Why Daenery's will not win the game of thrones

[MGraham]

28 minutes ago, W. Wrycthen said:

If the generation of the dragons and her "unburnt" status can be a "one-time magical event", then her stillborn child may also be a one-time thing.

Not quite sure i understand this.... So you saying that if her dragons being born and not being burnt in the funeral pyre where 1 offs (ie she can't hatch more dragons and future fire would burn here) then she can also have children?

[Richard Writhen]

4 minutes ago, MGraham said:

Not quite sure i understand this.... So you saying that if her dragons being born and not being burnt in the funeral pyre where 1 offs (ie she can't hatch more dragons and future fire would burn here) then she can also have children?

Exactly. A month or three ago some people were saying Targs were fireproof. However, some found references to GRRM saying that was not necessarily so, that in the pyre incident she was unburnt and thus notorious for it but she would not be immune in general. So magic in ASOIAF has transient properties. Her first child may have been stillborn and mutated because of Mirri Maz Duur's direct interference, but if Dani tried to have more kids she may be successful.

[MGraham]

9 minutes ago, W. Wrycthen said:

Exactly. A month or three ago some people were saying Targs were fireproof. However, some found references to GRRM saying that was not necessarily so, that in the pyre incident she was unburnt and thus notorious for it but she would not be immune in general. So magic in ASOIAF has transient properties. Her first child may have been stillborn and mutated because of Mirri Maz Duur's direct interference, but if Dani tried to have more kids she may be successful.

She might, but MMD did hint she was barren. As everyone has pointed out this may not be permanent but i think it will be. 

[Richard Writhen]

6 minutes ago, MGraham said:

She might, but MMD did hint she was barren. As everyone has pointed out this may not be permanent but i think it will be. 

Witches lie, lawl.

[shadows and dust]

21 hours ago, MGraham said:

This is something i can agree with. When GRRM originally wrote his premise for the book series, he talked about her returning home to reclaim the throne. But this was before she got so bogged down in Essos. I think he's then retrospectively added Aegon to fulfill this role whilst Dany stays in Essos.

Yea, that's what I've seen in the Aegon plotline too. I think as the knot grew GRRM changes his mind and realized it was easier to write through Danny staying in Essos and Aegon fulfilling the conquering foreign royal.

I think the pivot-of-no-return is Danny's assumed trek with the Dothraki. She could travel west after breaking the siege lines outside her city.... Or she could get carried away by a dragon and leave the story to bond with the horse people. There isn't time -imo- for her to have both experiences. The books are big, but they aren't that big. I think her last chapter was GRRM admitting to himself Danny on the IT just isn't playing itself out.

[MGraham]

3 hours ago, shadows and dust said:

Yea, that's what I've seen in the Aegon plotline too. I think as the knot grew GRRM changes his mind and realized it was easier to write through Danny staying in Essos and Aegon fulfilling the conquering foreign royal.

I think the pivot-of-no-return is Danny's assumed trek with the Dothraki. She could travel west after breaking the siege lines outside her city.... Or she could get carried away by a dragon and leave the story to bond with the horse people. There isn't time -imo- for her to have both experiences. The books are big, but they aren't that big. I think her last chapter was GRRM admitting to himself Danny on the IT just isn't playing itself out.

My thoughts exactly, especially with the timing. Look at how far she has come in 5 books.... she's achieved a lot but at this pace she'll never make it back to Westeros.

[norwaywolf123]

On 1.3.2016 at 1:04 AM, MGraham said:

2 books to go. I can see Jon becoming the dominant force in the north during that time. I can see him fighting the WW and holding their power in check.

In the time we have left i can't see him subduing the Vale, Riverlands, Westerlands, Kings Landing, Storm Lands, Dorne and the Reach. The vale, maybe? Riverlands probably, but the others? If he defeats the Boltons and in effect becomes ruler of the north, he could move south to press a claim but he would have left the WW at his rear. He would have the Lannisters and the Reach against him at least. Aegon and his forces would also be against him.

