Lord Varys Posted July 23, 2016 Share Posted July 23, 2016 9 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said: a bunch of unconnected quotes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisdaw Posted July 23, 2016 Share Posted July 23, 2016 The storyline of Shireen's burning loses a lot of emotional potency if it isn't by Stannis' command, and the decision becomes more distanced from when Jon faces the same decision if it isn't made by a king to save his realm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted July 23, 2016 Author Share Posted July 23, 2016 1 hour ago, Lord Varys said: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted July 23, 2016 Share Posted July 23, 2016 9 minutes ago, chrisdaw said: The storyline of Shireen's burning loses a lot of emotional potency if it isn't by Stannis' command, and the decision becomes more distanced from when Jon faces the same decision if it isn't made by a king to save his realm. Not sure whether Jon will ever face a similar decision. But Selyse's one redeeming quality seems to be her love for her daughter. She is the one who actually shows affection for her and even kisses her in front of others. I think Selyse would rather burn herself for the cause and her god than her only child. She would do anything to protect her only child, especially in a time when she may or may not believe that her lord husband and savior is dead. If the situation is very dire she might go as far as consider a mercy killing for Shireen but I don't see her ever considering burning the rightful Queen Regnant of the Seven Kingdoms and her only child. That would be insane. And completely without purpose at this point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisdaw Posted July 23, 2016 Share Posted July 23, 2016 In the broad stokes, Stannis, like Ned, Mance, Joer, Ygritte etc, existed(s) to form Jon. Stannis' sacrifice of Shireen carries on the theme of Ned's refusal of anything of the kind, and it is for Jon, that line, only a monster would give a living child to the flames. All set to clash against the cost of Dany's dragons, Hazzea and Rhaego, the cost she knew, hence sacrifices, the reason she calls herself a 'monster'. Selyse would follow Mel to the depths of hell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheDemonicStark Posted July 23, 2016 Share Posted July 23, 2016 Patchface has predicted the fall of the Wall. Let me get the qoute: I will lead it! We will march into the sea and out again. Under the waves we will ride seahorses, and mermaids will blow seashells to announce our coming, oh, oh, oh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted July 23, 2016 Share Posted July 23, 2016 9 hours ago, chrisdaw said: In the broad stokes, Stannis, like Ned, Mance, Joer, Ygritte etc, existed(s) to form Jon. Stannis' sacrifice of Shireen carries on the theme of Ned's refusal of anything of the kind, and it is for Jon, that line, only a monster would give a living child to the flames. All set to clash against the cost of Dany's dragons, Hazzea and Rhaego, the cost she knew, hence sacrifices, the reason she calls herself a 'monster'. Not sure if Jon sees Stannis as a role model or actually cares all that much what he would do. And we would have to wait and see whether Jon will even learn about or witness the Shireen sacrifice. Not to mention whether he'll ever come into a position to repeat it. But if Jon wants a Lightbringer of his own at one time he might need a Nissa Nissa, too. 9 hours ago, chrisdaw said: Selyse would follow Mel to the depths of hell. Perhaps. I'm not sure about the depth of her devotion, though. R'hllor gave her life meaning. Would Stannis' and Shireen's death not take all meaning she has left? And she seems to love her daughter. I don't see her want to kill her. Mel would have to have a very good reason to demand that of her. And right now she simply has none. None at all. Mel is not going to believe Stannis is dead. He cannot die because he is Azor Ahai. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted July 23, 2016 Author Share Posted July 23, 2016 7 hours ago, TheDemonicStark said: Patchface has predicted the fall of the Wall. Let me get the qoute: I will lead it! We will march into the sea and out again. Under the waves we will ride seahorses, and mermaids will blow seashells to announce our coming, oh, oh, oh. How does that predict the fall of the Wall? