If Robb didn't have to marry a Frey, who do you think he'd have married?

[Boarsbane]

1 hour ago, Zaydan said:

If there's no war, and Ned stays as The Hand, then Robb would be married to the daughter of another prominent lord, not into one of the vassals'. I know that Ned would probably be repulsed by the idea of such political marriage, but Robert would've insisted upon it, and Catelyn would probably drill the idea even further, just like she did when Robert offered The Hand's position.

So probably Margaery. Both are of the same age. The Tyrells are much wealthier, but the Starks are much more respected. Plus Ned is The Hand. And Mace holds no position in King's Landing and iirc his family is nowhere near the power cycle (well, except Loras). Really, this would be the best option for Mace because Joffrey is already bethroted to Sansa and Robb is of the highest stature that he could hope for his one and only daughter.

The Tyrells have no interest in the North or the Starks and they seem to have been plotting with Renly to replace Cersei with Margaery, which becomes impossible if she is married to Robb Stark. If they decide Robert isn't happening then I'd think Renly becomes the next choice. 

[Lion of the West]

I could see Robb marryin Alys Karstark, I can see him marrying one of Manderly's daughters and there are probably more that he can pick from. In short I see him picking a bride from the North or possible from the Vale or Riverlands given Eddard's supposed connections there.

[Zaydan]

1 hour ago, Dukhasinov said:

How is anyone suggesting that Robb marry into the Tyrells or Aryns? Any Great House that weds their daughter to Robb Stark joins him in his rebellion against the Iron Throne, and neither Highgarden nor the Eirie were interested in doing that. It would have been prudent to include an offer to marry Asha with his proposal to Balon Greyjoy. But, of course, that wouldn`t have worked out. Dacey Mormont or  Wylla Manderly 

If there was no war.

[MinotaurWarrior]

6 hours ago, Dukhasinov said:

How is anyone suggesting that Robb marry into the Tyrells or Aryns? Any Great House that weds their daughter to Robb Stark joins him in his rebellion against the Iron Throne, and neither Highgarden nor the Eirie were interested in doing that. It would have been prudent to include an offer to marry Asha with his proposal to Balon Greyjoy. But, of course, that wouldn`t have worked out. Dacey Mormont or  Wylla Manderly 

House Arryn has no marriagable females, so we're good there. But house Tyrell was already rebelling when cat was looking to stud her son, and a marriage between Robb and Megga might just have been the best way to prevent conflict between Highgarden and winterfel. Remember, the Tyrells had to be convinced by Littlefinger to consent to an alliance with the Lannisters. Renly didn't want war with Robb. A marriage is a good excuse to avoid killing, and wedding gifts a good way to ease back into one king paying taxes to another. Of course though, Rob would have messed it up by marrying the westerling girl. 

[estermonty python]

Oh come on, this one is easy!

 

In a universe where the Freys are leal bannermen but the war still happens, the best political move is for Robb to marry Shireen as the centerpiece of a treaty with Stannis.  The North and Riverlands agree to drop their bid for independence and support Stannis's claim, and in return the Lord of Winterfell marries the last Baratheon heir.  Then the combined strengths of the North, Riverlands, and Stormlands fight to put Shireen on the Iron Throne, with the expectation that she will bear Robb an heir, and that heir will be a Stark on the Iron Throne (who is also a quarter Tully).    

The only potential hangup to this plan would be Stannis pardoning the "rebels," but Davos hopefully could have talked sense into him on that front.

[Rise]

Spoiler

 

Wylla Manderly, one of the Umber girls or Lyanna Mormont, if with southron ambitious Desmera Redwyne.

[devilish]

It depends. Is it Prior or during the war?

 

If prior the war, then I can see Robert taking the initiative once more and arrange a marriage between Robb and Mycella. Since his son and heir had married a Stark girl then its only fair for the Stark's heir to marry a Baratheon. It wouldn't make sense from a diplomatic point of view (Mycella would have been better off marrying Willas) but we all know Robert (Tit for Tat, Eddard's bro, Willas is a cripple and the Tyrells are Targ lovers bla bla bla).

