kissdbyfire Posted March 25, 2016 Share Posted March 25, 2016 3 minutes ago, HelenaExMachina said: If it's one of your own threads, can you not track it through "My Activity" page? Some great posts here, although I'm mostly just reading rather than contributing here Yeah, a thread I started... Dunno 3-4 yrs ago? I did try to find it a couple of years back, and I went through my content and all, but couldn't find it. I just assumed it'd been deleted completely or something. That was before the upgrade, of course. I'll have another look now, who knows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissdbyfire Posted March 25, 2016 Share Posted March 25, 2016 2 minutes ago, evita mgfs said: Why thank you very much. I also found an instance in AFfC wherein Arya serves the Faceless Men, "Standing there with the flagon in her hands, she dreamed she was a wolf, running free through a moonlit forest with a great pack howling at her heels" [462]. I took this to be a conscious Arya having a "waking" wolf dream- or a conscious warg experience - from across the Narrow Sea. At least I thought the wolf is Nymeria, Arya's direwolf racing through the Riverlands with her wolf pack hot on her heels. Arya seems to have strong powers, not quite on a par with Bran, but pretty close behind him. Perhaps her training as a Faceless assassin serves to awaken her warg and skinchanging spirit. BTW/ I do think Bran will master controlling multiple entities . I remember that passage. Is it when she's sort of in attendance at a FM meeting? I think it's the meeting that put the idea in my head that Illyrio is a FM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evita mgfs Posted March 25, 2016 Share Posted March 25, 2016 1 minute ago, kissdbyfire said: I remember that passage. Is it when she's sort of in attendance at a FM meeting? I think it's the meeting that put the idea in my head that Illyrio is a FM. Yeah! I was afraid I would not be able to find it - and I was going to ask you because I know you have the texts pretty much memorized word-for-word! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissdbyfire Posted March 25, 2016 Share Posted March 25, 2016 4 minutes ago, evita mgfs said: Yeah! I was afraid I would not be able to find it - and I was going to ask you because I know you have the texts pretty much memorized word-for-word! LOL I wish! @HelenaExMachina, I just had a look at "my content" (it's called something else now), and just saw that all the threads I started are gone save for a couple of R&R and something else from a couple of week ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HexMachina Posted March 25, 2016 Share Posted March 25, 2016 7 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said: LOL I wish! @HelenaExMachina, I just had a look at "my content" (it's called something else now), and just saw that all the threads I started are gone save for a couple of R&R and something else from a couple of week ago. Huh? I can View Activity in your profile and it goes right back to...I think it was "Ned's Mother aka 'Lady Stark'". Couldn't see your warging one but it definitely went back more than a couple of weeks. I was looking under the "Posts" subheading though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissdbyfire Posted March 25, 2016 Share Posted March 25, 2016 1 minute ago, HelenaExMachina said: Huh? I can View Activity in your profile and it goes right back to...I think it was "Ned's Mother aka 'Lady Stark'". Couldn't see your warning one but it definitely went back more than a couple of weeks. I was looking under the "Posts" subheading though How odd. I must be doing something wrong. Will have another look. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HexMachina Posted March 25, 2016 Share Posted March 25, 2016 1 minute ago, kissdbyfire said: How odd. I must be doing something wrong. Will have another look. In my previous post I meant to say it was under Topics, not Posts. Here is the page I was looking at if that helps Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fattest Leech Posted March 25, 2016 Author Share Posted March 25, 2016 23 minutes ago, evita mgfs said: Why thank you very much. I also found an instance in AFfC wherein Arya serves the Faceless Men, "Standing there with the flagon in her hands, she dreamed she was a wolf, running free through a moonlit forest with a great pack howling at her heels" [462]. I took this to be a conscious Arya having a "waking" wolf dream- or a conscious warg experience - from across the Narrow Sea. At least I thought the wolf is Nymeria, Arya's direwolf racing through the Riverlands with her wolf pack hot on her heels. Arya seems to have strong powers, not quite on a par with Bran, but pretty close behind him. Perhaps her training as a Faceless assassin serves to awaken her warg and skinchanging spirit. BTW/ I do think Bran will master controlling multiple entities . The screaming is great. I remember smiling and feeling all warm and fuzzy when I read the transition Bran made from screaming to words as he skinchanged The only one I have more questions about is the screaming hinges. Aeron has a screaming hinge experience with Euron that many take as evidence Euron sexually attacked him. I can't paste book quotes so easily right now because I'm on my maxi pad, but this link may help as a refresher. this link Maybe screaming hinges is a warning but the transition from screaming to talking is gaining control? