Most Terrible Act Since the Conquest?

[StarkofWinterfell]

On 3/5/2016 at 7:41 PM, TimJames said:

RobOsevens, if I seem a little passionate about this, it is because I am still a bit sore.

Over the last three days, on a different thread (the prompt of which is "are there any evil Starks?"), I argued that Theon "The Hungry Wolf" Stark is guilty of Crimes Against Humanity. This is because, after repelling an invasion of ONE Andal Adventurer Host, Theon sailed to Andalos specifically to murder non-combatant Andal Civilians and bring their heads back to The North. Later, he invaded The Sisters and during the occupation allowed his solders to commit mass rape, cannibalism, wholesale murder, and more headhunting. 

My argument was that because "Murder, extermination, enslavement, deportation and other inhumane acts done against any civilian population" is evil, Theon Stark is evil for committing them. 

The three or four posters defending him argued that because Andal Combatants targeted him first he was within right to kill Andal Non-Combatants (collective punishment, transitive guilt, and punishing civilians for the actions of soldiers are ALL Nazi tactics), that it was necessary to make Andals afraid to invade The North (instilling fear is not a justified military motive, and in this case it didn't work as Vale-Andals started a centuries-long war against The North soon afterwards), that in his time such things were acceptable (a callous and hard-hearted sentiment), and that he was defending his homeland (something he could have done WITHOUT warcrimes).

I challenged these four to put themselves in the shoes of the civilians Theon Stark killed, and NONE of them did so or even acknowledged them. 

So yeah; crimes against humanity were just as objectively evil in the past as they are now. Genghis Khan, Attila the Hun, Boudicca, and all their ilk deserve to be hanged just as much as the Nazi High-Command did. 

Oh please. You're wanted back in that thread that you disappeared from once your arguments were refuted.

[direpupy]

On ‎9‎-‎3‎-‎2016 at 7:40 AM, TimJames said:

 

There seems to be a misconception that Moral Universialism = "Judging non-modern people by modern standards". That is simply not the case.

Moral Universialism means "judging everyone by the same moral and ethical standards, regardless of era or culture". It is only about consistency, it is NOT about comparing things to the present (at least, not necessarily). If someone looked at the moral standards of Ancient Rome, decided "They had it figured out!", and judged everyone based on those morals then he would be a Moral Universialist as well.

I for one do not judge everyone simply by modern standards, because the modern world has some moral problems of its own. The ethical standard I use is mostly based on the theories and works of John Locke.

For example, I support Capitol Punishment as applied to War Criminals and those who commit Crimes Against Humanity (such as people who kill civilians on purpose, people who kill children, people who permit their soldiers to rape, etc.), and because I am a Moral Universialist I consider someone who does these things a War Criminal (and therefore deserving of execution) regardless of the culture or era they grew up in. I consider Joseph Stalin and Genghis Khan as being equally evil.

I don't want to live in a world where fathers can Honor-Kill their daughters and get away with it, nor do I wan't to live in a world where "making enemies afraid to hurt us" is considered a justifiable reason for using a greatsword to cut babies in half. That's why I follow Moral Universialism: because if we excuse atrocities of the past, then we treat Human Rights as luxuries. 

Here are some definitions to clear up confusion.

Moral Universialism = The same standard should be applied to everyone, regardless of culture, era, or any other distinguishing factor.

Moral Realism = There are moral facts that are objectively true, regardless of whether or not humans agree with or know of them.

Moral Absloutism = There is an absolute standard against which moral questions can be judged. 

And al of these are concepts that where concieved by humans, humans are flawed so they would therfore have weafed there own feelings and opinions into it thats wat inevitably happens , there is no such thing as un-biasednes and as such this is still all a matter of personel opinion and nothing more.

So i don't think that you wanting to Judge al people regardless of when and where they lived by what are undoubtitly your personel morals and standards, ore at least the ones that you think are the right morals and standards should not mean that everyone else should.

And in my personel opinion Human Rights are luxuries of the modern age, i am glad we have them don't get me wrong, but they are the product of the modern age there can be no doubt of that.

[Neds Secret]

On 4 March 2016 at 5:03 PM, Nictarion said:

I'm sure it's something Tywin Lannister did. Take your pick:

-Drowning the Reynes in the mines

-Unleashing Gregor Clegane on Elia and her children 

-Ordering the gang rape of his daughter in law

Just to name a few. 

Yep, I'm with you pretty much anytime Tywin went to war he committed war crime atrocities against the populace!

[The Wolves]

On March 4, 2016 at 0:03 AM, Nictarion said:

I'm sure it's something Tywin Lannister did. Take your pick:

-Drowning the Reynes in the mines

-Unleashing Gregor Clegane on Elia and her children 

-Ordering the gang rape of his daughter in law

Just to name a few. 

This!!!

[John Doe]

23 hours ago, dariopatke said:

People not bending knee to One True King Stannis Baratheon.

This of course.

[John Doe]

15 hours ago, StarkofWinterfell said:

Oh please. You're wanted back in that thread that you disappeared from once your arguments were refuted.

He avoided the outcome of an discussion here as well. 

[Rob Storm]

On March 8, 2016 at 3:28 AM, King Endymion Targaryen said:

The worst was the Dance of Dragons.Especially:

1. The deaths of Helaena's children.
2. Aegon III seeing his mother eaten by a dragon.
3. So many people who died when lords played the game of thrones.

Let me preface this by saying that as the OP, I think I agree with you.

 

Though, if I look at "the Dance of Dragons" as one atrocity, I begin to look at "the War of 5 Kings" as one atrocity.  When you add up each it's pretty balanced in atrociousness.  So you can't compare The Red Wedding to The Dance of Dragons. 

Like I said, I think I agree with you that "the Dance of Dragons" was overall the most atrocious and regrettable widespread war/continental conflict.  But it is not the most despicable single act.  Though one act from it may be.  

[Endymion I Targaryen]

4 hours ago, Rob Storm said:

Let me preface this by saying that as the OP, I think I agree with you.

 

Though, if I look at "the Dance of Dragons" as one atrocity, I begin to look at "the War of 5 Kings" as one atrocity.  When you add up each it's pretty balanced in atrociousness.  So you can't compare The Red Wedding to The Dance of Dragons. 

Like I said, I think I agree with you that "the Dance of Dragons" was overall the most atrocious and regrettable widespread war/continental conflict.  But it is not the most despicable single act.  Though one act from it may be.  

The Dance was worst because there were dragons and it was the war between a brother and a sister. If I narrow it down to a single act which was the worst,I would choose Aegon III watching his mother being eaten by a dragon.Aegon II had the right to get revenge on his foe but not torture a child.

[Kandrax]

Sack of Tumbleton (Ulf and Hugh were Gregor and Lorch of their time), Raid on Saltpans, Theon's torture, rape of Jeyne and what Rorge did to unnamed orphan (does any child deserve such fate).

[LindsayLohan]

Arya cockblocking Gendry in the Riverlands.

[The Sunland Lord]

Craster's lifestyle.