Dwarfism: A Targaryen Trait?

[Liaraeyne]

Thanks for posting this, Queen who never was. It was well written and you have quite convinced me.

 

Also:

21 hours ago, Lord Lannister said:

Most of the counterarguments to A+J=T are colored by what people want/don't want, like it "ruining" a relationship, one secret Targ being enough, or other entirely subjective statements.

I agree.

[direpupy]

35 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

In any event it's a Lannister name of Kings. 

I can't see why he would name Tyrion after two Lannister Kings of old(and good rulers I may add, even though one of thems sexual preferences are a tad freaky)  if he had any inkling he wasn't a pure Lannister. 

If he suspected him an issue through rape/consensual sex by Aerys and not his own trueborn son he could have named him after some famous failure of the past, or some lack wit fool. He never though, he picks a name of two Kings who ruled well by all accounts. 

Its like Tywin knew Tyrion was his, I think he secretly admired and was proud of his sons cunning, and did indeed have high hopes for him before his birth, but the fact Tyrion came out a Dwarf, "killed" his beloved Joanna and grew up a disappointment with his silly ways and whoring, Tywin has nothing but hate for him. Which is a shame. 

I think Genna had the right of it when she tells Jaime Tyrion is more Tywins son than him. And Tywin was furious probably because he loathes his Imp son and what he has become when he had the cunning, and the name to become an awesome Lannister.(which he is in our eyes) but in Tywins eyes he is just a disappointment and a shame on him. More so because he knows he is his. 

Of course though,I  am no fact master and Tyrion may well be Aerys son 

 

 

I am actually firmly in the "A+J=t is an awfull theory that kills of everything good about the caracter kamp" but i think Tywin might have named him Tyrion as a means to show that he was not the slightest bit fased by having a dwarf son, with just a hint of a sneer via way of the tormentor.

[Light a wight tonight]

12 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Yeah, well, but that was necessarily for the survival and the restoration of his family, no? Tytos hadn't only made the Lannisters of Casterly Rock a laughingstock, he had also made the entire West a place full of lawlessness, rebellion, and private wars. Tywin had to be harsher than harsh to hit home the fact that he wasn't his father's son in the sense that he was as soft as Tytos was.

By the that time everyone on Westeros - and especially in the West - was accustomed to laugh about the Lord of Casterly Rock. To change that back to normal - i.e. made the Lannisters a power which was respected and feared - Tywin had to be overly cruel. But that doesn't necessarily mean he enjoyed murdering children or liked the idea of drowning everyone in Castamere. But then - the Reynes still failed to realize what was going on at that point. Tywin couldn't possibly besiege the castle in a conventional manner. Had they yielded things may have gone quite different. There would have been executions, but I guess the women and children would have survived as hostages at Casterly Rock.

Executing the heads of the families and taking hostages would have opened the eyes of any remaining doubters that the Lannisters were no longer to be taken lightly. To say that eradicating the Reynes and Tarbecks was necessary is to excuse atrocities generally. 

 

[Light a wight tonight]

11 hours ago, Winter Rose Crown said:

Not  everyone who  is raped wants to have an abortion. Sure, rape is a reason for abortion (not that you need a reason) but part of having control of your body is also being  able to keep a baby you want. Just because you didn't want to be raped doesn't mean you don't want to keep the  baby. The baby isn't *just* Aerys's "rape-baby", it is also Joanna's baby. Maybe she wanted to keep her baby. Can you really not think of a single reason a woman would make that choice? Or why calling the child a "rape-baby" is offensive and rude? 

Sorry for being offensive and rude. I lack 21st Century sensibilities. That said, if Joanna wanted to give birth to Aerys's child she was dealing Tywin a huge insult. It's hard for me to reconcile her loving Tywin with such an action. (OK, it's in the books that Tywin loved her, but not that she loved him, so that there may be some leeway there.) 

So, if Tyrion was Aerys's seed, either Joanna told Tywin that or allowed him to believe that Tyrion was his. I don't see Tywin letting Aerys's child live. He's the guy who wiped out two major Houses for insulting the Lannisters, so one infant that was a direct slap in his face couldn't be expected to survive. Would Tywin have promised Joanna to protect Tyrion, even though Tyrion wasn't his? Ignoring the fact that there's absolutely no support for this in the books, he might have. Whether or not he would have kept the promise is a different story. I'd say that his anger and sense of betrayal would overcome any such promise. 