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted July 24, 2016 Author Share Posted July 24, 2016 This is from Sansas escape from Kings Landing... Quote The eastern sky was vague with the first hint of dawn when Sansa finally saw a ghostly shape in the darkness ahead; a trading galley, her sails furled, moving slowly on a single bank of oars. As they drew closer, she saw the ships figurehead, a merman with a golden crown blowing on a great seashell horn. She heard a voice cry out, and the galley swung slowly about. Sansa V, Storm I believe there is a reason the George described the ships figurehead so clearly, a merman with a golden crown blowing on a great seashell horn. Seashells are very closely associated with House Westerling. But I dont see any connection there. Davos at one points describes a sound like the faint whisper of the sea in seashell. Now, I tend to think that the George at least tries to write very carefully, with many phrases and passages relating to others. But in this instance, I think the George merely chose a poetic phrase to describe what Davos was hearing. But seashells were used back in Game to describe Stanniss activity on Draganstone... Quote A boy with an army, Varys said. Yet only a boy, as you say. The kings brothers are the ones giving Cersei sleepless nights . . . Lord Stannis in particular. His claim is the true one, he is known for his prowess as a battle commander, and he is utterly without mercy. There is no creature on earth half so terrifying as a truly just man. No one knows what Stannis has been doing on Dragonstone, but I will wager you that hes gathered more swords than seashells. So here is Cerseis nightmare: while her father and brother spend their power battling Starks and Tullys, Lord Stannis will land, proclaim himself king, and lop off her sons curly blond head . . . and her own in the bargain, though I truly believe she cares more about the boy. Eddard XV, Game So outside of House Westerling we seashells associated with Davos and Stannis, but really, what do we have? Not much if anything. But in Dance, we hit a lode, first when Asha is taken by Stannis outside Deepwood Motte... Quote A trumpet blew. That' s wrong, she thought. There are no trumpets in the Drowned God' s watery halls.Below the waves the merlings hail their lord by blowing into seashells. She dreamt of red hearts burning, and a black stag in a golden wood with flame streaming from his antlers. And then we hear from Patchface shortly before Jon is attacked by Bowen Marsh... Quote Patchface jumped up. I will lead it! His bells rang merrily. We will march into the sea and out again. Under the waves we will ride seahorses, and mermaids will blow seashells to announce our coming, oh, oh, oh. These two uses paint pictures nearly identical to the figurehead observed by Sansa, merlings or mermaids blowing seashells. Sansas merman was the figurehead of a ship, a sort of herald, and Ashas merlings and Patchfaces mermaids were clearly heralds. If you think this is all coincidental, you can stop reading now. The principal practice of the Drowned God religion referenced by Asha is to drown people in the sea and then resurrect them so they can rise harder and stronger. Patchface himself apparently drowned but washed ashore and was resurrected (albeit softer and dumber). But in both cases we have people drowning under the waves, in the Drowned Gods watery halls. And Sansas ship, well thats a Braavosi trading galley. Petyr, whose family originally hailed from Braavos, hired it to go to Gulltown, when the Lord of Harrenhal was dispatched to woo Lady Lysa in the Vale. Its also the ship Petyr uses to smuggle Sansa out of Kings Landing, and later, it returns to Gulltown from Braavos, and Petyrs man Oswell learns some interesting news. Most crowns, like the one that adorns the Merling Kings figurehead, are golden, including Stanniss. Stannis has just obtained the backing of the Iron Bank of Braavos, and we have reason to suspect he intends to effect a ruse in the battle against Houses Bolton and Frey. Moreover, we know that House Manderly, which has completed a small armada, has pledged to aid Stannis if Stanniss man Davos recovers Rickon, and we know that Manderly is associated with mermen. And finally, we know that Aurane Waters, the Bastard of Driftmark, who fought for Stannis and tricked Cersei into building ships he later appropriated to set himself up in the Stepstones as the Lord of the Waters, is associated with seahorses. Now, heres what I suspect will happen. Word of Stanniss defeat and death will spread, thus marching into the sea, but Manderly will triumph over Bolton. Stannis will then join Auranes power (riding seahorses) to Manderlys power (mermen blowing seashells) to threaten Aegon and/or Daenerys. And they'll be joined by the river lords still allied with North... Quote "Under the sea, men marry fishes." Patchface did a little dance step, jingling his bells. "They do, they do, they do." Jon XIII, Dance But not the Brackens... Quote Memories of ancient wrongs and bygone betrayals were not oft put aside by the lords of the Trident, whose enmities ran as deep as the rivers that watered their lands. Time and again, one or more of these riverlords would join with some invader against their own king; indeed, in some cases it was there very lords who brought the outsiders into the riverlands, offering them lands or gold or daughters for their help against familiar foes. The Riverlands, TWOIAF Stannis's host of Nothmen and Rivermen will array for battle at the Trident. Their numbers will be swollen by Northern childless and homeless men, unwed men, old men, and younger sons coming for war, for adventure and