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THE BARDS OF WESTEROS CAN SEE THE FUTURE


SeethemFly

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Well, not quite!

This may have been discussed many times, but I am always interested how songs that appear in ASOIAF can foreshadow certain events or even be symbolic of a character/situation/theme. I just thought I'd post here all the ones I'd heard, and if anyone else has any insight. I think the songs can mean several things, so I don't think there is necessarily a right answer! Some ideas are my own, others I remember reading on the forum. I'm not going to cover the 'Rains of Castamere' because the meaning seems to be about the Lannister's reputation after the Reyne's rebellion, but if anyone has any other ideas let me know.

The Dornishman's Wife

A song of unknown origin about a man who slept with the wife of a Dornishman. Although he died of wounds after duelling the Dornishman, he does not regret it for he's "tasted the Dornishman's wife". 

The Dornishman's Wife seems to be highlighting the theme of a person being punished for doing something they are not meant to do. The fact that Jon Snow hears it could point to the fact that it is of Northern origin, or that it is somehow related to Jon. Dorne is in the extreme south of Westeros, and this location could be used by the narrator to show a place or person that is at the extremes or in some way exotic. If this is of Northern origin, this forbidden exotic place could be seen to be the land beyond the Wall, the geographical opposite to Dorne. What role do the Dornishman and his wife therefore play?

  • The Dornishman's wife could be seen as a woman from this "other" place, particularly a wildling. It could be referring to Jon and Ygritte's relationship, or Sam and Gilly, as both suffer in some way for pursuing these relationships. The Dornishman himself is therefore a wildling man, and the subsequent duel could be referring to the wildling practice of "stealing" women.
  • Alternatively, the wife could be an Other and this could be yet another retelling of the Night's King story, albeit in a more subtle way, with the forbidden woman being the Night King's wife. This is slightly undermined by the wife being described as "warmer than spring". The Dornishman therefore becomes the Brothers of the Nights Watch, a point perhaps reinforced by the Dornishman's sword being made of "black steel".
  • Who is the central character? It has been noted that the central character could be a member of the Night's Watch who had some sort of relationship with a wildling woman (like Jon and Ygritte). Once he is dying of his wounds, it is noted "his brothers knelt by him and prayed him a prayer". This does not have to be a biological brother, but a sworn brother.
  • If the central character is a member of the Night's Watch, could this therefore be foreshadowing Jon's death at the hands of his sworn brothers due to his fraternising with the wildlings, especially his relationship with Ygritte, 'the Dornishman's wife'? Are there any examples of her being described in ways similar to the Dornishman's wife? 
  • Valar morghulis - The Dornishman's Wife ends with the central character saying that his death does not matter for "all men must die". This is the same as the High Valyrian phrase "Valar morghulis". Is it a direct translation? Or just a coincidence? Does this song therefore have some link to the goings on in Essos, particularly the House of Black and White, who could possibly be linked to the Dornishman's 'black steel' sword? Could this "Valar morghulis" similarity link back once again to the Night's Watch, as the normal response is "Valar dohaeris" - all men must serve - an important aspect of the Night's Watch. Did the central character 'die' for failing to 'serve' (perhaps echoing Jon Snow's fate).

The Last of the Giants

A song sung by the freefolk where a giant sings about all the terrible things mankind has done to him and his kind.

Although this at first could literally a song about the plight of the giants (of whom there are only a few hundred left), there are ways in which it could be about other groups North of the Wall. The Wildling origin of this song points to the fact that it may have something to do with events beyond the Wall thousands of years ago rather than anything else in Westeros.

  • The "giants" are the Wildlings. Among the giants complaints are several things that the Wildlings would dislike about the Night's Watch and the rest of mankind. This includes how the smallfolk have "built a great wall through [his] valley". This perhaps relates directly to the Wall and how the Wildlings resent the Wall's building. It is interesting also that the Wall's building is attributed to men and not any magic users considering it's size and magical properties. A little undermined by the fact that the giant is the "last" of the giants, when it seems there are lots of Wildling's left.
  • The "giants" are the Others or wights. This mainly relates to the idea that the giant is the "last" of his kind - how many Others actually are there? Also, the giant makes two references to fire, something the Others are known not to like! Firstly, the giant mentions that humans "burn their great fires" in their halls, but later mentions how he is hunted with "torches by night". Torches (fire) are one of the few effective ways to kill wights, and the Others generally only appear in the dark and cold hence the "night". Others would also not be great fans of the Wall. Also (this may be a little crackpot) the giant poses the song as a warning, saying "so learn well the words of my song/ For when I am gone the singing will fade and the silence shall last long and long"; perhaps this "song" is a memory aid for the hypothetical long ago pack between the Others and Humankind which led to the Wall's construction. It serves as a reminder to humans not to break the pact, or the Others will return and "the silence shall last long and long".
  • The "giants" are the Children of the Forest. The reference to the "song" and how the "singing will fade" could relate to the Children's exile to the far north and thus the exile of their songs, particularly their "song of the earth" that Bran is told about. In this context, the pact here becomes the Pact of the Isle of Faces, the Pact between Children and Humans which saw the forests being given to the Children and the open lands to the humans. The songs lament of the destruction of Westeros' natural habitat by human hand could therefore be highlighting the priorities of the Children and maybe how humans are breaking the pact by destroying nature with their technology.

The Bear and the Maiden Fair

A humorous song popular throughout Westeros that tells the story of a maiden who goes to a fair, but is rescued by a bear instead of the prince she was expecting. The maid and the bear end up dancing together at the end.

This one seems to me to be evoking the "Beauty and the Beast" theme present in so many character arcs, and how the Beauty can overcome the Beast's ugliness and see what is on the inside. The fact that the song seems popular around Westeros perhaps relates it to all characters, and not just characters from particular regions. Characters and situations it relates to particularly include:

  • Jaime and Brienne
    • This is perhaps the most obvious example of the "Beauty and the Beast" theme in action, but here it is subverted: Jaime and Brienne are both the Beauty and the Beast. While Jaime is physically beautiful and Brienne ugly, on the inside Brienne is good and honourable whereas Jaime is cynical and has often done bad things. Here, the Maid and the Bear "dancing" together can perhaps be symbolic of their growing (romantic) relationship.
    • Jaime and Brienne also literally fought a bear, and in this instance were both the maiden facing the bear. At the same time, Jaime also becomes the bear by being the unexpected person to save Brienne. This idea continues with Brienne replacing Renly with Jaime in her mind = although she expects Renly "the prince" to save her, it is instead Jaime.
  • The Hound and Sansa
    • Here, the Hound is the Bear and Sansa the maid, with the Hound acting as the unexpected saviour (Bear) for Sansa (Maid) after preventing her from killing Joffrey, the riot in King's Landing and offering to take her away after the Battle of the Blackwater. The UnKiss and Sansa's subsequent thoughts of Sandor add a romantic slant to this relationship.
  • Jorah and Daenerys
    • Jorah is, in more ways than one, a bear. Physically, he is often described as being "hairy", the main descriptor used in the song about the bear. He is also of House Mormont, whose sigil is a bear. 
    • This relationship follows the Hound and Sansa's one quite closely, although more emphasis is placed on the romantic intentions of the bear towards the maid. In this example, the love is not reciprocated.

The Seasons of My Love

(Presumably a missing "spring" verse)

I loved a maid as fair as summer, with sunlight in her hair.

I loved a maid as red as autumn, with sunset in her hair.

I loved a maid as white as winter, with moonglow in her hair.

'The Seasons of My Love' is a sad Myrish song with three known verses, of which the order is unknown. Tyrion relates that Tysha used to sing this song.

The Seasons of My Love is less transparent than the 'Bear and the Maiden Fair', but seems to relate to the passing of the seasons and the descent into winter.

  • As Tyrion gives us the most information about this song, perhaps it is something to do with his love life, but how Tysha and Shae would fit into this is not clear.
  • Is this related to the story of the Night's King with the "maid as white as winter with moonglow in her hair" being his Other wife? The Other wife is described as having "skin as white as the moon". What role the "summer" and "autumn" maid's play in this interpretation is unclear.
  • The song's Myrish origin may give us a clue to the meaning of the song - Cersei's future through her link to Taena of Myr?
  • That it relates to Jon's love life with Ygritte being the autumn maid and Val the winter maid. Who the spring and summer maids could be I don't know, but the order in which the narrator fell in love with the maids is unknown, and perhaps the order of their relationship with Jon is therefore unclear. I'm unsure whether the song's Myrish origin could be related to Jon.

Other Songs

Many of these do not have lyrics, but their subject matter may help to highlight important themes or foreshadow events.

  • Brave Danny Flint = about a girl who disguises herself as a member of the Night's Watch, but then is raped and murdered
    • Highlights the dangers of being a woman in a man's world, particularly the threat to women who cross into 'masculine' spheres = ie. Arya, Brienne
    • Danny's surname Flint could further connect this song to Arya, as Ned Stark's maternal grandmother was Arya Flint of House Flint of the mountains.
  • The Dance of Dragons = A song about the original Dance of Dragons
    • Foreshadowing the upcoming conflict between Daenerys and (f)Aegon.
  • The Rat Cook
    • Foreshadows "Frey Pie"
  • Jenny's song
    • Evidence that the Ghost of High Heart knew Jenny of Oldstones and was at Summerhall.

If anyone else has any ideas, please post below!

 

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You know its true because the topic title is in ALL CAPS, haha.

Ofcourse the songs have meanings or themes but they are so broad and universal that they apply to many instances (this happens to be a factor that makes songs popular) So, sure they apply to some of the examples you mentioned but that will be the case for most popular songs and these songs are mentioned in the story because they are popular in story.

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18 minutes ago, RobOsevens said:

You know its true because the topic title is in ALL CAPS, haha.

Ofcourse the songs have meanings or themes but they are so broad and universal that they apply to many instances (this happens to be a factor that makes songs popular) So, sure they apply to some of the examples you mentioned but that will be the case for most popular songs and these songs are mentioned in the story because they are popular in story.

I AGREE (hahaha)

I like that the songs are all of these things and none of them at the same time, as they become mimetic of the characters and circumstance and the latter of the former. I therefore think it could be interesting to see in what ways they influence one another, and come up with as many examples as possible.

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Good catches! @SeethemFly
Some thoughts on the Dornishman’s wife: Oddly, the song pops into Jon’s mind on a few occasions. During the battle against the wildlings, a barrel of oil is thrown off the Wall and bursts into flames below, burning and scattering the enemy. Jon then relates the burning barrel to the Dornishman’s presumably fiery wife:

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How do you like that music, Mance? How do you like the taste of the Dornishman’s wife?