We would need a compromise peace to put Jon on the throne, Dorne and the Reach are clearly playing their own game, Lannisters and Starks can likely never be reconciled and the Stormlands will likely be in control of Aegon at the start of WOW. Littlefinger wants Sansa in the North so the Vale would be against him (unless Littlefinger adapts which is possible)

Even as de-facto King of the North, which of these other factions would support Jon as king? Even if R+L = J how would he convince the whole realm of it and would they care? Would Jon want to be king? even if he does would he be ruthless enough to take it.

Aegon (legitimate or not) has a chance. He has the Golden company. He will have captured some/all of the storm lands. It's possible that he can bring Dorne or the Reach to his side, possibly with marriage packs. With one or both of these he could likely oust the Lannisters. At this point, Littlefinger may well start making offers to join him (unless Vary's prevents this) and likely the Riverlands would not want or be able to object.

Aegon has no objection to Jon, he could make a deal with him making him (or Rickon) Warden of the North to placate them he could even name him king of the north but still subservient to the Iron Throne. On the other hand, Jon could not offer Aegon anything to make him support Jon as king.

If Aegon (or any other contender) where to kill the Lannisters and offer to pardon the Northerners for any crimes and help against the WW, would Jon turn this down to press his own claim to the Throne? I think not.

Replace Aegon with Daenery's if you wish, the arguments are still the same (except she could marry Jon)

I dont think fAegon will kill the Lannisters. I thibk he will be merciful and they will follow him against daenerys. Myrcella is dead but i think tommen will survive and marry danys daughter. Tommen represnets daeron the good and Dany Rhaneyra

[MGraham]

 

2 hours ago, norwaywolf123 said:

I dont think fAegon will kill the Lannisters. I thibk he will be merciful and they will follow him against daenerys. Myrcella is dead but i think tommen will survive and marry danys daughter. Tommen represnets daeron the good and Dany Rhaneyra

 

Just to point out Mycella isn't dead in the books.... yet

[The Great and Mighty Poo]

On 3/22/2016 at 4:41 PM, W. Wrycthen said:

Exactly. A month or three ago some people were saying Targs were fireproof. However, some found references to GRRM saying that was not necessarily so, that in the pyre incident she was unburnt and thus notorious for it but she would not be immune in general. So magic in ASOIAF has transient properties. Her first child may have been stillborn and mutated because of Mirri Maz Duur's direct interference, but if Dani tried to have more kids she may be successful.

A month or 3? It was like 3 years ago and it's still common with just show watchers.

[Gala]

On 3/21/2016 at 11:41 PM, Writhen said:

Exactly. A month or three ago some people were saying Targs were fireproof. However, some found references to GRRM saying that was not necessarily so, that in the pyre incident she was unburnt and thus notorious for it but she would not be immune in general. So magic in ASOIAF has transient properties. Her first child may have been stillborn and mutated because of Mirri Maz Duur's direct interference, but if Dani tried to have more kids she may be successful.

MMD does not have anything to do with this...Targs have a long history of giving birth to stillborn and mutated, disfigured children, even looking like half of dragons themselves (like Dany's child). Although, I do not think Dany is barren, she is just convinced that she is. And what she experienced in the end of last book seems like either a "restoration" of your period or miscarriage...

[Richard Writhen]

@GalaHer child came out looking like a lizard. No "normal" mutation. I think the witch may have had a bit of a hand in that pie.

@The Great and Mighty Poo Close enough.

[Gala]

20 hours ago, Writhen said:

@GalaHer child came out looking like a lizard. No "normal" mutation. I think the witch may have had a bit of a hand in that pie.

@The Great and Mighty Poo Close enough.

There is nothing too normal in this books. I am sorry, but have you ever read anything else, like Dunk and Egg stories, World of Ice and Fire... For example, if I am not mistaken in The Princess and the Queen (a real Dance with Dragons), Rhaenyra Targaryen gave birth to the stillborn girl, deformed the way Dany's child was, like a lizard with wings and with hole where the heart should have been. There was no witch there. 