[ravenous reader]

9 hours ago, Liaraeyne said:

you have quite convinced me.

 

Also:

On ‎3‎/‎6‎/‎2016 at 8:20 AM, Lord Lannister said:

Most of the counterarguments to A+J=T are colored by what people want/don't want, like it "ruining" a relationship, one secret Targ being enough, or other entirely subjective statements.

I agree.

Contending that one side is more 'subjective,' or 'objective,' than the other is just another way of asserting ones subjectivity!  Suggesting that only one party brings its 'emotional' predilections to bear, while the other party is operating from a privileged 'rational' viewpoint, is smug and objectionable.  It's all about interpretation of the text, depending on what you'd like to find (i.e. 'confirmation bias').  If you're looking to find so-called 'evidence' for A+J=T, then that 's the tendency you'll bring to bear in your 'reading.'  For example, consider the following ambiguous constructions:

Quote

Tyrion turned north with Benjen Stark and his nephew.

If A+J=T appeals to you (for psychological reasons), you'll read this to mean 'Tyrion turned north with his [Tyrion's] nephew'..i.e. Jon Snow is Tyrion's nephew, and conclude that there is additional 'evidence' for your theory, whereupon it will be added to the latest version of A+J=T (?8 or 9 now), where it piles up, assuming over time the reified status of canon.

If however A+J=T is not up your alley (again, for psychological reasons), you'll read this to mean 'Tyrion turned north with Benjen Stark and [Benjen Stark's] nephew.'  Benjen is, after all, Jon Snow's uncle, no matter how you configure Jon's paternity and/or maternity.

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Most of my kin are bastards," he said with a wry smile, "but you're the first I've had to friend."

If you're looking for 'evidence' of A+J=T, then you will jump on this with glee, and conclude that Tyrion meant 'you're the first [kin] I've had to friend,' meaning Jon is his kin.

If, however, you're not that way inclined, then you'll interpret that Tyrion meant, 'you're the first [bastard] I've had to friend.'

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"What do you know about being a bastard?"

"All dwarfs are bastards in their father's eyes."

If you 'want' A+J=T, then this is a great 'irony,' that Tyrion was literally a bastard (because he's the son of Aerys) in his father's eyes, and that was the primary reason for Tywin rejecting him, not the dwarfism

If, however, you're not 'into' that type of 'irony,' preferring other ironies, you'll take this at face value, that Tywin rejected him because he was a 'misshapen' dwarf, and therefore didn't accord with Tywin's narcissistic vision for his progeny.

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You, who killed your mother to come into the world? You are an ill-made, devious, disobedient, spiteful little creature full of envy, lust, and low cunning. Men's laws give you the right to bear my name and display my colors, since I cannot prove that you are not mine. To teach me humility, the gods have condemned me to watch you waddle about wearing that proud lion that was my father's sigil and his father's before him. But neither gods nor men shall ever compel me to let you turn Casterly Rock into your whorehouse."

Consider the phrase 'ill-made':  if you're looking to 'confirm' A+J=T, you'll interpret this to mean that Tyrion was a product of Aerys raping Joanna.

If, however, you prefer Tywin as Tyrion's biological father, then it follows that the reason Tyrion is 'ill-made' either refers to his physical deformity as a dwarf, or to the fact that his 'ill-made' personality is a reflection of Tywin himself ('ill-made' in the sense either by biology or upbringing). An 'ill-made, devious, disobedient, spiteful little creature full of envy, lust, and low cunning' is after all quite an apt description of the less pleasant attributes of Tywin himself.

What is uncontestable, is that Tywin obviously had his doubts about Tyrion's paternity, for a number of reasons.  However, that he had doubts does not mean that we should accept Tywin's paranoia as fact.  Despite Tywin's prejudices, Tyrion may still be his biological son.  Or not..!

While I don't think there's necessarily more evidence for one scenario than another, it's clear that GRRM wishes us to consider both of these as possibilities.  This kind of over-determination of meaning is one of his narrative techniques, whereby GRRM creates intrigue and suspense, and leaves his options open...