During the war, well Robb had no choice but to marry a Frey. Old Walder wouldn't have let him pass without having his prize. If the old man relented than I am pretty sure that Cat would have scouted the entire kingdom to get a suitor for her beloved boy (she's a Tully after all). It would have been difficult though, considering that the boy wanted to be King of the North and only of the North. If Robb won the war, than his father in law would have risked having his lands ravaged by those who wanted Robb to march in more 'inconvenient' lands in a bid to defend his father's in law rights.

From a diplomatic point of view Robb's best option would have been Margaery. The North and the Reach would have wiped the Lannisters in no time. Willas could be offered the Stark-Tully support for the Southern crown (ie the remaining 5 kingdoms) through invasion by conquest in exchange of the latter supporting the King of the North madness. However that would require plenty of diplomacy, something the North isn’t very good at. Another viable option would be to marry a powerful foreign bannermen with influence in the region they originate from in a bid of convincing that region to join Robb’s cause or at least limit the Lord Paramount’s military strength. Ysilla Royce or Talia Tarly would be a great match for Robb

Having said that, Robb isn’t very good in diplomacy so I can see him marry some random girl whose fit.

 

 

[devilish]

42 minutes ago, estermonty python said:

Oh come on, this one is easy!

 

In a universe where the Freys are leal bannermen but the war still happens, the best political move is for Robb to marry Shireen as the centerpiece of a treaty with Stannis.  The North and Riverlands agree to drop their bid for independence and support Stannis's claim, and in return the Lord of Winterfell marries the last Baratheon heir.  Then the combined strengths of the North, Riverlands, and Stormlands fight to put Shireen on the Iron Throne, with the expectation that she will bear Robb an heir, and that heir will be a Stark on the Iron Throne (who is also a quarter Tully).    

The only potential hangup to this plan would be Stannis pardoning the "rebels," but Davos hopefully could have talked sense into him on that front.

No Lord Paramount would marry Shireen. She's got greyscale. 

[thelittledragonthatcould]

2 hours ago, estermonty python said:

Oh come on, this one is easy!

 

In a universe where the Freys are leal bannermen but the war still happens, the best political move is for Robb to marry Shireen as the centerpiece of a treaty with Stannis.  The North and Riverlands agree to drop their bid for independence and support Stannis's claim, and in return the Lord of Winterfell marries the last Baratheon heir.  Then the combined strengths of the North, Riverlands, and Stormlands fight to put Shireen on the Iron Throne, with the expectation that she will bear Robb an heir, and that heir will be a Stark on the Iron Throne (who is also a quarter Tully).    

Stannis would never agree to that. He'd expect the Baratheon name to be carried on (unless you simply mean that Baratheon King will simply have Stark blood). 

1 hour ago, devilish said:

No Lord Paramount would marry Shireen. She's got greyscale. 

In different circumstances I think some would and had Robb been single and if suggested he would have welcomed the alliance but on his terms, sadly Stannis would have wanted his terms met and the two would never have come to amicable agreement.

 

The trouble is that without the Frey marriage Robb actually never becomes King of the Riverlands either. That Frey marriage actually brings more to Robb's cause than a Shireen marriage would have.

[Chris Mormont]

 If there was no war or need for a pact with the Freys, Wynafryd Manderly would have been a good match one whom Cat would have approved of, not too wild and Northern.

[aryagonnakill#2]

If nothing else changes but Robb not having to marry a Frey in exchange for crossing the bridge, than Catlyn would have rushed to the Tyrells to propose the match when Renly died. That could have gone very poorly considering Loras murdered a few people when he found it, or if she went to Margery or Randyl Tarly it could have worked out.  If she did not secure that match then it seems likely Robb still marries Jeyne.

[Lee-Sensei]

Just now, Good Guy Garlan said:

Not Yohn Royce. He's got several ports, and I'm guessing a few ships. Manderly would provide the rest. 

