How big is the smallest "City"?

[Jack Sceltun]

Does GRRM in canon or otherwise ever state the population requirements (or stipulations) which define a city in a the universe of ASOIAF? Thanks!

[thelittledragonthatcould]

We are hoping to differentiate between towns, cities, and castles on the new maps, which has got me thinking about such things. There are five cities in Westeros: King's Landing, Oldtown, Lannisport, Gulltown, and White Harbor. But the first two are much bigger than Lannisport, which is in turn much bigger than the last two.

This is the information he gives us. We have been told by Tyrion that the population of Kings Landing is around half a million

"Then take a good sniff, my lord. Fill up your nose. Half a million people stink more than three hundred, you'll find. Do you smell the gold cloaks?"

So I'd guess Kings Landing  450-500k, Oldtown 400-450k, Lannisport 200-250k, Gulltown 100-125k, White Harbor 90-115k

 

[redtree]

No, but for example he said that KL is more like medieval london but not rome-sized city. The smallest city in Westeros is White Harbor, there's no number but someone said that WH compared to KL is like comparing Tyrion to Gregor Clegane. So if KL's population is 500K, WH is possibly around 50-75K

[Lord Vance II]

7 minutes ago, redtree said:

No, but for example he said that KL is more like medieval london but not rome-sized city. The smallest city in Westeros is White Harbor, there's no number but someone said that WH compared to KL is like comparing Tyrion to Gregor Clegane. So if KL's population is 500K, WH is possibly around 50-75K

White Harbor at 50,000 to 75,000 sounds right to me. I've always thought the population of the Westerosi cities is usually inflated due to expectation. I think of Gulltown being not much bigger than White Harbor, maybe 80,000 to 90,000 people, if not less. 

[The Holy Goat]

I'd say that thelittledragonthatcould is correct in his estimations. Or as correct as can be.

[SeanF]

The largest cities of Westeros are far bigger than the cities of Western Europe, in the middle ages (although not bigger than some contemporary Middle Eastern cities, and smaller than some contemporary Chinese cities).

Paris in 1340 probably had about 100,000 people, London about 50,000.  At the other end of the scale, a city like Exeter had about 3,000.  The qualification for a city in Western Europe was to have a Cathedral.  I don't know what the qualification is in Westeros.  There are probably quite a few places that have populations of 5-50,000, which rank as towns.

The cities of Essos seem to be far bigger, much close to those of China.

. 

[The Holy Goat]

18 hours ago, SeanF said:

The largest cities of Westeros are far bigger than the cities of Western Europe, in the middle ages (although not bigger than some contemporary Middle Eastern cities, and smaller than some contemporary Chinese cities).

Paris in 1340 probably had about 100,000 people, London about 50,000.  At the other end of the scale, a city like Exeter had about 3,000.  The qualification for a city in Western Europe was to have a Cathedral.  I don't know what the qualification is in Westeros.  There are probably quite a few places that have populations of 5-50,000, which rank as towns.

The cities of Essos seem to be far bigger, much close to those of China.

. 

I'd reckon that towns like Barrowton, Duskendale, Maidenpool, Stoney Sept, the Weeping Town, the PLanky Town and the Shadow City beneath Sunspear has populations between 10,000 and 50,000.

We also know that Pebbleton of House Merlyn has a population of 7,000, but Lordsport of House Botley has a sligthly larger population (largest settlement in the Iron Islands). Lord Hewett's Town is apparently twice the size of Lordsport. The winter town outside Winterfell apparently grows to become almost as big as Barrowton during winter.

Some certainly are. Volantis and Braavos seem like they could be twice the size of King's Landing, and Qarth as well. Pentos, Norvos, Qohor, Volon Therys and other settlements in the Free Cities seem like they could be larger or just as large. Lorath is probably fairly "small" however, and Meereen, Yunkai and Astapor are clearly not as large as King's Landing or Oldtown, particularily not Yunkai or Astapor.