plunder, and for a glorious death to spare their kin beyond the Neck one more mouth to feed (just like Creegan Stark's host in the Dance of the Dragons). Daenerys will meet them... Quote That night she dreamt she was Rhaegar, riding to the Trident. But she was mounted on a dragon, not a horse. When she saw the Usurpers rebel host across the river they were armored all in ice, but she bathed them in dragonfire and they melted away like dew and turned the Trident into a torrent. However, I think rather than burn this host she will take it for her own to fight Aegon. Recall how Stannis took Renly's power for his own... Quote "I beg you in the name of the Mother," Catelyn began when a sudden gust of wind flung open the door of the tent. She thought she glimpsed movement, but when she turned her head, it was only the king's shadow shifting against the silken walls. She heard Renly begin a jest, his shadow moving, lifting its sword, black on green, candles guttering, shivering, something was queer, wrong, and then she saw Renly's sword still in its scabbard, sheathed still, but the shadowsword . . . "Cold," said Renly in a small puzzled voice, a heartbeat before the steel of his gorget parted like cheesecloth beneath the shadow of a blade that was not there. He had time to make a small thick gasp before the blood came gushing out of his throat. Catelyn IV, Clash We know that the North fought on the black side in the Dance of Dragons. And I seem to recall an SSM where the George said the North tended to be loyalist after Torrhen knelt (or perhaps it was a post by Ran). We know that Daenerys is going to slay the lie that is Stannis or his claim. Perhaps Drogo will remove Stannis and Daenerys will claim Stannis's forces the way Stannis claimed Renly's. Quote It were the black one, the man said, in a Ghiscari growl, the winged shadow. He come down from the sky and and Daenerys I, Dance 2 Quote "I know the cost! Last night, gazing into that hearth, I saw things in the flames as well. I saw a king, a crown of fire on his brows, burning . . . burning, Davos. His own crown consumed his flesh and turned him into ash. Do you think I need Melisandre to tell me what that means? Or you?" Davos V, Storm 54 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted July 24, 2016 Share Posted July 24, 2016 15 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said: How does that predict the fall of the Wall? You are asking that? Isn't it obvious? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheDemonicStark Posted July 24, 2016 Share Posted July 24, 2016 1 hour ago, Lost Melnibonean said: How does that predict the fall of the Wall? Well, think like this: We will go into the sea and out again sounds like being turned into a Wight, with the sea meaning death. The seahorse could mean spiders, and the mermen could mean the Others. The horn is, of course, the horn of Joraum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted July 24, 2016 Author Share Posted July 24, 2016 2 hours ago, Lord Varys said: You are asking that? Isn't it obvious? Nope. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted July 24, 2016 Author Share Posted July 24, 2016 1 hour ago, TheDemonicStark said: Well, think like this: We will go into the sea and out again sounds like being turned into a Wight, with the sea meaning death. The seahorse could mean spiders, and the mermen could mean the Others. The horn is, of course, the horn of Joraum. How would the Others be able to give the Horn of Joramun a toot when it is at the Citadel? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheDemonicStark Posted July 24, 2016 Share Posted July 24, 2016 7 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said: How would the Others be able to give the Horn of Joramun a toot when it is at the Citadel? Horseshit. I don't believe that is the real horn for a second. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisdaw Posted July 24, 2016 Share Posted July 24, 2016 Thinking on the Rat, the Hawk and the Pig. Called so because it was the masks they wore at some ball. Real names unknown. The three that assaulted Princess Aelora Targaryen at a masked ball, which contributed to her suicide. Lead a rebellion crushed by Daeron Targ and his squire (and likely lover) Ser Jeremy Norridge. Don't know what to make of this. It is strange in that it doesn't really fit. No-one knew their names, but they knew they were the same three from the masked ball. What did they sneak into the ball wearing those masks, then, without a name and wearing those same masks manage to raise a rebellion? To me it feels like an implausible story that will never be elaborated on, but thrown in purely for foreshadowing purposes. That no-one knew their names makes me think faceless men. And in the pig there may be some connection to Jaqen/Alchemist by way of Pate. Also there is the below, this could relate to Arya and pigs by way of Nymeria. Quote Jaime was more interested in what Hogg had to say of wolves. "We had some trouble with a band of them white star wolves," the