Manderly has one Port and few ships as far as we know, Manderly has nothing during the war, the logistics behind moving a sigificant force to the otherside of the continent are nightmarish and frought with danger and even if they managed, Lysa might decide to lock them out of the Vale and seize their lands, titles and wealth for Yohns treason.

[estermonty python]

2 hours ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

Stannis would never agree to that. He'd expect the Baratheon name to be carried on (unless you simply mean that Baratheon King will simply have Stark blood). 

In different circumstances I think some would and had Robb been single and if suggested he would have welcomed the alliance but on his terms, sadly Stannis would have wanted his terms met and the two would never have come to amicable agreement.

 

The trouble is that without the Frey marriage Robb actually never becomes King of the Riverlands either. That Frey marriage actually brings more to Robb's cause than a Shireen marriage would have.

By ADWD, Stannis is in the North, and he needs the North, and he never gets as far as he does in the lead up to the Battle for Winterfell without the North.  I highly doubt that he'd have given up any chance of winning his war simply because his pride wouldn't allow him to marry his daughter to someone of equal or greater status.  If he's committed enough to his cause to burn his daughter (as some speculate he is), surely he'd have been committed enough to marry her to the Warden of the North.  It all depends on the time frame we are talking about.

 I don't see where you get the notion that the Frey marriage makes Robb King of the Riverlands.  Marrying a Frey didn't impact that either way; the Riverlands joined the Kingdom because Robb was half Tully.  I'd actually argue the Riverlands a generation in the future would be pretty resentful of being subservient to someone with Frey blood.  

If you were just trying to say that, politically, it would be much better for Robb to marry the daughter of a River lord rather than a Northern Lord to cement his rule over the Riverlands, then I agree with that sentiment wholeheartedly, and I'd suggest that the ideal match for Robb in THAT scenario is Bethany Blackwood.  It's really the perfect match, in that it maintains the Stark connection to the first men and the old gods (upping those connections to 75%, rather than dilluting to 25%), and he wouldn't be the first Lord of Winterfell to wed a Blackwood.     

[Lee-Sensei]

Just now, devilish said:

It depends. Is it Prior or during the war

If prior the war, then I can see Robert taking the initiative once more and arrange a marriage between Robb and Mycella. Since his son and heir had married a Stark girl then its only fair for the Stark's heir to marry a Baratheon. It wouldn't make sense from a diplomatic point of view (Mycella would have been better off marrying Willas) but we all know Robert (Tit for Tat, Eddard's bro, Willas is a cripple and the Tyrells are Targ lovers bla bla bla).

During the war, well Robb had no choice but to marry a Frey. Old Walder wouldn't have let him pass without having his prize. If the old man relented than I am pretty sure that Cat would have scouted the entire kingdom to get a suitor for her beloved boy (she's a Tully after all). It would have been difficult though, considering that the boy wanted to be King of the North and only of the North. If Robb won the war, than his father in law would have risked having his lands ravaged by those who wanted Robb to march in more 'inconvenient' lands in a bid to defend his father's in law rights.

From a diplomatic point of view Robb's best option would have been Margaery. The North and the Reach would have wiped the Lannisters in no time. Willas could be offered the Stark-Tully support for the Southern crown (ie the remaining 5 kingdoms) through invasion by conquest in exchange of the latter supporting the King of the North madness. However that would require plenty of diplomacy, something the North isn’t very good at. Another viable option would be to marry a powerful foreign bannermen with influence in the region they originate from in a bid of convincing that region to join Robb’s cause or at least limit the Lord Paramount’s military strength. Ysilla Royce or Talia Tarly would be a great match for Robb

Having said that, Robb isn’t very good in diplomacy so I can see him marry some random girl whose fit.

Dorne, the Vale and the Iron Islands wouldn't recognze King Wilas and Mace wasn't interested in a fractured Kingdom.