And that's one of the cases, at least one that was clearly mentioned in the story and described. That's why I said that this was actually pretty common in Valyrian blood, particularly the Targs. 

[Richard Writhen]

On ‎5‎/‎22‎/‎2016 at 11:12 AM, Gala said:

There is nothing too normal in this books. I am sorry, but have you ever read anything else, like Dunk and Egg stories, World of Ice and Fire... For example, if I am not mistaken in The Princess and the Queen (a real Dance with Dragons), Rhaenyra Targaryen gave birth to the stillborn girl, deformed the way Dany's child was, like a lizard with wings and with hole where the heart should have been. There was no witch there. 

And that's one of the cases, at least one that was clearly mentioned in the story and described. That's why I said that this was actually pretty common in Valyrian blood, particularly the Targs. 

 

I have read AKOTSK, but not TWOIAF. It's been a few months since I read TPATQ so the birth you describe may be possible. I still think the witch had a lot to do with it.

[Gala]

21 hours ago, Writhen said:

 

I have read AKOTSK, but not TWOIAF. It's been a few months since I read TPATQ so the birth you describe may be possible. I still think the witch had a lot to do with it.

I understand. In my opinion MMD has nothing to do with it. I think if Dany had an opportunity to give birth in normal conditions, the result would be the same. Taking into account that things like that had happened to Targs before. I am not trying to persuade you or something. I prefer relay on facts I really have. 

[Richard Writhen]

3 hours ago, Gala said:

I understand. In my opinion MMD has nothing to do with it. I think if Dany had an opportunity to give birth in normal conditions, the result would be the same. Taking into account that things like that had happened to Targs before. I am not trying to persuade you or something. I prefer relay on facts I really have. 

You have a right to your opinion, and me to mine. Enjoy your day.

[ThePrinceThatKnewNothing]

Is she actually barren though? She begins to bleed again at the end of Dance, most think it's her having a miscarriage and that it means she'll be able to have children again. 

Funnily enough I'm starting to think she'll actually surive this story. It's too obvious to have Jon being the man to survive this book, the son of ice and fire, Azor Ahai reborn. I think Jon will sacrifice himself for Dany and for the world and this will be Danys treason for love.

Also when Dany arrives in Westeros she'll win the game of thrones by ending it, she'll realise the war is with the Others not the other great houses. She'll then destroy the iron throne with Dragon fire

[Syphon the Sanitator]

I personally think that her last betrayal has not yet happened and that she will die of this last one.

[Springwatch]

On 5/21/2016 at 5:54 PM, Gala said:

MMD does not have anything to do with this...Targs have a long history of giving birth to stillborn and mutated, disfigured children, even looking like half of dragons themselves (like Dany's child). Although, I do not think Dany is barren, she is just convinced that she is. And what she experienced in the end of last book seems like either a "restoration" of your period or miscarriage...

Targs do sometimes give birth to babies with dragon-like defects, but Mirri said in addition Dany's child looked like he had been dead for years. That might be Mirri being cruel, but Jorah was also there, and he didn't contradict her.

It's possible the age of the eggs was transferred to Rhaego.

[Euron's Mom]

My biggest problem is that if Daenerys comes to Westeros, defeats the White Walkers, saves the day and restores the Targaryen Line, she is basically Aragorn.  I thought George Martin was deliberately trying to deconstruct the traditional fantasy hero tropes (especially Lord of the Rings)?  Dany being the hero just feels too easy and obvious.  To me, this smells a lot of Robb Stark.

I like the theory better that she will end up being the primary villain in the end.  I picture it something like from Babylon 5, where the Others are the Shadows and Dany is the Vorlons.  Both are going to mean death and destruction for the people of Westeros (the Others ice and Dany fire).

[Whitering]

She will take the Iron Throne from Aegon, then die in the battle against the Others, and Sansa or Arya will become the sole ruler of Westeros, probably Sansa, but maybe after Arya, like Mary and Elizabeth.