 

[Liaraeyne]

13 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

Contending that one side is more 'subjective,' or 'objective,' than the other is just another way of asserting ones subjectivity!  Suggesting that only one party brings its 'emotional' predilections to bear, while the other party is operating from a privileged 'rational' viewpoint, is smug and objectionable.

Oh, come on. There is a huge difference between hints & evidence from the text and saying things like 'one secret Targ is enough' or 'it ruins a relationship'.

OP compiled a lot of textual backup for his/her theory and makes a good case. Trying to argue against it using entirely subjective arguments like 'one secret Targ is enough' is just plain unreasonable.

[ravenous reader]

7 hours ago, Liaraeyne said:

Oh, come on. There is a huge difference between hints & evidence from the text and saying things like 'one secret Targ is enough' or 'it ruins a relationship'.

Point taken; it's true, the theories for A+J=T tend to be more elaborate than those for T+J=T.  Perhaps this is due to the fact that more onus lies with the A+J=T supporters to prove their case, since T+J=T is the default position, the one we've been given as a given, i.e. the status quo, for which there is enough support already.  If I challenged you, would you be able to construct a convincing-enough case, with enough 'evidence' to prove definitively that Asha Greyjoy is 'truly' Balon's daughter?  Without a paternity test, probably not...  You probably believe that she's Balon's biological child because that's what you've been told, and there are no hints pointing you to consider other possibilities. In Tyrion's case, there are more hints prompting us to consider alternative paternity, so it is proper that we consider these; however, that does not necessarily mean that the default position is false.  I've said before, GRRM likes to muddy meanings, to obscure the path forward. 

Nevertheless, let's not discount the obvious similarities between Tywin and Tyrion.  First, their names:  The typical Lannister alpha-male prefix 'Ty-', which has been passed down from 'Ty-tos' to 'Ty-win' to 'Ty-rion,' would seem to indicate that Tyrion is the legitimate heir of the Lannister legacy.  Of all the Lannister siblings (and their children), Tyrion is singular in this respect.  Then, Tyrion's personality structure and intelligence, so similar to Tywin's own.  Tyrion is Tywin's 'mini-me':

Quote

Tyrion is Tywin's son, not you [Jaime]. I said so once to your father's face, and he would not speak to me for half a year. Men are such thundering great fools. Even the sort who come along once in a thousand years."

If you write off Genna's words here, preferring to prioritize other quotes, then that is your choice, your interpretation; nevertheless, this is an intriguing quote, from someone who knew both Tywin and Joanna's histories intimately.  Then, Tywin did not kill Tyrion at birth, or later, and begrudgingly accepted him as his own.  I don't think Tywin suddenly grew a heart or a conscience; he never had either.  Regardless of his 'feelings' for Joanna, had he even suspected that the child was not his, he would not have meekly tolerated his loathed rival's 'dragonspawn' in his midst-- ever.  Another thing to consider, since we are specifically discussing the significance of the dwarfism here, is that there are many precedents in the text cautioning of the deformity, physical and psychological, that can result as a consequence of incestuous relations (e.g. 'unhealthy' Targaryens, Lannisters, Craster, etc.), and the relative health and strength of the offspring that comes from mating outside ones clan (e.g. 'healthy' Targaryens, Wildling injunction to 'steal' a wife, the whole idea of the child combining polar opposites 'ice and fire,' etc.).  So, to my mind, Tyrion's dwarfism can more reasonably be explained as a consequence of Tywin having mated with his first cousin Joanna, rather than anything else, particularly if one considers that Jaime and Cersei may instead be Aerys's children, which would make Tyrion the only true child of Tywin Lannister.

Just a final note on 'ruining the relationship' or 'one secret Targ is enough'...While I agree those assertions do not amount to an argument, I think we should draw a distinction between the facts of the text, on the one hand, and how a reader feels about the facts of the text, on the other.  What some readers are communicating is that if in the facts of the text it were to turn out that Aerys, not Tywin, were to be Tyrion's father, they would feel betrayed somehow, and feel that it was bad writing on GRRM's part-- and they are entitled to have this response.  Just as, should A+J=T turn out not to be the case, a lot of people are going to feel pretty sheepish, disappointed, and perhaps even resentful towards GRRM for leading them up the garden path and down into the thicket-- and that too is their right.  Each reader has the freedom to be critical towards GRRM; he is not an infallible writer, or person, for that matter; he is not a god! 