[Lee-Sensei]

Just now, estermonty python said:

By ADWD, Stannis is in the North, and he needs the North, and he never gets as far as he does in the lead up to the Battle for Winterfell without the North.  I highly doubt that he'd have given up any chance of winning his war simply because his pride wouldn't allow him to marry his daughter to someone of equal or greater status.  If he's committed enough to his cause to burn his daughter (as some speculate he is), surely he'd have been committed enough to marry her to the Warden of the North.  It all depends on the time frame we are talking about.

 I don't see where you get the notion that the Frey marriage makes Robb King of the Riverlands.  Marrying a Frey didn't impact that either way; the Riverlands joined the Kingdom because Robb was half Tully.  I'd actually argue the Riverlands a generation in the future would be pretty resentful of being subservient to someone with Frey blood.  

If you were just trying to say that, politically, it would be much better for Robb to marry the daughter of a River lord rather than a Northern Lord to cement his rule over the Riverlands, then I agree with that sentiment wholeheartedly, and I'd suggest that the ideal match for Robb in THAT scenario is Bethany Blackwood.  It's really the perfect match, in that it maintains the Stark connection to the first men and the old gods (upping those connections to 75%, rather than dilluting to 25%), and he wouldn't be the first Lord of Winterfell to wed a Blackwood.     

1) Stannis would never accept the Stark name replacing the Baratheon name. Never. And Robb wouldn't be considered the equal to Shireen, because Shireen is royalty and Robb is a rebel in Stannis' eyes.

2) Without the Freys, Robb dies outside the Twins.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

48 minutes ago, estermonty python said:

By ADWD, Stannis is in the North, and he needs the North, and he never gets as far as he does in the lead up to the Battle for Winterfell without the North.  I highly doubt that he'd have given up any chance of winning his war simply because his pride wouldn't allow him to marry his daughter to someone of equal or greater status.  If he's committed enough to his cause to burn his daughter (as some speculate he is), surely he'd have been committed enough to marry her to the Warden of the North.  It all depends on the time frame we are talking about.

I don't see where I disagreed with that, but any heir of Shireen's would have the last name Baratheon not Stark. Stannis is not about to give the realm to them anymore than he was willing to marry Shireen off to Tommen.

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 I don't see where you get the notion that the Frey marriage makes Robb King of the Riverlands.

It did. Without the Twins access he would never have been able to get to Riverrun in time to free the Riverland army. They would have fallen, in which case new hostages and oaths of fealty to the Crown would be issued and a grateful Riverlands would never have made him King.

In fact it is possible without Robb's great victories at the Camps and the Whispering Wood his own bannermen might not have been so quick to make him King of the North.

Simple cause and effect. He didn't only gain 4k Freys with that marriage pact but, indirectly, the whole of the Riverlands.

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 Marrying a Frey didn't impact that either way; the Riverlands joined the Kingdom because Robb was half Tully.

No they joined because Robb saved Riverrun and its Lords from being defeated by Jaime Lannister. A victory that would not have happened without the Freys and the access from their bridge.

It also helped that the Freys most powerful Lords in the Riverlands, with the largest army, would have been in favor of their future in-law becoming King.

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I'd actually argue the Riverlands a generation in the future would be pretty resentful of being subservient to someone with Frey blood.  

I'd say they'd be just as resentful as an Old God worshipping Northman ruling them.

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If you were just trying to say that, politically, it would be much better for Robb to marry the daughter of a River lord rather than a Northern Lord to cement his rule over the Riverlands, then I agree with that sentiment wholeheartedly, and I'd suggest that the ideal match for Robb in THAT scenario is Bethany Blackwood.

This seems pretty dumb, sorry. The Blackwoods were pretty much beaten at that point. If Robb married Bethany then he gets nothing. He was heavily dependent on the Freys.

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 It's really the perfect match, in that it maintains the Stark connection to the first men and the old gods (upping those connections to 75%, rather than dilluting to 25%), and he wouldn't be the first Lord of Winterfell to wed a Blackwood.     