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissdbyfire Posted March 25, 2016 Share Posted March 25, 2016 3 minutes ago, HelenaExMachina said: In my previous post I meant to say it was under Topics, not Posts. Here is the page I was looking at if that helps That was a different page, and had more topics but there are many missing, the one in question here being one of those. I may have the OP n my computer, I'll have a look tomorrow as I'm already tucked in for the night. Tks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evita mgfs Posted March 25, 2016 Share Posted March 25, 2016 11 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said: The screaming is great. I remember smiling and feeling all warm and fuzzy when I read the transition Bran made from screaming to words as he skinchanged The only one I have more questions about is the screaming hinges. Aeron has a screaming hinge experience with Euron that many take as evidence Euron sexually attacked him. I can't paste book quotes so easily right now because I'm on my maxi pad, but this link may help as a refresher. this link Maybe screaming hinges is a warning but the transition from screaming to talking is gaining control? Yes, gaining control. Nice Catch! I hoped to show Bran's progression, which I believe Martin brilliantly documents for his obsessive readers like me! I am not certain about the screaming hinges, although I have been trying to evidence that Bran exercises control over inanimate objects as he becomes one with the living magic the CotF wove into the bricks that built Winterfell and its outlying structures. So, you see, if my logic is on point, then Bran is literally and metaphorically "The Stark in Winterfell" - as Bran is in its walls as well as in the heart tree in the godswood. Har Har! My theory does not seem to be a popular one - other posters elsewhere have discredited it. However, I do have a thread devoted to Bran's growing powers, and those who post there have found some pretty awesome evidences that support a variety of Bran's manifestations. We are having a good time - and that is what it is all about. We try not to take ourselves too seriously, but we rely on textual references to authenticate our analytical thoughts. Thanks for the link! I look forward to reading it! Actually, I LOVE this thread. I will be back to share more ideas and theories that are relevant to the OP's discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fattest Leech Posted March 25, 2016 Author Share Posted March 25, 2016 6 minutes ago, evita mgfs said: Yes, gaining control. Nice Catch! I hoped to show Bran's progression, which I believe Martin brilliantly documents for his obsessive readers like me! I am not certain about the screaming hinges, although I have been trying to evidence that Bran exercises control over inanimate objects as he becomes one with the living magic the CotF wove into the bricks that built Winterfell and its outlying structures. So, you see, if my logic is on point, then Bran is literally and metaphorically "The Stark in Winterfell" - as Bran is in its walls as well as in the heart tree in the godswood. Har Har! My theory does not seem to be a popular one - other posters elsewhere have discredited it. However, I do have a thread devoted to Bran's growing powers, and those who post there have found some pretty awesome evidences that support a variety of Bran's manifestations. We are having a good time - and that is what it is all about. We try not to take ourselves too seriously, but we rely on textual references to authenticate our analytical thoughts. Thanks for the link! I look forward to reading it! Actually, I LOVE this thread. I will be back to share more ideas and theories that are relevant to the OP's discussion. This one? I have been reading it and catching up every so often Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evita mgfs Posted March 25, 2016 Share Posted March 25, 2016 23 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said: The screaming is great. I remember smiling and feeling all warm and fuzzy when I read the transition Bran made from screaming to words as he skinchanged The only one I have more questions about is the screaming hinges. Aeron has a screaming hinge experience with Euron that many take as evidence Euron sexually attacked him. I can't paste book quotes so easily right now because I'm on my maxi pad, but this link may help as a refresher. this link Maybe screaming hinges is a warning but the transition from screaming to talking is gaining control? YEP! I just signed up to follow you! I have read lots of your posts here and elsewhere. I have a feeling you will teach me a lot. You go Girl! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fattest Leech Posted March 25, 2016 Author Share Posted March 25, 2016 1 hour ago, evita mgfs said: YEP! I just signed up to follow you! I have read lots of your posts here and elsewhere. I have a feeling you will teach me a lot. You go Girl! Mom. Is that you? Some may say you are crazy for doing that. Crazy like a fox Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fattest Leech Posted March 28, 2016 Author Share Posted March 28, 2016 Ok, it does seem apparent that there are different levels of skinchangers/wargs as Varamyr points out in his prologue. This is a line that somehow skipped my memory in times past. "And he taught me the way of the warg and the secrets of the skinchanger, though my gift was stronger than his own." So maybe a few, basic, rules for Skinchanging from easiest to hardest: 1. Dogs were the easiest beasts to bond with; they lived so close to men that they were almost human. 1a. THIS makes you a warg and not every skinchanger can just take a wolf> Wolves were harder. A man might befriend a wolf, even break a wolf, but no man could truly tame a wolf. 2. Elk and deer were prey; wear their skins too long, and even the bravest man became a coward. 3. Cats were vain and cruel, always ready to turn on you. 4. Bears, boars, badgers, weasels … Haggon did not hold with such. “Some skins you never want to wear, boy. You won’t like what you’d become.” 5. Birds were the worst, to hear him tell it.“Men were not meant to leave the earth. Spend too much time in the clouds and you never want to come back down again. I know skinchangers who’ve tried hawks, owls, ravens. Even in their own skins, they sit moony, staring up at the bloody blue.” 6. Humans. This, by the laws of skinchangers and wargs, is an abomination to do and the hardest. "to seize the body of another man was the worst abomination of all." Clearly Hodor protests and is scared the first several times we read of Bran warging him, but then he reluctantly accepts Bran. Thistle also has a very negative, screaming fit when Varamyr wargs her. A few more questions I have are: How hard is it to warg a dragon, IF they can be warged? What is the level of consciousness the warger has in their own body while they are warging? We know a few skinchangers can hold a few animals at once, even while changed into another. Arya seems to be able to change into that cat and use its eyes, but Bran just lays there. Sorry for the repeat question, but I ask this again because this still seems a lose end and I am just looking for a wider concensus. And, do you really have to be a greenseer to see through a tree? Varymar has this experience as his true body is dying: "Varamyr was inside the owl, inside the hare, inside the trees." What then makes you raise to the greenseer level??? The supposed third tier level of visual gold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissdbyfire Posted March 29, 2016 Share Posted March 29, 2016 On 28/03/2016 at 0:04 AM, The Fattest Leech said: Ok, it does seem apparent that there are different levels of skinchangers/wargs as Varamyr points out in his prologue. This is a line that somehow skipped my memory in times past. "And he taught me the way of the warg and the secrets of the skinchanger, though my gift was stronger than his own." I tend to take what Varamyr says with a pinch of salt. I know there are a lot of people that believe the point of having Varamyr's PoV in Dance was to show us the dangers and what's involved in skinchanging/warging, and what happens when a skinchanger dies etc. And I agree to some degree, but I don't think that's all we are meant to take from it. Quote So maybe a few, basic, rules for Skinchanging from easiest to hardest: 1. Dogs were the easiest beasts to bond with; they lived so close to men that they were almost human. 1a. THIS makes you a warg and not every skinchanger can just take a wolf> Wolves were harder. A man might befriend a wolf, even break a wolf, but no man could truly tame a wolf. 2. Elk and deer were prey; wear their skins too long, and even the bravest man became a coward. 3. Cats were vain and cruel, always ready to turn on you. 4. Bears, boars, badgers, weasels … Haggon did not hold with such. “Some skins you never want to wear, boy. You won’t like what you’d become.” 5. Birds were the worst, to hear him tell it.“Men were not meant to leave the earth. Spend too much time in the clouds and you never want to come back down again. I know skinchangers who’ve tried hawks, owls, ravens. Even in their own skins, they sit moony, staring up at the bloody blue.” 6. Humans. This, by the laws of skinchangers and wargs, is an abomination to do and the hardest. "to seize the body of another man was the worst abomination of all." Clearly Hodor protests and is scared the first several times we read of Bran warging him, but then he reluctantly accepts Bran. Thistle also has a very negative, screaming fit when Varamyr wargs her. What happens when we have a human who has been turned into a dog? And what happens if a human willingly lets him/herself be skinchanged into, offering no resistance? Is that also an abomination? Quote A few more questions I have are: How hard is it to warg a dragon, IF they can be