SeethemFly Posted March 5, 2016 Author Share Posted March 5, 2016 11 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said: The Dornishman's Wife Foreshadows Abel's Fate In Sansa I, Storm 6, The Bear and the Maiden Fair was was written to underscore Sansa's emotions when she met the Queen of Thorns, at first believing the Tyrells would we'd her to Loras, and then realizing that they intended to wed her to the cripple Willas. In Jon I, Storm 7, The Dornishman's Wife was written to foreshadow Able's fate at Winterfell when we met the Mance. Then, in Arya II, Storm 13, we get this... Is the fair maid Arya or Sansa? Sansa doesn't really have anything to do with Arya II, Storm 13. That last line, "we'll rest in the shade," suggests somebody is gonna die, apparently the "fair maid." So who is going to kill the fair maid? Mmm, that's an interesting quote! However, I don't think the 'shade' links to death, but instead to summer, which I will highlight below. 10 hours ago, Lord Wraith said: This has been an interesting read. I'm glad it wasn't met literally because I would have pointed you in the direction of Marillion and the Blue Bard. They certainly didn't see it coming. Abel too if the Pink Letter is to be believed. Thank you very much! I hope you find the next part good too! After our discussion about 'innocent' spring love, and 'hot-blooded' summer love, I thought I would look at some of the women we've highlighted as 'stolen' women to see if they conform to this dichotomy. I looked at three: the Night's King's Wife, Jeyne Poole and Val and discovered something quite interesting. They are all linked to the cold, winter and death. Seeing this, I decided to looking back at our analysis of Ashara Dayne's dance partners, it got me thinking of why Ned would be the 'winter' lover, when we previously designated him as a 'spring' lover. The answer came to me when thinking of Harwin's 'Spring had come, or so they thought'. In actuality it wasn't spring, it was winter, with all the connotations of cold and death. If Ned was Ashara's baby's father, he was the catalyst for her death, because firstly he was the father or the baby she lost and secondly her brother's killer. Ned is therefore 'winter' and 'death' in this context. I now want to look at the Night's King's Wife, Jeyne Poole and Val, who I see part of this 'Winter = Death' category. All three could be seen as stolen wives however, and we've previously established that you need to be 'hot' to be stolen. This got me thinking, and it made me realise that something has gone wrong with all the 'stealings' of these women: The Night's King's Wife is probably an Other, and may have actually 'stolen' the Night's King. Jeyne Poole is 'stolen' by Theon, but she is not actually Arya Stark, making her the wrong person to be stolen. Val potential stealing is aborted by the fact that Stannis wants to marry her off to one of his southern supporters, breaking the wildling tradition. Ok, here we go! Here are the text supports to back it up! The Night’s King’s Wife Quote “A woman was his downfall; a woman glimpsed from atop the Wall, with skin as white as the moon and eyes like blue stars. Fearing nothing, he chased her and caught her and loved her, though her skin was cold as ice, and when he gave his seed to her he gave his soul as well." Bran IV, A Storm of Swords Here, the Night’s King’s Wife is ice cold, the epitome of the ‘winter maid’. She is nothing like the DW, who is warm and lovely, or even the woman from the song ‘Off to Gulltown’ that Lost Melnibonean mentioned, who the narrator spends time with in the heat of summer. Her closest comparison is the winter maid in 'Seasons of My Love'. She therefore cannot operate as a ‘stolen woman’. However, can the Night’s King be seen as a stolen man? In the other examples we’ve seen so far (think the spear stabbing the sun metaphor, and the Dornishman’s sword like a leech), the man has taken something from the woman, but here the shoe is on the other foot. The man gave his seed and his soul, basically his life essence to this icy woman. The way this passage reads, its as if she has all the power over him. This imbalance in power will be a hallmark of this type of ‘winter love’ I want to discuss. Jeyne Poole Jeyne Poole is literally the stolen woman of Mance’s rendering of DW as the ‘Northman’s Daughter’, but she is definitely not in the vein of ‘hot-blooded’ stolen woman of our other examples. Is this because she is the ‘wrong’ stolen women, ie. Not Arya? Interestingly, Jeyne is consistently connected to the cold. Here’s the description of Jeyne in her wedding dress: Quote “The hearth was caked with cold black ash, the room unheated but for candles. Every time a door opened their flames would sway and shiver. The bride was shivering too. They had dressed her in white lambs-wool trimmed with lace. Her sleeves and bodice were sewn with freshwater pearls, and on her feet were white doeskin slippers—pretty, but not warm. Her face was pale, bloodless. A face carved of ice, Theon Greyjoy thought as he draped a fur-trimmed cloak about her shoulders. A corpse buried in the snow.” The Prince of Winterfell, A Dance with Dragons Can there be a character more associated with the cold than Jeyne Poole? She’s literally described as ‘not warm’ and 'shivering'. The room she is standing in is ‘cold’ and ‘unheated’ and she’s dressed in white, the colour of snow. The pearls are connected to House Stark, but they are also white like winter. Theon also makes comparisons between Jeyne and death, as her face is ‘carved of ice’ and she looks like a ‘corpse buried in the snow’. Lastly, she is described as ‘bloodless’, the opposite of the ‘hot-blooded’ imagery we’ve had up until now. Then consider this description from the Theon sample chapter from Winds of Winter, where Jeyne gets frostbite – she’s literally freezing: Quote “When the tip of her nose turned black from frostbite, and the one of the riders from the Night's Watch told her she might lose a piece of it, Jeyne had wept over that as well.” Theon sample chapter, Winds of Winter Then there is the obsession with bathing. While this is probably Ramsay wanting her to be ‘clean’, it could also be considered an effort on Jeyne’s part to make herself warm, especially considering this quote. Quote “So whenever Ramsay had an itch to bed his wife, it fell to Theon to borrow some servingwomen from Lady Walda or Lady Dustin and fetch hot water from the kitchens.” The Turncloak, A Dance with Dragons And then there is Theon’s description of his and Jeyne’s escape from Winterfell in Theon’s sample chapter: Quote "I saved her." The outer wall of Winterfell was eighty feet high, but beneath the spot where he had jumped the snows had piled up to a depth of more than forty. A cold white pillow. The girl had taken the worst of it. Jeyne, her name is Jeyne, but she will never tell them. Theon had landed on top of her, and broken some of her ribs. "I saved the girl," he said. "We flew." Theon sample chapter, Winds of Winter Let’s view that in conjunction with Tom of Sevenstreams song, ‘Off to Gulltown’. Quote “Off to Gulltown to see the fair maid, heigh-ho, heigh-ho. I’ll steal a sweet kiss with the point of my blade, heigh-ho, heigh-ho. I’ll make her my love and we’ll rest in the shade, heigh-ho, heigh-ho.” Arya II, A Storm of Swords When the narrator successfully steals the fair maid, the rest in the shade in the summer sun. This could not be more different for Jeyne and Theon; when Theon ‘steals’ Jeyne, they are not basking in the warmth of the summer sun, but instead freezing their arses off in a pile of snow! Poor, abused, tortured Jeyne cannot be more opposite to the vibrant Wife in DW. Her relationship with Ramsay and Theon reminds us of the imbalance in the relationship between the Night’s King and his Wife. She is not a ‘hot-blooded’ like the DW, is this because she is not a ‘true’ stolen woman because she is not the real Arya Stark? Val Continuing the theme of ‘cold’ falsely stolen women, let’s have a look at Val. Here is the most prominent physical description of Val from Jon’s perspective: Quote ‘Then Ghost emerged from between two trees, with Val beside him. They look as though they belong together. Val was clad all in white; white woolen breeches tucked into high boots of bleached white leather, white bearskin cloak pinned at the shoulder with a carved weirwood face, white tunic with bone fastenings. Her breath was white as well... but her eyes were blue, her long braid the color of dark honey, her cheeks flushed red from the cold. It had been a long while since Jon Snow had seen a sight so lovely.’ Jon XI, A Dance with Dragons Val’s description here is truly a winter maiden direct from SomL; she’s dressed in white, her breath is white, her eyes are blue. Taking the winter=death links, Val’s bone accessories maybe have connotations of death. Interestingly, her hair is the colour of ‘dark honey’ and this could possibly be related to the bear licking the honey from the hair of the summer maid in the 'Bear and the Maiden Fair'. However, it is still clear that Val is overwhelmingly compared to winter, with the same moon and blue eyes connection as the Night King’s Wife. Interestingly, further connections can be made between Val and the ‘winter maid’ as Val is also connected to the moon, while the winter maid has ‘moonglow’ in her hair. When Val tells Jon the time of her return to the Wall she states: Quote “Val glanced at the sky. The moon was but half-full. “Look for me on the first day of the full moon.” Jon VIII, A Dance with Dragons Bran Vras’ ‘Winterfell Huis Clos’ also makes some great comparisons between Val, Dalla and the Braavosi Moonsingers tradition, which can fit here. Val’s similarity to the ‘winter maid’ in SomL has lead some to see the song as an allegory for Jon’s love life, with Val as the winter maid and Ygritte as the autumn maid, but I think it is more complex than that. Ok, so now we’ve established that Val is connected to winter, in what way is she a ‘false’ stolen woman like the Other or Jeyne Poole? Going by the weirwood brooch she wears, Bran Vras has shown how brooches are used to indicate political allegiances, and therefore Val’s adoption of the weirwood brooch therefore signals her loyalty to the Old Gods and the wildling way of life, which includes the practice of men stealing their women. The fact that Stannis wants Val to be married to one of his southern supporters in the non-wildling way perhaps aborts attempts of Val becoming the ‘hot-blooded’ stolen woman of wildling tradition, and instead becoming a bartered pawn like Jeyne Poole. Stannis and Jon’s discussion of Val’s marriage is here: Quote “Good,” King Stannis said, “for the surest way to seal a new alliance is with a marriage. I mean to wed my Lord of Winterfell to this wildling princess.” Perhaps Jon had ridden with the free folk too long; he could not help but laugh. “Your Grace,” he said, “captive or no, if you think you can just give Val to me, I fear you have a deal to learn about wildling women. Whoever weds her had best be prepared to climb in her tower window and carry her off at swordpoint...” Jon XI, A Storm of Swords At first, it seems that Val will not become a ‘winter maid’, instead adhering to the wildling tradition. But then Mance’s life is threatened, and Val tries to intercede on his behalf: Quote “Val begged the king to spare him. She said she’d let some kneeler marry her and never slit his throat if only Mance could live.” Jon II, A Dance with Dragons As Mance is spared, and Val attends his "burning" without reaction, I suspect that Val will be forced to marry some ‘kneeler’, therefore abandoning the wildling tradition and becoming a ‘winter maid’, becoming ‘cold’ by not being part of the ‘summer’ love of the wildling tradition. Therefore I think the 'winter maid' love is opposed to the innocent consensual spring tradition, the 'hot-blooded' stealing summer love, and the 'trustworthy' autumn love. The winter love is associated with death, failed love, inequality of partners and the rejection of summer passion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evolett Posted March 5, 2016 Share Posted March 5, 2016 I certainly agree that Val, Jeyne Poole and the NK Other wife are all linked to the cold, winter and death. We know nothing more about the NK's wife but I think it's important to consider what these women might have been before they acquired the cold image. I'm thinking of Jeyne Poole in particular. Originally, before Ned's death and the events that led to her disposal in a brothel, we find nothing wintery about Jeyne. The colour of her eyes and hair don't match either. I think Theon's constant thoughts regarding Jeyne's wrong eye-colour are significant. They should be grey but are brown. Grey is very much assoicated with the Starks and winter. Dany's silver is also "as grey as a winter sea". Another example would be Balon Greyjoy, described thus: His eyes were flinty too, black and sharp, but the years and the salt winds had turned his hair the grey of a winter sea, flecked with whitecaps. Jeyne is Sansa's close companion in Winterfell and though not explicitly described as 'sunny', we get the impression she was a happy vivacious child. She shares Sansa's secrets, they gossip and giggle together and even seem to form a unit against Arya. Jeyne falls instantly in love with Lord Beric, whom she thinks handsome. That's interesting because Beric himself has fiery imagery around him - his lightning sigil, he has Thoros the red priest in his entourage, becomes a follower of the Red God and he's healed and is raised partially by fire magic, wields a fiery sword lit by his blood etc. Jeyne's transformation into winter begins after Ned's downfall and the disappearance of her father whom she worries about. She weeps endless tears (water). She's then removed from Sansa's chambers and Sansa's thoughts on Jeyne's absence are revealing: Quote Jeyne Poole and all her things were gone when Ser Mandon Moore returned Sansa to the high tower of Maegor’s Holdfast. No more weeping, she thought gratefully. Yet somehow it seemed colder with Jeyne gone, even after she’d built a fire. So it seems Jeyne did have some 'warm' qualities after all. It's colder with Jeyne gone, and Sansa feels this difference even after she builds a warming fire. Jeyne only turns into a cold frozen girl after being subjected to Ramsay and similar to other examples, Ramsay, in his innate cruelty appears to have drained the warmth from her. Also significant are the baths he demands she take before he shares her bed - as if to replace the warmth he's draining from her, he orders her to 'replenish' before he sleeps with her. As you've pointed out, she herself bathes frequently as if to keep warm (or regain some of her lost warmth). It seems to me that Ramsay is filling her with cold and darkness in as much as the NK did and that this is a result of his 'feeding on her warmth'. The NK/NK story does not tell us much about the Other wife. But if she was indeed an undead corpse, whom we can expect to be cold and devoid of fire, the question still remains - what was she before she became that? I don't doubt her taking of the NK's seed and soul represents a form of vengeance and would regard this aspect as a form of retaliation against the NK. Perhpas the black frost bite on Jeyne's nose is an indication that she too unknowingly takes part of Ramsay's soul in exchange for her warmth. Val - I had noted some points on Val and have also read Bran Vras excellent work on the wildling princess. Some things I've noticed include her odd eye colour change. Initially, they are grey (Val looked at him with pale grey eyes) but are described as blue on her return from the mission to find Tormund. Is this a mistake on Martin's part or intentional? Jarl, one of the climbers who perished while climbing the Wall was Val's 'latest pet'. “This beauty is her sister Val. Young Jarl beside her is her latest pet.” We get the impression that she made the choice (i.e. she did the stealing) and the wiki states she stole him, rather than the other way around. Before Val goes off on her mission, there's this exchange between her and Jon: “Before I go, one question. Did you kill Jarl, my lord?” “The Wall killed Jarl.”“So I’d heard. But I had to be sure.” “You have my word. I did not kill him.” Though I might have if things had gone otherwise. “This is farewell, then,” she said, almost playfully. It's almost as if Val is making sure Jon did not kill Jarl, which in wildling tradition, relates to the idea that the stronger victorious man is entitled to take over the woman whom the battle is fought over. As such, Jon, not having killed Jarl, is not entitled to Val and this seems to be important to Val's mission somehow. When Val returns, she's the perfect winter queen (barring the golden hair) Then Ghost emerged from between two trees, with Val beside him. They look as though they belong together. Val was clad all in white; white woolen breeches tucked into high boots of bleached white leather, white bearskin cloak pinned at the shoulder with a carved weirwood face, white tunic with bone fastenings. Her breath was white as well... but her eyes were blue, her long braid the color of dark honey, her cheeks flushed red from the cold. It had been a long while since Jon Snow had seen a sight so lovely.’ Again, is the change from grey eyes to blue eyes a mistake, or is it intentional and a hint to something? I've been thinking about this. The dark honey hair matches the sunny maid while the rest of her is very wintery. Apart from the weirwood brooch, the white bearskin cloak sticks out to me. It leads me to speculate on what might have gone down during her mission. First, I doubt Tormund was easy to convince but Val seems very confident of success before she leaves. Notice that Tormund himself is very connected to bears. His titles include 'Father to Bears and Husband to Bears, amongst others. There's his weird story of stealing a woman, having a rather ferocious sounding tumble with her (which he enjoyed very much) and she turned out to be a bear: “The woman had a terrible temper, and she put up quite the fight when I laid hands on her. It was all I could do to carry her home and get her out o’ them furs, but when I did, oh, she was hotter even than I remembered, and we had a fine old time, and then I went to sleep. Next morning when I woke the snow had stopped and the sun was shining, but I was in no fit state to enjoy it. All ripped and torn I was, and half me member bit right off, and there on me floor was a she-bear’s pelt. And soon enough the free folk were telling tales o’ this bald bear seen in the woods, with the queerest pair o’ cubs behind her. Har!” He slapped a meaty thigh. “Would that I could find her again. She was fine to lay with, that bear. Never was a woman gave me such a fight, nor such strong sons neither.” The Lady Bear: This bear lady is a really hot number, in fact, the snow stops and the sun shines the following morning as well. Interesting also, 'his member was bitten in half', which may be another way of describing 'giving seed and part of his soul'. He did give his seed - she had two bear cubs. Tormund wishes he could find her again and I'm just wondering if he did find her - in Val. Val was on a diffiuclt mission. She reassured herself that she was free by making sure Jon did not kill Jarl. Tormund himself seems to know quite a bit about Val's innate ferocity and capacity to deal with unruly men. Could she therefore have allowed herself to be stolen by Tormund, Husband to Bears, as a bribe to get him to comply with Jon's plans? Or did she rather seduce him and 'take him as a pet bear'? Is that why her eyes turn blue? Note her cheeks are flushed red - she is not as deathly pale as the NQ or Jeyne. Did she take part of Tormund's soul or warmth in return? Now Tormund himself is red-haired and he is also the "Mead-king of Ruddy Hall", evocative of a warm 'ruddy' pub. Now, I'm not too sure about this, but it's possible that Val the winter maid regains some warmth by possibly sleeping with Tormund and that her story is a progression on the corpse queen and Jeyne. I tend to think the 'autumn maid' may be the one who regains some of the 'heat' robbed from the sunny maid. Hints would be the summer maid and winter maid (summer turns straight into winter) grouped in Tyrion's arc, while the autumn maid verse occurrs in red-haired Catelyn's arc. I like the passage of time you've pointed out there and the reference to Lord Hoster's death. Tormund also happens to be the Father of Hosts - a point which is never explained. I'm certain that Lyanna regains this fire as well through her 'winter rose inheritance', which I take to represent 'kindling' Gilly's hot mustard flower that grows in a chink of the wall is the clue here, methinks). It's the kindling that's necessary to rekindle the sunny fire. From the stuff I've done on pearls and the Fisher Queens, I would say summer was abused and went straight to winter, skipping the autumn. My feeling is spring does not belong at the beginning of seasons of my love, but should be placed at the end of the song, when all is done. So, in reference to Lord Hoster dying and Brienne (of Evenstar) turning up at midnight to call Catelyn for her rendevous with Jamie, we perhaps see the order of the song as it is supposed to be: autumn merging into winter (instead of summer > winter), with Lord Hoster's death in it's proper place (death/winter) and Catelyn making efforts to exchange Jamie of the Golden Hair and Golden imagery for her daughters, one of which is a red-haired maiden. But back to Val - Ghost's sudden intimacy with her when she returns could be another hint at the similarity between her newly acquired (perhaps autumn) fire and Jon's inner 'frozen fire' which also binds him to Ghost. It's not the same but close. Blue eyes are the difference between her and Ghost but the rest is pretty close. Ghost's eyes are the red of autumn - like the weirwoods - Jon thinks of him as having a weirwood's eyes (in contrast to Mel). Val is marked by her golden hair to denote an inner fire but the blue eyes belong in the ice category. Actually, I think Val represents the original woman with the traits I ascribe to the Fisher Queens, who originally possessed intrinsic fire magic. Anyway, I'm rambling now, thinking on my feet on this one. I've been considering your observations on Ned and his link to winter and have to put some more thought into the contrasting views of fathering a child with Ashara or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeethemFly Posted March 6, 2016 Author Share Posted March 6, 2016 15 hours ago, Evolett said: Jeyne is Sansa's close companion in Winterfell and though not explicitly described as 'sunny', we get the impression she was a happy vivacious child. She shares Sansa's secrets, they gossip and giggle together and even seem to form a unit against Arya. Jeyne falls instantly in love with Lord Beric, whom she thinks handsome. That's interesting because Beric himself has fiery imagery around him - his lightning sigil, he has Thoros the red priest in his entourage, becomes a follower of the Red God and he's healed and is raised partially by fire magic, wields a fiery sword lit by his blood etc. Jeyne's transformation into winter begins after Ned's downfall and the disappearance of her father whom she worries about. She weeps endless tears (water). She's then removed from Sansa's chambers and Sansa's thoughts on Jeyne's absence are revealing: So it seems Jeyne did have some 'warm' qualities after all. It's colder with Jeyne gone, and Sansa feels this difference even after she builds a warming fire. Jeyne only turns into a cold frozen girl after being subjected to Ramsay and similar to other examples, Ramsay, in his innate cruelty appears to have drained the warmth from her. Also significant are the baths he demands she take before he shares her bed - as if to replace the warmth he's draining from her, he orders her to 'replenish' before he sleeps with her. As you've pointed out, she herself bathes frequently as if to keep warm (or regain some of her lost warmth). It seems to me that Ramsay is filling her with cold and darkness in as much as the NK did and that this is a result of his 'feeding on her warmth'. The NK/NK story does not tell us much about the Other wife. But if she was indeed an undead corpse, whom we can expect to be cold and devoid of fire, the question still remains - what was she before she became that? I don't doubt her taking of the NK's seed and soul represents a form of vengeance and would regard this aspect as a form of retaliation against the NK. Perhpas the black frost bite on Jeyne's nose is an indication that she too unknowingly takes part of Ramsay's soul in exchange for her warmth. I do like the links you made between warm Jeyne => cold Jeyne and the transformation that takes place. Is it somehow symbolic of the seasons? But if so, why? Why are some women 'frozen' after being stolen (ie. Jeyne) while the songs indicate that once the woman has been stolen the pair of lovers bask in the summer sun? And why are some lovers warm (think Ygritte) and others frozen. I wonder if it's something to do with transgression. If the stealing somehow included a *sin* of some sort, whether that be societal or moral or whatever, could that cause the woman to go 'cold'? Is that why Jeyne is cold, because Ramsay took too much from her in his abuse? Could that explain Val's 'coldness' because of the breaking of Wildling tradition to agree to a southern marriage? I agree with you, that the stuff with Jarl indicates that Val was taking part in wildling stealing traditions (I'll come back to this point in a minute), and by abandoning said traditions, has Stannis literally taken too much from her? Here is a description of Val at Mance's 'burning': Quote "Val stood beside him, tall and fair. They had crowned her with a simple circlet of dark bronze, yet she looked more regal in bronze than Stannis did in gold. Her eyes were grey and fearless, unflinching. Beneath an ermine cloak, she wore white and gold. Her honey-blond hair had been done up in a thick braid that hung over her right shoulder to her waist. The chill in the air had put color in her cheeks." - Jon III, A Dance with Dragons Now this passage really confuses me, because she seems to be a jumble of summer and winter. She's linked to darkness with the 'dark bronze' and this is contrasted to Stannis' gold. Here she also has the 'grey' eyes. However, she is wearing 'white and gold' a symbol of both winter and summer respectively. Again reference is made to her summer maid 'honey-blond hair'. And then there is this line 'the chill in the air had put colour in her cheeks' = the cold is literally making her warm. This could be linked to your frozen fire theory, or the idea that Val is an 'autumn' love, somehow recapturing the heat stolen from her. On the topic of Val's eyes, I'm tempted not to read too much into it. I have grey eyes myself, and in different light they can appear grey, blue and sometimes even green! And now to Jarl, here's the quote you supplied: Quote "Before I go, one question. Did you kill Jarl, my lord?" "The Wall killed Jarl." "So I heard. But I had to be sure." "You have my word. I did not kill him." Though I might have if things had gone otherwise. "This is farewell, then," she said, almost playfully. I agree that Val was checking whether Jon killed Jarl, in the wildling tradition. However, I think it's quite striking that The Wall killed Jarl. Going back to my suggestion about Ned being 'winter' for Ashara if he was the father of her baby and the reason for her suicide, Jarl seems to literally be killed by winter - is there such a prominent symbol for winter in the series than the Wall? I'm thinking on my feet here, so I will go away and think about this more. 15 hours ago, Evolett said: “The woman had a terrible temper, and she put up quite the fight when I laid hands on her. It was all I could do to carry her home and get her out o’ them furs, but when I did, oh, she was hotter even than I remembered, and we had a fine old time, and then I went to sleep. Next morning when I woke the snow had stopped and the sun was shining, but I was in no fit state to enjoy it. All ripped and torn I was, and half me member bit right off, and there on me floor was a she-bear’s pelt. And soon enough the free folk were telling tales o’ this bald bear seen in the woods, with the queerest pair o’ cubs behind her. Har!” He slapped a meaty thigh. “Would that I could find her again. She was fine to lay with, that bear. Never was a woman gave me such a fight, nor such strong sons neither.” On the topic of Tormund and Val, I think it's entirely plausible that it could all have gone down between them as you've said. The comment about 'Ruddy Hall' was also interesting, as when you say someone has a 'ruddy' complexion, you are saying they have a red complexion. Does this somehow link to autumn, or to summer? Also of interest about Tormund's whole 'bear' story, is that several months ago I remember reading something on this forum that suggested that the 'bear' is actually Maege Mormont, and some of her children are therefore Tormund's. Perhaps that's interesting in relation to Jeor's comment about Maege: Quote "You are not the only one touched by this war. Like as not, my sister is marching in your brother's host, her and those daughters of hers, dressed in men’s mail. Maege is a hoary old snark, stubborn, short-tempered, and willful. Truth be told, I can hardly stand to be around the wretched woman, but that does not mean my love for her is any less than the love you bear your half sisters." - Jon IX, A Game of Thrones I'm not sure I'm convinced about the Maege = the Bear theory, but this quote is quite interesting. She she's to be in the mould of the 'frozen ice' woman, and yet Jeor loves her with a brother's love. What type of love is this? I doubt we can know for sure what the NK's wife was before she became an Other, all we know is that the NK was the one doing the giving, and she the taking. I'm halfway through LmL's bloodstone compendium atm, and this story hasn't come up yet, but I still think it could be yet another example of the 'one partner steals all the life from the other' trope that LmL thinks is indicative of the astronomical theory he is presenting. Therefore, does these women fitting into 'seasons' some how come into this? Maybe: 'Spring' love = innocence before the stealing, before the comet, perhaps a consensual meeting between the two (think the sun and moon as husband and wife) 'Summer' love = the relationship in the moment of stealing. Think the comet just as it impacts as a 'burning sword' and the comet 'drinking the sun's fire'. This is the type of 'summer' that appears in the 'Dornishman's Wife' and 'Off to Gulltown'. 'Autumn' love = the lover who 'recovers' some heat in some way. I think this is an area we really need to explore more, these hot/cold women. 'Winter' love = the destroyed moon, Jeyne Poole, Ned and Ashara (although this could more accurately be deemed 'False Spring' love). Again, thinking on my feet. Lastly, I just want to mention this quote: Quote "And when the Thief was in the Moonmaid, that was a propitious time for a man to steal a woman, Ygritte insisted. "Like the night you stole me. The Thief was bright that night." - Jon VI, A Storm of Swords LmL links this to the Azor Ahai, Nissa Nissa story, but does it have any relevance to out discussion? So far, 'stealing' has been linked to the power of fire and summer, so why does Ygritte (and by extension the other wildlings) think it is propitious to steal a woman at that time. Is it perhaps that the 'Thief was bright' = ie. he is the 'hot-blooded' one? I don't have an answer to this, and will give it more thought! Hope to hear more of your thoughts soon, and hope I can come up with something more concrete! I might have a look at Ygritte next! Edit: A comment on another thread really got me thinking. Someone described blue winter roses as a 'promise of spring'. If R+L=J, is Jon Spring, or is Lyanna herself spring? If Lyanna is spring, is 'summer' love essentially a stealing of spring's innocence? I don't know, but it's an interesting thought! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evolett Posted March 6, 2016 Share Posted March 6, 2016 Before we continue, I've summarized some of our thoughts and findings so far SUMMARY --------------------------------------- The Dornishman’s Wife (DmW) The DmW is associated with summer, heat, sunlight her kisses are warmer than spring she is fair as the sun – this relates to the verse from Seasons of my Love “I loved a maid as fair as summer with sunlight in her hair” her voice is sweet as a peach she is ‘forbidden fruit’ the DmW is stolen by the central character (CC) of the song the Dornishman’s wife is the Northman’s daughter - (Mance’s version) – implies the wife has Northern roots. By inference, the DmW is a sunny maid with warm qualities who originates from the cold and wintery North.She’s thus a maid of both summer and winter. A prime example of this mixture of summer and winter is Val (blonde hair, flushed cheeks against wintery outfit, weirwood brooch). Beneath an ermine cloak, she wore white and gold. Her honey-blond hair had been done up in a thick braid that hung over her right shoulder to her waist. The chill in the air had put color in her cheeks." Parallels between Northern Spearwives and Dornish Women in relation to the Northman’s Daughter and the Dornishman’s wife both spearwives and Dornish women are independent ‘unbowed’ women both take up the spear / are warrior women when the occasion arises the Rhoynish sun was Nymeria’s contribution to the Martell sigil. This makes the sun female the spear in the sigil is thus the male counterpart the spear transfixing the sun can also be interpreted as sexual metaphor which leads us back to the central character who ‘tastes’ the Dornishman’s wife and the wife (the sun) who takes up the spear (male) for war AND who is penetrated by the spear (sex) the Dornishman’s wife/Northman’s daughter is both Spearwife and ‘Speared Wife’. The central character and the husband in the DmW notice the CC and the Dornishman (the husband) play the same role – both ‘spear’ the wife the CC ‘steals’ a forbidden woman and ‘tastes’ her we get the impression that stealing the DmW is a risk well worth taking – he laughs and sings as he dies. Death does not matter because he’s tasted the DmW and Mance mentions tasting the Dornishman's wife in terms of his achievements in life. the CC dies happy, in darkness, his brothers kneel and pray him a prayer The Husband: the husband’s sword has a song of its own The sword’s bite is as sharp and cold as a leech The husband takes revenge on the CC – he kills him ------------------------------------------------------------ Draining the sun’s warmth 1] The Spear and the Sun The male Martell spear that spears the female Martell sun suggests that the spear partakes of or drains the sun’s warmth. Indeed, a metal speartip (or a metal sword) will heat up upon being placed in fire – it absorbs the sun’s fire. Thus, by stealing and tasting the sunny DmW, the CC partakes of / acquires her warmth. 