You're Argos Sevenstar, invade The North

[Eden-Mackenzie]

The only way to conquer the North (which I'm reading as "unseat the Starks") is from within. The Wall cannot be breached from the north, however it is vulnerable from the south. Moat Cailin cannot be taken from the south, but there are ways around it, if you know where to look.

The amount of time and effort it would take to surreptitiously forge alliances and gather numbers large enough to defeat the Starks will likely take years, so unless by a happy accident you managed to start this process at the very beginning of a very long summer, winter is going to come, at which point your only two options will be hunker down and wait for the thaw or carry on despite the snows.

If you opt to wait out the winter in the North, you may soon find your new friends to be not so friendly after all, as resources become scarce no one will relish the extra mouths to feed. If you opt to carry on, you may soon find your new friends to be not so friendly after all, as they return home to their shelter and winter stores and leave you and your remaining frost-bitten appendages to fend for yourselves. As hypothermia sets in, you will feel the desire to remove your clothes and climb into a snow bank, and that is where they will find your body when the spring thaw comes. 

The North is the Starks' land. Even now, with all the Starks supposedly dead, the Boltons' hold is tenuous at best, and highly susceptible to being undermined from within. The Andals had no hope of conquering the North, at best they could have married into families with the intention of introducing their Andal customs, but from what we have seen, you assimilate to the North, the North does not assimilate to you.

[norwaywolf123]

On 1.3.2016 at 8:21 PM, Free Northman Reborn said:

The other kingdoms did not keep kicking the Andals asses. The Vale resisted them for a while, but were finally defeated. The Riverlands resisted them for a while, but were defeated. The Stormlands defeated them for a long time, but eventually were forced to intermarry with them. The Reach basically welcomed them in immediately and also intermarried with them to keep the peace. As far as I can recall, only the West continued to kick their asses, until they also finally decided to intermarry with them.

As for the nature of the battle of the Weeping Water. We do know a bit about it. We know that Argos launched the greatest invasion of the North by any Andal in history, as the World book states that his was the greatest Andal threat to the North. So we must assume that his army was large. And it was utterly crushed.

Maybe some noble houses or smallfolk in the south east of the North have Andal roots? The Manderlys allthough originally a firstmen house have blond hair which i thought was a Andal Trait?

[devilish]

The North need time to organize. Therefore keep your army as south as possible to avoid suspicions. Instead invest heavily on 2 big fleets, one dominating Sunset Sea and the other dominating the Shivering Sea. 

Once the fleets are built, raise a big army and march North. Do capture the neck but refrain from assaulting Moat Cailin. That will give the Starks time to move their army south, confident that Moat Cailin will save them. 

At this stage I would use my 2 fleets to ferry as many troops as possible at the other side of Moat Cailin. One would sail through the Fever River just like Victarion did. The other would land troops across the White knife’s riverbank. That will envelop the Northern army (+ most Northern nobility) into a trap with Moat Cailin surrounded from all three fronts. 
 The Hungry wolf and the Boltons are made to kneel however the Andals would be very wise not to piss the North any further. Hostages will of course be taken and the religion of the old gods will slowly need to be phased out. However the Andals should make sure to engage in a charm offensive by opening the trade with the North, deliver food supplies in Winter and offering great marriage deals between the Northern Lords and the Andal warlords. 

In this case the divide and conquer tactic will always help. Therefore it’s within Andal interest to encourage and were necessary re-introduce the concept of petty kings in the North. That will make these new ‘kings’ more dependent on the Andals (ie the only ones their status quo)
 

[cpg2016]

On 3/1/2016 at 10:41 AM, LionoftheWest said:

The other kingdoms were also united and kicked the shit out the Andals whereever the Andals showed up after the Vale. The reason is that logic was temporarily murdered by the Seven in the South and thus the Andals could be victorious despite losing at every turn, while logic remained in place in the North. That's the reason as to why it happened. Constantly having your ass kicked had the logical outcome in the North and the opposite outcome in the South. The sheer equivilance of the Andals invasion is the Blackfyres taking the Iron Throne thanks to Daemon and the twins dying and the Blackfyre supporters crushed on the Redgrass Field.

Actually this isn't true.  The Stormlands seem to have been a relatively weak polity, as were the Riverlands kingdoms.  The places with strong central governments (the Reach and the Rock) resisted Andal invasions and submitted to the obvious fact that assimilation was the only workable policy, since they couldn't stop the Andals who had already crossed the Narrow Sea and settled against their borders.  The North (and presumably Dorne) was the only place where there was both a bottleneck to stop settled Andals (Moat Cailin) and a strong central government to stop immigrating ones.