Culturally it may have been better, though Robb marrying another Old God worshipper may well alienate the Andal worshipping Riverlords. Just as if Robb renounced the Old Gods and married a Manderly many of the Northern Lords would take offence.

 

Not that it matters, Robb was dependent on the Freys. Without them his war ends on either on the Green Fork or in retreat to Moat Cailin.

[Lee-Sensei]

I'd bet most major Riverlords have some Frey blood.

[devilish]

15 hours ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

Stannis would never agree to that. He'd expect the Baratheon name to be carried on (unless you simply mean that Baratheon King will simply have Stark blood). 

In different circumstances I think some would and had Robb been single and if suggested he would have welcomed the alliance but on his terms, sadly Stannis would have wanted his terms met and the two would never have come to amicable agreement.

 

The trouble is that without the Frey marriage Robb actually never becomes King of the Riverlands either. That Frey marriage actually brings more to Robb's cause than a Shireen marriage would have.

We're talking about a 'middle ages' setup were medical knowledge was close to nil and superstition was everything. Shireen was taunted with a disease that was contagious. Ok it may be dormant but god knows if it could become active again or if she could have had children because of it. There's no way Robb would marry her

[Kytheros]

Assuming War of the Five Kings, and the Freys aren't asshats or Edmure gets betrothed to a Frey instead of Robb (or Robb tosses one of his brothers on a Frey, I suppose) at that early point, and the North and the Riverlands have already declared Robb their King.

Robb most likely gets betrothed by Cat to Shireen when Cat went to negotiate with Stannis and Renly. Stannis would have accepted that deal - it brings the North and the Riverlands out of rebellion against his claim to the Iron Throne and the Seven Kingdoms cleanly and with no loss of face for either side, while simultaneously getting Shireen about as good a husband as it is possible to get for her. Very similar principle to that which ultimately brought Dorne into the Seven Kingdoms.

Stannis with the North and Riverlands is enough to counter the Renly/Tyrell alliance, and it's possible, if not probable, that with that alliance with Robb in hand, Stannis might be talked into a truce to take out the Lannisters before taking on Renly/Tyrell, and if not and Renly still gets shadow-babied, it's a lot less likely that the Tyrells ally with the Lannisters against Stannis, the North and the Riverlands. Even if the Tyrells do go for the Lannisters, Stannis isn't going for Kings Landing solo - he might very well circle around Kings Landing to crush the Lannister field armies in conjunction with Robb's forces, and then go for Kings Landing. In this scenario, even with the Ironborn attacking the North, Roose doesn't turn against and betray Robb.

 

If no WotFK, and Ned is Hand for Robert or never went South in the first place, Robb likely marries a daughter from a Northern House, or a Riverlander or Vale house. Probably a predominantly First Men-descended House if it's a Riverlander or Vale House.

 

If Ned goes south to be Hand, and successfully gets Sansa and Arya out and back North before he gets screwed by Littlefinger ... presumably Ned declares Stannis as Robert's rightful heir even though it costs him, Shireen might be betrothed to Robb to cement the Stannis/Stark alliance.
In a scenario where Ned is Hand and successfully exposes Cersei's infidelity and is then Hand for Robert or Stannis, Robb might get betrothed to Shireen.
It's unlikely that in peacetime the Tyrells would offer Margaery for Robb. It's possible that a Margaery/Robb match might be arranged to stabilize things after Cersei's infidelities, unless the Tyrells offered Margaery to Robert, which is also quite possible.

I don't think there's really any scenario where Robb gets betrothed to anybody from Dorne - it'd take just too many divergences and leaps to get there, especially with Doran wanting a Targaryen restoration and not getting actively involved in things.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

7 hours ago, devilish said:

We're talking about a 'middle ages' setup were medical knowledge was close to nil and superstition was everything. Shireen was taunted with a disease that was contagious. Ok it may be dormant but god knows if it could become active again or if she could have had children because of it. There's no way Robb would marry her

We are talking about Robb desperate to free his father. He would have married anyone presented to him who he thought could have achieved that.