 

Now, I know someone who would relate this to the breaking of the moon and that’s probably what the scene symbolizes.

Jon also finds himself remembering the Dornishman’s wife while the false Mance is burning on Mel’s pyre. His eyes turn to Val who’s standing as still as if carved of salt. He then thinks of Ygritte and Gilly as well. All three women are connected to Lyanna in some way. Jon dreams of Gilly weeping tears of blood, Val stands there like a statue – later she wears a weirwood brooch reminiscent of the KotLT and Jon once wishes he could give Ygritte a flower from the glass gardens of Winterfell. Val also comes across as a ‘Night’s Queen’ when she returns from her mission all dressed in white bearskin clothing.

 

While Mance is still glamoured as Rattleshirt, Mel warns him that not wearing the armour could blow his cover. He responds:

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“I’ve sung my songs, fought my battles, drunk summer wine, tasted the Dornishman’s wife. A man should die the way he’s lived. For me that’s steel in hand.”

 

Mance loved women and probably tasted a few in his time. We don’t know if he met Dalla north or south of the Wall, neither do we know if he stole her and if so, if she had been someone else’s wife (or betrothed) prior to that.  But with the above connotations regarding Lyanna, perhaps she was indeed promised to or married to someone else. Maybe.

Later, Mance goes on a mission to Winterfell to free ‘Arya’. He goes in the guise of Abel the Bard and sings his own version of the Dornishman’s Wife, changing the lyrics to the Northman’s Daughter. The rest of the lyrics aren’t mentioned but this change suggests the Northman’s daughter became a Dornishman’s wife.
Theon is apprehensive about the reaction of the Boltons but both father and son seem to find the song amusing. The Dornishman’s blade, with its bite a sharp as a leech could be a reference to Roose.

 

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The brothers who kneel to say a prayer remind me of Coldhands who kneels to bless his elk before killing it. I would agree that the brothers suggest the NW.

 

There are several pointers to a Rhaegar/Lyanna scenario, again enforced by Mance who plays the role of Bael the Bard stealing a ‘Stark daughter’. That said, I think the song is a reference to past events lost to history which may be decipherable by giving the song and circumstances more thought.

 

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19 hours ago, Evolett said:

Good catches! @SeethemFly
Some thoughts on the Dornishman’s wife: Oddly, the song pops into Jon’s mind on a few occasions. During the battle against the wildlings, a barrel of oil is thrown off the Wall and bursts into flames below, burning and scattering the enemy. Jon then relates the burning barrel to the Dornishman’s presumably fiery wife:

 

Now, I know someone who would relate this to the breaking of the moon and that’s probably what the scene symbolizes.

Jon also finds himself remembering the Dornishman’s wife while the false Mance is burning on Mel’s pyre. His eyes turn to Val who’s standing as still as if carved of salt. He then thinks of Ygritte and Gilly as well. All three women are connected to Lyanna in some way. Jon dreams of Gilly weeping tears of blood, Val stands there like a statue – later she wears a weirwood brooch reminiscent of the KotLT and Jon once wishes he could give Ygritte a flower from the glass gardens of Winterfell. Val also comes across as a ‘Night’s Queen’ when she returns from her mission all dressed in white bearskin clothing.

 

While Mance is still glamoured as Rattleshirt, Mel warns him that not wearing the armour could blow his cover. He responds:

 

Mance loved women and probably tasted a few in his time. We don’t know if he met Dalla north or south of the Wall, neither do we know if he stole her and if so, if she had been someone else’s wife (or betrothed) prior to that.  But with the above connotations regarding Lyanna, perhaps she was indeed promised to or married to someone else. Maybe.

Later, Mance goes on a mission to Winterfell to free ‘Arya’. He goes in the guise of Abel the Bard and sings his own version of the Dornishman’s Wife, changing the lyrics to the Northman’s Daughter. The rest of the lyrics aren’t mentioned but this change suggests the Northman’s daughter became a Dornishman’s wife.
Theon is apprehensive about the reaction of the Boltons but both father and son seem to find the song amusing. The Dornishman’s blade, with its bite a sharp as a leech could be a reference to Roose.

 

 

There are several pointers to a Rhaegar/Lyanna scenario, again enforced by Mance who plays the role of Bael the Bard stealing a ‘Stark daughter’. That said, I think the song is a reference to past events lost to history which may be decipherable by giving the song and circumstances more thought.

 

Interesting points! And thanks for the quotes! A lot of what I was coming up with was not really backed up by much text-wise.

I've read some of LucifermeansLightbringer theories, and I think it is a very persuasive, subtle theory. So, I definitely agree in that the Dornishman's Wife in particular could in relate to the Long Night/The Night's King, but also to more recent events.

The quote you highlighted -  "I've sung my songs, fought my battles, drunk summer wine, tasted the Dornishman's wife" - really struck me. I think the Dornishman's wife is not a literal person in the time frame of the books; so while she may be evocative of Dalla (who seems to be a wildling as she is Val's sister, suggesting she's from North of the Wall, and is therefore Mance's wife by his "stealing" of her), or of Lyanna (which I think is a great catch) while once she may have been inspired by the Night's King's wife , in 300 AC there is no present Dornishman's wife. Mance's uses 'The Dornishman's Wife' as a colloquial by-word for 'forbidden woman' in the sense that he his generally saying he's been with women he's not meant to have been with, like how someone may say (a little exuberantly) they 'jousted with fortune'. The Dornishman's Wife is therefore any forbidden woman whether that be Ygritte, Lyanna, the Night's King's Other wife.

I thought Mance's use of 'summer wine' in conjunction with the 'Dornishman's Wife' was interesting. I assume you can only drink summer wine during the summer (unless it's from the Summer Isles), and therefore it puts a timeline to Mance's interaction with the Dornishman's Wife, ie. during the summer. In this context, the Dornishman's wife could literally be summer. Think, "her kisses were warmer than spring" (which is very on the nose if this is the case) and how she was "fair as the sun". In contrast the Dornishman's sword is "cold", and causes the central character to be surrounded by "darkness". Maybe a summer/life vs death/winter comparison is being made here?

Your Lyanna catch is very good catch I think. While at first glance Lyanna is not similar to the Dornishman's wife, she was neither fair nor associated with warmth - she was a Stark of the Winterfell and associated with ice and blue roses. However, think back to Robert's regrets over Lyanna's burial place - "She should be on a hill somewhere, under a fruit tree, with the sun and the clouds above her". This line is very evocative of the Dornishman's wife: the fruit tree perhaps relates to how the Dornishman's wife's voice was "sweet as a peach" and how she was "fair as the sun". More tenuously, it could even be connected to Rhaegar as when the central character was dying he "smiled and he laughed and he sung" as Rhaegar has been noted to be very musical.

Strangely, due to his marriage to Elia Martell, Rhaegar was literally a Dornishwoman's husband, so in essence he is the "Dornishman's Wife" and Lyanna is the central character. This could explain the Dornishman's Wife connections to heat = as a Targaryen, Rhaegar is connected to fire. However, instead of being killed by her lover's wife, Lyanna (if R+L=J is true) was killed by the fruit of her relationship with Rhaegar (the metaphorical Dornishman's wife) - by giving birth to their son, Jon. This comparison therefore becomes fascinating when seeing that as the the central character was dying, his "brothers knelt by him and prayed him a prayer". If the central character is Lyanna, we know her brother literally was by her as she died and probably prayed her a prayer! This Rhaegar = Dornishman's Wife, Lyanna = Central Character, Ned = the brother analogy perhaps also connects what you said about Jon repeatedly thinking of this song.

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1 hour ago, SeethemFly said:

Your Lyanna catch is very good catch I think. While at first glance Lyanna is not similar to the Dornishman's wife, she was neither fair nor associated with warmth - she was a Stark of the Winterfell and associated with ice and blue roses. However, think back to Robert's regrets over Lyanna's burial place - "She should be on a hill somewhere, under a fruit tree, with the sun and the clouds above her". This line is very evocative of the Dornishman's wife: the fruit tree perhaps relates to how the Dornishman's wife's voice was "sweet as a peach" and how she was "fair as the sun". More tenuously, it could even be connected to Rhaegar as when the central character was dying he "smiled and he laughed and he sung" as Rhaegar has been noted to be very musical.

Makes a lot of sense. I like your take on the summer wine and the connection to the fruit tree and Robert's regrets. I'm thinking summer wine could refer to a white wine which is normally yellowish in colour. That and 'fair as the sun' also remind me of Tyrion's song: " I loved a maid as fair as summer, with sunlight in her hair. " The peach kind of sticks out to me, recalling Renly who talks about the sweetness of life in terms of a peach;

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A man should never refuse to taste a peach. He may never get the chance again. Life is short, Stannis. Remember what the Starks say. Winter is coming. ACOK, Catelyn III

This really reflects what's going on in the song with Renly tasting the peach (Dornishman's wife) here. The same theme is expressed  - the chance to taste the peach evokes the rare opportunity of tasting the dornishman's wife and he relates it to the Starks. Recall also odd that scene between him and Ned, when he presents Ned with a painting of Margaery and asks whether Ned thinks she looks like Lyanna. Margaery comes from the house of roses, Lyanna is a blue winter rose. Well, I personally believe that Robert was quite right and that Lyanna had intrinsic fiery properties in addition to her ice heritage and the death and darkness imagery of the crypts. All we are seeing here confirms that. Perhaps you'ld like to have a look at my analysis of frozen fire and the significance of blue winter roses in this regard. 