 

[Werthead]

13 hours ago, The Holy Goat said:

Some certainly are. Volantis and Braavos seem like they could be twice the size of King's Landing, and Qarth as well. Pentos, Norvos, Qohor, Volon Therys and other settlements in the Free Cities seem like they could be larger or just as large. Lorath is probably fairly "small" however, and Meereen, Yunkai and Astapor are clearly not as large as King's Landing or Oldtown, particularily not Yunkai or Astapor.

Odd. I get the distinct impression that Meereen is massive, notably bigger than KL but not quite as big as Volantis or Qarth.

In terms of physical size, Asshai is apparently the biggest city in the known world, but it's population is actually very small.

[The Three Whores]

After years of arguing among readers, the general rule of thumb for Westerosi cities is a minimum of 50,000 people. Less than that and it is still considered a town.

1 hour ago, Werthead said:

Odd. I get the distinct impression that Meereen is massive, notably bigger than KL but not quite as big as Volantis or Qarth.

In terms of physical size, Asshai is apparently the biggest city in the known world, but it's population is actually very small.

I agree. In terms of size, I always seen the top five cities (by size, not population) in the known world to be Asshai, then Volantis, then Meereen and Quarth, and finally Bravos.

[The Holy Goat]

1 hour ago, Werthead said:

Odd. I get the distinct impression that Meereen is massive, notably bigger than KL but not quite as big as Volantis or Qarth.

In terms of physical size, Asshai is apparently the biggest city in the known world, but it's population is actually very small.

Meereen is never described as being particularily big. Astapor was noted by Dany to be not nearly as populous as it once was and not near as crowded as the likes of Qarth, Pentos or even Lys. Yunkai is said to be even smaller than Astapor, IIRC. After Dany orders the slaves of Yunkai freed she recieves a boost of slightly less than 60,000 followers, all freedmen. That's likely the majority of the Yunkai'i population. Meereen is said to be as populous as the two combined. Personally I'd guess Yunkai and Astapor might be at 100,000 and 150,000 people, respectively. Meereen might be at 250,000. So, it's not as large as some other cities. The Slaver Cities are essentially backwaters.

New Ghis is apparently the least backwater-y. It's also the smallest.

[aryagonnakill#2]

Anyone ever notice how Gulltown was originally a town?  It makes me uneasy to call WH the smallest city when Gulltown got the upgrade after Storm.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

10 minutes ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

Anyone ever notice how Gulltown was originally a town?  It makes me uneasy to call WH the smallest city when Gulltown got the upgrade after Storm.

We are told that it is the smallest city (though I doubt there is much difference between WH and Gulltown)

White Harbor, the North's sole true city, is the smallest city in the Seven Kingdoms.

[Nyrhex]

21 hours ago, The Holy Goat said:

I'd reckon that towns like Barrowton, Duskendale, Maidenpool, Stoney Sept, the Weeping Town, the PLanky Town and the Shadow City beneath Sunspear has populations between 10,000 and 50,000.

We also know that Pebbleton of House Merlyn has a population of 7,000, but Lordsport of House Botley has a sligthly larger population (largest settlement in the Iron Islands). Lord Hewett's Town is apparently twice the size of Lordsport. The winter town outside Winterfell apparently grows to become almost as big as Barrowton during winter.

Pebbleton is mentioned as being home to several thousand people, not seven thousand.

Barrowton is linked to Winter Town, which at ~9,700 troops was full almost to bursting (Robb's host at Winterfell without the Karstarks), without any ability to hold so many people (with summer rations, yes? Not winter conditions) for long. So Barrowton being ~10,000 seems about right.

5 hours ago, The Holy Goat said:

New Ghis is apparently the least backwater-y. It's also the smallest.

New Ghis is said to already have 6 legions present, and the plan was for 10 to be commited to the war. That's 60,000 men the city can send to war. Free men who serve for 3 years, making this a small portion of the manpower of New Ghis. Even with a core of full time soldiers and officers that rely on a large pool of men in thier prime (say ages 18-21), unless that figure counts older reservists that would significantly increase the number of men available, we are still talking about a city state of close to a million here (though no clue how many live within the walls of the city).