[Damon_Tor]

On 3/1/2016 at 6:57 AM, TimJames said:

You're Argos Sevenstar, and you have ambitions of establishing an Andal Kingdom in The North. How do insure that you stand triumphant in Winterfell?

Well they got beat in part because the Boltons and Starks made common cause against them: reverse that trend. Use the rivalry between the Boltons and the Starks to your advantage, form an alliance with the Boltons with the promise of casting down their old foes. Take the Wolf's Den and use it to secure landing at the mouth of the White Knife.

Make sure I use the Boltons as much as possible rather than spending my own men. Fortify the Wolf's Den and remain conservative. Use the naval superiority to harry and raid the Eastern coast. Get the Boltons to formally acknowledge my claim to the White Knife as an independent kingdom in exchange for using my ships (Andal naval superiority) and the White Knife to supply their forces. During this time I would begin to setup relationships with other potential allies, such as the exiled Blackwoods, who also have a score to settle with the Starks.

Politically, it's important that all of this seem like someone else's idea. The Boltons should be allowed to think of it as their war with the Starks.

I would attempt to make contact with the Wildlings, see if I can make contact with their leaders, attempt to bring them into the fight using my ships to transport them South so they can take control of one of the castles on the Wall so they can open the gates and let through the bulk of their forces. Dismantle as much of the Night's Watch as possible, open as many of those gates as we can, let through as many wildlings as we can manage.

With the wildlings raiding in the North and the Boltons campaigning for Winterfell, the Starks would be spread thin. During this time I would take Moat Cailin and allow the Blackwood forces up through the neck.

Again, the Blackwoods should be allowed to believe this is all their idea.

The goal at this point would be to surround Winterfell with my coalition: the Blackwoods in the woods to the West, the Boltons coming from the East, the Wildlings to the North and my ships controlling the White Knife and supplies from the coast (committing as few troops as possible to the actual combat)

We drive the Starks into their castle, and make siege.

At this point the goal is to weaken the fuck out of everyone, the Starks in particular, but the Boltons too. I want the Blackwoods and Boltons quarreling too, and the wildlings making a holy mess of things. I want everyone really tired of this war, and at the end of it, I get to decide when it stops because I hold the river, and the flow of supplies is up to me.

The end goal is to have the Starks and Boltons both acknowledge my claim to the White Knife as an independent kingdom. The Blackwoods would reclaim the Wolfswood (or a part of it anyway) and the Boltons would take concessions as well. The result is a strong foothold in a strong trading position with a much weakened House Stark.

The White Knife allows trade to all three, the Starks, Blackwoods and Boltons. With this powerful position, I begin the actual conquest: I begin to convert them.

[devilish]

34 minutes ago, Damon_Tor said:

Well they got beat in part because the Boltons and Starks made common cause against them: reverse that trend. Use the rivalry between the Boltons and the Starks to your advantage, form an alliance with the Boltons with the promise of casting down their old foes. Take the Wolf's Den and use it to secure landing at the mouth of the White Knife.

Make sure I use the Boltons as much as possible rather than spending my own men. Fortify the Wolf's Den and remain conservative. Use the naval superiority to harry and raid the Eastern coast. Get the Boltons to formally acknowledge my claim to the White Knife as an independent kingdom in exchange for using my ships (Andal naval superiority) and the White Knife to supply their forces. During this time I would begin to setup relationships with other potential allies, such as the exiled Blackwoods, who also have a score to settle with the Starks.

Politically, it's important that all of this seem like someone else's idea. The Boltons should be allowed to think of it as their war with the Starks.

I would attempt to make contact with the Wildlings, see if I can make contact with their leaders, attempt to bring them into the fight using my ships to transport them South so they can take control of one of the castles on the Wall so they can open the gates and let through the bulk of their forces. Dismantle as much of the Night's Watch as possible, open as many of those gates as we can, let through as many wildlings as we can manage.

With the wildlings raiding in the North and the Boltons campaigning for Winterfell, the Starks would be spread thin. During this time I would take Moat Cailin and allow the Blackwood forces up through the neck.

Again, the Blackwoods should be allowed to believe this is all their idea.

The goal at this point would be to surround Winterfell with my coalition: the Blackwoods in the woods to the West, the Boltons coming from the East, the Wildlings to the North and my ships controlling the White Knife and supplies from the coast (committing as few troops as possible to the actual combat)

We drive the Starks into their castle, and make siege.