I've also been thinking about the Northman's daughter becoming the Dornishman's wife. I want to move away from the Rhaegar/Lyanna connotations a bit in this scenario. Consider the spearwives of wildling tradition and how they relate to the theme of ice and fire. Spearwives of the icy north are in essence fiery women stolen by potential husbands. They are also quite 'Dornish' in character - independent, 'unbowed' women who pick up the spear to take on a warrior role in much the same way Dornish women do. The Dornish sun/spear sigil perhaps clarifies the symbolism - due to the association with Nymeria and the Rhoynar, we can assume the sun plays a female role which brings us back to the Dornishman's wife's 'warm' nature and "a maid as fair as summer, with sunlight in her hair." We have a male spear piercing the sun, evocative of the central character 'tasting' the Dornishman's sunny wife (as well as of the Dornishman himself in this role). So if we put aside sex symbolism for a moment, perhaps we can say the spear kills the sun or drains its warmth. This brings me to the NK's corpse bride (the Northman's daughter). She was pale, corpselike; in analogy to the dornish 'spearwife' who is speared, the NK drains her warmth, her golden sunlight, he licks the honey off her hair (golden crown = golden hair = sunlight = summerwine, lol) and leaves her with his seed, cold and darkness (represented by the shadow). She becomes " a maid as white as winter, with moonglow in her hair. " and is only able to bear sons cold as ice. I'm writing this on the fly, with ideas coming as I go along but let's spin this further. For one, I've always speculated what the NK could have taken from his corpse bride in return for giving her his seed and shadow. Perhaps he did take her warmth. The implication is that the Northman's daughter was originally possessed of a magical inner fire (as Dany is). It was robbed from her, leaving her cold. It turned her into a "speared wife", a Dornish wife. Lyanna is someone who regained part of this ancient inheritance, represented by the blue winter roses - which I believe are a form of 'frozen fire'. And now to what I found out just today: It occurred to me to check up on the gillyflower after which Gilly was named. I had never heard of it and thought it an invention by Martin. But it turns out to be one of several scented flowering plants such as the carnation and the wallflower. So I looked up wallflower and burst out laughing ... I'll quote directly from the Encyclopedia Britannica online:

Wallflower (genus Erysimum), genus of about 180 species of plants belonging to the mustard family (Brassicaceae), so named for their habit of growing from chinks in walls. (source)

western wallflower

I haven't studied Gilly in any great depth - looks like it's high time we did. 

 

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Nice job everyone!  Well written analysis, OP - you are detail oriented and authenticate assertions with textual clues from the novels.

I am not immersed in the ballads, but I have written extensively about Martin's use of sounds as background to events presently occurring, as unifying devices that link POVs with one another and novels with one another, and as  "forces" that draw forth emotional responses from those who listen and those who sing or play instruments.

In a series entitled "A Song of Ice and Fire", readers might anticipate the inclusion of music and lyrics

Anyway, I enjoyed the read, and I wish I had more to offer to build upon your fine ideas!

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21 hours ago, Evolett said:

 

Makes a lot of sense. I like your take on the summer wine and the connection to the fruit tree and Robert's regrets. I'm thinking summer wine could refer to a white wine which is normally yellowish in colour. That and 'fair as the sun' also remind me of Tyrion's song: " I loved a maid as fair as summer, with sunlight in her hair. " The peach kind of sticks out to me, recalling Renly who talks about the sweetness of life in terms of a peach;

This really reflects what's going on in the song with Renly tasting the peach (Dornishman's wife) here. The same theme is expressed  - the chance to taste the peach evokes the rare opportunity of tasting the dornishman's wife and he relates it to the Starks. Recall also odd that scene between him and Ned, when he presents Ned with a painting of Margaery and asks whether Ned thinks she looks like Lyanna. Margaery comes from the house of roses, Lyanna is a blue winter rose. Well, I personally believe that Robert was quite right and that Lyanna had intrinsic fiery properties in addition to her ice heritage and the death and darkness imagery of the crypts. All we are seeing here confirms that. Perhaps you'ld like to have a look at my analysis of frozen fire and the significance of blue winter roses in this regard. 

I've also been thinking about the Northman's daughter becoming the Dornishman's wife. I want to move away from the Rhaegar/Lyanna connotations a bit in this scenario. Consider the spearwives of wildling tradition and how they relate to the theme of ice and fire. Spearwives of the icy north are in essence fiery women stolen by potential husbands. They are also quite 'Dornish' in character - independent, 'unbowed' women who pick up the spear to take on a warrior role in much the same way Dornish women do. The Dornish sun/spear sigil perhaps clarifies the symbolism - due to the association with Nymeria and the Rhoynar, we can assume the sun plays a female role which brings us back to the Dornishman's wife's 'warm' nature and "a maid as fair as summer, with sunlight in her hair." We have a male spear piercing the sun, evocative of the central character 'tasting' the Dornishman's sunny wife (as well as of the Dornishman himself in this role). So if we put aside sex symbolism for a moment, perhaps we can say the spear kills the sun or drains its warmth. This brings me to the NK's corpse bride (the Northman's daughter). She was pale, corpselike; in analogy to the dornish 'spearwife' who is speared, the NK drains her warmth, her golden sunlight, he licks the honey off her hair (golden crown = golden hair = sunlight = summerwine, lol) and leaves her with his seed, cold and darkness (represented by the shadow). She becomes " a maid as white as winter, with moonglow in her hair. " and is only able to bear sons cold as ice. I'm writing this on the fly, with ideas coming as I go along but let's spin this further. For one, I've always speculated what the NK could have taken from his corpse bride in return for giving her his seed and shadow. Perhaps he did take her warmth. The implication is that the Northman's daughter was originally possessed of a magical inner fire (as Dany is). It was robbed from her, leaving her cold. It turned her into a "speared wife", a Dornish wife. Lyanna is someone who regained part of this ancient inheritance, represented by the blue winter roses - which I believe are a form of 'frozen fire'. And now to what I found out just today: It occurred to me to check up on the gillyflower after which Gilly was named. I had never heard of it and thought it an invention by Martin. But it turns out to be one of several scented flowering plants such as the carnation and the wallflower. So I looked up wallflower and burst out laughing ... I'll quote directly from the Encyclopedia Britannica online:

Wallflower (genus Erysimum), genus of about 180 species of plants belonging to the mustard family (Brassicaceae), so named for their habit of growing from chinks in walls. (source)

western wallflower

I haven't studied Gilly in any great depth - looks like it's high time we did. 

 

Mmm, I really like the idea of Lyanna as frozen fire, and your interpretation of Lyanna becoming a "speared wife". I suppose her relationship with Rhaeger did take something from her - he wasn't the only one that died, and in the end her son could never be recognised as hers.

Thinking about the Dornishman's wife be rewritten as the Northman's Daughter, I also thought it would be interesting to look at the other songs the Mance sung at the wedding to highlight more Dornishman's wife = 'fire' women = wildlings = Lyanna connections. Firstly, it must be noted that at this stage Mance has disguised himself as "Abel", in itself an anagram of Bael. While this is probably just relating to the fact that he has snuck into Winterfell under everyone's notice with the intention of stealing "Fake Arya", it also adds some extra dimensions to our interpretation of the 'Dornishman's Wife'. In becoming Abel/Bael, when singing the 'Dornishman's Wife' Mance becomes the central character, in Winterfell to steal away False Arya. But then at the same time, he is also becoming any of the other people who have tried to "steal" women from Winterfell, and almost a quasi-Rhaegar. That could be an interesting thought for any theorists who literally think Mance = Rhaegar.

The other songs that Mance sung are as follows:

  • Two Hearts that Beat as One
    • We know none of the lyrics, but it seems to be a generic love song.
    • The only other time it has been sung is at the marriage between Ambrose Butterwell and Lady Frey in 'The Mystery Night'. Was this a loving marriage? Or a marriage of convenience?
  • Fair Maids of Summer
    • Although we have no other example of it being performed, or any of its lyrics, the "Fair Maids of Summer" links back to the 'Dornishman's Wife' and all the other summer connections we have made.
  • The Night that Ended
    • A song about when the Night's Watch met the Others at the Battle of the Dawn. Links back to our Night's King/ Other Wife links and even the line 'his brother's knelt by him and prayed him a prayer'. If we are arguing that 'The Dornishman's Wife' is Lyanna, this could perhaps also be evocative of Jon's future role in the Battle for the Dawn II.
  • Brave Danny Flint
    • A song about a woman who joined the Night's Watch but was subsequently raped and murdered. Could be connected to the previous 'Night's Watch' theme found in 'The Night that Ended' and 'Iron Lances', but Danny Flint could also be an example of the 'wild' women we have been discussing. Also, the surname 'Flint' is interesting considering your ideas about Lyanna's fire ancestry.
  • The Rat Cook
    • About the Rat Cook. Relates to 'Frey Pie'. Interestingly, Wyman Manderly asks for this song therefore interrupting Mance's intended programme, and possibly the message he is trying to deliver with the songs.
  • The Dornishman's Wife
    • Here, Mance sings the adapted 'Northman's Daughter. Perhaps it's just about the intended stealing of Fake Arya, but it's proximity to 'The Night that Ended' and 'Brave Danny Flint' perhaps connects it back to Jon and Lyanna.
  • "Marching Song"
    • Ramsay then asks Mance to sing a song about Stannis trudging through the snow. Another interjection, so probably doesn't have anything to do with Mance's message.
  • Iron Lances
    • This is apparently a "rousing" song about which little is known. It is sung on several occasions. Interestingly, if Ramsay hadn't interrupted Mance's programme, this would have come after the Dornishman's Wife (I think - I'm relating this to an online order I've found!) and is therefore perhaps linked to the central character's death. 
  • The Winter Maid
    • A supposedly sad song is now sung. It's apparently a song from the North, it only occuring in the North. How old is it? Could it directly be about Lyanna or another 'wild' woman? The fact it's sad might suggest a connection to Lyanna.
  • The Queen Took off her Sandal, the King took off his Crown/Bear and the Maiden Fair
    • Lady Dustin then asks for something more jolly. Mance sings these two songs. It also suggests it not anything to do with Mance's message.
  • The Maids that Bloom at Spring
    • Last song that Mance sings. The lyrics are not known, but maybe it has something to do with the other 'sun' connections we've made. Interestingly, it is known to be performed at one other occasion, by Tom of Sevenstreams at the Peach (an inn and brothel in the Stoney Sept). Again links back to the idea of the forbidden fruit/the Dornishman's wife.

It's really interesting that all these songs (apart from the one's demanded by the wedding's guests, and maybe Iron Lances) had something to do with Wild women/ the Night's Watch/ Jon/ Lyanna/ Forbidden Fruit. It could just be linked to Mance's attempt to kidnap Fake Arya, but it could also add an extra layer of subtext. Might have to go look at Gilly now!

4 hours ago, evita mgfs said:

Nice job everyone!  Well written analysis, OP - you are detail oriented and authenticate assertions with textual clues from the novels.

I am not immersed in the ballads, but I have written extensively about Martin's use of sounds as background to events presently occurring, as unifying devices that link POVs with one another and novels with one another, and as  "forces" that draw forth emotional responses from those who listen and those who sing or play instruments.

In a series entitled "A Song of Ice and Fire", readers might anticipate the inclusion of music and lyrics

Anyway, I enjoyed the read, and I wish I had more to offer to build upon your fine ideas!

Thank you so much! It's good to know that people see value in our work!

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2 hours ago, SeethemFly said:

Mmm, I really like the idea of Lyanna as frozen fire, and your interpretation of Lyanna becoming a "speared wife". I suppose her relationship with Rhaeger did take something from her - he wasn't the only one that died, and in the end her son could never be recognised as hers.