old knight told him. "They come round sniffing after you, my lord, but we saw them off, and buried three down by the turnips. Before them there was a pack of bloody lions, begging your pardon. The one who led them had a manticore on his shield." House Hogg (pig) has issues with a pack of white star wolves. The wolves he is referring to are Karstark men, a white sun being their standard. But the white star is Nymeria's star, so it could be foreshadowing for Nymeria and her wolf pack attacking pigs, even House Hogg in future as she's not far. The most apparent thing in all this is that Princess Aelora T matches up with Cersei by way of her familial situation. She was one of three children, had a male twin, who she wed, and one younger sibling. The younger sibling was a female but eh. Perhaps it's as simple as the three Kettlebacks. Their most notable features are their hooked noses, one rats Cersei out and they're kind of pigs by way of nature. Cersei has bedded all three (I think? She admitted to doing so anyway), somewhat contributing to her downfall (walk of shame), and the almost sex scene with the one of them I think went out of the way to show Cersei didn't like the act, it was payment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted July 24, 2016 Author Share Posted July 24, 2016 9 hours ago, TheDemonicStark said: Horseshit. I don't believe that is the real horn for a second. Listen to the storyteller . . . Quote "My name isSamwell Tarly, of Horn . . . " He stopped and licked his lips. "I mean, I was ofHorn Hill, until I . . . left. I've come to take the black. My father is Lord Randyll, a bannerman to the Tyrells ofHighgarden. I used to be his heir, only . . . " His voice trailed off. Jon IV, Game 26Hmm . . . Samwell is from Horn Hill . . . Quote "Hear my words, and bear witness to my vow," they recited, their voices filling the twilit grove. "Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death. I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children. I shall wear no crowns and win no glory. I shall live and die at my post. I amthe sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn,the horn that wakes the sleepers, the shield that guards the realms of men. I pledge my life and honor to the Night's Watch, for this night and all the nights to come." Jon VI, Game 48So, one of the principal duties of the men of the Night's Watch is to rouse the men of Westeros to defend against the Others. But the horn used here is metaphorical. Quote The music grew wilder, the drummers joined in, and Hother Umber brought forth a huge curved warhorn banded in silver. When the singer reached the part in "The Night That Ended" where the Night's Watch rode forth to meet the Others in the Battle for the Dawn, he blew a blast that set all the dogs to barking. Bran III, Clash 21See, the horn sounds, and the Night's Watch rides off to defend the realms of men. That's a good horn. It wakes the sleepers Quote "Wildlings have invaded the realm before." Jon had heard the tales from Old Nan and Maester Luwin both, back atWinterfell. "Raymun Redbeard led them south in the time of my grandfather's grandfather, and before him there was a king named Bael the Bard." "Aye, and long before them came the Horned Lord and the brother kings Gendeland Gorne, and in ancient daysJoramun, who blew the Horn of Winter and woke giants from the earth. Each man of them broke his strength on the Wall, or was broken by the power of Winterfell on the far side . . . but the Night's Watch is only a shadow of what we were, and who remains to oppose the wildlings besides us? The Lord of Winterfell is dead, and his heir has marched his strength south to fight theLannisters. The wildlings may never again have such a chance as this. I knew ManceRayder, Jon. He is an oathbreaker, yes . . . but he has eyes to see, and no man has ever dared to name him faintheart." Jon III, Clash 23So this Joramun cat sounded the Horn of Winter and woke giants from the earth. That doesnt sound like a good horn, waking giants and all. I'd much rather have the horn that wakes the sleepers. But as we'll learn later, Joramun might not have been such a bad cat. Quote Jon brushed the loose soil away to reveal a rounded bundle perhaps two feet across. He jammed his fingers down around the edges and worked it loose. When he pulled it free, whatever was inside shifted and clinked. Treasure, he thought, but the shapes were wrong to be coins, and the sound was wrong for metal. A length of frayed rope bound the bundle together. Jon unsheathed his dagger and cut it, groped for the edges of the cloth, and pulled. The bundle turned, and its contents spilled out onto the ground, glittering dark and bright. He saw a dozen knives, leaf-shaped spearheads, numerous arrowheads. Jon picked up a dagger blade, featherlightand shiny black, hiltless. Torchlight ran along its edge, a thin orange line that spoke of razor sharpness. Dragonglass. What themaesters call obsidian. Had Ghost uncovered some ancient cache of the children of the forest, buried here for