2] The “The Bear and the Maiden Fair” has similar connotations: in this section, the bear smells honey in the summer air: He smelled the scent on the summer air! He sniffed and roared and smelled it there!Honey on the summer air! …… Then he takes the fair maid against her will – she kicks and struggles but the bear licks the honey from her hair She kicked and wailed, the maid so fair, But he licked the honey from her hair. Her hair! Her hair! He licked the honey from her hair! The bear sniffs her out, he smells the honey (sunlight, summer), roars, catches her, licks her honey, licks her sunlight / warmth / takes her ‘fire’. But in this case, after struggling against it, the fair maiden succumbs and the last stanza gives us the impression that she dances off happily with the bear after the licking. (Interesting also - Jorah the Bear kisses Dany, is obviously in love with her but she does not allow him to 'lick the honey off her hair'.) Note in this context, Val has honey-blond hair. 3] Jeyne Poole is associated with warmth before her father’s death and before her marriage to Ramsay Bolton. After her marriage and violation by Ramsay, she becomes cold, frozen and wintery. 4] The Thief and the Moonmaid And when the Thief was in the Moonmaid, that was a propitious time for a man to steal a woman, Ygritte insisted. “Like the night you stole me. The Thief was bright that night.” Ygritte is ‘kissed by fire’. Her hair is not blond but red. The principle is the same however. She insists Jon stole her when the bright Thief was in the Moonmaid. Here we have a bright Thief – the ‘bright’ perhaps relating to the ‘hot blood’ of the man and the bear overcome by passion by the smell of honey in the summer air. Regarding the Moonmaid – remember that the moon does not shine of its own accord. Moonlight consists of reflected sunlight (predominantly) and starlight with a little bit of earthlight thrown in. When the bear licks the honey off or when the spear absorbs the heat (and light) of sunlight, the maid is left devoid of warmth. She’s left with colder starlight and darkness > she becomes a Night’s Queen, an Other bride with pale white skin (no warmth) and blue star eyes. 5] The Gulltown song reflects much of the above Off to Gulltown to see the fair maid, heigh-ho, heigh-ho. I’ll steal a sweet kiss with the point of my blade, heigh-ho, heigh-ho. I’ll make her my love and we’ll rest in the shade, heigh-ho, heigh-ho. -------------------------------------------------- Hypothesis 1: the central character in the DmW steals the DmW/NmD to acquire her warmth, her sunlight, her inner fire, which we can assume has some magical property attached to it. There must be something special about it because it’s a risk worth taking. Hypothesis 2: The Night’s King probably also takes the corpse bride’s inner fire and replaces this with this seed and with darkness (his soul / shade / shadow). The NQ’s taking of his seed and shadow result in the birth of ‘Other sons’ who avenge their mother by visiting destruction on mankind. Hypothesis 3: Swords / spears drain heat from the sun / sunny maiden. Re Smiling Knight analysis: Dawn, said to be 'alive with light' is a stand-in for the 'spearwife' infused with inner warmth/fiery characteristic - actually a direct mirroring of Nissa Nissa's strength and soul (her light) infusing Lightbringer. Dawn is definitely a very sharp sword, perhaps its bite is also cold and sharp as a leech –a leech drains blood from its host - Dawn / LB leeches (drains) the warmth, soul from a woman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evolett Posted March 6, 2016 Share Posted March 6, 2016 On 3.3.2016 at 9:28 PM, SeethemFly said: The other songs that Mance sung are as follows: Two Hearts that Beat as One We know none of the lyrics, but it seems to be a generic love song. The only other time it has been sung is at the marriage between Ambrose Butterwell and Lady Frey in 'The Mystery Night'. Was this a loving marriage? Or a marriage of convenience? Fair Maids of Summer Although we have no other example of it being performed, or any of its lyrics, the "Fair Maids of Summer" links back to the 'Dornishman's Wife' and all the other summer connections we have made. The Night that Ended A song about when the Night's Watch met the Others at the Battle of the Dawn. Links back to our Night's King/ Other Wife links and even the line 'his brother's knelt by him and prayed him a prayer'. If we are arguing that 'The Dornishman's Wife' is Lyanna, this could perhaps also be evocative of Jon's future role in the Battle for the Dawn II. Brave Danny Flint A song about a woman who joined the Night's Watch but was subsequently raped and murdered. Could be connected to the previous 'Night's Watch' theme found in 'The Night that Ended' and 'Iron Lances', but Danny Flint could also be an example of the 'wild' women we have been discussing. Also, the surname 'Flint' is interesting considering your ideas about Lyanna's fire ancestry. The Rat Cook About the Rat Cook. Relates to 'Frey Pie'. Interestingly, Wyman Manderly asks for this song therefore interrupting Mance's intended programme, and possibly the message he is trying to deliver with the songs. The Dornishman's Wife Here, Mance sings the adapted 'Northman's Daughter. Perhaps it's just about the intended stealing of Fake Arya, but it's proximity to 'The Night that Ended' and 'Brave Danny Flint' perhaps connects it back to Jon and Lyanna. "Marching Song" Ramsay then asks Mance to sing a song about Stannis trudging through the snow. Another interjection, so probably doesn't have anything to do with Mance's message. Iron Lances This is apparently a "rousing" song about which little is known. It is sung on several occasions. Interestingly, if Ramsay hadn't interrupted Mance's programme, this would have come after the Dornishman's Wife (I think - I'm relating this to an online order I've found!) and is therefore perhaps linked to the central character's death. The Winter Maid A supposedly sad song is now sung. It's apparently a song from the North, it only occuring in the North. How old is it? Could it directly be about Lyanna or another 'wild' woman? The fact it's sad might suggest a connection to Lyanna. The Queen Took off her Sandal, the King took off his Crown/Bear and the Maiden Fair Lady Dustin then asks for something more jolly. Mance sings these two songs. It also suggests it not anything to do with Mance's message. The Maids that Bloom at Spring Last song that Mance sings. The lyrics are not known, but maybe it has something to do with the other 'sun' connections we've made. Interestingly, it is known to be performed at one other occasion, by Tom of Sevenstreams at the Peach (an inn and brothel in the Stoney Sept). Again links back to the idea of the forbidden fruit/the Dornishman's wife. These songs can perhaps be grouped according to the "Seasons of my Love". That would give us approx. four sets of three. The entire unordered list would be: Two Hearts that Beat as One Fair Maids of Summer The Night that Ended Brave Danny Flint The Rat Cook The Dornishman's Wife The Northman’s Daughter "Marching Song" Iron Lances The Winter Maid The Queen Took off her Sandal, the King took off his Crown Bear and the Maiden Fair The Maids that Bloom at Spring Beginning with Summer (I loved a maid as fair as summer, with sunlight in her hair) The Fair maids of summer The Dornishman’s Wife Iron Lances The sunny fair maid is stolen by the central character in the Dornishman's wife. He tastes her with his 'iron lance' and is killed by the Dornishman who also wields an 'iron lance'; In reference to the Martell sigil, both iron lances represent the spear, while the fair maid of summer is the Rhoynish sun. Autumn Brave Danny Flint The Northman’s Daughter The Rat Cook Brave Danny Flint is the Northman's daughter. She has a fiery aspect (the flint) - but this is not as strong as the sunlight of the summer maiden. It's useful in starting a fire though. Danny Flint is stolen by the King or the Prince or both, violated by them and passed on to the NW for more of the same (Tysha scenario). The Rat Cook Northman takes revenge by killing the prince and feeding him to his father. He is cursed to forever eat his own young. This is where Jon Crow's interpretation of the Rat Cook story becomes relevant. He sees the Rat Cook as a representation of weirwoods that feed on their children (the children of the forest, where "child of the forest" can be interpreted as "born of the trees"). Weirwoods with their distinctive red leaves recall leaves that turn red in autumn and though we are yet to figure out the 'autumn maid', my guess is the weirwoods have a lot to do with that. This set is the most difficult to explain at the moment. Winter The Bear and the Maiden Fair The Winter Maid The Marching song The gist of the Bear and the Maiden Fair is a beauty and the beast story. The bear smells the honey in the maidens hair, captures her, licks the honey off her hair. She struggles against his advances but appears to dance off with the bear thereafter. Now, I think the last part of the song is misleading. Jorah the bear provides us with two examples of his 'maidens' refusing him. His first wife does accept him as a husband but she soon becomes disenchanted with him and deserts him in favour of becoming a concubine to a different man. Likewise, Dany succumbs to his first kiss but is very unhappy about it and she later banishes him from her court. She takes Daario as a lover instead and later marries Hizdar. The connotations of the word 'dance' are also interesting. The fair maid who dances off with the bear in the song may be 'dancing to his tune', i.e. not following her wishes but succumbing to his. The word dance is often used as a metaphor for combat, war (dance of the dragons) and in relation to the dead (the dead are dancing). So I think we have to be careful about associating the maiden's 'dancing off' with the bear as indicative of consent. Then of course it's also a beauty and the beast story and we have the additional example of Jamie saving Brienne from the bear in the pit. Having licked the honey off the maiden's hair (taking her warmth), the maiden looses her golden sunlight and is left with 'moonglow' in her hair. She becomes a winter maid filled with shadow. The marching song sounds like it might be a song sung by soldiers marching to war which fits in with Stannis trudging through the snow with his army. That Ramsay asks for a song about Stannis marching through the snow is interesting because it highlights the snow and leads me to think that together with the winter maid /corpse bride / shadow-taking-vengeance connotations, the song is meant to indicate the Others / white walkers, cold sons of the Night's Queen who march in retribution against the men who steal their mothers. Spring The Maids that Bloom in Spring Two Hearts that beat as one The Queen took off her Sandal, the King took off his Crown The Night that Ended We've seen that maids blooming in spring is very likely indicative of consensual love by both partners - their two hearts therefore beat as one. Two Hearts beat as One was sung at the Red Wedding, as was The Queen took off her Sandal, the King took off his Crown. Edmure was delighted with his bride. We don't know if Roslin was delighted by Edmure - she knew what was going to happen and was quite distraught, weeping on the way to the bedding. So it's difficult to say. Can't say anything about the marriage between Ambrose Butterwell and Lady Frey in 'The Mystery Night' either since I have not read that book. But if it's anything like Roose's marriage to Walda Frey, perhaps also a parallel, then it appears both parties are happy with their marriage. Roose got his silver, his wife endears herself to him, especially because she 'squeals' in bed and Lady Walda herself is thrilled to be Lady Bolton, chosen over her numerous prettier female relatives who still don't have husbands. Roslin herself fits the 'maid that blooms in spring'. She's an innocent maiden, green in respect of everything concerning a relationship and one of Lord Frey's prettiest flowers. Her name Roslin also hints at a flower - a rose. The Queen took off her Sandal, the King took off his Crown. I think this is a very important metaphor in respect of the conditions required a Long Night. We can look at it in terms of both parties giving up something. The King giving up his crown could imply giving up his gold - golden sunlight, or never again taking a woman's warmth / sunlight. The Queen taking off her sandal is a bit more difficult but my guess is the sandal is a reference to warging and skinchanging, both of which are maternal traits. Wearing boots, shoes, footwear in general are often used as an analogy to warging and my personal studies of the subject suggest warging and skinchanging are related to the creation / existence of white walkers. Both King and Queen therefore have to give up these practices so that the planet can be healed and the 'night can end'. Ingredients for success would be all the conditions implied by the song titles - consensual relationships, genuine love between the two (two hearts beating as one), letting go off the negatives that perpetuate the cycle and finally ending the Long Night. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeethemFly Posted March 6, 2016 Author Share Posted March 6, 2016 That's great, it really helps us get our thoughts straight! Ok, just a comment on 'The Queen took off her Sandal, the King took off his Crown', I like your idea about the sandal in relation to warging. If you think about it, the 'sandal' and the 'crown' could be the Ice and Fire sides of magic respectively. The sandal warging, skinchanging (being a literal 'skin' of a foot) as you suggested, and the 'crown' being linked to gold=summer=fire and maybe even the dragons. In the aftermath of the Battle for Dawn, magic will be removed from the world, with Ice giving up their 'sandals' and Fire their 'crowns' to make 'Spring' happen. Now, I thought I'd add something else to this discussion: Azor Ahai and Nissa Nissa, and show how it's just reinforcing our idea of a man 'stealing' the heat of a woman. Quote “A hundred days and a hundred nights [Azor Ahai] laboured on the third blade, and as it glowed white-hot in the sacred fires, he summoned his wife. ‘Nissa Nissa,’ he said to her, for that was her name, ‘bare your breast, and know that I love you best of all that is in this world.’ She did this thing, why I cannot say, and Azor Ahai thrust the smoking sword through her living heart. It is said that her cry of anguish and ecstasy left a crack across the face of the moon, but her blood and her soul and her strength and her courage all went into the steel. Such is the tale of the forging of Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes." Davos I, A Clash of Kings So I think LmL's theory on the astronomical origins of this theory are very convincing, but that does not mean it cannot have an effect on our theory, and how George uses the seasons to indicate different types of relationships. It can fit both theories! Here we have Azor Ahai forging the third Lightbringer. It's noted that it grows 'white-hot' in the scared fires before Azor Ahai summons Nissa Nissa. Compare this to the line in the Jon chapter when he and Ygritte are discussing the stars, and that a propitious time for a stealing is when the Thief is in the Moonmaid. Ygritte states that that was the case when Jon stole her - 'the Thief was bright that night' - just how Azor Ahai is 'bright' or 'white-hot' as he prepares to steal Nissa Nissa's soul. The point is also made that Azor Ahai loves Nissa Nissa best in all the world. Romantic imagery is overlaid on this scene, just as it is in the 'Dornishman's Wife'. This story can then be filed away with all the other 'romantic' stealing stories we have. Then Azor Ahai stabs Nissa Nissa with the sword. This not only recalls all the attempted stealings with a sword, but I think this can be linked to 'Off to Gulltown' - 'I'll steal a sweet kiss with the point of my blade.' In OtG, something is also stolen from the woman, just as Azor Ahai steals Nissa Nissa's life essence with a sword. Then Nissa Nissa lets out a cry of 'anguish and ecstasy' = there is something sexual in this, and is perhaps linked to all the other romance/stealing songs. Then we have all of Nissa Nissa's soul going into the sword = confirms our theory, the men 'steal' more than just the woman herself. Now for the interesting bit. What does Nissa Nissa's death produce? Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes. Compare this to our version of the 'autumn' maid who retains some of her heat = 'I loved a maid as red as autumn". Nissa Nissa's life essence has survived in the sword! It's not Azor Ahai's sword, but Nissa Nissa's, because it is her recovered heat that has survived! I looked up an in-world example of 'stealing' and I came across Asha Greyjoy and Qarl the Maid, and it was amazing how similar to 'Dornishman's Wife' and everything else we've discovered it is! Asha is obviously Balon Greyjoy's daughter, and Qarl is a thrall grandson, making them unequals. It's quite long, so I've cut the irrelevant for us stuff. I'll do a quick analysis of each section. Quote "Get out," she told him. "I want to be alone." "What you want is me." He tried to kiss her. Asha pushed him away. "Touch me again and I'll—" "What?" He drew his dagger. "Undress yourself, girl." "Fuck yourself, you beardless boy." - The Wayward Bride, A Dance with Dragons Like in 'Off to Gulltown', Qarl attempts to 'steal a kiss with the point of his blade'. This is the beginning of a traditional stealing. Quote "Do it," she spat, "and I'll kill you in your sleep." - The Wayward Bride, A Dance with Dragons Asha threatens to fight Qarl, she has spirit, she is 'hot-blooded'. They then sleep together. Quote "I am a woman wed," she reminded him, afterward. "You've despoiled me, you beardless boy. My lord husband will cut your balls off and put you in a dress." - The Wayward Bride, A Dance with Dragons Here, Asha worries that she's been shamed by sleeping with Qarl. She also threatens Qarl with her husband, the 'Dornishman' of this scenario. Quote The room was cold. Asha rose from Galbart Glover's bed and took off her torn clothes. The jerkin would need fresh laces, but her tunic was ruined. I never liked it anyway. She tossed it on the flames. The rest she left in a puddle by the bed. Her breasts were sore, and Qarl's seed was trickling down her thigh. She would need to brew some moon tea or risk bringing another kraken into the world. - The Wayward Bride, A Dance with Dragons Asha wakes up after sleeping with Qarl to a cold room. The heat of earlier is gone, and she discovers her clothes have been torn by Qarl, and she destroys them in the fires. Although they are a superficial thing, they are a part of her that has been destroyed by Qarl. Notably, they are finally destroyed in fire. Quote When she slipped back beneath the furs, Qarl was asleep. "Now your life is mine. Where did I put my dagger?" Asha pressed herself against his back and slid her arms about him. On the isles he was known as Qarl the Maid, in part to distinguish him from Qarl Shepherd, Queer Qarl Kenning, Qarl Quickaxe, and Qarl the Thrall, but more for his smooth cheeks. When Asha had first met him, Qarl had been trying to raise a beard. "Peach fuzz," she had called it, laughing. Qarl confessed that he had never seen a peach, so she told him he must join her on her next voyage south. It had still been summer then; Robert sat the Iron Throne, Balon brooded on the Seastone Chair, and the Seven Kingdoms were at peace. Asha sailed the Black Wind down the coast, trading. They called at Fair Isle and Lannisport and a score of smaller ports before reaching the Arbor, where the peaches were always huge and sweet. "You see," she'd said, the first time she'd held one up against Qarl's cheek. When she made him try a bite, the juice ran down his chin, and she had to kiss it clean. That night they'd spent devouring peaches and each other, and by the time daylight returned Asha was sated and sticky and as happy as she'd ever been. Was that six years ago, or seven? Summer was a fading memory, and it had been three years since Asha last enjoyed a peach. She still enjoyed Qarl, though. The captains and the kings might not have wanted her, but he did. - The Wayward Bride, A Dance with Dragons Okay, so first of all, Qarl and Asha are in bed and she reaches for her dagger. She is a spearwife through and through! Now we have numerous comparisons between peaches and Qarl. He literally has 'Peach fuzz' on his face, he is the forbidden fruit in every sense of the word. After Qarl says he has never eaten a peach, Asha takes him away with her to a place where 'the peaches were always huge and sweet', literally turning him into her peach. One is held up against Qarl's cheek as if for comparison, and she kisses peach juice off his face. They devour peaches and each other - Qarl almost becomes interchangeable with the peach. Asha also makes clear that this took place in the summer, and 'summer was a fading memory'. Does that explain the cold room that Asha wakes up in - her relationship to Qarl is slowly being transformed into a cold, winter 'steal' as opposed to the hot-blooded summer one? We then get this: Quote "My sweet lady," he murmured after, in a voice still thick with sleep. "My sweet queen." No, Asha thought, I am no queen, nor shall I ever be. "Go back to sleep." She kissed his cheek, padded across Galbart Glover's bedchamber, and threw the shutters open. The moon was almost full, the night so clear that she could see the mountains, their peaks crowned with snow. Cold and bleak and inhospitable, but beautiful in the moonlight. Their summits glimmered pale and jagged as a row of sharpened teeth. The foothills and the smaller peaks were lost in shadow. - The Wayward Bride, a Dance with Dragons Qarl still sees Asha as his sweet summer maid, but Asha ignores him and goes to look outside, which is 'cold and bleak and inhospitable'. Asha is in the midst of winter, whereas Qarl still thinks it's summer. Is this a summer love being drained of his heat? I'm going to have a think about Ygritte and Gilly next, and hopefully get some more textual support for our theories. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rawrmawr Posted March 6, 2016 Share Posted March 6, 2016 I believe that the songs are put in purposely with enough ambiguity to make us come up with different theories on them. I think they are most likely just vague songs based on human nature which would ultimately come around again and be suitable in many situations. Given that, I still think that Jon's frequent references to the Dornishmen's wife is a pointer to him and Ygritte's relationship. If R+L=J is true, which it is, that would make Jon a dornishman himself, being born at the Tower of Joy. Again I would stress that these things are written with medium-like ambiguity to make theories applicable to them. I wouldn't dwell on them too much, they are just good writing and world-building by Gurm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evolett Posted March 7, 2016 Share Posted March 7, 2016 2 hours ago, SeethemFly said: That's great, it really helps us get our thoughts straight! Ok, just a comment on 'The Queen took off her Sandal, the King took off his Crown', I like your idea about the sandal in relation to warging. If you think about it, the 'sandal' and the 'crown' could be the Ice and Fire sides of magic respectively. The sandal warging, skinchanging (being a literal 'skin' of a foot) as you suggested, and the 'crown' being linked to gold=summer=fire and maybe even the dragons. In the aftermath of the Battle for Dawn, magic will be removed from the world, with Ice giving up their 'sandals' and Fire their 'crowns' to make 'Spring' happen. Exactly my meaning! 2 hours ago, SeethemFly said: Now for the interesting bit. What does Nissa Nissa's death produce? Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes. Compare this to our version of the 'autumn' maid who retains some of her heat = 'I loved a maid as red as autumn". Nissa Nissa's life essence has survived in the sword! It's not Azor Ahai's sword, but Nissa Nissa's, because it is her recovered heat that has survived! Super observation. And with the material you have presented on Asha, I would say autumn turns the tables on the men. Notice that Qarl is Qarl the maid. He now has the Peach Fuzz, wheras the peach was formerly in the female domain. Asha is the one who pulls a dagger on him, not the other way round. And though the room grows cold after their night together, look what she decides to do .... she intends drinking moon tea to kill his seed and presumably his get rid of a potential shadow as well. Next they devour peaches together, recalling two hearts that beat as one, and summer is fading a fading memory, implying that the summer scenario is no longer relevant, it is ending and making way for something new / autumn. Now Val becomes clearer > like Asha who has the upper hand over Qarl the Maid, Val took Jarl as her pet. Asha calls the shots, so does Val. Tormund tell Jon that Val can hold her own against any overly eager man. And Ygritte tells Jon she would do the same here> Quote “And what if they do? I’d sooner be stolen by a strong man than be given t’ some weakling by my father.” “You say that, but how can you know? What if you were stolen by someone you hated?” “He’d have t’ be quick and cunning and brave t’ steal me. So his sons would be strong and smart as well. Why would I hate such a man as that?” “Maybe he never washes, so he smells as rank as a bear.” “Then I’d push him in a stream or throw a bucket o’ water on him. Anyhow, men shouldn’t smell sweet like flowers.” “What’s wrong with flowers?” “Nothing, for a bee. For bed I want one o’ these.” Ygritte made to grab the front of his breeches. Jon caught her wrist. “What if the man who stole you drank too much?” he insisted. “What if he was brutal or cruel?” He tightened his grip to make a point. “What if he was stronger than you, and liked to beat you bloody?”“I’d cut his throat while he slept. You know nothing, Jon Snow.” Then she says the following Quote “A man can own a woman or a man can own a knife,” Ygritte told him, “but no man can own both. Every little girl learns that from her mother.” She raised her chin defiantly and gave her thick red hair a shake. So the autumn maid is the defiant woman who will not simply succumb to the spear . The man can own either the knife or the woman but not both. She will not be dancing to his tune and all this with a clever nod at the bear and at Ygrittes red hair. I have to call it a day for tonight but this is coming along really well ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongRider Posted March 7, 2016 Share Posted March 7, 2016 On 3/2/2016 at 3:23 PM, Evolett said: It occurred to me to check up on the gillyflower after which Gilly was named. I had never heard of it and thought it an invention by Martin. But it turns out to be one of several scented flowering plants such as the carnation and the wallflower. So I looked up wallflower and burst out laughing ... I'll quote directly from the Encyclopedia Britannica online: Wallflower (genus Erysimum), genus of about 180 species of plants belonging to the mustard family (Brassicaceae), so named for their habit of growing from chinks in walls. (source) On 3/4/2016 at 3:30 PM, Evolett said: Ygritte tells Jon which clarifies the conditions under which a spearwife is stolen: You know nothing, Jon Snow. Daughters are taken, not wives. On 3/3/2016 at 2:57 PM, SeethemFly said: Just a quick detour to Gilly. Here is the first description of Gilly we get from Jon's perspective: "One of Craster's women was backed up against the mud-spattered wall of the keep... The woman regarded them with nervous eyes. She was younger than he'd thought at first. A girl of fifteen or sixteen years, he judged, dark hair plastered across a gaunt face by the falling rain, her bare feet muddy to the ankles." In this first description, Gilly is clearly a "wild woman" of the Dornishman's wife/Lyanna/Ygritte model. Firstly, she is directly connected to nature, being "muddy to the ankles". Like Lyanna, she also has "dark hair". Her age is also striking - described as 15 or 16, Ahh Gilly. I don't see Gilly as wild woman, but certainly a woman who despite her name is not a true wallflower. She approached Sam and asked him to take her away from Craster. She was not to be stolen as a spearwife, but acted on her own to get the NW to take her away from Craster and save her unborn baby. She did tell Sam and Jon both that she would be their wife, but that was her desperation talking, and both refused her (wisely) as well. This fits with what Ygriette tells Jon "Daughters are taken, not wives." To understand Gilly's story is understand that she was not taken by away by Sam, but went on her own free will. In fact, it takes two of Craster's other wives and Gilly to convince Sam to take her to the Wall after the mutiny. There is a song associated with Gilly and Sam. When they are sheltering in an abandoned longhall several days after leaving, Gilly asks Sam for a song and he sings the hymn “The Song of the Seven”, a gentle hymn about how the various aspects of the Gods care for the little children. This is an interesting choice as it's not a to be associated with the songs mentioned above, but one about protection of the innocent little children, including Gilly's unnamed babe that was with them. Gilly is also different from other wildings as the it's not the Wilding's tradition of stealing wives that is the marriage imagrey surrounding her and Sam. It is the groom putting the cloak of his house on the bride's shoulders during the wedding; the custom known south of the Wall. Sam cloaks Gilly on first meeting so she can go to Jon without being noticed as Craster wife so much. Later, in the longhall, Sam and Gilly sleep under Sam's cloak. So there is no true spearwife stealing imagrey associated with them. And then, much later, it is Gilly who initiates their first sexual encounter. So Gilly is the wilding woman who is very different from the other wilding women mentioned, as well as the Northern woman. She's a woman who wants to protect her baby and wants to spend as much time with Sam as she can. She creates a temporary (for now anyway) family unit that was so different from the one she came from. So I don't see the above mentioned songs as applying to Gilly, but the hymn Sam sings fits right in with their predicament. Now, back to read more of this fascinating thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeethemFly Posted March 7, 2016 Author Share Posted March 7, 2016 17 hours ago, LongRider said: Ahh Gilly. I don't see Gilly as wild woman, but certainly a woman who despite her name is not a true wallflower. She approached Sam and asked him to take her away from Craster. She was not to be stolen as a spearwife, but acted on her own to get the NW to take her away from Craster and save her unborn baby. She did tell Sam and Jon both that she would be their wife, but that was her desperation talking, and both refused her (wisely) as well. Thanks for your comments and I'm glad you are enjoying our ideas! You seem to know a lot about Gilly and Sam, so I was just wondering, can you think of any quotes about Gilly related to hot or cold, or the seasons? It might help us work out where she fits in the wider pattern! 20 hours ago, Evolett said: So the autumn maid is the defiant woman who will not simply succumb to the spear . The man can own either the knife or the woman but not both. She will not be dancing to his tune and all this with a clever nod at the bear and at Ygrittes red hair. I have to call it a day for tonight but this is coming along really well ! I definitely agree with this interpretation. I think when I next have some time, I will probably turn to look at Ygritte! I have had very little time to think today, but I did come across this quote while listening to LmL's 'Bloodstone Compendium' podcasts while driving. This is a quote from Tobho Mott, the King's Landing master armourer discussing how he forged Ned's old Valyrian steel sword, Ice, into two new swords - Widow's Wail and Oathkeeper. LmL believes they are iterations of the fiery sword Lightbringer (as they are 'split' in two, the same way the AA comet split the moon in two) and relate to his wider theory about the astronomical origins of the Azor Ahai myth, but I think it can also serve a purpose for our research. Ice can be seen as a potential candidate for the in-world Lightbringer, as can Oathkeeper (ie. will it kill Lady Stoneheart, allowing Catelyn to theoretically become Ned's Nissa Nissa?) It can also (as LmL suggests) be a symbol of the original Lightbringer, and be mimetic of it. Here's the quote: Quote "Nor I, my lord," said the armorer. "I confess, these colors were not what I intended, and I do not know that I could duplicate them. Your lord father had asked for the crimson of your House, and it was that color I set out to infuse into the metal. But Valyrian steel is stubborn. These old swords remember, it is said, and they do not change easily. I worked half a hundred spells and brightened the red time and time again, but always the color would darken, as if the blade was drinking the sun from it. And some folds would not take the red at all, as you can see. If my lords of Lannister are displeased, I will of course try again, as many times as you should require, but—" [...] "Magnificent." Even in hands as unskilled as Tyrion's, the blade felt alive. "I have never felt better balance." - Tyrion IV, A Storm of Swords Ok, now I want to compare that to the Nissa Nissa passage : Quote “A hundred days and a hundred nights [Azor Ahai] laboured on the third blade, and as it glowed white-hot in the sacred fires, he summoned his wife. ‘Nissa Nissa,’ he said to her, for that was her name, ‘bare your breast, and know that I love you best of all that is in this world.’ She did this thing, why I cannot say, and Azor Ahai thrust the smoking sword through her living heart. It is said that her cry of anguish and ecstasy left a crack across the face of the moon, but her blood and her soul and her strength and her courage all went into the steel. Such is the tale of the forging of Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes." Davos I, A Clash of Kings Firstly, both swords are red. Azor Ahai's is the 'Red Sword of Heroes', perhaps symbolic of the autumn maid recovering her heat. Oathkeeper is also red, but something else is happening; 'Valyrian steel is stubborn', it refuses to be moulded by the master armourer. If we can see this sword as some iteration of Lightbringer and Nissa Nissa, can we see this as a parallel for how the autumn maid resists the man? Tobho Mott also comments 'old swords remember', but remember what? What they used to be! Autumn maids remember what they were like before (perhaps in summer) and try to hold onto that in some way. Now we get this line about Oathkeeper: 'but always the colour would darken, as if the blade was drinking the sun from it.' The sword drinks the summer sun of the maiden's, the DW who was as 'fair as the sun', warm Jeyne Poole, 'hot-blooded' Ygritte and Val. This also links to Nissa Nissa's death, where 'her blood and soul and her strength and her courage all went into the steal.' Lightbringer, the original stealer of maidens, 'drinks the sun'. Now, before I go, I just thought I'd list the women we've covered and put them into season categories, to give us some idea where we can go next. Spring: Ashara Dayne Summer: Asha (on her way to autumn), The Dornishman's Wife Autumn: Val, Nissa Nissa, Catelyn (research to make more definitie) Winter: Jeyne Poole Undecided: The Night's Queen, Ygritte, Gilly, Lyanna Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evolett Posted March 7, 2016 Share Posted March 7, 2016 19 hours ago, LongRider said: Gilly is also different from other wildings as the it's not the Wilding's tradition of stealing wives that is the marriage imagrey surrounding her and Sam. It is the groom putting the cloak of his house on the bride's shoulders during the wedding; the custom known south of the Wall. Sam cloaks Gilly on first meeting so she can go to Jon without being noticed as Craster wife so much. Later, in the longhall, Sam and Gilly sleep under Sam's cloak. So there is no true spearwife stealing imagrey associated with them. Thanks for your comments on Gilly here. She did approach Sam and ask him to take her with him, in fact despite her constant tears over having to leave her son behind, she initiates all the more important aspects of their relationship as you point out - she does not fit the stealing scenario as far as Sam is concerned. But could we say her father stole her? Marrying one's own daughter isn't exactly a natural state of affairs and one Gilly obviously wasn't happy with - that and having to give up her son to the Others. I'm also wondering about Sam's black NW cloak, which might be a metaphor for a 'shadow'. Sam intends to tell his parents the baby is his though he never gave her his seed but is the black cloak meant to symbolize his shadow? Perhaps I'm reading too much into this. Time has been against me today so no chance to do any serious analysing - I hope to get back on track shortly. This looks good! 1 hour ago, SeethemFly said: The sword drinks the summer sun of the maiden's, the DW who was as 'fair as the sun', warm Jeyne Poole, 'hot-blooded' Ygritte and Val. This also links to Nissa Nissa's death, where 'her blood and soul and her strength and her courage all went into the steal.' Lightbringer, the original stealer of maidens, 'drinks the sun'. I'm not 100% sure about some of these though, especially Ashara as spring. From the way she deals with Qarl the Maid, Asha appears very autumn to me, on the other hand, Euron marrying her off like that could count as stealing. And I just remembered her wish to set up on sea dragon point which is well forested and green, suggesting spring (or autumn again if forests and weirwoods are more connected to autumn). I see more reading is necessary, hm. 1 hour ago, SeethemFly said: Spring: Ashara Dayne Summer: Asha (on her way to autumn), The Dornishman's Wife Autumn: Val, Nissa Nissa, Catelyn (research to make more definitie) Winter: Jeyne Poole Undecided: The Night's Queen, Ygritte, Gilly, Lyanna Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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LongRider Posted March 8, 2016 Share Posted March 8, 2016 4 hours ago, Evolett said: Thanks for your comments on Gilly here. She did approach Sam and ask him to take her with him, in fact despite her constant tears over having to leave her son behind, she initiates all the more important aspects of their relationship as you point out - she does not fit the stealing scenario as far as Sam is concerned. But could we say her father stole her? Marrying one's own daughter isn't exactly a natural state of affairs and one Gilly obviously wasn't happy with - that and having to give up her son to the Others. I'm also wondering about Sam's black NW cloak, which might be a metaphor for a 'shadow'. Sam intends to tell his parents the baby is his though he never gave her his seed but is the black cloak meant to symbolize his shadow? Perhaps I'm reading too much into this. For me, although the daughter/wife thing is totally horrible, Gilly was raised knowing it was always going to happen, it's the life she lived. So I wouldn't say her father stole her. She was his from birth, really. (yeah, gross! ) So as awful as it is, she remembers the drinking of sweet wine on her wedding day with a bit of fondness. What seems to have pushed her over the edge was the thought of losing her baby to the Others. I don't see Sam's cloak as shadow symbolism, but marriage symbolism. Sam and Gilly have a love story and the marriage cloak fits with that story. He also want's to be sure his family accepts her so he is willing to lie about the babe's paternity. And for all we know currently, she may have Sam's baby in her belly. 6 hours ago, SeethemFly said: Thanks for your comments and I'm glad you are enjoying our ideas! You seem to know a lot about Gilly and Sam, so I was just wondering, can you think of any quotes about Gilly related to hot or cold, or the seasons? It might help us work out where she fits in the wider pattern! Don't know of any offhand, but don't mind taking a look. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeethemFly Posted March 8, 2016 Author Share Posted March 8, 2016 14 hours ago, Evolett said: I'm not 100% sure about some of these though, especially Ashara as spring. From the way she deals with Qarl the Maid, Asha appears very autumn to me, on the other hand, Euron marrying her off like that could count as stealing. And I just remembered her wish to set up on sea dragon point which is well forested and green, suggesting spring (or autumn again if forests and weirwoods are more connected to autumn). I see more reading is necessary, hm. I sort of see Ashara as a 'False Spring' Maid (but we do have very little to go on). Ned and Ashara thought it was spring when they were together, but it all turned to death and cold when it failed. About Asha, I see her as a summer maid at the point in the story which she is at. She has 'stolen' Qarl, he has 'stolen' her and is only now feeling the cold/getting doubts, so I think she's well on her way to being an autumn maid. But yes, must find more Asha stuff! I have a little bit of time today, so I might try and find some Ygritte quotes (but I think there is a lot more to work through with her than the others!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeethemFly Posted March 8, 2016 Author Share Posted March 8, 2016 Okay, here is my analysis of Ygritte. I'm going to put her tentatively in the summer/autumn categories, like Asha as a woman who is 'hot-bloodied' and is stolen by a man, but at the same time has her own power to fight back. Ygritte’s Looks Now, the first obvious thing that helps us categorise Ygritte as an ‘autumn maid’ is the colour of her hair, it seems directly evocative of ‘I loved a maid as red as autumn with sunset in her hair.’ Here is the first description we get of her: Quote "Ygritte watched and said nothing. She was older than he'd thought at first, Jon realized; maybe as old as twenty, but short for her age, bandy-legged, with a round face, small hands, and a pug nose. Her shaggy mop of red hair stuck out in all directions. She looked plump as she crouched there, but most of that was layers of fur and wool and leather. Underneath all that she could be as skinny as Arya." - A Clash of Kings, Jon VI But the description of Ygritte’s hair is not just described as a ‘shaggy mop’, but it is directly linked to fire, perhaps suggesting Ygritte has an inner fire ripe for stealing, with also a link to the seasons mentioned in the same breath: Quote "The wildlings seemed to think Ygritte a great beauty because of her hair; red hair was rare among the free folk, and those who had it were said to be kissed by fire, which was supposed to be lucky. Lucky it might be, and red it certainly was, but Ygritte's hair was such a tangle that Jon was tempted to ask her if she only brushed it at the changing of the seasons." - A Storm of Swords, Jon II There is even a suggestion that Ygritte’s hair is fire in this quote: Quote "And sometimes by the cookfire when she sat hugging her knees with the flames waking echoes in her red hair, and looked at him, just smiling . . . well, that stirred some things as well." - A Storm of Swords, Jon II Ygritte’s Warmth Jon spends a lot of time with Ygritte, and there are three physical characteristics that he keeps bringing up: her red hair, her crooked teeth and her warmth. When Jon and Ygritte sleep together, the warmth of her is enough to make him block out his anxiety about his vows: Quote "His vows, her maidenhood, none of it mattered, only the heat of her, the mouth on his, the finger that pinched at his nipple." - A Storm of Swords, Jon III We also get this: Quote "Many a night he lay with Ygritte warm beside him, wondering if his lord father had felt this confused about his mother, whoever she had been. Ygritte set the trap and Mance Rayder pushed me into it." - A Storm of Swords, Jon V Again, Ygritte’s warmth is all that matters, but this time it is disguised as a trap. At this stage, Jon does not want to get to know the wildlings as he feels he is fraternising with the enemy, yet he is lured in by her warmth, and there is a powerful man behind the trap. Is this a parallel of the Dornishman’s Wife? He also describes Ygritte’s heat as he lies awake thinking about Ned and how he dishonoured himself with Jon’s mother. This may be a slightly indirect link, but if R+L=J is true, Ygritte’s warmth becomes compared with Lyanna, another ‘hot-blooded’ stolen woman. Ygritte’s heat is seen as one of her defining positive characteristics, connected to the red of her hair. In his mind, Jon clearly does not see it as violent or dominating, as he juxtaposes it with Ygritte’s killing of the old man, making her warmth opposite to her violence: Quote “Ygritte was much in his thoughts as well. He remembered the smell of her hair, the warmth of her body . . . and the look on her face as she slit the old man's throat.” - A Storm of Swords, Jon VI In spite of this violence, Ygritte’s love-making is described as ‘sweet’, like the Dornishman’s wife whose voice was sweet as a peach? Or Qarl, who is covered in peaches? Is this sweetness emblematic of her forbidden-ness? Or is it connected to her heat? Quote "The proving had been so sweet, though, and Ygritte had gone to sleep beside him with her head against his chest, and that was sweet as well, dangerously." - A Storm of Swords, Jon III Up to this point, we’ve assumed that Ygritte is the maid to be stolen by Jon, but is it possible that it is the other way round, that Ygritte stole Jon? Consider this quote: Quote "Every night when they made camp, Ygritte threw her sleeping skins down beside his own, no matter if he was near the fire or well away from it. Once he woke to find her nestled against him, her arm across his chest. He lay listening to her breathe for a long time, trying to ignore the tension in his groin. Rangers often shared skins for warmth, but warmth was not all Ygritte wanted, he suspected. After that he had taken to using Ghost to keep her away. Old Nan used to tell stories about knights and their ladies who would sleep in a single bed with a blade between them for honor's sake, but he thought this must be the first time where a direwolf took the place of the sword." - A Storm of Swords, Jon II Now, here the gender roles have been reversed. Ygritte is ignoring the warmth of the fire to come after Jon’s warmth. Jon thinks about protecting himself with a sword to stop himself getting ‘stolen’, and even uses Ghost, who here serves as a metaphorical sword, to keep Ygritte away. He is almost becoming a ‘spearwife’ here. Quote “Even then, Ygritte persisted. The day before last, Jon had made the mistake of wishing he had hot water for a bath. "Cold is better," she had said at once, "if you've got someone to warm you up after. The river's only part ice yet, go on." Jon laughed. "You'd freeze me to death." "Are all crows afraid of gooseprickles? A little ice won't kill you. I'll jump in with you t'prove it so." - A Storm of Swords, Jon II There is so much hot/cold symbolism in the passage I’d just like to take a moment to analyse it. So, at this moment Jon is wanting some warmth, but at the same time fears going near Ygritte because he doesn’t want dishonour her or to be the father of a bastard. He wants a hot bath, but Ygritte suggests cold is better if he has someone to warm him up (ie. Herself). Ygritte encourages Jon to jump in the river, and he jokes ‘you’d freeze me to death’. If we see Ygritte as the stealer here, is this suggesting she will make him cold, but later warm him up with some of her heat. Okay, so Ygritte is repeatedly linked with heat and sweetness, and possibly with the idea of her stealing Jon. But what type of heat? A red heat? There is not much evidence, but I did find this which links Ygritte to the sun. Jon asks Ygritte whether she fears death, and she says this: Quote "Last night I was," she admitted. "But now the sun's up." She pushed her hair aside to bare her neck, and knelt before him. "Strike hard and true, crow, or I'll come back and haunt you." - A Clash of Kings, Jon VI Now, this part absolutely fascinates me. Ygritte is no longer scared when in the sunlight – it was only in the cold and the dark that she feared death. This could point to an underlying fear about being turned into a wight, or it could more broadly connect her to warmth and sunlight. She asks Jon to kill her quickly, moving aside her red hair and bearing her neck – is she putting aside her heat? She then threatens to come back and haunt him. This may be stretching it a bit far, but is Ygritte suggesting she can recover from the cold of death? Ygritte’s Cave I now want to talk to the cave that Ygritte and Jon spend their happiest time in. In a recent thread (concerned with establishing Jon as the Sword of the Morning), I saw the cave characterised as a type of Underworld, with Jon operating as some sort of Orpheus lured down there by the promise of retrieving the spirit of his dead love. He is redeemed when he leaves. I think this is a really interesting idea, and it’s casting of Ygritte as Eurydice has some traction for our discussion. In classical mythology, Eurydice is the daughter of Apollo, a god variously associated with music, sun and light. Ygritte in this context can be seen as some sort of daughter of the sun. This is especially interesting when noticing that in the descriptions of the cave, Jon sees Ygritte as the only light: Quote “Jon had to crawl a dozen paces before the cave opened up around him. When he stood again, it took his eyes a moment to adjust. Ygritte had brought a torch, but there was no other light. She stood beside a little waterfall that fell from a cleft in the rock down into a wide dark pool. The orange and yellow flames shone against the pale green water.” - A Storm of Swords, Jon III Ygritte’s light is ‘orange and yellow’, like her hair, the colours of the autumn maid. Taking this out further, when Jon sees the cave from a distance, it is the only source of light for miles in the icy darkness. Quote “The mouth of the cave was a cleft in the rock barely wide enough for a horse, half concealed behind a soldier pine. It opened to the north, so the glows of the fires within would not be visible from the Wall. Even if by some mischance a patrol should happen to pass atop the Wall tonight, they would see nothing but hills and pines and the icy sheen of starlight on a half-frozen lake. Mance Rayder had planned his thrust well.” - A Storm of Swords, Jon III The cave’s light is also not visible from the Wall could this being saying that Jon’s love for Ygritte’s warmth is not visible from the Wall where it would be seen as an act of betrayal? Ygritte’s Stealing Ok, there is going to be some contention over whether Jon stole Ygritte (because there is in the book!) but I hope I lay these points out clearly! I just briefly want to detour and talk about the etymological origins of Ygritte’s name. Ygritte is very similar to the name Ygraine, the mother of Arthur Pendragon in Arthurian legend. Variations