Thinking about the Dornishman's wife be rewritten as the Northman's Daughter, I also thought it would be interesting to look at the other songs the Mance sung at the wedding to highlight more Dornishman's wife = 'fire' women = wildlings = Lyanna connections...

I really appreciate these song lists you've compiled, thank you :) There are so many that it's easy to miss some of them and difficult to know where to start. I think they represent a continuoum, though the order is uncertain. I think the Dornishman's wife, the Rat Cook and Danny Flint form a unit that tells a story. Consider this scenario:

From what we've discovered about the Dornishman's wife, she may have been a Northman's daughter, was 'sunny' and perhaps had some intrinsic fiery property. Let's just say she was hot.

The Rat Cook: killed the Andal King's son (a prince) and served the cooked prince to his father. According to the tale, even though the Rat Cook had a right to vengeance, he was cursed only because he violated guest right. Let's forget the rest of the story for a moment and concentrate on the Rat Cook's right to vengeance because it suggests the cook had a very good reason for killing the prince and serving him up to his dad. It begs the question of what  the king or his son or both did to drive the Rat Cook to his actions? It must have been something really awful for the Cook to forsake taboos and kill the prince right under his roof. This is where the sad tale of Danny Flint comes in as a clue.

Could the King, Prince or both have raped the Rat Cook's daughter or wife? I can count several instances of maidens/women being raped, some of them in front of their helpless fathers or husbands. 

  • Roose raping Ramsay's mother with her husband looking on helplessly
  • Ramsay raping women, killing them, flaying them - father's and sons have no recourse to justice
  • The mountain raping an Inn-Keep's daughter with her father  looking on helplessly
  • The Mountain raping Elia, killing her and her child, with justice waiting for 17 years
  • Tysha being raped while Tyrion looks on and is forced to take the last turn
  • Lyanna supposedly raped by Rhaegar
  • The implication that Aerys had his way with Lady Joanna
  • Dothraki standard practice of raping women after a battle - Dany tries to break this cycle of violence against women. 

We know that the Lords of Westeros normally have to answer to no one in regards of their treatment of women. Aerys even violated his wife with impunity; the Kingsguard were not responsible for protecting Rhaella from her husband. There's even the 'Lord's right to the first night' that sanctifies such behaviour. That does not mean it's right. When we look at the list of songs and consider the story of Danny Flint, I imagine the Rat Cook suffered just such an abuse - his daughter or wife may indeed have been raped by his visitors. I suspect the culprit was the King himself. He/they may even have passed her on to the entire NW-garrison as suggested by Tysha's story and stated by the story of Dany Flint. Prince, King or no, the Rat Cook had his vengeance. 

So Dany Flint's story perhaps stands for the violated daughter/wife of the Rat Cook. Danny Flint then is the maiden or wife with the fiery characteristic; the Prince the central character in the Dornishman's wife song; The Rat Cook is the angry husband / father in the Dornishman's wife / Northman's daughter song scenario. 

I'll have to think about the rest of the songs in Mance's repetoire to make more connections.  

ETA - to extend this to the NK, the Andal KIng here represents the NK who steals Danny Flint's (spearwife, Northman's daughter / Dornishman's wife's sunny warmth). 

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2 minutes ago, Evolett said:

I really appreciate these song lists you've compiled, thank you :) There are so many that it's easy to miss some of them and difficult to know where to start. I think they represent a continuoum, though the order is uncertain. I think the Dornishman's wife, the Rat Cook and Danny Flint form a unit that tells a story. Consider this scenario:

From what we've discovered about the Dornishman's wife, she may have been a Northman's daughter, was 'sunny' and perhaps had some intrinsic fiery property. Let's just say she was hot.

The Rat Cook: killed the Andal King's son (a prince) and served the cooked prince to his father. According to the tale, even though the Rat Cook had a right to vengeance, he was cursed only because he violated guest right. Let's forget the rest of the story for a moment and concentrate on the Rat Cook's right to vengeance because it suggests the cook had a very good reason for killing the prince and serving him up to his dad. It begs the question of what  the king or his son or both did to drive the Rat Cook to his actions? It must have been something really awful for the Cook to forsake taboos and kill the prince right under his roof. This is where the sad tale of Danny Flint comes in as a clue.

Could the King, Prince or both have raped the Rat Cook's daughter or wife? I can count several instances of maidens/women being raped, some of them in front of their helpless fathers or husbands. 

  • Roose raping Ramsay's mother with her husband looking on helplessly
  • Ramsay raping women, killing them, flaying them - father's and sons have no recourse to justice
  • The mountain raping an Inn-Keep's daughter with her father  looking on helplessly
  • The Mountain raping Elia, killing her and her child, with justice waiting for 17 years
  • Tysha being raped while Tyrion looks on and is forced to take the last turn
  • Lyanna supposedly raped by Rhaegar
  • The implication that Aerys had his way with Lady Joanna
  • Dothraki standard practice of raping women after a battle - Dany tries to break this cycle of violence against women. 

We know that the Lords of Westeros normally have to answer to no one in regards of their treatment of women. Aerys even violated his wife with impunity; the Kingsguard were not responsible for protecting Rhaella from her husband. There's even the 'Lord's right to the first night' that sanctifies such behaviour. That does not mean it's right. When we look at the list of songs and consider the story of Danny Flint, I imagine the Rat Cook suffered just such an abuse - his daughter or wife may indeed have been raped by his visitors and prince or no, the Rat Cook had his vengeance. 

So Dany Flint's story perhaps stands for the violated daughter/wife of the Rat Cook. Danny Flint then is the maiden or wife with the fiery characteristic; the Prince the central character in the Dornishman's wife song; The Rat Cook is the angry husband / father in the Dornishman's wife / Northman's daughter song scenario. 

I'll have to think about the rest of the songs in Mance's repetoire to make more connections.  

Mmm, some interesting points! It is entirely possible that these songs do create a narrative unit, and I like your ideas about the Rat Cook's reasons, but I'm just a little reticent as Manderly asks for the Rat Cook, almost specially to point out 'Frey Pie' to savvy readers. Mance would not know that Manderly had killed the Frey's, and therefore intended this song to be sung, so would he have otherwise have included it in his narrative? Just like how Lady Dustin asked for something happier and then Mance played 'The Queen took off her Sandal' and 'The Bear and the Maiden Fair', I'm a little unsure about attributing this to Mance's song-story.

I have had a thought about "Iron Lances", however. There is one occasion when Lyanna is linked to iron. When discussing Lyanna in the crypts with Robert, Ned says: 

"You never knew Lyanna as I did, Robert. You saw her beauty, but not the iron underneath."

I think I now see a kind of chronology with these songs relating to Rhaegar/Lyanna. Especially, I think "Brave Danny Flint", "The Dornishman's Wife/The Northman's Daughter", "Iron Lances", "The Winter Maid" and maybe even perhaps "The Maids that Bloom at Spring" can be connected to the Rhaegar/Lyanna story.

  • Brave Danny Flint:
    • Danny Flint disguises herself as a boy and joins the Nights Watch.
    • "Flint" surname links song to Lyanna and the North generally.
    • Lyanna probably disguised herself as a boy when she became 'The Knight of the Laughing Tree' to protect Howland Reed.
    • Some people suggest Rhaegar fell in love with her when he discovered she was a girl, in essence, when he discovered she was a Danny Flint.
  • The Dornishman's Wife
    • Central character has relationship with Dornishman's wife, Dornishman then kills him.
    • This relates to Rhaegar and Lyanna's relationship/seduction/whatever, with Robert being the Dornishman who literally kills Rhaegar.
  • Iron Lances
    • We know very little about the content of this song, other than it is "rousing" according to the Wiki.
    • Considering Ned's comment about the "iron underneath" Lyanna's beautiful exterior, it could be about Lyanna's "iron" response to Rhaegar's death/Jon's birth etc.
  • The Winter Maid
    • A "sad" song, which prompts Lady Dustin to ask Mance to sing something more jolly.
    • A conjectured link to Lyanna's death. How old is this song? Who wrote it? What are it's origins? There are no other occurrences of it outside Mance's performance.
    • Unless we can link it to Tyrion's song "Seasons of My Love", where the lines "I loved a maid as white as winter with moonglow in her hair" appear. Can Lyanna be connected to the moon? (Val definitely can). Or is this more generically mourning a 'Winter Maid' who easily could be a girl from House Stark.
  • The Maids that Bloom in Spring
    • Again, not a whole lot to go on with this song, but could again be links to "Seasons of My Love" (but we do not have the lyrics for the spring verse).
    • The word that intrigues me here is 'bloom'. Bloom implies growth in the spring, after the winter. If we take a quick look back at the 'Dornishman's Wife' we can see that cold/death are linked. Therefore, after the "death" of both the central character in 'Dornishman's Wife' and the sad content of 'The Winter Maid', something, seemingly maids here, "blooms" out of the previous songs. Could this be Jon, "blooming" out of Rhaegar and Lyanna's relationship? (Admittedly this one is a little weak!)

So, what does this mean for Mance? I think if Mance was consciously singing these songs in Winterfell about Rhaegar and Lyanna, it could prove that Mance = Rhaegar is true, if Mance/Rhaegar knew that Jon was his son and wanted to include it in the songs as a subtle hint, who was he trying to hint it to? Jon's not at the wedding? Why not tell him to his face? Therefore, I think the positioning of these songs is more metafictional, and a way for Rhaegar and Lyanna's story to be told in Winterfell in conjunction with Mance's plan to kidnap Fake Arya for their son Jon, especially considering the numerous comparisons between the real Arya and Lyanna.

 Just a quick detour to Gilly. Here is the first description of Gilly we get from Jon's perspective:

"One of Craster's women was backed up against the mud-spattered wall of the keep... The woman regarded them with nervous eyes. She was younger than he'd thought at first. A girl of fifteen or sixteen years, he judged, dark hair plastered across a gaunt face by the falling rain, her bare feet muddy to the ankles."

In this first description, Gilly is clearly a "wild woman" of the Dornishman's wife/Lyanna/Ygritte model. Firstly, she is directly connected to nature, being "muddy to the ankles". Like Lyanna, she also has "dark hair". Her age is also striking - described as 15 or 16, she is similar in age to both Lyanna when she ran away with Rhaegar (who was 16 or 17) and Ygritte (who is 18 when we first meet her). Other "forbidden" women who fall in this category are Ashara Dayne (who could have been anything between 14 to 23), Jeyne Poole - the woman Mance was trying to steal (who was probably about the same age as Sansa, so let's say 13-15) or even Jeyne Westerling (who was aged 14 to 16). Of course, Gilly is also "stolen" by Sam (but obviously she has her own agency in this), linking back to the connections between the Dornishman's wife and wildling customs, Mance's disguise as Bael the Bard and even the links between the gillyflower and blue roses growing in chinks in walls!!