thousands of years? The Fist of the First Men was an old place, only . . .Beneath the dragonglass was an old warhorn, made from an auroch's horn and banded in bronze. Jon shook the dirt from inside it, and a stream of arrowheads fell out. He let them fall, and pulled up a corner of the cloth the weapons had been wrapped in, rubbing it between his fingers. Good wool, thick, a double weave, damp but not rotted. It could not have been long in the ground. And it was dark. He seized a handful and pulled it close to the torch. Not dark. Black. Even before Jon stood and shook it out, he knew what he had: the black cloak of a Sworn Brother of the Night's Watch. Jon IV, Clash 34This. Keep your eye on the prize. Quote The call came drifting through the black of night. Jon pushed himself onto an elbow, his hand reaching for Longclaw by force of habit as the camp began to stir. The horn that wakes the sleepers, he thought. . . . Mormont moved to the fire. "The Halfhand. And past time." . . . Jon slid his new dagger from its sheath and studied the flames as they played against the shiny black glass. He had fashioned the wooden hilt himself, and wound hempen twine around it to make a grip. Ugly, but it served. Dolorous Edd opined that glass knives were about as useful as nipples on a knight's breastplate, but Jon was not so certain. The dragonglass blade was sharper than steel, albeit far more brittle. It must have been buried for a reason. He had made a dagger for Grenn as well, and another for the Lord Commander.The warhorn he had given to Sam. On closer examination the horn had proved cracked, and even after he had cleaned all the dirt out, Jon had been unable to get any sound from it. The rim was chipped as well, but Sam liked old things, even worthless old things."Make a drinking horn out of it," Jon told him, "and every time you take a drink you'll remember how you ranged beyond the Wall, all the way to the Fist of the First Men." He gave Sam a spearhead and a dozen arrowheads as well, and passed the rest out among his other friends for luck. The Old Bear had seemed pleased by the dagger, but he preferred a steel knife at his belt, Jon had noticed. Mormont could offer no answers as to who might have buried the cloak or what it might mean. Perhaps Qhorin will know. The Halfhandhad ventured deeper into the wild than any other living man. . . . Mormont's head came up sharply. "What?" "They do not plan to climb the Wall nor to burrow beneath it, my lord. They plan to break it." "The Wall is seven hundred feet high, and so thick at the base that it would take a hundred men a year to cut through it with picks and axes." "Even so." Mormont plucked at his beard, frowning. "How?" "How else? Sorcery." Qhorin bit the egg in half. "Why else would Mance choose to gather his strength in the Frostfangs? Bleak and hard they are, and a long weary march from the Wall." "I'd hoped he chose the mountains to hide his muster from the eyes of my rangers." "Perhaps," said Qhorin, finishing the egg, "but there is more, I think. He is seeking something in the high cold places. He is searching for something he needs." "Something?" Mormont's raven lifted its head and screamed. The sound was sharp as a knife in the closeness of the tent. "Some power. What it is, our captive could not say. He was questioned perhaps too sharply, and died with much unsaid. I doubt he knew in any case." Jon V, Clash 43So, we know that the Mance is seeking some fell power to use against the Night's Watch. Quote They're not wearing skins, Jon realized. That's hair. Shaggy pelts covered their bodies, thick below the waist, sparser above. The stink that came off them was choking, but perhaps that was the mammoths. AndJoramun blew the Horn of Winter, and woke giants from the earth. He looked for great swords ten feet long, but saw only clubs. Most were just the limbs of dead trees, some still trailing shattered branches. A few had stone balls lashed to the ends to make colossal mauls. The song never says if the horn can put them back to sleep. . . . "So how did you come by your other names?" Jon asked. "Mance called you the Horn-Blower, didn't he? Mead-king of Ruddy Hall, Husband to Bears, Father to Hosts?" It was the horn blowing he particularly wanted to hear about, but he dared not ask too plainly.And Joramun blew the Horn of Winter, and woke giants from the earth. Is that where they had come from, them and their mammoths? Had Mance Rayderfound the Horn of Joramun, and given it toTormund Thunderfist to blow? Jon II, Storm 15And we know that giants are real. But did the Mance blow Joramun's horn to wake these giants? If not, then what kind of giants would blowing that horn wake? Quote "Why are you crying, then?" "Not for fear!" She kicked savagely at the ice beneath her with a heel, chopping out a chunk. "I'm crying because we never found the Horn of Winter.We opened half a hundred graves and let all those shades loose in the world, and never found the Horn of Joramun to bring this cold thing down!" Jon IV, Storm 30Here we're told that Mance