of her name include Igraine, Ygrayne, Igerne and even Arneve. In Geoffrey of Monmouth’s rendering of the Arthurian legend, Ygraine is married to Gorlois, with whom she has several children. Uther Pendragon (Arthur’s father) becomes obsessed with Ygraine, and repeatedly tries to steal her away from her husband, always failing. He eventually declares war on Gorlois in an effort to win her, but Gorlois has her locked away in Tintagel Castle for her protection. When Uther’s war fails, he eventually enlists Merlin’s help in disguising him (via magic) as Gorlois. Uther enters Tintagel Castle and rapes Ygraine, who thinks he is Gorlois. Tellingly, the same night Uther ‘steals’ Ygraine, Gorlois dies in battle, tying Gorlois’ death to the successful ‘stealing’ of Ygraine. Uther then marries Ygraine and she becomes the mother of Arthur (and also, sometimes, Morgause and Morgan le Fay). Considering this, the idea of stealing women is intricately bound up in her name. It’s just an idea to keep in mind. Ok, now I will turn to Ygritte’s stealing proper. First, we get this comment about Ygritte: Quote "Stonesnake had called her a "spearwife" when they'd captured her in the Skirling Pass. She wasn't wed and her weapon of choice was a short curved bow of horn and weirwood, but "spearwife" fit her all the same." - A Storm of Swords, Jon II So here it seems that Ygritte is the prime woman for taking. She is a spearwife, a ‘hot-blooded’ maiden who men want to steal the heat from. Jon feels he did not steal Ygritte, as this conversation with Tormund shows: Quote "You are a free man now, and Ygritte is a free woman. What dishonor if you lay together?" "I might get her with child." "Aye, I'd hope so. A strong son or a lively laughing girl kissed by fire, and where's the harm in that?" - A Storm of Swords, Jon III Again, Ygritte is characterized by both her fiery hair and her vivacious personality, which are seen hand in hand here. Similarly, there is a revival of the notion of honour in relationships; Ygritte and Jon are both free, just as Ned and Ashara were. Quote Words failed him for a moment. "The boy . . . the child would be a bastard." "Are bastards weaker than other children? More sickly, more like to fail?" "No, but—" "You're bastard-born yourself. And if Ygritte does not want a child, she will go to some woods witch and drink a cup o' moon tea. You do not come into it, once the seed is planted." - A Storm of Swords, Jon III The Ned/Ashara and Jon/Ygritte parallel perhaps turns here. Ygritte is seen as a woman in charge of her own destiny, able to abort a child she doesn’t want. Although we are not privy to Ashara’s thoughts, she gave birth to a Stark bastard and ultimately died for it. Does this distance Ashara from the in control ‘autumn maid’ model typified by Ygritte we’ve seen so far? Quote Tormund shook his shaggy head. "What fools you kneelers be. Why did you steal the girl if you don't want her?" "Steal? I never . . . " "You did," said Tormund. "You slew the two she was with and carried her off, what do you call it?" "I took her prisoner." "You made her yield to you." "Yes, but . . . Tormund, I swear, I've never touched her." - A Storm of Swords, Jon III Here we get the crux of the whole ‘stealing’ problem. To Ygritte, she was well and truly stolen, to Jon he just took her prisoner. Perhaps this counts as a stealing, but an untraditional one, where the woman decides who steals her. Could this play out in the Sam/Gilly situation, where Gilly decides that Sam is to be the one to steal her? Quote The King's Crown was the Cradle, to hear her tell it; the Stallion was the Horned Lord; the red wanderer that septons preached was sacred to their Smith up here was called the Thief. And when the Thief was in the Moonmaid, that was a propitious time for a man to steal a woman, Ygritte insisted. "Like the night you stole me. The Thief was bright that night." "I never meant to steal you," he said. "I never knew you were a girl until my knife was at your throat." "If you kill a man, and never mean t', he's just as dead," Ygritte said stubbornly. - A Storm of Swords, Jon III Now, we’ve already discussed the ‘brightness’ of the Thief in this passage, but I also just want to mention that the Thief is described as a ‘red wanderer’. If Ygritte could be seen as stealing Jon, is she literally a ‘red wanderer’ with flaming red hair? Also, Ygritte insists that Jon’s motives does not matter – in the eyes of the wildlings, he stole her. Could this again play out in the Sam/Gilly situation, with the eyes of the world seeing Gilly as a stolen woman? A slight tangent here, but Jon connects the song ‘Two hearts that beat as one’ to his relationship with Ygritte: Quote Two hearts that beat as one. Mance Rayder's mocking words rang bitter in his head. Jon had seldom felt so confused. I have no choice, he'd told himself the first time, when she slipped beneath his sleeping skins. If I refuse her, she will know me for a turncloak. I am playing the part the Halfhand told me to play. - A Storm of Swords, Jon III Could ‘Two hearts that beat as one’ therefore be seen as a ‘stealing’ song belonging to the summer or autumn groups? Ygritte’s Bael the Bard I’d also thought I’d have a look at Ygritte’s telling of the Bael the Bard story, as it is really important to the whole idea of stealing women in Northern and Wildling culture. It also tells us something about Ygritte herself. Quote She smiled again, a flash of white teeth. "And she never sung you the song o' the winter rose?" "I never knew my mother. Or any such song." "Bael the Bard made it," said Ygritte. "He was King-beyond-the-Wall a long time back. All the free folk know his songs, but might be you don't sing them in the south." - A Clash of Kings, Jon VI Interesting to see that this story is not known as ‘Bael the Bard’ but as ‘The Song O’ the Winter Rose’. This is a story about the Northman’s Daughter rather than Bael the Bard! This is also notable when remembering the link I made between Lyanna and Ygritte, the blue winter rose can be seen as a symbol of all stolen women, Ygritte included. Quote He had never thought of it that way. "I suppose it's all in where you're standing." "Aye," Ygritte agreed. "It always is." […] "Brave black crow," she mocked. "Well, long before he was king over the free folk, Bael was a great raider." Stonesnake gave a snort. "A murderer, robber, and raper, is what you mean." "That's all in where you're standing too," Ygritte said. "The Stark in Winterfell wanted Bael's head, but never could take him, and the taste o' failure galled him. One day in his bitterness he called Bael a craven who preyed only on the weak. When word o' that got back, Bael vowed to teach the lord a lesson. So he scaled the Wall, skipped down the kingsroad, and walked into Winterfell one winter's night with harp in hand, naming himself Sygerrik of Skagos. Sygerrik means ‘deceiver' in the Old Tongue, that the First Men spoke, and the giants still speak. - A Clash of Kings, Jon VI Again this question of perception continues. Was Bael a rapist? Or was he a ‘great raider’? As a point of interest, I also want to mention that Sygerrik means deceiver, and this is significant when remembering the real-world story of Gorlois, Ygraine and Uther, and how Uther disguised himself as Gorlois to get into Tintagel Castle and rape Ygraine. Geoffrey of Monmouth even goes so far as to describe Uther getting into the castle by ‘deceit’. Is Uther therefore a model for Bael and other male stealers, and therefore can Lyanna, the Northman’s Daughter, Jeyne and Ygritte also be seen as a quasi-Ygraine? Quote "North or south, singers always find a ready welcome, so Bael ate at Lord Stark's own table, and played for the lord in his high seat until half the night was gone. The old songs he played, and new ones he'd made himself, and he played and sang so well that when he was done, the lord offered to let him name his own reward. ‘All I ask is a flower,' Bael answered, ‘the fairest flower that blooms in the gardens o' Winterfell.' "Now as it happened the winter roses had only then come into bloom, and no flower is so rare nor precious. So the Stark sent to his glass gardens and commanded that the most beautiful o' the winter roses be plucked for the singer's payment. And so it was done. But when morning come, the singer had vanished . . . and so had Lord Brandon's maiden daughter. Her bed they found empty, but for the pale blue rose that Bael had left on the pillow where her head had lain." - A Clash of Kings, Jon VI Bael is not only a raider, but a stealer (perhaps meant to be evocative of Mance). The rest of this passage compares women to blue winter roses, which are ‘rare and precious’. Again, more direct symbolism about Lyanna. Quote "Lord Brandon had no other children. At his behest, the black crows flew forth from their castles in the hundreds, but nowhere could they find any sign o' Bael or this maid. For most a year they searched, till the lord lost heart and took to his bed, and it seemed as though the line o' Starks was at its end. But one night as he lay waiting to die, Lord Brandon heard a child's cry. He followed the sound and found his daughter back in her bedchamber, asleep with a babe at her breast." "Bael had brought her back?" "No. They had been in Winterfell all the time, hiding with the dead beneath the castle. The maid loved Bael so dearly she bore him a son, the song says . . . though if truth be told, all the maids love Bael in them songs he wrote. Be that as it may, what's certain is that Bael left the child in payment for the rose he'd plucked unasked, and that the boy grew to be the next Lord Stark. So there it is—you have Bael's blood in you, same as me." - A Clash of Kings, Jon VI Going back to the theory of Ygritte’s cave being the underworld, here, the Northman’s Daughter also spent a year in the Winterfell crypts with Bael. Like Jon emerging from Ygritte’s cave, the Northman’s Daughter emerges from the cave with her baby. Is she free from the stealing? Was Bael warm? Does the daughter’s emergence from the crypts redeem House Stark? I also think it’s interesting that Ygritte undermines the idea that it was a consensual relationship (like a Spring maid), but a fully fledged stealing, making the Northman’s Daughter an autumn or winter maid. I would classify her as a winter maid, as when she was stolen she had hid with ‘the dead’ beneath the castle, linking her to cold and darkness. Quote "It never happened," Jon said. She shrugged. "Might be it did, might be it didn't. It is a good song, though. My mother used to sing it to me. She was a woman too, Jon Snow. Like yours." She rubbed her throat where his dirk had cut her. "The song ends when they find the babe, but there is a darker end to the story. Thirty years later, when Bael was King-beyond-the-Wall and led the free folk south, it was young Lord Stark who met him at the Frozen Ford . . . and killed him, for Bael would not harm his own son when they met sword to sword." "So the son slew the father instead," said Jon. "Aye," she said, "but the gods hate kinslayers, even when they kill unknowing. When Lord Stark returned from the battle and his mother saw Bael's head upon his spear, she threw herself from a tower in her grief. Her son did not long outlive her. One o' his lords peeled the skin off him and wore him for a cloak." - A Clash of Kings, Jon VI This further shows that Bael has ‘stolen’ too much from the Northman’s Daughter. The son grows up and meets his father in battle at the Frozen Ford (frozen = winter), and engages in kinslaying. The son is then punished by the Old Golds (the gods of winter) by being skinned by one of his lords (implicitly a Bolton, a house often connected with icy winter). Also, like Ashara Dayne, the Northman’s Daughter threw herself from a tower in grief. Does this help us establish Ashara as a ‘False Spring’ or ‘Winter’ maid, because they shared the same fate? Back to Ygritte, I also find it interesting that Ygritte remembers telling Jon this story later, and connects it to her belief that she had been stolen: Quote “Jon sat up. "Ygritte, I never stole you." "Aye, you did. You jumped down the mountain and killed Orell, and afore I could get my axe you had a knife at my throat. I thought you'd have me then, or kill me, or maybe both, but you never did. And when I told you the tale o' Bael the Bard and how he plucked the rose o' Winterfell, I thought you'd know to pluck me then for certain, but you didn't. You know nothing, Jon Snow." She gave him a shy smile. "You might be learning some, though."” - A Storm of Swords, Jon III She sees the telling of the story as a potential catalyst for Jon killing her or ‘plucking’ her. This is interesting language to use, especially considering the description as the Northman’s Daughter in the Bael the Bard story as a ‘rose he'd plucked unasked’. Is Ygritte basically using the story of Bael the Bard to force Jon to steal her? Ygritte’s Death Now I just want to look at Ygritte’s Death, which seems to consolidate all the ideas I’ve presented above. Quote He found Ygritte sprawled across a patch of old snow beneath the Lord Commander's Tower, with an arrow between her breasts. The ice crystals had settled over her face, and in the moonlight it looked as though she wore a glittering silver mask. - A Storm of Swords, Jon VII Ygritte’s heat has been sucked from her by death. She is lying on the snow; ice crystals pepper her face. Gone is all the reference to orange and reds, now she is silver. Quote The arrow was black, Jon saw, but it was fletched with white duck feathers. Not mine, he told himself, not one of mine. But he felt as if it were. - A Storm of Swords, Jon VII The arrow that kills Ygritte is black, just like the ‘black steel’ of the Dornishman’s blade which causes death to the stealer (raises the idea once again that Ygritte stole Jon). Jon is fearful that he has killed her (is this perhaps a fear of taking too much from her?), or is it just guilt over the fact that members of the Nights Watch killed her. Quote […] "Good," she whispered. "I wanted t' see one proper castle, before . . . before I . . . " "You'll see a hundred castles," he promised her. "The battle's done. Maester Aemon will see to you." He touched her hair. "You're kissed by fire, remember? Lucky. It will take more than an arrow to kill you. Aemon will draw it out and patch you up, and we'll get you some milk of the poppy for the pain." - A Storm of Swords, Jon VII Here, Jon reminds her of her ‘lucky’ red hair, and implicitly of her heat and her life. He’s denying that she is dying, so is holding on to the idea of her heat. Quote She just smiled at that. "D'you remember that cave? We should have stayed in that cave. I told you so." "We'll go back to the cave," he said. "You're not going to die, Ygritte. You're not." "Oh." Ygritte cupped his cheek with her hand. "You know nothing, Jon Snow," she sighed, dying. - A Storm of Swords, Jon VII The cave is a special place for Jon and Ygritte, but it is also a metaphor for the Underworld and death. Ygritte is going back to the cave, but without Jon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeethemFly Posted March 9, 2016 Author Share Posted March 9, 2016 Another interesting quote that might be relevant to our discussion: Quote "Closer to the towers, corpses littered the ground on every side. Blood-blooms had sprouted from their gaping wounds, pale flowers with petals plump and moist as a woman's lips." - Reek II, A Dance with Dragons There is literally a flower that grow from gaping wounds on dead bodies (death), they are called blood-blooms (death) and they are compared to a woman's lips (kisses). Stealing a woman's kiss apparently kills! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evolett Posted March 10, 2016 Share Posted March 10, 2016 On 8.3.2016 at 8:20 PM, SeethemFly said: Okay, here is my analysis of Ygritte. I'm going to put her tentatively in the summer/autumn categories, like Asha as a woman who is 'hot-bloodied' and is stolen by a man, but at the same time has her own power to fight back...... Fascinating and very comprehensive. You've been very thorough with this analysis of Ygritte and it's amazing just how very much Jon associates her with heat throughout. Regarding the stealing, even though Jon thinks otherwise, Ygritte certainly believes she was stolen according to the rules of wildling tradition. Considering her death was caused by the black arrow that recalls the Dornishman's black blade and the fact that in death she has a mask of ice-crystals on her face, I would say the author wants observant readers to note that she indeed belongs in the stolen category. I'm glad you point out the 'Wanderer' Thief/Moonmaid quote here again because that, plus all the references to her red hair and heat and her tough independent minded nature, taking the initiative in the relationship, identify her as an autumn maid, imo. The 'red wanderer' is a direct parallel to the 'bleeding comet'. The latter shows up at the end of summer and it heralds the autumn as much as Maester Cressen's white raven does (he contemplates on the meaning of the comet on the day Shireen asks to see the white raven in the prologue to aCoK). The comet of course has a fiery tail which also 'bleeds'. Recall my Jon = Frozen Fire essay, where I list the quotes describing Lyanna's inner fire: the symbolism is all blood and fire - like the blood-streaked sky that is blood as well as sunset or the blood blossoms that are at once blood-blooms and dragon's breath. After all the work we've done here, I'm quite convinced that Lyanna's 'kindling trait' which is represented by the blue winter roses is the fire of the autumn maid and those 'kissed by fire'. This red fire is different from the summer version. If golden light is all of the light spectrum, then I envisage the autumn red (or the fire brought by the comet) represents only the red/orange section of wavelength of light. It's not the sun's complete fire but only a portion of it - well, like 'kindling'. Now, looking at it in terms of the summer maid who immediately becomes wintery after having her fire stolen by a man, the autumn maid is then the woman who has recovered the ability to start a fire via her red autumn 'kindling'. She is also very adamant about keeping her kindling intact. Ygritte may think she was stolen in wildling terms but it's important that she is not raped, that she initiates the sexual part of the relationship with Jon and that she can hold her own. Jon and Ygritte live the 'two hearts that beat as one' portion of the spring season in this respect and I think that aspect reflects Jon's view of how they came together. We have a stealing and a not-stealing rolled into one. I still have not had time to look at Gilly but from the quick analyis we have here, my feeling is that she to is an autumn maid. Also interesting in respect of defending her 'kindling' is Catelyn. Just before her throat is cut, all she thinks of is her hair: “Mad,” someone said, “she’s lost her wits,” and someone else said, “Make an end,” and a hand grabbed her scalp just as she’d done with Jinglebell, and she thought, No, don’t, don’t cut my hair, Ned loves my hair. Then the steel was at her throat, and its bite was red and cold. This knife also has a cold bite and a red one (recalling the comet) at that. Even though it's at her throat, she pleads for her hair not to be cut. Like Ygritte, in death, Catelyn also goes from autumn to winter. She becomes a cold, stony version of herself. Her hair was dry and brittle, white as bone. Her brow was mottled green and grey, spotted with the brown blooms of decay ... Lady Catelyn’s fingers dug deep into her throat, and the words came rattling out, choked and broken, a stream as cold as ice. Despite their arranged marriage, Ned and Catelyn also display the 'two hearts beat as one model'. There's that sense of mutual respect, affection and care for one another, again reflected by Catelyn's last thoughts. So the subtext of 'Ned loves my hair' is also interesting - also in view of this death which was as treacherous as that of Jon's and Robb's. 'Kissed by fire' certainly isn't luck for those 'blessed', neither for those associated with them, it seems. Actually, I think what I call Catelyn's 'greenseeing trait' is synonymous with the 'kindling'. A short note on Bael the Bard. I've long been of the opinion that his 'plucking of the winter rose' was anything but romantic. Unlike Jon and Ygritte who get to know each other and eventually spend a few blissful hours in their cave, Bael stole a maid out of spite and kept her in the dark crypts for the duration of her pregnancy. My feeling is Bran's vision tells us the true ending of that story: He saw no more of his father, nor the girl who looked like Arya, but a woman heavy with child emerged naked and dripping from the black pool, knelt before the tree, and begged the old gods for a son who would avenge her. This vision makes the most sense in the context of the Bael the Bard story. And her son did avenge her in the end. -------------------------------------------------- Ashara is a bit of an enigma. The first verse of Tom o' Seven's song has some strong parallels to Ser Barristan's thoughts on Ashara: My featherbed is deep and soft, and there I’ll lay you down, I’ll dress you all in yellow silk, and on your head a crown.For you shall be my lady love,and I shall be your lord.I’ll always keep you warm and safe,and guard you with my sword. Like in the song, Selmy would have crowned her his lady love. Being one of the best knights around, he would have certainly kept her safe and guarded her with his sword. Most intriguing about this song is that here we have the man keeping the woman warm and giving her woman 'sunlight' by dressing her in yellow silk. This only became clear to me while reading the passage again today. His sword does not penetrate her but guards her and keeps her safe. Selmy is also a 'white shadow and a white sword. He fits the white sword male winter archetype and the song is sort of a parallel to the passage you quoted above Quote On 8.3.2016 at 8:20 PM, SeethemFly said: Old Nan used to tell stories about knights and their ladies who would sleep in a single bed with a blade between them for honor's sake, but he thought this must be the first time where a direwolf took the place of the sword." If Ashara needs warmth, she cannot be summer. She has haunting purple eyes which recalls Ygritte coming back to haunt Jon as well as the the link to the NK corpse bride who takes his soul and, in my scenario, births sons who come back to haunt mankind (thinking also of Gilly here whose son would have been sacrificed to the Others). Like the Stark daughter, Ashara also jumps to her death from a tower, suggesting a connection between her and the 'winter rose'. Then there's the theme of 'laughing' which I've been looking into on the side and would ascribe to winter. Her story is confined to the False Spring which turns into a harsh winter (Aerys has the pyromancers burning fires as far south as KL to drive off the cold). She was 'dishonoured' at Harrenhal - here I have to add that I have my own theory on what that means. Not rape imo. Without the second verse, this suggests she was a winter maid. The second verse sounds more like Lyanna but if it's still a reference to Ashara, then we do have a gown of 'golden leaves' and are left wondering what the difference between 'yellow silk' and 'golden leaves' might be in terms of warmth. There is also this: Quote His choice would have been a young maiden not long at court, one of Elia’s companions … though compared to Ashara Dayne, the Dornish princess was a kitchen drab. Given my thoughts on the Northman's daughter, Danny Flint and the Rat Cook story, isn't it interesting that Selmy thinks of Elia as a kitchen drab? I always thought that rather harsh of him but there does seem to be something more to this regarding Elia's genetic heritage. Elia is synonmous with Danny Flint here. I've determined Lyanna's wolf-blood as having come from her Flint grandmother and the flint is also the fiery characteristic required to strike a spark in my Jon Snow conception metaphor. If Ashara is so much more than Elia, then she must have more than just the flint - presumably the 'golden leaves' which are obviously organic in nature. Coming to think of it, 'yellow silk' is a good description for sun rays. Soft, slightly transparent... The gold leaves... remind me of the broadleafs that Jon sees in the haunted forest: Quote Closer at hand, it was the trees that ruled. To south and east the wood went on as far as Jon could see, a vast tangle of root and limb painted in a thousand shades of green, with here and there a patch of red where a weirwood shouldered through the pines and sentinels, or a blush of yellow where some broadleafs had begun to turn. and Quote The soldier pines were dressed in somber greens, the broadleafs in russets and faded golds already beginning to brown Soldier pines and sentinels evoke war and guarding respectively and in the midst of this we have the broadleafs with their yellow-gold leaves. Hm. Ashara does not need yellow silk or sunlight because she has golden leaves. Perhaps in a parallel to blue winter roses, these are also kindling. In both quotes the broadleafs are beginning to 'turn', they're withering and drying out, becoming suitable kindling. This sounds exciting - more to check out. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- I'm currently reading The Mists of Avalon for the first time and have just reached the part where Ygraine has her first private talk with Uther so you've unintentionally spoilered the story with your account. I thought of not reading that section of your post but couldn't resist. Nevermind, and yes, I do agree there are plenty of templates there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evita mgfs Posted March 10, 2016 Share Posted March 10, 2016 On 3/1/2016 at 11:57 AM, SeethemFly said: Well, not quite! This may have been discussed many times, but I am always interested how songs that appear in ASOIAF can foreshadow certain events or even be symbolic of a character/situation/theme. I just thought I'd post here all the ones I'd heard, and if anyone else has any insight. I think the songs can mean several things, so I don't think there is necessarily a right answer! Some ideas are my own, others I remember reading on the forum. I'm not going to cover the 'Rains of Castamere' because the meaning seems to be about the Lannister's reputation after the Reyne's rebellion, but if anyone has any other ideas let me know. The Dornishman's Wife A song of unknown origin about a man who slept with the wife of a Dornishman. Although he died of wounds after duelling the Dornishman, he does not regret it for he's "tasted the Dornishman's wife". The Dornishman's Wife seems to be highlighting the theme of a person being punished for doing something they are not meant to do. The fact that Jon Snow hears it could point to the fact that it is of Northern origin, or that it is somehow related to Jon. Dorne is in the extreme south of Westeros, and this location could be used by the narrator to show a place or person that is at the extremes or in some way exotic. If this is of Northern origin, this forbidden exotic place could be seen to be the land beyond the Wall, the geographical opposite to Dorne. What role do the Dornishman and his wife therefore play? The Dornishman's wife could be seen as a woman from this "other" place, particularly a wildling. It could be referring to Jon and Ygritte's relationship, or Sam and Gilly, as both suffer in some way for pursuing these relationships. The Dornishman himself is therefore a wildling man, and the subsequent duel could be referring to the wildling practice of "stealing" women. Alternatively, the wife could be an Other and this could be yet another retelling of the Night's King story, albeit in a more subtle way, with the forbidden woman being the Night King's wife. This is slightly undermined by the wife being described as "warmer than spring". The Dornishman therefore becomes the Brothers of the Nights Watch, a point perhaps reinforced by the Dornishman's sword being made of "black steel". Who is the central character? It has been noted that the central character could be a member of the Night's Watch who had some sort of relationship with a wildling woman (like Jon and Ygritte). Once he is dying of his wounds, it is noted "his brothers knelt by him and prayed him a prayer". This does not have to be a biological brother, but a sworn brother. If the central character is a member of the Night's Watch, could this therefore be foreshadowing Jon's death at the hands of his sworn brothers due to his fraternising with the wildlings, especially his relationship with Ygritte, 'the Dornishman's wife'? Are there any examples of her being described in ways similar to the Dornishman's wife? Valar morghulis - The Dornishman's Wife ends with the central character saying that his death does not matter for "all men must die". This is the same as the High Valyrian phrase "Valar morghulis". Is it a direct translation? Or just a coincidence? Does this song therefore have some link to the goings on in Essos, particularly the House of Black and White, who could possibly be linked to the Dornishman's 'black steel' sword? Could this "Valar morghulis" similarity link back once again to the Night's Watch, as the normal response is "Valar dohaeris" - all men must serve - an important aspect of the Night's Watch. Did the central character 'die' for failing to 'serve' (perhaps echoing Jon Snow's fate). The Last of the Giants A song sung by the freefolk where a giant sings about all the terrible things mankind has done to him and his kind. Although this at first could literally a song about the plight of the giants (of whom there are only a few hundred left), there are ways in which it could be about other groups North of the Wall. The Wildling origin of this song points to the fact that it may have something to do with events beyond the Wall thousands of years ago rather than anything else in Westeros. The "giants" are the Wildlings. Among the giants complaints are several things that the Wildlings would dislike about the Night's Watch and the rest of mankind. This includes how the smallfolk have "built a great wall through [his] valley". This perhaps relates directly to the Wall and how the Wildlings resent the Wall's building. It is interesting also that the Wall's building is attributed to men and not any magic users considering it's size and magical properties. A little undermined by the fact that the giant is the "last" of the giants, when it seems there are lots of Wildling's left. The "giants" are the Others or wights. This mainly relates to the idea that the giant is the "last" of his kind - how many Others actually are there? Also, the giant makes two references to fire, something the Others are known not to like! Firstly, the giant mentions that humans "burn their great fires" in their halls, but later mentions how he is hunted with "torches by night". Torches (fire) are one of the few effective ways to kill wights, and the Others generally only appear in the dark and cold hence the "night". Others would also not be great fans of the Wall. Also (this may be a little crackpot) the giant poses the song as a warning, saying "so learn well the words of my song/ For when I am gone the singing will fade and the silence shall last long and long"; perhaps this "song" is a memory aid for the hypothetical long ago pack between the Others and Humankind which led to the Wall's construction. It serves as a reminder to humans not to break the pact, or the Others will return and "the silence shall last long and long". The "giants" are the Children of the Forest. The reference to the "song" and how the "singing will fade" could relate to the Children's exile to the far north and thus the exile of their songs, particularly their "song of the earth" that Bran is told about. In this context, the pact here becomes the Pact of the Isle of Faces, the Pact between Children and Humans which saw the forests being given to the Children and the open lands to the humans. The songs lament of the destruction of Westeros' natural habitat by human hand could therefore be highlighting the priorities of the Children and maybe how humans are breaking the pact by destroying nature with their technology. The Bear and the Maiden Fair A humorous song popular throughout Westeros that tells the story of a maiden who goes to a fair, but is rescued by a bear instead of the prince she was expecting. The maid and the bear end up dancing together at the end. This one seems to me to be evoking the "Beauty and the Beast" theme present in so many character arcs, and how the Beauty can overcome the Beast's ugliness and see what is on the inside. The fact that the song seems popular around Westeros perhaps relates it to all characters, and not just characters from particular regions. Characters and situations it relates to particularly include: Jaime and Brienne This is perhaps the most obvious example of the "Beauty and the Beast" theme in action, but here it is subverted: Jaime and Brienne are both the Beauty and the Beast. While Jaime is physically beautiful and Brienne ugly, on the inside Brienne is good and honourable whereas Jaime is cynical and has often done bad things. Here, the Maid and the Bear "dancing" together can perhaps be symbolic of their growing (romantic) relationship. Jaime and Brienne also literally fought a bear, and in this instance were both the maiden facing the bear. At the same time, Jaime also becomes the bear by being the unexpected person to save Brienne. This idea continues with Brienne replacing Renly with Jaime in her mind = although she expects Renly "the prince" to save her, it is instead Jaime. The Hound and Sansa Here, the Hound is the Bear and Sansa the maid, with the Hound acting as the unexpected saviour (Bear) for Sansa (Maid) after preventing her from killing Joffrey, the riot in King's Landing and offering to take her away after the Battle of the Blackwater. The UnKiss and Sansa's subsequent thoughts of Sandor add a romantic slant to this relationship. Jorah and Daenerys Jorah is, in more ways than one, a bear. Physically, he is often described as being "hairy", the main descriptor used in the song about the bear. He is also of House Mormont, whose sigil is a bear. This relationship follows the Hound and Sansa's one quite closely, although more emphasis is placed on the romantic intentions of the bear towards the maid. In this example, the love is not reciprocated. The Seasons of My Love (Presumably a missing "spring" verse) I loved a maid as fair as summer, with sunlight in her hair. I loved a maid as red as autumn, with sunset in her hair. I loved a maid as white as winter, with moonglow in her hair. 