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14 minutes ago, SeethemFly said:

Mmm, some interesting points! It is entirely possible that these songs do create a narrative unit, and I like your ideas about the Rat Cook's reasons, but I'm just a little reticent as Manderly asks for the Rat Cook, almost specially to point out 'Frey Pie' to savvy readers. Mance would not know that Manderly had killed the Frey's, and therefore intended this song to be sung, so would he have otherwise have included it in his narrative? Just like how Lady Dustin asked for something happier and then Mance played 'The Queen took off her Sandal' and 'The Bear and the Maiden Fair', I'm a little unsure about attributing this to Mance's song-story...

 

The Rat Cook song is definitely multilayered in its symbolism. I doubt it is a reference to Frey pies alone. While I subscribe to that theory, Frey pies and the implications of cannibalism are only one part of what may be gleaned from the song. Specifically, cannibalism may be the key to acquiring the power to warg humans. We have no definite example of that but my studies on warging and skinchanging suggest cannibalism could be a kind of blood ritual (and an abomination) that ultimately confers this ability upon a powerful greenseer. In this context, remember also that Bran may have already consumed human flesh in the form of the 'pork' brought by Coldhands. There is also this thread here - an excellent interpretation of the Rat Cook that I find very plausible. The OP is well worth reading. The idea that the Rat Cook may have avenged his violated wife or daughter is part of this multiple symbolism. I mean, we do have to ask ourselves why he did it, don't we? 

On the Iron Lances - whatever the lyrics, the name reminds me of spears and in respect of Lyanna and the Dornishman's wife/Northman's daughter, the spearwife. Before the advent of steel, iron would have been a metal of choice for spear or lance tips, prior to that, it would have been bronze (remember MMD's knife is leaf shaped - the kind of shape a speartip would have, and it's bronze). So the iron underneath could refer to Lyanna's ancient inheritance as a 'spearwife' while the sad Winter Maid song could refer to the fate of the maiden at the hands of the NK or whoever violated her.
I have to come out of the closet regarding my personal thoughts on Rhaegar and Lyanna here. I do not believe in R+L= J at all. When one looks at the implications of all these songs, the sad winter maids, the fate of Danny Flint, bears (beasts) dancing and licking gold off maids (never mind how delighted they are portrayed to be - Jeyne Pool is certainly not enarmoured of Ramsay, who is described as a beast in human skin), Gilly, with her 'hot mustard' wallflower connection and the fact that she's an unnatural daughter wife (note the daughter/wife implication here regarding the songs - DM-wife/ NM-daughter) to her father etc etc., I do not see how Rhaegar could have been Lyanna's consort and father to her child. And this is only the tip of the iceberg in respect of symbolism surrounding the clues to the mystery. The fact that Bael the Bard's intentions were far from noble - he came disguised as a singer, a deceiver, in order to pay back the Lord of Winterfell for an insult and he paid him back by stealing is daughter and kept her in the crypts for one whole year! I mean - okay, some might see romance in all this but I don't. I believe Rhaegar was as much a pawn as Lyanna, both tragic characters in someone else's game. Okay, that's just my opinion against a million others. Maybe I'm wrong but there are plenty of reasons for me to be doubtful. 

The Maids that Bloom in Spring - I tend to agree with your thoughts on links to the Seasons of My Love song here. This one perhaps is unfulfilled - we have winter now and expect spring (hopefully) - we also expect Jon to play a role in bringing about that spring. So perhaps we shall see a daughter of Jon in that context in the future, at the end of the books? On the other hand, the LN past did end. Spring came. But..... we also have the False Spring during which the Tourney of Harrenhall was held. The World Book also states that although the enemies were vanquished, things were not quite right after the LN. It seems to me that True Spring is yet to come and that we will be hard pressed to find any character corresponding to the Maids that Bloom in Spring. 

 

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3 minutes ago, Evolett said:

The Rat Cook song is definitely multilayered in its symbolism. I doubt it is a reference to Frey pies alone. While I subscribe to that theory, Frey pies and the implications of cannibalism are only one part of what may be gleaned from the song. Specifically, cannibalism may be the key to acquiring the power to warg humans. We have no definite example of that but my studies on warging and skinchanging suggest cannibalism could be a kind of blood ritual (and an abomination) that ultimately confers this ability upon a powerful greenseer. In this context, remember also that Bran may have already consumed human flesh in the form of the 'pork' brought by Coldhands. There is also this thread here - an excellent interpretation of the Rat Cook that I find very plausible. The OP is well worth reading. The idea that the Rat Cook may have avenged his violated wife or daughter is part of this multiple symbolism. I mean, we do have to ask ourselves why he did it, don't we? 

On the Iron Lances - whatever the lyrics, the name reminds me of spears and in respect of Lyanna and the Dornishman's wife/Northman's daughter, the spearwife. Before the advent of steel, iron would have been a metal of choice for spear or lance tips, prior to that, it would have been bronze (remember MMD's knife is leaf shaped - the kind of shape a speartip would have, and it's bronze). So the iron underneath could refer to Lyanna's ancient inheritance as a 'spearwife' while the sad Winter Maid song could refer to the fate of the maiden at the hands of the NK or whoever violated her.
I have to come out of the closet regarding my personal thoughts on Rhaegar and Lyanna here. I do not believe in R+L= J at all. When one looks at the implications of all these songs, the sad winter maids, the fate of Danny Flint, bears (beasts) dancing and licking gold off maids (never mind how delighted they are portrayed to be - Jeyne Pool is certainly not enarmoured of Ramsay, who is described as a beast in human skin), Gilly, with her 'hot mustard' wallflower connection and the fact that she's an unnatural daughter wife (note the daughter/wife implication here regarding the songs - DM-wife/ NM-daughter) to her father etc etc., I do not see how Rhaegar could have been Lyanna's consort and father to her child. And this is only the tip of the iceberg in respect of symbolism surrounding the clues to the mystery. The fact that Bael the Bard's intentions were far from noble - he came disguised as a singer, a deceiver, in order to pay back the Lord of Winterfell for an insult and he paid him back by stealing is daughter and kept her in the crypts for one whole year! I mean - okay, some might see romance in all this but I don't. I believe Rhaegar was as much a pawn as Lyanna, both tragic characters in someone else's game. Okay, that's just my opinion against a million others. Maybe I'm wrong but there are plenty of reasons for me to be doubtful. 

The Maids that Bloom in Spring - I tend to agree with your thoughts on links to the Seasons of My Love song here. This one perhaps is unfulfilled - we have winter now and expect spring (hopefully) - we also expect Jon to play a role in bringing about that spring. So perhaps we shall see a daughter of Jon in that context in the future, at the end of the books? On the other hand, the LN past did end. Spring came. But..... we also have the False Spring during which the Tourney of Harrenhall was held. The World Book also states that although the enemies were vanquished, things were not quite right after the LN. It seems to me that True Spring is yet to come and that we will be hard pressed to find any character corresponding to the Maids that Bloom in Spring. 

 

I hadn't thought of the Rat Cook implications, and I will look more closely tomorrow (when I'm a little more awake!) And on second inspection, it also seems that Manderly asks for 'The Night that Ended' and 'Brave Danny Flint' as well, so it's possible that they are included along with in 'Rat Cook' as a metafictional narrative. I'll have another think about what's going on here with all the Rat Cook subtexts included!

Interesting thoughts about R+L=J. Although I am a believer of that theory, I understand why someone wouldn't be fully convinced. Your comment about Bael the Bard being a 'deceiver' interested me, because for a little while I had this theory that Rhaegar was so into fulfilling the 'Three Heads of the Dragon' prophecy that him and Elia conspired together to find him an alternate consort for him to father a 'Visenya', and they found and talked Lyanna into it for some reason. Hence why Elia never seems to have a super strong reaction to R+L's escapade, because she knew. Your description as Bael as a 'deceiver' is therefore intriguing considering in this scenario Rhaegar deceives Lyanna to fulfill the prophecy. I am a believer in R+L=J because I believe there is enough evidence to support it (I mean, what was Ned's promise to Lyanna if it's wasn't 'Look after Jon'?), but I am open to being persuaded! I do think it may not be as simple as 'romance' as some people suggest.

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42 minutes ago, SeethemFly said:

I hadn't thought of the Rat Cook implications, and I will look more closely tomorrow (when I'm a little more awake!) And on second inspection, it also seems that Manderly asks for 'The Night that Ended' and 'Brave Danny Flint' as well, so it's possible that they are included along with in 'Rat Cook' as a metafictional narrative. I'll have another think about what's going on here with all the Rat Cook subtexts included!

Interesting thoughts about R+L=J. Although I am a believer of that theory, I understand why someone wouldn't be fully convinced. Your comment about Bael the Bard being a 'deceiver' interested me, because for a little while I had this theory that Rhaegar was so into fulfilling the 'Three Heads of the Dragon' prophecy that him and Elia conspired together to find him an alternate consort for him to father a 'Visenya', and they found and talked Lyanna into it for some reason. Hence why Elia never seems to have a super strong reaction to R+L's escapade, because she knew. Your description as Bael as a 'deceiver' is therefore intriguing considering in this scenario Rhaegar deceives Lyanna to fulfill the prophecy. I am a believer in R+L=J because I believe there is enough evidence to support it (I mean, what was Ned's promise to Lyanna if it's wasn't 'Look after Jon'?), but I am open to being persuaded! I do think it may not be as simple as 'romance' as some people suggest.

I don't want this to degenerate into a is R+L=J true or not discussion but consider the following: Dany's vision in the HobaW shows Rhaegar more or less presenting the 'Prince that was Promised', whom he believed personified in baby Aegon. The man was obviously obsessed with the prophecy as shown by this vision (which comes long after his death) and his correspondence with Aegon. He had every reason to hope Elia would bear another child despite her frail health and no way of knowing if any other woman would provide the third head of the dragon. Why would he risk incurring the wrath of his wife and her possible refusal to ever sleep with him again by crowning a complete stranger as Queen of Love and Beauty? If there's one thing I believe about Rhaegar, it's that he was not a violent man. He was probably as honourable and true a knight as Selmy. His concern over the misrule of his mad father is evident. This man would never rape any woman, neither would he visit a brothel (as Ned himself thinks). No way would he kidnapp an innocent girl unless under duress imo. I think the last word he uttered with his dying breath was 'Elia', not Lyanna. Elia was his wife. The very woman who bore him the prince that was promised (as he believed). A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. She and their mutual children (including the Prince that was Promised) were being held ransom in King's Landing by Aerys to guarantee  Dornish commitment to the war effort. Why on earth would Rhaegar then utter the name of some other woman? I just don't see it. The whole thing is much more complicated than R+L=J would have it. 

