voldemormont Posted March 2, 2016 Share Posted March 2, 2016 2 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said: It gets me thinking, did BR skinchange the Stark kids Direwolves from time to time, and when the Stark kids(mainly Bran as his power seems strongest) begun to feel the connection with their wolves, would they notice somebody had shared the wolves skin? Hmm. Interesting. If he did, you can automatically excluded Summer. Bran has been warging summer for a long time. In the cave, he wargs a Crow and feels the presence of another. Once warged a person leaves a part of itself with the animal. If BR ever used Summer, Bran would have sensed it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LiveFirstDieLater Posted March 2, 2016 Author Share Posted March 2, 2016 3 hours ago, Regular John Umber said: Why would he not know how he was appearing? Surely the "Say, got any corn?" line betrays a self-awareness on the part of the 3EC? Also, the whole dream is about flying, and having a third eye. The avatar was chosen, and if BR was the 3EC, he would know that he had chosen a crow. I agree with this^ About the corn though, would you say kernels of corn are seeds? Do we know if Bran can still have kids? Did Bran "give his seed" to the 3eC? because he might be falling into one of Nan's stories faster than he thought... Or maybe the crow is trying to head this off at the pass... Did the 3eC take his seed to try and protect him, like he seems to have taken the 3rd eye... Or the memory of Jaime... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Storm Posted March 2, 2016 Share Posted March 2, 2016 6 hours ago, sarah.jenice said: I wish we knew more about how the Reed know so much about greenseeing. I especially am curious about Howland Reed's reaction of dispatching his (presumably) only children to Winterfell on a dangerous mission based on Jojen's dream. He must have some reason to believe in green sight and powers of the old gods. Don't we know that Howland spent a significant amount of time on the Isle of Faces before the tourney at Harrenhal? I've kind of always been of the belief he had more of plan with Jojen and Meera than we think and that he learned a lot about Greenseeing there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sarah.jenice Posted March 2, 2016 Share Posted March 2, 2016 22 minutes ago, Rob Storm said: Don't we know that Howland spent a significant amount of time on the Isle of Faces before the tourney at Harrenhal? I've kind of always been of the belief he had more of plan with Jojen and Meera than we think and that he learned a lot about Greenseeing there. I forgot about that. Thanks for the reminder! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macgregor of the North Posted March 2, 2016 Share Posted March 2, 2016 7 hours ago, sarah.jenice said: Great read, OP! You have a lot of interesting points, but I th ink it's important to remember that Bran isn't the only one who saw the 3EC. Jojen did, too, and his 3EC visits also started after surviving a life-threatening situation, which seems to point to that being necessary/helpful in awakening greenseer gifts. Jojen also tells Bran the 3EC is north of the Wall, which supports him being one in the same with the man in the cave. That said, I do think your idea of the 3EC being future is something worth considering. You might have already caught this from ACoK, but just in case, here's another indication that two different people are communicating with Br Can't seem to get rid of this quote! I'm just gonna post in the hope it goes away cos I can't seem to quote any other posts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LiveFirstDieLater Posted March 2, 2016 Author Share Posted March 2, 2016 10 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said: Can't seem to get rid of this quote! I'm just gonna post in the hope it goes away cos I can't seem to quote any other posts Haha sucks to suck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macgregor of the North Posted March 2, 2016 Share Posted March 2, 2016 1 minute ago, LiveFirstDieLater said: Haha sucks to suck It went away Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jak Scaletongue Posted March 2, 2016 Share Posted March 2, 2016 1 hour ago, LiveFirstDieLater said: So I know the idea of BR running around in animal skins is a popular one around here, but do we get any evidence of it? I mean a Greenseer can already see far beyond the Weirwoods themselves, so while I'm not saying BR wouldn't be capable of controlling animals, do we ever actually get evidence that he is? The other explanation for Mormont's Raven and Balerion is that there is still a price of a person lingering in there... Hard to know who with the Raven, but the princess still lingering in the cat fits very well with pestering Tywin at dinner and leading Arya to Varys. I'm just trying to question it all... So, I was under the impression that a bond has to be created between human and animal before skinchanging can take place. With the birds in the cave it's a bit easier, because they've been "ridden" before and seem like they know they're "training wheels" so to speak. So how would BR bond with Balerion the cat? The cat likely hasn't been in the Keep since BR's time, and BR hasn't been to KL in nearly a century! (I kind of like the idea that Rhaenys instinctively began a second life in her kitty - not sold on it, but I like it!) Now, Mormont's raven I can see possible being one of BR's animals. The Wall is close enough to the cave that BR could send one or some of his cave ravens to the Wall and Mormont. (I do wonder if Mormont was a skinchanger, though...he really likes those ravens!) But the wolves - doesn't Haggon imply that wolves are "for life"? Varamyr took Haggon's wolf from him, but didn't he actually have to kill Haggon? None of the Stark kids (that we've seen, anyway) have had to "fight" for their bond with their wolf. Maybe it's just me, but I always got the impression that two [living] people couldn't "share" an animal. Like, Arya and Sansa couldn't "share" Nymeria (as an example). Maybe it just comes down to training, but Haggon seemed to understand what he was talking about (clearly he doesn't know *everything* - no one does, not even BR; they are human). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LiveFirstDieLater Posted March 2, 2016 Author Share Posted March 2, 2016 14 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said: It went away Well thank goodness, worried about you there for a minute kilt man Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LiveFirstDieLater Posted March 2, 2016 Author Share Posted March 2, 2016 7 minutes ago, Jak Scaletongue said: So, I was under the impression that a bond has to be created between human and animal before skinchanging can take place. With the birds in the cave it's a bit easier, because they've been "ridden" before and seem like they know they're "training wheels" so to speak. So how would BR bond with Balerion the cat? The cat likely hasn't been in the Keep since BR's time, and BR hasn't been to KL in nearly a century! (I kind of like the idea that Rhaenys instinctively began a second life in her kitty - not sold on it, but I like it!) Now, Mormont's raven I can see possible being one of BR's animals. The Wall is close enough to the cave that BR could send one or some of his cave ravens to the Wall and Mormont. (I do wonder if Mormont was a skinchanger, though...he really likes those ravens!) But the wolves - doesn't Haggon imply that wolves are "for life"? Varamyr took Haggon's wolf from him, but didn't he actually have to kill Haggon? None of the Stark kids (that we've seen, anyway) have had to "fight" for their bond with their wolf. Maybe it's just me, but I always got the impression that two [living] people couldn't "share" an animal. Like, Arya and Sansa couldn't "share" Nymeria (as an example). Maybe it just comes down to training, but Haggon seemed to understand what he was talking about (clearly he doesn't know *everything* - no one does, not even BR; they are human). Haggon, while as you say doesn't know everything not is his word set in stone, gives us our only real look at the "rules" of warging... eating the flesh of man and warging a person stand out because Bran has already done these things... Mating is also notably on the list... One has to assume that these rules exist for a reason... Especially given that BloodRaven is a notorious breaker of the rules of the Old Gods... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macgregor of the North Posted March 2, 2016 Share Posted March 2, 2016 6 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said: Well thank goodness, worried about you there for a minute kilt man Haha. Is there actually a proper way to get rid of that on mobile without doing what I did(just posting it). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jak Scaletongue Posted March 2, 2016 Share Posted March 2, 2016 6 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said: Haggon, while as you say doesn't know everything not is his word set in stone, gives us our only real look at the "rules" of warging... eating the flesh of man and warging a person stand out because Bran has already done these things... Mating is also notably on the list... One has to assume that these rules exist for a reason... Especially given that BloodRaven is a notorious breaker of the rules of the Old Gods... I got the impression (and I know everyone gets their own impressions while reading, I'm just saying what mine were not that yours are wrong) that the wolves not being shared part had more to do with the minds of the wolves than the "rules" Haggon laid down. He used the "mate for life" analogy - which is a wolf instinct/nature rather than a "rule" the wolves made, so it gave me the impression that the "for life" part of warging wolves was the nature of the wolves themselves, rather than simply a human "rule." IF it is the nature of the wolves to only share their skin with one person at a time, then I don't see how BR could be warging the Stark's wolves. Wolves can be coerced into swapping loyalties (as Varamyr proved), but even then it was at the expense of Haggon's life (or at least, Haggon's sanity). But with the whole Varamyr/Haggon incident, I got the impression that it's more about the nature of the wolves than any human rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LiveFirstDieLater Posted March 2, 2016 Author Share Posted March 2, 2016 Just now, Jak Scaletongue said: I got the impression (and I know everyone gets their own impressions while reading, I'm just saying what mine were not that yours are wrong) that the wolves not being shared part had more to do with the minds of the wolves than the "rules" Haggon laid down. He used the "mate for life" analogy - which is a wolf instinct/nature rather than a "rule" the wolves made, so it gave me the impression that the "for life" part of warging wolves was the nature of the wolves themselves, rather than simply a human "rule." IF it is the nature of the wolves to only share their skin with one person at a time, then I don't see how BR could be warging the Stark's wolves. Wolves can be coerced into swapping loyalties (as Varamyr proved), but even then it was at the expense of Haggon's life (or at least, Haggon's sanity). But with the whole Varamyr/Haggon incident, I got the impression that it's more about the nature of the wolves than any human rules. I see what you are saying, and I think I agree... Maybe it is similar to how we learn that while a dragon might have multiple riders over the years, a man can only ride one dragon... And it seems that they form a single pair at a time (I don't think a dragon ever had two riders at once)... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LiveFirstDieLater Posted March 2, 2016 Author Share Posted March 2, 2016 16 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said: Haha. Is there actually a proper way to get rid of that on mobile without doing what I did(just posting it). It happened to me once before and when I logged out and back in on my phone it fixed it... But bugs suck so who knows Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macgregor of the North Posted March 2, 2016 Share Posted March 2, 2016 1 minute ago, LiveFirstDieLater said: It happened to me once before and when I logged out and back in on my phone it fixed it... But bugs suck so who knows I'll do that next time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jak Scaletongue Posted March 2, 2016 Share Posted March 2, 2016 14 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said: I see what you are saying, and I think I agree... Maybe it is similar to how we learn that while a dragon might have multiple riders over the years, a man can only ride one dragon... And it seems that they form a single pair at a time (I don't think a dragon ever had two riders at once)... I didn't even think of tying dragons in - but yeah, that's a good analogy. I don't think a dragon has ever had two riders at once, either. It even seems, in some cases, that there's a gap between one rider dying and another rider being accepted - but that just might be the few I picked to look up (Vermithor, Silverwing and Balerion - but Maegor seemed to be waiting for Balerion, so maybe he started "bonding" early while not being allowed by Balerion to ride). Both Vermithor and Sliverwing weren't ridden again until the Dance of the Dragons and people got desperate! So either those two refused all other riders, or the available riders didn't want those two (why not? Vermithor was nearly as big as Vhagar and Balerion). I'm rambling - I'm gonna stop now! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted March 2, 2016 Share Posted March 2, 2016 2 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said: That is so not heretical of you! This was my first read explanation in my head, but the 3eC appears to Jojen too, so doesn't it seem odd that this repeated image they both recognize wouldn't be known to the man behind the mask? I have a lot of trouble reconciling this... also love the heresy threads, haven't read them all, but wanted to start my own discussion here... Thanks for the contribution As a Blackwood of Raventree Hall its pretty natural that he should appear as a three-eyed-crow [or three-eyed raven] and I've no doubt that he and the crow are one and the same. I'm just offering this as an explanation for why he himself seems a touch vague about it and suggesting that the vagueness shouldn't be read as indicating that they are different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LiveFirstDieLater Posted March 2, 2016 Author Share Posted March 2, 2016 46 minutes ago, Black Crow said: As a Blackwood of Raventree Hall its pretty natural that he should appear as a three-eyed-crow [or three-eyed raven] and I've no doubt that he and the crow are one and the same. I'm just offering this as an explanation for why he himself seems a touch vague about it and suggesting that the vagueness shouldn't be read as indicating that they are different. Interesting, although he presumably gave up his arms when he joined the nights watch... Probably one of the dragon shields in the sheildhall at castle black I suppose... His arms were a white dragon on a black field But I hear what you are saying, I just don't agree... Vagueness might not be proof but it is very odd, and I think, noteworthy. It's one thing to dodge a question, another to not understand what is being asked I still don't know that the Raven calling the crows black makes them the same beast... Get it... I'd have thought BR might appear as a one eyed red Raven, or white dragon, or as I've said, as the white and red heart tree. I also don't understand how or why BloodRaven would lead Bran to the Stark Crypts, as the three eyes crow does... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snowisnobastard Posted March 2, 2016 Share Posted March 2, 2016 ....Except Brynden Rivers (Bloodraven) has been confirmed to be the man that Bran meets in the cave by both HBO and GRRM. I don't have the time or the need to post a link to prove it but the info is out there, hell it's probably even on the wiki page. Check it out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jak Scaletongue Posted March 2, 2016 Share Posted March 2, 2016 1 hour ago, Black Crow said: As a Blackwood of Raventree Hall its pretty natural that he should appear as a three-eyed-crow [or three-eyed raven] and I've no doubt that he and the crow are one and the same. I'm just offering this as an explanation for why he himself seems a touch vague about it and suggesting that the vagueness shouldn't be read as indicating that they are different. But crows and ravens aren't the same type of bird. They share a genus, but they're different species. It's like saying dogs and wolves are the same. They share a genus, too, but they're very different species. Crow and Raven are as interchangeable as Dog and Wolf (which is to say, not interchangeable). [Apparently, even dogs and wolves are more closely associated - they not only share Genus:Canis but also Species:Lupus, it's in the Subspecies that they get separated. A dog (Canis Lupus Familiaris) is a subspecies of Canis Lupus (wolves). There are other subspecies of wolves as well, but all dogs are CLF then separated by breeds. Crows and Ravens are all under the Genus:Corvus then separated into species (ie: Corvus brachyrhynchos is the American Crow and Corvus corax is the Common Raven. Mostly from wikipedia. But here's a good site too: http://www.diffen.com/difference/Crow_vs_Raven] Brynden Rivers is both Bloodraven and, formerly, a Black Crow. And I suppose, even with the technical loss of an eye the "third" eye is more symbolic of seeing things that others can't, and not an actual count of functional eyes (symbolic or otherwise). But he just sounds so confused when Bran mentions the three-eyed crow, and assumes Bran's talking of his Night's Watch days..... This is one of those arguments where I'm not really sure what I think! I'm neither for nor against! Just hanging out on my fence and waiting for more info! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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