didn't find the horn. The only reason to question the authenticity of this is that Ygritte would not have been privy to any secret strategy the Mance might have had up his sleeve. Quote But Dywen listened, and DolorousEdd, and they made Sam and Grenn tell the Lord Commander. Mormont frowned all through the tale and asked pointed questions, but he was too cautious a man to shun any possible advantage. He asked Sam for all the dragonglass in his pack, though that was little enough. Whenever Sam thought of the cache Jon had found buried beneath the Fist, it made him want to cry. There'd been dagger blades and spearheads, and two or three hundred arrowheads at least. Jon had made daggers for himself, Sam, and Lord Commander Mormont, and he'd given Sam a spearhead, an old broken horn, and some arrowheads. Grenn had taken a handful of arrowheads as well, but that was all. Samwell II, Storm 33But Jon gave that old horn to Sam, the dude from Horn Hill. Quote Mance never found the horn, though, that's something. The Horn of Winter, that's what he was digging for up along theMilkwater." Maester Aemon paused, washcloth in hand. "The Horn of Winter is an ancient legend. Does the King-beyond-the-Wall truly believe that such a thing exists?" "They all do," said Jon. Jon VI, Storm 48Jon believed Ygritte was right. Quote He brought her back to the Nightfortand proclaimed her a queen and himself her king, and with strange sorceries he bound his Sworn Brothers to his will. For thirteen years they had ruled, Night's King and his corpse queen, till finallythe Stark ofWinterfell and Joramun of the wildlings had joined to free the Watch from bondage. After his fall, when it was found he had been sacrificing to the Others, all records of Night's King had been destroyed, his very name forbidden. Bran IV, Storm 56So Joramun the wilding joined with House Stark to free the Night's Watch from the yoke of the Night's King. Since the Wall was already built, and since we're led to believe that sounding Joramun's horn will bring down the Wall, that's not when he blew it. He must have blown it before the rise of the Night's King. Quote Jon was trying to make sense of that when the horn blew. The Horn of Winter, he thought, still confused from sleep. But Mance never found Joramun's horn, so that couldn't be. A second blast followed, as long and deep as the first. Jon had to get up and go to the Wall, he knew, but it was so hard . . . Jon VIII, Storm 64 Quote "Well, I am not satisfied, Maester," said the jowly man. "I will hear these explanations for myself. Yes I will!" Jon swallowed his anger. "I abandoned no one. I left the Fist with Qhorin Halfhand to scout the Skirling Pass. I joined the wildlings under orders. The Halfhand feared that Mance might have found the Horn of Winter . . . " "The Horn of Winter?" Ser Alliser chuckled. "Were you commanded to count their snarksas well, Lord Snow?" "No, but I counted their giants as best I could." Jon IX, Storm 69Here we learn that the legend of the Horn of Winter is known to southrons as well as northmen. Quote Jon kept his face as still as ice. Foul enough to slay a man in his own tent under truce. Must I murder him in front of his wife as their child is being born? He closed the fingers of his sword hand. Mance was not wearing armor, but his own sword was sheathed on his left hip. And there were other weapons in the tent, daggers and dirks, a bow and a quiver of arrows, a bronze-headed spear lying beside that big black . . . . . . horn. Jon sucked in his breath. A warhorn, a bloody great warhorn.Yes," Mance said. "The Horn of Winter, that Joramun once blew to wake giants from the earth." The horn was huge, eight feet along the curve and so wide at the mouth that he could have put his arm inside up to the elbow. If this came from an aurochs, it was the biggest that ever lived. At first he thought the bands around it were bronze, but when he moved closer he realized they were gold. Old gold, more brown than yellow, and graven with runes. "Ygritte said you never found the horn." "Did you think only crows could lie? I liked you well enough, for a bastard . . . but I never trusted you. A man needs to earn my trust." Jon faced him. "If you've had the Horn ofJoramun all along, why haven't you used it? Why bother building turtles and sendingThenns to kill us in our beds? If this horn is all the songs say, why not just sound it and be done?" It was Dalla who answered him, Dalla great with child, lying on her pile of furs beside the brazier. "We free folk know things you kneelers have forgotten. Sometimes the short road is not the safest, Jon Snow. The Horned Lord once said that sorcery is a sword without a hilt. There is no safe way to grasp it." Mance ran a hand along the curve of the great horn. "No man goes hunting with only one arrow in his quiver," he said. "I had hoped that Styr and Jarl would take your brothers unawares, and open the gate for us. I drew your garrison away with feints and raids and secondary attacks. Bowen Marsh swallowed that lure as I knew he would, but