I'll go away to keep thinking of the songs - and, yes, Gilly and the hot mustard flower connection, baby switching and all that :-)

 

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9 hours ago, Evolett said:

I don't want this to degenerate into a is R+L=J true or not discussion but consider the following: Dany's vision in the HobaW shows Rhaegar more or less presenting the 'Prince that was Promised', whom he believed personified in baby Aegon. The man was obviously obsessed with the prophecy as shown by this vision (which comes long after his death) and his correspondence with Aegon. He had every reason to hope Elia would bear another child despite her frail health and no way of knowing if any other woman would provide the third head of the dragon. Why would he risk incurring the wrath of his wife and her possible refusal to ever sleep with him again by crowning a complete stranger as Queen of Love and Beauty? If there's one thing I believe about Rhaegar, it's that he was not a violent man. He was probably as honourable and true a knight as Selmy. His concern over the misrule of his mad father is evident. This man would never rape any woman, neither would he visit a brothel (as Ned himself thinks). No way would he kidnapp an innocent girl unless under duress imo. I think the last word he uttered with his dying breath was 'Elia', not Lyanna. Elia was his wife. The very woman who bore him the prince that was promised (as he believed). A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. She and their mutual children (including the Prince that was Promised) were being held ransom in King's Landing by Aerys to guarantee  Dornish commitment to the war effort. Why on earth would Rhaegar then utter the name of some other woman? I just don't see it. The whole thing is much more complicated than R+L=J would have it. 

I'll go away to keep thinking of the songs - and, yes, Gilly and the hot mustard flower connection, baby switching and all that :-)

 

Cool :) I think I'm going to go off and think about Gilly and Ashara Dayne in the "spearwife" model.

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Ok, I’ve been having a little think and here is what I’ve come up with so far.

 Firstly, I just want to mention the analysis of Mance Rayder by Bran Vras in his ‘Winterfell Huis Clos’ series, especially his connections between Mance and Bael/Melisandre/Rhaegar, his suggestions about Val and Dalla’s connections to the moon and moonsingers, and Mance’s repertoire. Perhaps this could fit in to a few things we’ve said.

http://branvras.free.fr/HuisClos/Pander.html

And now onto Ashara Dayne:

Ashara Dayne

Although Ashara is not a “stolen” woman in the same way as the Lord of Winterfell’s daughter, Lyanna Stark, Fake Arya, Gilly, Ygritte or the wildling women, she is in a sense a “forbidden” woman, a “Dornishman’s Wife”. This is the impression you get from Barristan Selmy’s memories of her in DwD, even though he did not succumb to her charms:

“Rhaegar had chosen Lyanna Stark of Winterfell. Barristan Selmy would have made a different choice. Not the queen, who was not present. Nor Elia of Dorne, though she was good and gentle; had she been chosen, much war and woe might have been avoided. His choice would have been a young maiden not long at court, one of Elia’s companions … though compared to Ashara Dayne, the Dornish princess was a kitchen drab.

Even after all these years, Ser Barristan could still recall Ashara’s smile, the sound of her laughter. He had only to close his eyes to see her, with her long dark hair tumbling about her shoulders and those haunting purple eyes. Daenerys has the same eyes. Sometimes when the queen looked at him, he felt as if he were looking at Ashara’s daughter…”

“But Ashara’s daughter had been stillborn, and his fair lady had thrown herself from a tower soon after, mad with grief for the child she had lost, and perhaps for the man who had dishonored her at Harrenhal as well. She died never knowing that Ser Barristan had loved her. How could she? He was a knight of the Kingsguard, sworn to celibacy. No good could have come from telling her his feelings. No good came from silence either. If I had unhorsed Rhaegar and crowned Ashara queen of love and beauty, might she have looked to me instead of Stark?”

- “The Kingbreaker”, A Dance with Dragons

Here we get a physical description of Ashara Dayne – she is described as a “young maiden”. This could link back to the maids in ‘The Seasons of My Love’, or indeed to the Dornishman’s Wife herself. But then again the designation “young maiden” is used often to describe young women. Similarly, there is not much to go on over her looks; the dark hair and purple eyes are not reminiscent of either song. Perhaps they are mentioned to set Ashara up as a potential mother for Jon Snow – his dark hair could be her trait?

However, there are other connections to the Dornishman’s Wife/Forbidden Women to be made here. Firstly, Ashara is from Dorne, and that brings along with it all the connotations of the “speared wife” and the sigil of House Martell mentioned earlier, and Dornish women being “Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken”. Secondly, Ashara is from House Dayne, whose sigil is a white sword crossed with a falling star. This could connect to the astronomical connotations seen in ‘Seasons of My Love’ particularly the “sunlight”, “sunset” and “moonglow” in the maid’s hair. Indeed, the Dayne’s are from “starfall”. Could the missing spring lyrics contain something about stars?

Now, turning back to what Selmy said, it’s clear he sees Ashara as a forbidden woman or a Dornishman’s wife. Selmy is full of regret, he says no good could have come from telling her his feelings, relating to the fact that he was a Kingsguard, sworn to celibacy. By telling Ashara how he felt, he would have broken his vows; what happens to a Kingsguard who breaks his vows? But then Selmy changes tack; he states that “no good came from silence either” - this could in relation to his belief that Robert’s Rebellion was caused by Rhaegar proclaiming Lyanna Queen of Love and Beauty, as he states that if Elia of Dorne had been chosen ‘much war and woe might have been avoided’. However, this cannot be the whole answer – at the end of the paragraph he ruminates on the suggestion that if he had won the tourney and made Ashara Queen of Love and Beauty, might she have looked at him instead of Stark? Selmy’s guilt and regret is therefore not just about how he could have averted Robert’s Rebellion, but about how he could have had the opportunity to woo Ashara and failed.

This is in direct opposition to the central character of ‘The Dornishman’s Wife’ who does woo his “forbidden woman”. When he is killed by the Dornishman, he states “But what does it matter, for all men must die, and I’ve tasted the Dornishman’s Wife”. Is the message here go get the Dornishman’s Wife and sod the consequences?

Now, I turn to another comment made about Ashara, this time by Harwin to Arya:

“Aye, he told me. Lady Ashara Dayne. It’s an old tale, that one. I heard it once at Winterfell, when I was no older than you are now.” He took hold of her bridle firmly and turned her horse around. “I doubt there’s any truth to it. But if there is, what of it? When Ned met this Dornish lady, his brother Brandon was still alive, and it was him betrothed to Lady Catelyn, so there’s no stain on your father’s honor. There’s nought like a tourney to make the blood run hot, so maybe some words were whispered in a tent of a night, who can say? Words or kisses, maybe more, but where’s the harm in that? Spring had come, or so they thought, and neither one of them was pledged.”

-       “Arya VIII”, A Storm of Swords

Now, this passage is really interesting, as it is devoid of the shame associated with Ashara in Selmy’s POV. If you want to read more about Ashara, shame and dishonour see here:

http://asoiafuniversity.tumblr.com/post/128217917558/i-find-it-odd-that-ashara-dayne-is-openly

Back to the passage, it’s made clear that Harwin thinks ‘Stark’ is Eddard, but that could just be an example of George trying to make us thing E+A=J. Here, there is nothing “forbidden” about Ashara for Ned, because both were unattached as Brandon was posed to marry Catelyn, and Ashara was single. But Harwin uses some interesting language to describe the relationship between Ned and Ashara.

Firstly, he comments the tourney makes “the blood run hot”. Interestingly, there is a mention of blood in the Dornishman’s wife: as the central character lays dying there is “the taste of blood on his tongue”. Alongside the idea of hot blood/desire and the hot blood/fiery women contexts we’ve already discussed, there could be more to this phrase. The word taste is used once more in the DW, as the central character is unafraid to die because he has “tasted the Dornishman’s Wife”. This connects the taste of blood = taste of the Dornishman’s Wife, and also the idea of seizing the forbidden = bloodshed which the Selmy passage also highlights.

Secondly, Harwin highlights the ‘words or kisses’ that pass between Ned and Ashara. This is really interesting considering the two positive attributes given to the Dornishman’s Wife: her voice which is ‘sweet as a peach’ (voice=words, peach=the forbidden) and her kisses which are ‘warmer than spring’. This is notable considering Harwin’s next phrase, that Ned and Ashara thought “Spring had come”. In what way? That literally spring had arrived? This year was the year of the ‘False Spring’, but why bring that up unless you are talking about the “spring” in conjunction with Ned and Ashara’s relationship. Harwin’s mention her could be saying that their relationship was a type of “spring”- that it was warmer than spring. Could this relate again to ‘Seasons of My love’ and the unknown spring verse. Is the missing verse something like “I loved a maid as fair as summer with starlight in her hair”? This would make the connection between Ashara=Spring stronger as well as connecting to the structure of the song. So far we have summer = sunlight, autumn = sunset, winter = moonglow. If the ‘spring’ verse was the first verse, the song could not only highlight the passing of the seasons, but also night to day and back again. But of course, this is conjecture.

Now, let’s turn to Meera’s story.

“Under Harren’s roof he ate and drank with the wolves, and many of their sworn swords besides, barrowdown men and moose and bears and mermen. The dragon prince sang a song so sad it made the she-wolf cry, but when the pup teased her for crying she poured wine over his head. A black brother spoke, asking the knights to join the Night’s Watch. The storm lord drank down the knight of skulls and kisses in a wine-cup war. The crannogman saw a maid with laughing purple eyes dance with a white sword, a red snake, and lord of griffins, and lastly with the quiet wolf . . . but only after the wild wolf spoke to her on behalf of a brother too shy to leave his bench.”

I don’t have much to say about this except that if the ‘white sword’ is Selmy, the story doesn’t quite add up. Selmy’s memories of Ashara seemed to suggest he had not had much interaction with her, therefore I suggest that the ‘white sword’ is Arthur Dayne, Ashara’s brother, rather than Selmy. Also, that Brandon had to encourage Ned to make a move on Ashara, so not exactly seizing the forbidden fruit. Is this why Ned escaped the bloodshed?

I also think there may be something in the people Ashara dances with connecting them to ‘Seasons of My Love’.

-       A white sword

o   If this is Arthur Dayne, his identity as the Dayne could link him to the conjectured “spring” verse, especially as his status as the Sword of the Morning may connect to the idea of the passage of time (with Spring = starlight = morning).