'The Seasons of My Love' is a sad Myrish song with three known verses, of which the order is unknown. Tyrion relates that Tysha used to sing this song. The Seasons of My Love is less transparent than the 'Bear and the Maiden Fair', but seems to relate to the passing of the seasons and the descent into winter. As Tyrion gives us the most information about this song, perhaps it is something to do with his love life, but how Tysha and Shae would fit into this is not clear. Is this related to the story of the Night's King with the "maid as white as winter with moonglow in her hair" being his Other wife? The Other wife is described as having "skin as white as the moon". What role the "summer" and "autumn" maid's play in this interpretation is unclear. The song's Myrish origin may give us a clue to the meaning of the song - Cersei's future through her link to Taena of Myr? That it relates to Jon's love life with Ygritte being the autumn maid and Val the winter maid. Who the spring and summer maids could be I don't know, but the order in which the narrator fell in love with the maids is unknown, and perhaps the order of their relationship with Jon is therefore unclear. I'm unsure whether the song's Myrish origin could be related to Jon. Other Songs Many of these do not have lyrics, but their subject matter may help to highlight important themes or foreshadow events. Brave Danny Flint = about a girl who disguises herself as a member of the Night's Watch, but then is raped and murdered Highlights the dangers of being a woman in a man's world, particularly the threat to women who cross into 'masculine' spheres = ie. Arya, Brienne Danny's surname Flint could further connect this song to Arya, as Ned Stark's maternal grandmother was Arya Flint of House Flint of the mountains. The Dance of Dragons = A song about the original Dance of Dragons Foreshadowing the upcoming conflict between Daenerys and (f)Aegon. The Rat Cook Foreshadows "Frey Pie" Jenny's song Evidence that the Ghost of High Heart knew Jenny of Oldstones and was at Summerhall. If anyone else has any ideas, please post below! Hello Again! I mentioned earlier some of my work with sound analysis in Martin’s series, and I thought I would share an example of what I meant. I know it is not exactly what you are seeking, but the scholarly integrity of the responses in this thread might appreciate how the brilliant Martin orchestrates musicality within his text. The Sounds of Silence Celebrated fantasy author George R.R. Martin scatters clues among deeply symbolic layers of prose narratives in novels that he styles A Song of Ice and Fire Series much like an expert gardener sows metaphoric seeds that take root and prosper. Just so, Bran’s escalating greenseeing powers are the seeds that flourish under Martin’s ministrations. The author seemingly tempts readers to dig deep and reach far if they endeavor to unearth the evidences that document the scope of Bran’s magic. Even in those novels preceding A Dance with Dragons, Martin buries treasures awaiting discovery that only comes from returning to the beginning with the knowledge needed for insightful rereading. Jon’s POVs throughout A Clash of Kings are noteworthy on many levels of analysis, but in regards to literary techniques, Martin favors engaging sensory elements to augment his descriptions of characters, of environments, and of “things” in general, conscientiously and artistically choosing words that he arranges into sentences, then paragraphs, to animate a fantasy world and its colorful populace. Martin makes the intangible tangible, relating for his readers what they know as familiar in order to evocate the unfamiliar. Martin summons his fans to feel the biting cold of the Wall and beyond, to taste the potent sweetness of summerwine, to see Valyrian steel spill hot red blood on clean white snow, and to smell moist earth, sour perspiration, and wet fur. However, in Jon’s seventh ACoK narrative, while retaining particulars of the sensory perceptions associated with the tactile, the taste, the visual, and the olfactory, Martin showcases the auditory, employing distinctive sounds more acute when Martin places them strategically between silences. Illustrations of sound and silence are integral to Jon’s POVs in ACoK, and Martin attaches significance to the auditory during the rangers’ upward trek of the Skirling Pass, traveling on one of many steep, narrow paths lined with walls of rock. Moving silently and in single file, the men hear the wind blowing through the mountain rock, causing the “skirling”, a shrill, mournful sound similar to bagpiping. Jon Snow observes, “The wind cut like a knife up here, and shrilled in the night like a mother mourning her slain children” (ACoK 739). Amid the sounds and the silences of nature and men, Jon’s direwolf Ghost remains silent, a point Martin reaffirms throughout Jon’s POVs. However, at the zenith of the Skirling Pass and under a rock archway, Jon sleeps only to hear Ghost break his silence, finally finding his voice to sing to his pack. Consequently, the boy inside the wolf shares his acute feelings of loss for his littermates, five brothers and a sister. So great is his longing for his family, the otherwise silent Ghost announces his mourning with a direwolf’s voice, howling into the night sky: “his [Ghost’s] cry echoed through the forest, a long lonely mournful sound” [ACoK 765]. Martin fittingly chooses the Skirling Pass, known for its keening, as a setting for Ghost’s melancholy song. The narrow pathway through which a warg is symbolically born serves as a metaphoric birth canal, and Bran the budding greenseer assists at the delivery of Jon’s warg spirit, which is marked by Ghost finding his voice. Can a Howl be Silent? Neither Jon nor Ghost display “surprise” or amazement when Ghost exercises his voice for the first time. The confusion of the dream platform may be a reason for the lack of reaction from boy and wolf. Several other possibilities for Martin omitting what seems to be important include: 1.) Ghost issues a “phantom” howl which Jon dreams of hearing, in a way similar to Bran’s speech registering with Jon. 2.) Jon hears the wind in the rocky passages while he is in a dream state, and he mistakes it for Ghost’s keening. 3.) Ghost’s howl is a “non-event” in comparison to the other meritorious happenings in Jon’s wolf dream. 4.) Jon hears sounds in his wolf dream that he heard while awake, specifically wolves howling: “A sound rose out of darkness, faint and distant, but unmistakable: the howling of wolves. Their voices rise and fell in a chilly song, and lonely” [ACoK 515]. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeethemFly Posted March 10, 2016 Author Share Posted March 10, 2016 8 hours ago, evita mgfs said: Hello Again! I mentioned earlier some of my work with sound analysis in Martin’s series, and I thought I would share an example of what I meant. I know it is not exactly what you are seeking, but the scholarly integrity of the responses in this thread might appreciate how the brilliant Martin orchestrates musicality within his text. The Sounds of Silence Celebrated fantasy author George R.R. Martin scatters clues among deeply symbolic layers of prose narratives in novels that he styles A Song of Ice and Fire Series much like an expert gardener sows metaphoric seeds that take root and prosper. Just so, Bran’s escalating greenseeing powers are the seeds that flourish under Martin’s ministrations. The author seemingly tempts readers to dig deep and reach far if they endeavor to unearth the evidences that document the scope of Bran’s magic. Even in those novels preceding A Dance with Dragons, Martin buries treasures awaiting discovery that only comes from returning to the beginning with the knowledge needed for insightful rereading. Jon’s POVs throughout A Clash of Kings are noteworthy on many levels of analysis, but in regards to literary techniques, Martin favors engaging sensory elements to augment his descriptions of characters, of environments, and of “things” in general, conscientiously and artistically choosing words that he arranges into sentences, then paragraphs, to animate a fantasy world and its colorful populace. Martin makes the intangible tangible, relating for his readers what they know as familiar in order to evocate the unfamiliar. Martin summons his fans to feel the biting cold of the Wall and beyond, to taste the potent sweetness of summerwine, to see Valyrian steel spill hot red blood on clean white snow, and to smell moist earth, sour perspiration, and wet fur. However, in Jon’s seventh ACoK narrative, while retaining particulars of the sensory perceptions associated with the tactile, the taste, the visual, and the olfactory, Martin showcases the auditory, employing distinctive sounds more acute when Martin places them strategically between silences. Illustrations of sound and silence are integral to Jon’s POVs in ACoK, and Martin attaches significance to the auditory during the rangers’ upward trek of the Skirling Pass, traveling on one of many steep, narrow paths lined with walls of rock. Moving silently and in single file, the men hear the wind blowing through the mountain rock, causing the “skirling”, a shrill, mournful sound similar to bagpiping. Jon Snow observes, “The wind cut like a knife up here, and shrilled in the night like a mother mourning her slain children” (ACoK 739). Amid the sounds and the silences of nature and men, Jon’s direwolf Ghost remains silent, a point Martin reaffirms throughout Jon’s POVs. However, at the zenith of the Skirling Pass and under a rock archway, Jon sleeps only to hear Ghost break his silence, finally finding his voice to sing to his pack. Consequently, the boy inside the wolf shares his acute feelings of loss for his littermates, five brothers and a sister. So great is his longing for his family, the otherwise silent Ghost announces his mourning with a direwolf’s voice, howling into the night sky: “his [Ghost’s] cry echoed through the forest, a long lonely mournful sound” [ACoK 765]. Martin fittingly chooses the Skirling Pass, known for its keening, as a setting for Ghost’s melancholy song. The narrow pathway through which a warg is symbolically born serves as a metaphoric birth canal, and Bran the budding greenseer assists at the delivery of Jon’s warg spirit, which is marked by Ghost finding his voice. Can a Howl be Silent? Neither Jon nor Ghost display “surprise” or amazement when Ghost exercises his voice for the first time. The confusion of the dream platform may be a reason for the lack of reaction from boy and wolf. Several other possibilities for Martin omitting what seems to be important include: 1.) Ghost issues a “phantom” howl which Jon dreams of hearing, in a way similar to Bran’s speech registering with Jon. 2.) Jon hears the wind in the rocky passages while he is in a dream state, and he mistakes it for Ghost’s keening. 3.) Ghost’s howl is a “non-event” in comparison to the other meritorious happenings in Jon’s wolf dream. 4.) Jon hears sounds in his wolf dream that he heard while awake, specifically wolves howling: “A sound rose out of darkness, faint and distant, but unmistakable: the howling of wolves. Their voices rise and fell in a chilly song, and lonely” [ACoK 515]. Thanks for your contribution! I find it really interesting that the wolves howls are described as a 'chilly song'. That could have some traction here - especially in relation to Val's relationship with Ghost. It's a very interesting approach you've taken, and I will have to read it over again to give some more comprehensive thoughts on it! 11 hours ago, Evolett said: I'm currently reading The Mists of Avalon for the first time and have just reached the part where Ygraine has her first private talk with Uther so you've unintentionally spoilered the story with your account. I thought of not reading that section of your post but couldn't resist. Nevermind, and yes, I do agree there are plenty of templates there. Oh no, I'm so sorry! The version I outlined is one of the better known versions of the Uther/Ygraine story, but Mists of Avalon may take it a different way. The recent British TV Series Merlin certainly did! 11 hours ago, Evolett said: If Ashara needs warmth, she cannot be summer. She has haunting purple eyes which recalls Ygritte coming back to haunt Jon as well as the the link to the NK corpse bride who takes his soul and, in my scenario, births sons who come back to haunt mankind (thinking also of Gilly here whose son would have been sacrificed to the Others). Like the Stark daughter, Ashara also jumps to her death from a tower, suggesting a connection between her and the 'winter rose'. Then there's the theme of 'laughing' which I've been looking into on the side and would ascribe to winter. Her story is confined to the False Spring which turns into a harsh winter (Aerys has the pyromancers burning fires as far south as KL to drive off the cold). She was 'dishonoured' at Harrenhal - here I have to add that I have my own theory on what that means. Not rape imo. Without the second verse, this suggests she was a winter maid. The second verse sounds more like Lyanna but if it's still a reference to Ashara, then we do have a gown of 'golden leaves' and are left wondering what the difference between 'yellow silk' and 'golden leaves' might be in terms of warmth. Given my thoughts on the Northman's daughter, Danny Flint and the Rat Cook story, isn't it interesting that Selmy thinks of Elia as a kitchen drab? I always thought that rather harsh of him but there does seem to be something more to this regarding Elia's genetic heritage. Elia is synonmous with Danny Flint here. I've determined Lyanna's wolf-blood as having come from her Flint grandmother and the flint is also the fiery characteristic required to strike a spark in my Jon Snow conception metaphor. If Ashara is so much more than Elia, then she must have more than just the flint - presumably the 'golden leaves' which are obviously organic in nature. Coming to think of it, 'yellow silk' is a good description for sun rays. Soft, slightly transparent... The gold leaves... remind me of the broadleafs that Jon sees in the haunted forest: Mmm, interesting thoughts. I think your first paragraph about Ashara's 'golden leaves' is persuasive, and I also agree that the Ashara/Stark relationship wasn't a rape, otherwise why would Ned have happily returned the sword? I see it more that Ashara was 'dishonoured' because she gave birth to an illegitimate child, ie. she was 'dishonoured' in the same way as Lysa Tully was, and she was married off the hide the shame of her aborted child (and it is very clear that Lysa loved Littlefinger, the man who dishonoured her). I think the golden leaves are more connected to the idea of innocence than to heat. So I see the various seasons a bit like this: - Spring Maid - A relationship connected to the 'innocence' of blooming love in Spring. The song about the 'forest lass' and 'forest lad' connected to the green colour of spring suggests better equality between partners in this type of 'Spring' relationship. The main example I see of this is Ashara Dayne, who conducted her relationship with a Stark (probably Ned) in the False Spring. As Harwin said, at the time they were young, in love and unattached - what does it matter? But then, the course of Robert's Rebellion leave Ned unable to marry Ashara, because he has to fulfil his Stark obligations and marry Catelyn. Thus, Ashara Dayne, heavily pregnant, becomes 'dishonoured' as Ned is unable to marry her. Ned's abandonment of her, plus her brother's death, causes her suicide, turning her into the 'winter' maid. - Summer Maid - Feisty women prime for stealing. I think women start off as Summer Maids in the moment of stealing, and then becomes 'autumn' maids is they steal back some heat (Ygritte, Val, Asha) or go stone cold winter maids if too much is stolen (Jeyne Poole). - Autumn Maid - 'Red' women who recover heat. (Maybe Melisandre is worth looking at here, as she has had a relationship with Stannis and is always connected to heat?) - Winter Maid - Women who have always had their heat 'stolen'. Examples include Lyanna (by death), Ashara (by death) and Jeyne (by Ramsay's cruelty). So, if we see the women that we've looked at so far, these are the transitions they've made: - Ashara - Spring => Winter - Lyanna - Spring/Summer => Winter (more to look at here) - Asha - Summer => Winter (more to look at here) - Ygritte - Autumn => Winter - Jeyne - Spring/Summer => Winter (Spring or Summer?) - Nissa Nissa - Autumn More to look at (Gilly, Melisandre etc.) I will try to look tomorrow, because I'm very busy today! Another area of research could be Delena Florent, mother of Edric Storm, who Robert stole/carried off/slept with on Stannis' wedding night. And maybe Ramsay's mother, who was raped by Roose, and who brought forth winter in the form of Ramsay. 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joluoto2 Posted March 10, 2016 Share Posted March 10, 2016 I'd like this topic more if it was called the BEARDS OF WESTEROS CAN SEE THE FUTURE, because I Think BEARDS deserve all caps more than BARDS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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