...?  Now that Drogo is dead, I'm not sure who would take his place.  Another Blackfyre/Bittersteel descendant?

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9 minutes ago, Isobel Harper said:

I think I'm onto something.

Well we know the Dothraki follow strength, so it's not out of the realm of possibility that a Dothraki with Westerosi blood could rise to become a khal, but I have trouble believing that someone born and raised as a slave to the Dothraki could achieve that. Remember from Dany's AGoT chapters how poorly the Dothraki view their slaves. Just think of the disgust when Dany suggests they take the Lhazarene women as wives. ("...does the horse breed with sheep?") Also, the bastard son of a slave woman likely wouldn't be taught to ride or fight, and we know how important those things are to gaining respect and ever hoping to rise to khal. ("Among the Dothraki, the man who does not ride was no man at all, the lowest of the low, without honor or pride."

IMHO, I think Dany's HotU vision is of Rhaego. Seeing the deaths of Rhaegar and Viserys coupled with the ghost of what could have been with her dead son fits better with "mother of dragons, daughter of death" than something to do with Bittersteel. 

I also don't think Bittersteel is still alive since as Eden-Mackenzie pointed out, his golden skull is still used to lead the GC into battle. Though there is one interesting thing we might want to consider for a Bittersteel appearance - someone using that skull to impersonate Bittersteel with a glamour. 

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2 hours ago, Isobel Harper said:

Are there any theories out there concerning Drogo being a Blackfyre and/or Bittersteel descendant? 

I think I've seen someone suggesting such a theory (something like Drogo is Bittersteel's grandson), although as far as I know that is pure speculation, as we don't have any factual evidence. Still it might be a possibility, especially considering some rather mysterious plot points.

Why did Drogo want to marry Daenerys in the first place? Was it prophecy-related?

Why did Illyrio broker this marriage? Just to appease the bloodthirsty khalasar? It is clear that Aegon was always the main champion of Varys and Illyrio, while they basically ignored Viserys and Daenerys for years. Why notice them at all? It seems they had some special plans for one or both of them. People of the Golden Company seem to believe that invading Westeros with Viserys and the Dothraki was the original plan. But where does this plan leave Aegon?

Also, what did Illyrio know about the eggs? Did he suspect they could be hatched? Did he intend Daenerys to hatch them, or was it a surprise for him? After the dragons are hatched, Illyrio is interested, of course, and wants Daenerys at his side, but what did he intend for her previously? He must have had some plans, because if he just wanted to get rid of the rival Targaryen branch, he could've done it much easier without any trouble with the marriage and without losing the valuable dragon eggs.

Those are questions I can't really answer, and the assumption that Drogo is a Blackfyre/Bittersteel descendant might make some of those questions easier. In this case, that marriage could have been a part of a larger plan to unite different Targaryen outcasts. But with no evidence, saying 'maybe' is about as far as we can go.

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12 minutes ago, sarah.jenice said:

IMHO, I think Dany's HotU vision is of Rhaego. Seeing the deaths of Rhaegar and Viserys coupled with the ghost of what could have been with her dead son fits better with "mother of dragons, daughter of death" than something to do with Bittersteel. 

But isn't it curious that it's the only example of a prophecy/vision in the books that turns out completely wrong? All the other prophecies show something that will eventually happen, and this one shows something that could happen, if not for some past events.

Of course, prophecies are very uncertain things, so maybe we shouldn't read too much into them, but, as Archmaester Marwyn once said on a similar subject, "Still..." :)

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29 minutes ago, sarah.jenice said:

Well we know the Dothraki follow strength, so it's not out of the realm of possibility that a Dothraki with Westerosi blood could rise to become a khal, but I have trouble believing that someone born and raised as a slave to the Dothraki could achieve that. Remember from Dany's AGoT chapters how poorly the Dothraki view their slaves. Just think of the disgust when Dany suggests they take the Lhazarene women as wives. ("...does the horse breed with sheep?") Also, the bastard son of a slave woman likely wouldn't be taught to ride or fight, and we know how important those things are to gaining respect and ever hoping to rise to khal. ("Among the Dothraki, the man who does not ride was no man at all, the lowest of the low, without honor or pride."