-       A red snake

o   This is Oberyn Martell. His connection to summer and the sun is quite strong. The Dorne sigil is the sun being stabbed by a spear, and their capital is Sunspear. Therefore, although he is not literally ‘fair’ like the maid, he represents summer.

-       Lord of Griffins

o   This is Jon Connington. This is a little more difficult, but it can be seen that Jon is connected to autumnal colours – firstly, he has faded red hair, and other another House Connington is known as ‘Red’ Ronnet. The colours of House Connington are also red and white. This links to the phrase ‘red as autumn’.

-       The Quiet Wolf

o   This is Eddard Stark. The Starks are from the North and are associated with Winter. Their words are ‘winter is coming’.

I’m not saying that Ashara was literally in love with these men, it’s just an interesting coincidence!

I will get back to you on the topic of Gilly/the Rat Cook/Mance’s songs when my thoughts are something intelligible.

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Oh, I love the way you’ve worked your way through this. I don’t think I would have seen half as much. Nice, nice, a great template to build on. I follow your reasoning throughout and would like to comment on this section on the False Spring in particular:

6 hours ago, SeethemFly said:

Secondly, Harwin highlights the ‘words or kisses’ that pass between Ned and Ashara. This is really interesting considering the two positive attributes given to the Dornishman’s Wife: her voice which is ‘sweet as a peach’ (voice=words, peach=the forbidden) and her kisses which are ‘warmer than spring’. This is notable considering Harwin’s next phrase, that Ned and Ashara thought “Spring had come”. In what way? That literally spring had arrived? This year was the year of the ‘False Spring’, but why bring that up unless you are talking about the “spring” in conjunction with Ned and Ashara’s relationship. Harwin’s mention her could be saying that their relationship was a type of “spring”- that it was warmer than spring. Could this relate again to ‘Seasons of My love’ and the unknown spring verse. Is the missing verse something like “I loved a maid as fair as summer with starlight in her hair”? This would make the connection between Ashara=Spring stronger as well as connecting to the structure of the song. So far we have summer = sunlight, autumn = sunset, winter = moonglow. If the ‘spring’ verse was the first verse, the song could not only highlight the passing of the seasons, but also night to day and back again. But of course, this is conjecture.

Harwin's quote places blood running hot and words and kisses in relation to spring but my feeling is the emphasis here is on 

or so they thought, and neither one of them was pledged.” 

Firstly, I'm on board with the parallel between heat and the Dornishman's wife archetype.
Looking at 'neither of them was pledged' further suggests the maid fulfilled the conditions for 'tasting' or stealing. Btw, I came across something Ygritte tells Jon which clarifies the conditions under which a spearwife is stolen: You know nothing, Jon Snow. Daughters are taken, not wives. So it's never wives but maidens/daughters, which ties into Mance's version of the song. So the next question is, could Ned have stolen her/stolen a night with her? I think the answer to this is negative, suggested by the story, which states he was too shy to even ask her for a dance. From what we know of Ned, seizing a forbidden fruit also seems quite out of character. He mirrors Selmy in this way (also in respect of honour etc).
Brandon on the other hand is a proven 'thief' and fits the central character motiif - he certainly stole Barbrey Dustin's maidenhood and she became someone else's wife. And he kills himself while trying his best to reach his sword - interesting if we equate the sword with the 'spearwife'. 

 

The next point - they thought it was spring highlights that they were wrong and perhaps suggests that some elements of Harwin's scene fulfill the conditions for a spring verse but not all. Thinking on the Dornishman's wife song, my guess would be Ned not stealing Ashara belongs to a spring scenario, while the hot blood and passion does not (that's a summer attribute). The blood running hot  which you've related to the taste of blood on the Dornishman's tongue also implies that it's predominantly the men who 'run hot' - quite natural considering the nature of the championship at hand, the chance to fight for a fantastic purse, to prove one's ability to the ladies - the tourney is a very masculine affair. So again, in relation to a cooler spring, my feeling is we're looking for something more sedate than the height of passion. Actually, the Seasons of my love also suggests a progression through a love scene or even a relationship or marriage. The beginnings are a bit hesitant but tender (words and kisses and spring), move on to a passionate, fiery stage (hot blooded - summer), cools down somewhat but still retains elements of passion (sunset, autumn), fades out into comfortable togetherness with an afterglow (winter, memories, moonglow). Well, ideally, that is. Green is one attribute of spring; freshness, green shoots, new leaves, nature waking up again. A maiden is also 'fresh and green' in the sense that she's inexperienced in sex and relationships in general. I imagine a spring verse to contain green - perhaps "I loved a maid as green as spring, with leaflets in her hair" (lol) - something along those lines. Coming to think of it, there are those mentions of maidens with green hair - Lord Manderlys Wylla (!) for instance and the daughter of the Archeon of Tyrosh. Writing this just jogged my memory as well - yet another song that might be connected to all this. It's the one Tom o' Sevens sings at Acorn Hall:

Tom was singing when they returned to the hall.

My featherbed is deep and soft,
and there I’ll lay you down,
I’ll dress you all in yellow silk,
and on your head a crown.

For you shall be my lady love,
and I shall be your lord.
I’ll always keep you warm and safe,
and guard you with my sword.

And how she smiled and how she laughed,
the maiden of the tree.
She spun away and said to him,
no featherbed for me.
I’ll wear a gown of golden leaves,
and bind my hair with grass,
But you can be my forest love,
and me your forest lass.

The first verse is interesting - we have a lord promising to dress a maiden in yellow silk and a (golden?) crown, evocative of the sunlight maiden. He wants to keep her warm and safe, guard her with his sword. In contrast to the Dornishman's wife - this lord does not steal, he proposes to the sunny maiden instead. But the maiden refuses gracefully. She points out that she is not a sunny maiden but a maiden of the tree. She'll wear a sunny leafy gown and will bind her hair with (green) grass. Hm. She defines herself as a forest maiden, a maiden of nature, a tree maiden. Very green. Perhaps I'm right about the first spring verse. She's sunny as well, she has the sunny gown but she's very much a tree maiden as well. Could this refer to Ashara or Lyanna or both? Actually, I've been looking at this song in another context and haven't been able to make up my mind. 

ETA - The first verse = Ashara (think Selmy here - he would have crowned Ashara QoLaB, he would have proposed, he would have certainly kept her safe with his sword.)

Second verse = Lyanna - the maiden of the tree ... KotLT, weirwoods etc. 

---------------

Now to Meera's story and the four men who dance with Ashara. You've done a really great job there and really got me thinking. Here are a few things to add to your interpretation;

Firstly, I endorse Arthur Dayne as the white sword for the reasons you've given and additionally, for the connection to the theme of honourable men who don't seize the forbidden fruit - Ned and Selmy, all honourable characters, those most associated with honor in the books. I'm beginning to believe that honour is an important subtheme of the spring verse. No stealing or cheating to take the woman - consent is required here as also implied by Tom's song. (Recall also Ygritte and Jon - Ygritte insists Jon stole her, Jon denies having stolen her; also significant - Val asks Jon if he killed Jarl  - have to look for that).
Also of course the white sword Dawn which equates to spring in terms of the times of day (sunrise=spring / midday=summer / sunset = autumn / night = winter). ["I loved a maid as green as spring, with sunrise in her hair"] :)


Anyway, I dug up some stuff on in connection with Arthur which seems relevant:

Quote

They found the Golden Company beside the river as the sun was lowering in the west. It was a camp that even Arthur Dayne might have approved of—compact, orderly, defensible. The Lost Lord

Here we have the Golden Company evoking sunlight/summer, but the sun is setting (sunset) - perhaps this is a reference more to sunset than summer and Arthur might have approved. Being an honourable man, Arthur would not have approved of the Dornishman's wife scenario (summer), but he might approve of the sunset scenario (which we don't know enough about yet in terms of women or conditions). Compact, orderly, defensible in relation to red-haired women - Catelyn? Orderly = duty, defensible = defends family? Have to think some more about this one. But the next quote is revealing. This is Jamie thinking about Arthur and the Smiling Knight:

Quote

And he’d held his own against the Smiling Knight, though it was Ser Arthur who slew himWhat a fight that was, and what a foe. The Smiling Knight was a madman, cruelty and chivalry all jumbled up together, but he did not know the meaning of fearAnd Dayne, with Dawn in hand The outlaw’s longsword had so many notches by the end that Ser Arthur had stopped to let him fetch a new one. “It’s that white sword of yours I want,” the robber knight told him as they resumed, though he was bleeding from a dozen wounds by then. “Then you shall have it, ser,” the Sword of the Morning replied, and made an end of it.

 

Lots of parallels to the Dornishman's wife here. The Smiling Knight recalls the central character who  smiled and laughed and sung.

He's a robber knight, a thief and in a parallel to the NK who chases the winter maid, he does not know the meaning of fear. The White Fawn who brands captives taken by the Kingswood Brotherhood may mirror the Night's Queen. The central character in the DmW embraces death after 'tasting' and the way this is written (it's that white sword of yours I want - then you shall have it, ser) implies the Smiling Knight embraces his death. Dawn, said to be 'alive with light' is a stand-in for the 'spearwife' infused with inner warmth/fiery characteristic - actually a direct mirroring of Nissa Nissa's strength and soul (her light) infusing Lightbringer. Dawn is definitely a very sharp sword, perhaps its bite is also cold and sharp as a leech - hm, a leech - of course! - it's a double metaphor - Dawn / LB leeches (drains) the warmth, soul from a woman. :)

That's what I like about these analyses. You never know where you'll end up. I look foreward to your next thoughts!

 

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41 minutes ago, Evolett said:

Oh, I love the way you’ve worked your way through this. I don’t think I would have seen half as much. Nice, nice, a great template to build on. I follow your reasoning throughout and would like to comment on this section on the False Spring in particular:

Harwin's quote places blood running hot and words and kisses in relation to spring but my feeling is the emphasis here is on 

or so they thought, and neither one of them was pledged.” 

Firstly, I'm on board with the parallel between heat and the Dornishman's wife archetype.
Looking at 'neither of them was pledged' further suggests the maid fulfilled the conditions for 'tasting' or stealing. Btw, I came across something Ygritte tells Jon which clarifies the conditions under which a spearwife is stolen: You know nothing, Jon Snow. Daughters are taken, not wives. So it's never wives but maidens/daughters, which ties into Mance's version of the song. So the next question is, could Ned have stolen her/stolen a night with her? I think the answer to this is negative, suggested by the story, which states he was too shy to even ask her for a dance. From what we know of Ned, seizing a forbidden fruit also seems quite out of character. He mirrors Selmy in this way (also in respect of honour etc).
Brandon on the other hand is a proven 'thief' and fits the central character motiif - he certainly stole Barbrey Dustin's maidenhood and she became someone else's wife.