At this point the goal is to weaken the fuck out of everyone, the Starks in particular, but the Boltons too. I want the Blackwoods and Boltons quarreling too, and the wildlings making a holy mess of things. I want everyone really tired of this war, and at the end of it, I get to decide when it stops because I hold the river, and the flow of supplies is up to me.

The end goal is to have the Starks and Boltons both acknowledge my claim to the White Knife as an independent kingdom. The Blackwoods would reclaim the Wolfswood (or a part of it anyway) and the Boltons would take concessions as well. The result is a strong foothold in a strong trading position with a much weakened House Stark.

The White Knife allows trade to all three, the Starks, Blackwoods and Boltons. With this powerful position, I begin the actual conquest: I begin to convert them.

Diplomacy can be effective. However, you need to be careful on its use.

a-    The Boltons are hardly masters in diplomacy. They are brutes who think that they can flay anybody into submission. Roose Bolton was one of the very few Boltons who actually came out with a plan that didn’t involve flaying and we all know that he was handled a very bad deal. 
b-    While there’s still rivalry up North, rest assured, that they will gang together against any invader or heretic ESPECIALLY if he dares involving the wildlings into it. 
In my opinion, the North’s biggest strength is also its biggest weakness. Moat Cailin is impregnable from land. However as an invader, you’re 100% sure that given the time to act, then the Northerners would put all their resources there. That makes them pretty predictable.

Id say 
a-    First build a big fleet which can carry an sizable army (including horses). 
b-    Wait for summer
c-    Invade the neck. That will alert the Northerners who would move the bulk of their army into Moat Cailin
d-    Move a sizable army (ie troops from the Vale) at the other end of Moat Cailin and trap the Northerners from all sides
e-    Wait.

Moat Cailin is a nightmare to be trapped into. Soon enough food will run short. Disease will kick in and the Northerners will start dying like flies. At that stage they will have to either abandon the fort and fight in an open battlefield against a superior force or else they will be forced to bend the knee. 
 

[John Doe]

Try attacking the Wolf's Den to establish a foothold here. From there, I can strangle the North by withholding foot supplies during winter, and during campains in the summe I can burn as many of their crops as I can get my hands on, even if besieging their castles doesn't work. And I'd try to broker an alliance with Boltons and Skagosi, factions who want to be intependent from the Starks. maybe even convert to the Old Gods, if my Andal friends  don't abandon me after doing that.

Maybe a king beyond the wall or the Ironborn would be willing to side with me against the Starks of Winterfell as well.

[Damon_Tor]

9 hours ago, devilish said:

The Boltons are hardly masters in diplomacy. They are brutes who think that they can flay anybody into submission.

I'm counting on it.

The key here is keeping myself looking like the lesser evil.

[devilish]

11 hours ago, Damon_Tor said:

I'm counting on it.

The key here is keeping myself looking like the lesser evil.

I wouldn't. There's a reason why the Boltons ended up bending the knee. They rule out of fear. That serves well against those who are near to their lands. However it will not work well with those who are well away from the Dreadfort and can raise an army themselves.  

The Andals lack dragons and their plan goes way deeper then forcing people to bend the knee. They want to change their religion, their culture and their way of managing their people. You need soft diplomacy here something that won't be achieved with some brute who loves flaying at your side

[Ivan33]

On 8.08.2017 г. at 9:41 PM, Damon_Tor said:

I'm counting on it.

The key here is keeping myself looking like the lesser evil.

Easier said than done,imagine you are the lord/king ruling the dreadfort around that time and here comes some "great"conqueror that's afraid of winterfell and the stark the same stark your grandfather's father made cloaks out of their skin and worse yet he offers you nothing.  Change your religion,fight my war for me and when we win i'll be king of the north and you'll be something(yet to figure it out)  And by this point the starks control everything but the dreadfort lands or pretty much that and are to soon build the wolf's den and Theon Stark might've had friendlier relationship with the ruling king/lord than many before them.  Best thing is to play double game or even tripple game convince Sevenstar you are with him and turn him over and anyone else  with him to the starks.

And that assuming the northerner can get pass his pride and even think of the andals as worthy of listening.

[Damon_Tor]

4 hours ago, Ivan33 said:

and worse yet he offers you nothing.

The major advantage the Andals had over the first man was ships. With Andal shipwrights the white knife would be a viable avenue for a supply line, far more efficient than carriages over land, and one that's basically unassailable to boot. That's far from nothing, that's the edge the Boltons need. And the best part about being the guy running the supplies is you aren't anybody's badguy.