[direpupy]

33 minutes ago, Nyrhex said:

Pebbleton is mentioned as being home to several thousand people, not seven thousand.

New Ghis is said to already have 6 legions present, and the plan was for 10 to be commited to the war. That's 60,000 men the city can send to war. Free men who serve for 3 years, making this a small portion of the manpower of New Ghis. Even with a core of full time soldiers and officers that rely on a large pool of men in thier prime (say ages 18-21), unless that figure counts older reservists that would significantly increase the number of men available, we are still talking about a city state of close to a million here (though no clue how many live within the walls of the city).

 

22 hours ago, The Holy Goat said:

We also know that Pebbleton of House Merlyn has a population of 7,000, but Lordsport of House Botley has a sligthly larger population (largest settlement in the Iron Islands). Lord Hewett's Town is apparently twice the size of Lordsport.

the definition of several is more than 2 (i actually looked that up in the dictionary) so Pebbleton is a minimum of 3000 lordsport being slightly bigger would put them at maybe 3500, which in turn would put Lord Hewett's Town at 7000.

As to New Ghis, 60,000 with a mobilisation of 1.5% of the population would be 4 million people. The 1.5% is the number of people you can mobilise without destabilising your society, at least according to the study's that i have seen on the subject. However during certain periods (between harvests) you can temporarily increase that number. So maybe that is why only 6 of the 10 promised legions are present at the moment, because the rest is still bringing in the harvest. If that is the case then the population would be 2.4 million people.

The number of people living inside the walls of New Ghis is hard to speculate on, you need about 9 people working the fields to let 1 person do something else but those who work the field just outside the city would also live in the city, and not everyone who does something else would live in the city (think village blacksmith) So most likely between 10% and 20% of the population would live inside the city walls, but that is a guess from my part.

[Cayrouse]

6 hours ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

Anyone ever notice how Gulltown was originally a town?  It makes me uneasy to call WH the smallest city when Gulltown got the upgrade after Storm.

 I imagine most cities used to be towns- Oldtown included. King's Landing used to only be the spot in which the Targs got off their ships and built a fort. Didn't stop the area for growing massively over the course of 300 years. In fact, the idea that Gulltown has been an walled settlement since before the coming of the ANDALS makes it very believable that it should be a city by now.

[John Doe]

It should be more like this: 

 

KL: 300-400k

Oldtown: considerably smaller, so maybe 100-over 200k

Lannisport: at least 80k- 100ish k

Gulltown: 30-50k

WH: 15-30k

[direpupy]

9 minutes ago, John Doe said:

It should be more like this: 

 

KL: 300-400k

Oldtown: considerably smaller, so maybe 100-over 200k

Lannisport: at least 80k- 100ish k

Gulltown: 30-50k

WH: 15-30k

Oldtown is said to be almost as big as kings landing, so this cant be right.

[redtree]

6 minutes ago, John Doe said:

It should be more like this: 

 

KL: 300-400k

Oldtown: considerably smaller, so maybe 100-over 200k

Lannisport: at least 80k- 100ish k

Gulltown: 30-50k

WH: 15-30k

I'm more on board with this number, London itself just hit 500k at 18th century so it seems more reasonable for KL which is set at 14th century population to be at max 300k (probably even at 200k)

Oldtown: 225-250k
Lannisport: 150-175k
Gulltown: 40-75K
WH: 35-50K

 

[The Holy Goat]

1 hour ago, Nyrhex said:

Pebbleton is mentioned as being home to several thousand people, not seven thousand.

Barrowton is linked to Winter Town, which at ~9,700 troops was full almost to bursting (Robb's host at Winterfell without the Karstarks), without any ability to hold so many people (with summer rations, yes? Not winter conditions) for long. So Barrowton being ~10,000 seems about right.