 

The next point - they thought it was spring highlights that they were wrong and perhaps suggests that some elements of Harwin's scene fulfill the conditions for a spring verse but not all. Thinking on the Dornishman's wife song, my guess would be Ned not stealing Ashara belongs to a spring scenario, while the hot blood and passion does not (that's a summer attribute). The blood running hot  which you've related to the taste of blood on the Dornishman's tongue also implies that it's predominantly the men who 'run hot' - quite natural considering the nature of the championship at hand, the chance to fight for a fantastic purse, to prove one's ability to the ladies - the tourney is a very masculine affair. So again, in relation to a cooler spring, my feeling is we're looking for something more sedate than the height of passion. Actually, the Seasons of my love also suggests a progression through a love scene or even a relationship or marriage. The beginnings are a bit hesitant but tender (words and kisses and spring), move on to a passionate, fiery stage (hot blooded - summer), cools down somewhat but still retains elements of passion (sunset, autumn), fades out into comfortable togetherness with an afterglow (winter, memories, moonglow). Well, ideally, that is. Green is one attribute of spring; freshness, green shoots, new leaves, nature waking up again. A maiden is also 'fresh and green' in the sense that she's inexperienced in sex and relationships in general. I imagine a spring verse to contain green - perhaps "I loved a maid as green as spring, with leaflets in her hair" (lol) - something along those lines. Coming to think of it, there are those mentions of maidens with green hair - Lord Manderlys Wylla (!) for instance and the daughter of the Archeon of Tyrosh. Writing this just jogged my memory as well - yet another song that might be connected to all this. It's the one Tom o' Sevens sings at Acorn Hall:

Tom was singing when they returned to the hall.

My featherbed is deep and soft,
and there I’ll lay you down,
I’ll dress you all in yellow silk,
and on your head a crown.

For you shall be my lady love,
and I shall be your lord.
I’ll always keep you warm and safe,
and guard you with my sword.

And how she smiled and how she laughed,
the maiden of the tree.
She spun away and said to him,
no featherbed for me.
I’ll wear a gown of golden leaves,
and bind my hair with grass,
But you can be my forest love,
and me your forest lass.

The first verse is interesting - we have a lord promising to dress a maiden in yellow silk and a (golden?) crown, evocative of the sunlight maiden. He wants to keep her warm and safe, guard her with his sword. In contrast to the Dornishman's wife - this lord does not steal, he proposes to the sunny maiden instead. But the maiden refuses gracefully. She points out that she is not a sunny maiden but a maiden of the tree. She'll wear a sunny leafy gown and will bind her hair with (green) grass. Hm. She defines herself as a forest maiden, a maiden of nature, a tree maiden. Very green. Perhaps I'm right about the first spring verse. She's sunny as well, she has the sunny gown but she's very much a tree maiden as well. Could this refer to Ashara or Lyanna or both? Actually, I've been looking at this song in another context and haven't been able to make up my mind. 

---------------

Now to Meera's story and the four men who dance with Ashara. You've done a really great job there and really got me thinking. Here are a few things to add to your interpretation;

Firstly, I endorse Arthur Dayne as the white sword for the reasons you've given and additionally, for the connection to the theme of honourable men who don't seize the forbidden fruit - Ned and Selmy, all honourable characters, those most associated with honor in the books. I'm beginning to believe that honour is an important subtheme of the spring verse. No stealing or cheating to take the woman - consent is required here as also implied by Tom's song. (Recall also Ygritte and Jon - Ygritte insists Jon stole her, Jon denies having stolen her; also significant - Val asks Jon if he killed Jarl  - have to look for that).
Also of course the white sword Dawn which equates to spring in terms of the times of day (sunrise=spring / midday=summer / sunset = autumn / night = winter). ["I loved a maid as green as spring, with sunrise in her hair"]


Anyway, I dug up some stuff on in connection with Arthur which seems relevant:

Here we have the Golden Company evoking sunlight/summer, but the sun is setting (sunset) - perhaps this is a reference more to sunset than summer and Arthur might have approved. Being an honourable man, Arthur would not have approved of the Dornishman's wife scenario (summer), but he might approve of the sunset scenario (which we don't know enough about yet in terms of women or conditions). Compact, orderly, defensible in relation to red-haired women - Catelyn? Orderly = duty, defensible = defends family? Have to think some more about this one. But the next quote is revealing. This is Jamie thinking about Arthur and the Smiling Knight:

 

 

 

Lots of parallels to the Dornishman's wife here. The Smiling Knight recalls the central character who  smiled and laughed and sung.

He's a robber knight, a thief and in a parallel to the NK who chases the winter maid, he does not know the meaning of fear. The White Fawn who brands captives taken by the Kingswood Brotherhood may mirror the Night's Queen. The central character in the DmW embraces death after 'tasting' and the way this is written (it's that white sword of yours I want - then you shall have it, ser) implies the Smiling Knight embraces his death. Dawn, said to be 'alive with light' is a stand-in for the 'spearwife' infused with inner warmth/fiery characteristic - actually a direct mirroring of Nissa Nissa's strength and soul (her light) infusing Lightbringer. Dawn is definitely a very sharp sword, perhaps its bite is also cold and sharp as a leech - hm, a leech - of course! - it's a double metaphor - Dawn / LB leeches (drains) the warmth, soul from a woman. :)

That's what I like about these analyses. You never know where you'll end up. I look foreward to your next thoughts!

 

Oh, so much to read! I will just give you some instant thoughts I've had when reading this, and formulate something more intelligible tomorrow!

I like your idea about the progression of a relationship in 'Seasons of my Love' and how this relates to stealing/consent etc. Just a comment on your idea about 'green'. The colour green often has connotations of newness or innocence; if someone is inexperienced at a job, for example, you might call them 'green'. So in saying, 'I loved a maid as green as spring' you could be saying 'I loved a maid as innocent as spring'. This works really well with the passage of time/growth of a relationship we've already discussed, and possibly, when viewing the Ned/Ashara relationship, both could be seen as 'innocent' in the False Spring, before both were 'corrupted' by the tragedy that followed. This also works with Harwin's 'They thought it was Spring', as he could be saying 'they thought it was a time of greenness, a time of innocence in which they could be in love'. This perhaps also fits into your ideas about Spring=Consent in comparison to the more 'hot-blooded' summer.

Therefore, when viewing Tom O'Sevens songs, I propose that the first verse is a little more forceful as the Lord dresses the lady up as his 'summer' love = he shall dress her golden silk, she shall be his wife. He's almost insisting that she will be his 'hot-blooded' summer lover, and his insistence almost reads like he's attempting to steal her (although this is slightly tempered by him offering to give her nice clothes/marry her, he's still insisting).

Therefore, when the maiden refuses, saying she will be his 'forest' love with 'grass' in her hair (ie. his 'green/innocent' lover), she is perhaps proposing something more consensual in her refusal; she will not be stolen, she will be his 'green', consensual lover = she has chosen him like he has chosen her.

Your point about the 'orderly' autumn verse and how it is linked to Catelyn got me thinking. We do not hear the verses of 'Seasons of my Love' in order, instead hearing the summer and winter lines in Tyrion's chapters, and the autumn one in a SoS Catelyn chapter, right around the time Hoster Tully is dying. Here is the quote:

Quote
"After a time the candle guttered and went out. Moonlight slanted between the slats of the shutters, laying pale silvery bars across her father’s face. She could hear the soft whisper of his labored breathing, the endless rush of waters, the faint chords of some love song drifting up from the yard, so sad and sweet. “I loved a maid as red as autumn,” Rymund sang, “with sunset in her hair.
Catelyn never noticed when the singing ended. Hours had passed, yet it seemed only a heartbeat before Brienne was at the door. “My Lady,” she announced softly. “Midnight has come.”
(Catelyn VII, ASoS)

Interestingly, this song is not only connected to Catelyn and her red hair here, but also to Catelyn's father, especially interesting considering your father/daughter comments. Furthermore, this song is here connected to the passage of time as 'Hours had passed' and 'Moonlight' beamed through the windows. The 'sunset' in the song is paralleling the slow descent into night here, and ending with Brienne heralding midnight's arrival. This passage of time is also related to Hoster's death.

And I really like your Dawn/Dornishman's Wife/Dayne connections and also how Lightbringer can be seen as one of the kind of 'spear' that we have been discussing. I might also have to do a little more poking around the whole 'Dawn' issue, especially as I seem to remember their being a theory a little while back that Dawn is Lightbringer and it will one day be wielded by Jon. It might be interesting to see how that links to our conclusions.

Finally, our discussions about the 'Dornishman's Wife' led me to look up some Ygritte quotes on the internet and I found this one which is fascinating. She says it to Jon:

Quote

"You’re mine. Mine, as I’m yours. And if we die, we die. All men must die, Jon Snow. But first we’ll live."

This seems a direct parallel of 'The Dornishman's Wife'. Here, she is saying that 'All Men Must Die', just as the central character does as he is laying dying. She says 'but first we live'. This parallels the central character 'living' through his relationship with the Dornishman's wife. The lack of regret in the song and this quote is very striking. However, there also does seem to be a suggestion of the consensual, mutual stealing seen in the Tom O'Sevens songs. 'You're mine. Mine, as I'm yours.' This phrase suggests total equality in the relationship, and this is perhaps evocative of Jon's refusal to steal Ygritte and even Tom O'Sevens maid's refusal to be stolen. I'll let you know when I have anymore thoughts!

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The Dornishman's Wife Foreshadows Abel's Fate

In Sansa I, Storm 6, The Bear and the Maiden Fair was was written to underscore Sansa's emotions when she met the Queen of Thorns, at first believing the Tyrells would we'd her to Loras, and then realizing that they intended to wed her to the cripple Willas. 

In Jon I, Storm 7, The Dornishman's Wife was written to foreshadow Able's fate at Winterfell when we met the Mance. 

Then, in Arya II, Storm 13, we get this...

 

Quote

Off to Gulltown to see the fair maid, heigh-ho, heigh-ho.

I’ll steal a sweet kiss with the point of my blade, heigh-ho, heigh-ho.

I’ll make her my love and we’ll rest in the shade, heigh-ho, heigh-ho.

 

Is the fair maid Arya or Sansa? Sansa doesn't really have anything to do with Arya II, Storm 13. That last line, "we'll rest in the shade," suggests somebody is gonna die, apparently the "fair maid." So who is going to kill the fair maid? 

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This has been an interesting read. I'm glad it wasn't met literally because I would have pointed you in the direction of Marillion and the Blue Bard. They certainly didn't see it coming. Abel too if the Pink Letter is to be believed.

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