your band of cripples and orphans proved to be more stubborn than anticipated. Don't think you've stopped us, though. The truth is, you are too few and we are too many. I could continue the attack here and still send ten thousand men to cross the Bay of Seals on rafts and takeEastwatch from the rear. I could storm the Shadow Tower too, I know the approaches as well as any man alive. I could send men and mammoths to dig out the gates at the castles you've abandoned, all of them at once." "Why don't you, then?" Jon could have drawn Longclaw then, but he wanted to hear what the wildling had to say. "Blood," said Mance Rayder. "I'd win in the end, yes, but you'd bleed me, and my people have bled enough." "Your losses haven't been that heavy." "Not at your hands." Mance studied Jon's face. "You saw the Fist of the First Men. You know what happened there. You know what we are facing." "The Others . . . " "They grow stronger as the days grow shorter and the nights colder. First they kill you, then they send your dead against you. The giants have not been able to stand against them, nor the Thenns, the ice river clans, the Hornfoots." "Nor you?" "Nor me." There was anger in that admission, and bitterness too deep for words. "Raymun Redbeard, Bael the Bard,Gendel and Gorne, the Horned Lord, they all came south to conquer, but I've come with my tail between my legs to hide behind your Wall." He touched the horn. Again. "If I sound the Horn of Winter, the Wall will fall. Or so the songs would have me believe. There are those among my people who want nothing more . . . " "But once the Wall is fallen," Dalla said, "what will stop the Others?" Mance gave her a fond smile. "It's a wise woman I've found. A true queen." He turned back to Jon. "Go back and tell them to open their gate and let us pass. If they do, I will give them the horn, and the Wall will stand until the end of days.""If you refuse," Mance Rayder said, "Tormund Giantsbane will sound the Horn of Winter three days hence, at dawn." Jon X, Storm 73And here we have it: Sounding Joramun's Horn of Winter will wake giants from the earth and bring down the Wall. Quote Gilly nodded, cradling the babe against her breast, her eyes welling full of tears. She is going to weep again, Sam realized. It was more than he could take. His swordbelt hung from a peg on the wall, beside the old cracked horn that Jon had given him. He ripped it down and buckled it about him, then swept his black wool cloak about his rounded shoulders, slumped through the door, and clattered down a wooden stair whose steps creaked beneath his weight. The inn had two front doors, one opening on a street and one on a canal. Sam went out through the former, to avoid the common room where the innkeepwas sure to give him the sour eye that he reserved for guests who had overstayed their welcome. Samwell III, Feast 26The Mance may have that big fancy horn, but are you keeping your eyes on the prize? Quote "Mance knows the haunted forest better than any ranger," Jon had told KingStannis, in his final effort to convince His Grace that the King-Beyond-the-Wall would be of more use to them alive than dead. "He knows Tormund Giantsbane. He has fought the Others. And he had the Horn of Joramunand did not blow it. He did not bring down the Wall when he could have." Lady Melisandre watched him rise. . . . "FREE FOLK! Here stands your king of lies. And here is the horn he promised would bring down the Wall." Two queen's men brought forth the Horn ofJoramun, black and banded with old gold, eight feet long from end to end. Runes were carved into the golden bands, the writing of the First Men. Joramun had died thousands of years ago, but Mance had found his grave beneath a glacier, high up in theFrostfangs. And Joramun blew the Horn of Winter, and woke giants from the earth.Ygritte had told Jon that Mance never found the horn. She lied, or else Mance kept it secret even from his own. . . . "The Horn of Joramun?" Melisandre said. "No. Call it the Horn of Darkness. If the Wall falls, night falls as well, the long night that never ends. It must not happen, will not happen! The Lord of Light has seen his children in their peril and sent a champion to them, Azor Ahai reborn." She swept a hand toward Stannis, and the great ruby at her throat pulsed with light. . . .The Horn of Joramun burst into flame. Jon III, Dance 10So, the Horn of Winter is destroyed . . . or is it? Quote Then he heard the horn. A long low moan, it seemed to hang above the battlements, lingering in the black air, soaking deep into the bones of every man who heard it. All along the castle walls, sentries turned toward the sound, their hands tightening around the shafts of their spears. In the ruined halls and keeps ofWinterfell, lords hushed other lords, horses nickered, and sleepers stirred in their dark corners. No sooner had the sound of thewarhorn died away than a drum began to beat: BOOM doom BOOM doom BOOM doom. And a name passed from the lips of each man to the next, written in small white puffs of breath. Stannis, they