IMHO, I think Dany's HotU vision is of Rhaego. Seeing the deaths of Rhaegar and Viserys coupled with the ghost of what could have been with her dead son fits better with "mother of dragons, daughter of death" than something to do with Bittersteel. 

I also don't think Bittersteel is still alive since as Eden-Mackenzie pointed out, his golden skull is still used to lead the GC into battle. Though there is one interesting thing we might want to consider for a Bittersteel appearance - someone using that skull to impersonate Bittersteel with a glamour. 

I theorize that they captured a free female descendant of Bittersteel, not a slave.  If she was captured (say, when a khal attacked a city or an entourage traveling between cities) with a brother or brothers, however, they would have been sold into slavery.

Note this vision in the House of the Undying. 

Then phantoms shivered through the murk, images in indigo. Viserys screamed as the molten gold ran down his cheeks and filled his mouth. A tall lord with copper skin and silver-gold hair stood beneath the banner of a fiery stallion, a burning city behind him. Rubies flew like drops of blood from the chest of a dying prince, and he sank to his knees in the water and with his last breath murmured a woman's name. . . . mother of dragons, daughter of death . . .

These are the men that Daenerys name her dragons after.  Note "mother of dragons" at the end of the series.  The description of the tall lord sounds similar to Rhaego as he is in Daenerys' dream in AGoT.  However, we know that Rhaegal was named after Rhaegar, not Rhaego.

The Dothraki looked at her hatchlings uneasily. The largest of her three was shiny black, his scales slashed with streaks of vivid scarlet to match his wings and horns. "Khaleesi," Aggo murmured, "there sits Balerion, come again."

"It may be as you say, blood of my blood," Dany replied gravely, "but he shall have a new name for this new life. I would name them all for those the gods have taken. The green one shall be Rhaegal, for my valiant brother who died on the green banks of the Trident. The cream-and-gold I call Viserion. Viserys was cruel and weak and frightened, yet he was my brother still. His dragon will do what he could not."

Despite the similarity of Rhaego in Daenerys' dream and this vision in the House of the Undying, the tall lord appears to represent Drogo.

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2 minutes ago, Isobel Harper said:

I theorize that they captured a free female descendant of Bittersteel, not a slave.  If she was captured (say, when a khal attacked a city or an entourage traveling between cities) with a brother or brothers, however, they would have been sold into slavery.

Why couldn't she just have married a Dothraki, like Daenerys? I mean, we don't absolutely have to assume some capture or slavery in order for Drogo to have been Bittersteel's descendant.

And by the way, I've discovered another crackpottish name similarity like the titular one:

Khal Drogo's father was called Bharbo. If he was of Bittersteel blood, then he very probably was named after Aegor's mother, Barba Bracken. :D

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2 minutes ago, Gwindor said:

Why couldn't she just have married a Dothraki, like Daenerys? I mean, we don't absolutely have to assume some capture or slavery in order for Drogo to have been Bittersteel's descendant.

It's true, Bittersteel could've married one of his daughters to a khal.  Hell, he may have had his own plan of invading Westeros with the GC and Dotraki horselord, and Illyrio was only completing his plan, or rather attempting to.

4 minutes ago, Gwindor said:

Why couldn't she just have married a Dothraki, like Daenerys? I mean, we don't absolutely have to assume some capture or slavery in order for Drogo to have been Bittersteel's descendant.

And by the way, I've discovered another crackpottish name similarity like the titular one:

Khal Drogo's father was called Bharbo. If he was of Bittersteel blood, then he very probably was named after Aegor's mother, Barba Bracken. :D

Sweet catch.  :cheers:

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