New Ghis is said to already have 6 legions present, and the plan was for 10 to be commited to the war. That's 60,000 men the city can send to war. Free men who serve for 3 years, making this a small portion of the manpower of New Ghis. Even with a core of full time soldiers and officers that rely on a large pool of men in thier prime (say ages 18-21), unless that figure counts older reservists that would significantly increase the number of men available, we are still talking about a city state of close to a million here (though no clue how many live within the walls of the city).

True. I remembered that wrong.

There are already people living in the winter town outside Winterfell though, and we don't know how many they are.

The World of Ice and Fire still considers New Ghis the most vital yet also the smallest of the Ghiscari cities. And the number of soldiers they can send is not solely reliant on the city of New Ghis, but on the land it controls. You don't actually think the city recruits only from the capital do you? Just like the Great Houses of Westeros they likely try to draw their forces from the surrounding lands as well. SO it's fully possible that the lands sworn to New Ghis has a population in the millions, but that that city itself isn't notably large.

1 hour ago, direpupy said:

 

the definition of several is more than 2 (i actually looked that up in the dictionary) so Pebbleton is a minimum of 3000 lordsport being slightly bigger would put them at maybe 3500, which in turn would put Lord Hewett's Town at 7000.

As to New Ghis, 60,000 with a mobilisation of 1.5% of the population would be 4 million people. The 1.5% is the number of people you can mobilise without destabilising your society, at least according to the study's that i have seen on the subject. However during certain periods (between harvests) you can temporarily increase that number. So maybe that is why only 6 of the 10 promised legions are present at the moment, because the rest is still bringing in the harvest. If that is the case then the population would be 2.4 million people.

The number of people living inside the walls of New Ghis is hard to speculate on, you need about 9 people working the fields to let 1 person do something else but those who work the field just outside the city would also live in the city, and not everyone who does something else would live in the city (think village blacksmith) So most likely between 10% and 20% of the population would live inside the city walls, but that is a guess from my part.

True. I remembered it wrong and confused several for seven. Considering Lordsport is the biggest settlement in the Iron islands I'd put it above 5,000 people though, with Lord Hewett's Town being above 10,000.

And it's fully possible the lands beholden to New Ghis has the kind of population. Doesn't change the fact that the city itself is smaller than any of the other Ghiscari cities, as stated in TWOIAF.

18 minutes ago, redtree said:

I'm more on board with this number, London itself just hit 500k at 18th century so it seems more reasonable for KL which is set at 14th century population to be at max 300k (probably even at 200k)

Oldtown: 225-250k
Lannisport: 150-175k
Gulltown: 40-75K
WH: 35-50K

 

King's Landing has been stated to have a population of 500,000 in peacetime. This number is supported by GRRM himself, who considers King's Landing much larger than medieval London (remember that Westeros is much larger and much more populous than Britain).

Oldtwon is said to be very close to it in size, so 450,000 seem like a minimum.

[direpupy]

19 minutes ago, redtree said:

I'm more on board with this number, London itself just hit 500k at 18th century so it seems more reasonable for KL which is set at 14th century population to be at max 300k (probably even at 200k)

Oldtown: 225-250k
Lannisport: 150-175k
Gulltown: 40-75K
WH: 35-50K

 

Despite the fact that in a medieval setting these numbers would be more reasonable we know that they are actually higher.

A Storm of Swords - Tyrion V

"Then take a good sniff, my lord. Fill up your nose. Half a million people stink more than three hundred, you'll find. Do you smell the gold cloaks? There are near five thousand of them. My father's own sworn swords must account for another twenty thousand. And then there are the roses. Roses smell so sweet, don't they? Especially when there are so many of them. Fifty, sixty, seventy thousand roses, in the city or camped outside it, I can't really say how many are left, but there's more than I care to count, anyway."

Even if we subtract the Lannister and Tyrell army's you are still left with 400.000 people.