whispered,Stannis is here, Stannis is come, Stannis,Stannis, Stannis. "Do they mean to try and blow our walls down?" japed a Flint when the warhornsounded once again. "Mayhaps he thinks he's found the Horn of Joramun." A Ghost in Winterfell, Dance 46This appears to be nothing more than a joke, but the storyteller is redirecting us toward the Horn of Winter. Quote "You need a bigger gate," Tormundcomplained to Jon with a sour look up at the sky, where a few clouds had blown in. "Too bloody slow this way. Like sucking theMilkwater through a reed. Har. Would that I had the Horn of Joramun. I'd give it a nice toot and we'd climb through the rubble." "Melisandre burned the Horn of Joramun." "Did she?" Tormund slapped his thigh and hooted. "She burned that fine big horn, aye. A bloody sin, I call it. A thousand years old, that was. We found it in a giant's grave, and no man o' us had ever seen a horn so big. That must have been why Mance got the notion to tell you it were Joramun's. He wanted you crows to think he had it in his power to blow your bloody Wall down about your knees. But we never found the true horn, not for all our digging. If we had, every kneeler in your Seven Kingdoms would have chunks o' ice to cool his wine all summer." Jon turned in his saddle, frowning. AndJoramun blew the Horn of Winter and woke giants from the earth. That huge horn with its bands of old gold, incised with ancient runes had Mance Rayder lied to him, or was Tormund lying now? If Mance' s horn was just a feint, where is the true horn? Jon XII, Dance 58Well, that's the $64,000 question. And here's the answer . . . Quote It has to be Horn Hill, Sam finally decided. Once we reach Oldtown I'll hire a wagon and some horses and take her there myself. Samwell V, Feast 45It's on its way to Horn Hill! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fattest Leech Posted July 24, 2016 Share Posted July 24, 2016 @Lost Melnibonean I don't think you have enough proof here. Let me help. Sam is in Oldtown to train a s a maester and the third link is generally the bronze link, which is astronomy. The bronze bands on the horn are broken and it's a good thing Sam is in a place that trains its people to forge metals and also has a library that holds secrets from hundreds of years past. Sam does love to read and learn about past, as Jon also commanded him to do. A Clash of Kings - Jon V It must have been buried for a reason. He had made a dagger for Grenn as well, and another for the Lord Commander. The warhorn he had given to Sam. On closer examination the horn had proved cracked, and even after he had cleaned all the dirt out, Jon had been unable to get any sound from it. The rim was chipped as well, but Sam liked old things, even worthless old things. "Make a drinking horn out of it," Jon told him, "and every time you take a drink you'll remember how you ranged beyond the Wall, all the way to the Fist of the First Men." He gave Sam a spearhead and a dozen arrowheads as well, and passed the rest out among his other friends for luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BricksAndSparrows Posted July 25, 2016 Share Posted July 25, 2016 How about this one... When Jon and Sam take their vows, and they discover the bodies of Othor and Jaffer Flowers. The chapter ends with Ghost trotting up with a dead hand in his Mouth. In the very next chapter, Ned makes his move in the Throne room and is betrayed by...everyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fattest Leech Posted July 25, 2016 Share Posted July 25, 2016 19 minutes ago, BricksAndSparrows said: How about this one... When Jon and Sam take their vows, and they discover the bodies of Othor and Jaffer Flowers. The chapter ends with Ghost trotting up with a dead hand in his Mouth. In the very next chapter, Ned makes his move in the Throne room and is betrayed by...everyone. When I come across stuff like that during re-reads, I feel like this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BricksAndSparrows Posted July 25, 2016 Share Posted July 25, 2016 43 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said: When I come across stuff like that during re-reads, I feel like this LOL. Totally. My favorite chapter of all the books is probably Sansa's last chapter in A Storm of Swords. The scene where Petyr is helping with the Snowcastle is fantastic. I can see the general message coming from that part, Petyr is obviously grooming her, and influencing her, but i wonder if there is a more specific message we are supposed to take from that seen. I wonder if Sansa will one day spike a Giants head on the walls of Winterfell. Here is a thought... Maybe it will be Tyrion's. A little toy giant. "My giant of Lannister." In GRRM;s letter to his agent (or Publisher, I can't recall.) he talks about Tyrion burning Winterfell. Obviously that was in a early draft. I'm half kidding about the Tyrion/Giant thing. But I am really curious about that snowcastle scene. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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