warged? What is the level of consciousness the warger has in their own body while they are warging? We know a few skinchangers can hold a few animals at once, even while changed into another. Arya seems to be able to change into that cat and use its eyes, but Bran just lays there. Sorry for the repeat question, but I ask this again because this still seems a lose end and I am just looking for a wider concensus. And, do you really have to be a greenseer to see through a tree? Varymar has this experience as his true body is dying: "Varamyr was inside the owl, inside the hare, inside the trees." What then makes you raise to the greenseer level??? The supposed third tier level of visual gold. My take on these are as foillows: 1. On theory and with the info we have so far, I'd say yes, dragons can possibly be skinchanged into. Of course, further information may disprove this. 2. I think it will vary greatly, depending on who the skinchnger/warg is, what animal they're skinchanging/warging into, and a many other things. In other words, I don't think there's a hard-and-fast rule. 3. I think so. I think what happens to Varamyr is what happens when people die, they join the godhood. Leaf tells Bran that this is what happens when singers (CotF) die; but maybe it applies to all living beings. ADwD, Bran III: "It is given to a few to drink of that green fountain whilst still in mortal flesh, to hear the whisperings of the leaves and see as the trees see, as the gods see," said Jojen. "Most are not so blessed. The gods gave me only greendreams. My task was to get you here. My part in this is done." 4. Blood. Not as in blood sacrifice, but a person's lineage so to speak (genetic inheritance). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evita mgfs Posted March 29, 2016 Share Posted March 29, 2016 On 3/28/2016 at 11:04 PM, The Fattest Leech said: snip A few more questions I have are: How hard is it to warg a dragon, IF they can be warged? snip I am going to try to address an aspect of Bran’s growing powers that is probably unlikely, but then again, maybe not. If most of what Lord Brynden had been as a man has been absorbed by the trees, as Leaf tells Bran, then when Bran becomes one with the weirwood, he, by default, absorbs all that the trees hold of the essence that is/was Bloodraven. Does that make sense? If this is so, then perhaps, and if Targaryen blood is needed to warg/ride a dragon, Bran is a candidate because he shares the blood of his teacher, BR. While others look for Jon Snow to be the representative of fire and ice, and he likely is, Bran as well may be a composite of ice and fire through his connection and marriage with BR and all the other greenseers who have come before him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evita mgfs Posted March 29, 2016 Share Posted March 29, 2016 1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said: snip "It is given to a few to drink of that green fountain whilst still in mortal flesh, to hear the whisperings of the leaves and see as the trees see, as the gods see," said Jojen. "Most are not so blessed. The gods gave me only greendreams. My task was to get you here. My part in this is done." snip KBF, I love this quote you singled out. It also makes me very sad because Jojen seems to wish he had been as blessed as Bran with greensight, not just greendreams. Who is the more deserving of such a gift? How do these mysterious old gods of the north determine the recipients of such powers? Merely musing . . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissdbyfire Posted March 29, 2016 Share Posted March 29, 2016 4 minutes ago, evita mgfs said: KBF, I love this quote you singled out. It also makes me very sad because Jojen seems to wish he had been as blessed as Bran with greensight, not just greendreams. Who is the more deserving of such a gift? How do these mysterious old gods of the north determine the recipients of such powers? Merely musing . . . I think it goes back to the Pact. I will try to find the draft for that old thread, that's got a lot to do with that idea... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evita mgfs Posted March 29, 2016 Share Posted March 29, 2016 Just now, kissdbyfire said: I think it goes back to the Pact. I will try to find the draft for that old thread, that's got a lot to do with that idea... Yes, and thanks. Your theory about the pact is one that, in my mind, has become KBF canon. I truly buy into the theory about the pact and the distribution of powers. I would really like to reread your original essay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissdbyfire Posted March 29, 2016 Share Posted March 29, 2016 8 minutes ago, evita mgfs said: Yes, and thanks. Your theory about the pact is one that, in my mind, has become KBF canon. I truly buy into the theory about the pact and the distribution of powers. I would really like to reread your original essay. I kind of would too, but no chances of that happening. I'm sure if I have anything saved it will be just a draft! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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