Regarding 'ruining the irony,' consider the Oedipal tragedy, in which Oedipus, ignorant of his true identity, unknowingly ends up sleeping with his biological mother and killing his biological father.  Were it to turn out that his mother and father were suddenly not related to him, essentially absolving Oedipus of incest and kinslaying, yes, that does 'ruin the irony, unravelling as it does that archetypal knot!  Analogously, it ruins the irony-- for Tywin not Tyrion-- were Aerys to be Tyrion's biological father.  Tywin, plagued by his doubts regarding Tyrion's paternity, spent a lifetime ruining his son's life, thereby ruining his own, bringing about his own death, implicating his son in kinslaying, and spoiling his precious legacy.  The irony is particularly poignant if it turns out, as I believe, that Tyrion is, as Aunt Genna maintains, Tywin's only son and heir.  The irony is that Tywin, in his hate for Aerys, brought about his own ruin.  And that ironic ruin would be ruined for me by A+J=T, which is my aesthetic prerogative, although by no means a proof.

 

[The Queen Who Never Was]

On March 4, 2016 at 3:21 PM, Jak Scaletongue said:

Neither Tywin, Aerys or Joanna were dwarves (as far as we know) so regardless of who Tyrion's daddy is, it can not be passed to him simply because none of them had the mutated gene to pass on.  It's not a recessive gene, it's a complete mutation of the gene while the fetus is growing - much like Down's Syndrome*, it all comes down to random chance. 

While it's true that Tywin, Aerys, or Joanna were not dwarves themselves, it doesn't rule out the possibility that one of them could have been a carrier of a dwarfism recessive gene. Since we've never heard mention of deformities in House Lannister, I looked to see if we'd ever heard of any in House Targaryen, and indeed we had. While Tyrion's birth defect might be a new mutation, it might also be a rare recessive form of dwarfism.

On March 4, 2016 at 3:21 PM, Jak Scaletongue said:

TL;DR - dwarfism isn't recessive.  It's a genetic mutation that occurs in the womb.  Only a person with dwarfism can "pass it on" to their children, and even that's not guaranteed (two dwarves can have a child of average height - the likelihood is 50/50 for a pair of dwarf parents).  Since neither Aerys, Tywin or Joanna were dwarves, none of them could pass the mutated gene on to Tyrion.  Since both options for his father were not dwarves themselves, Tyrion's dwarfism was a genetic mutation that occured while he was still in utero.

In response, I think it is important to note that not all forms of dwarfism are dominant or random. There do exist rare forms of dwarfism which are recessive. Having written that, let's keep in mind what @LordVarys wrote about Aerys and Rhella being siblings who married. Though they did have three children who survived into adulthood, they also had many children who were stillborn. While we don't have any physical descriptions of those stillborn children, it's not impossible that those children were not viable due to some sort of recessive genes. 

On March 6, 2016 at 8:20 AM, Lord Lannister said:

Excellent post and analysis. Most of the counterarguments to A+J=T are colored by what people want/don't want, like it "ruining" a relationship, one secret Targ being enough, or other entirely subjective statements.

Thank you very much. Though I'm not the first person to have picked up on a pattern of Targaryen stillborn children being described with terrible deformities, I did want to explore the idea that these descriptions might be exaggerations of realistic genetic conditions (the way the story of "Lord Tywin's Doom" turned out to be an exaggeration of the truth and an old wives' tale meant to cast dispersions on Tywin and on House Lannister). While I think many people do lean one way or the other on the theory, I think it's important at least to keep an open mind. I enjoy the exploration of ideas. That is I prefaced my original post wit the word "IF Tyrion is really the illegitimate son of Aerys II" rather than simply assuming it was a true premise. 

On March 6, 2016 at 3:05 PM, BlueNightzx said:

I fully agree
Tyrion is a grotesque reflection of Tywin, and he knows that (in the end, we get to see that tywin enjoyed whores too, and his rage to his son is perhaps an rage against his true nature)
tyrion has the same intellectual prowess, the same strategic mind and calm, he is the "de facto" tywins heir, and thats the point of their arc together

A man can still be a strong paternal influence on a child without being the biological father. Nothing can undermine nor redact what has already been written about Tywin's extreme influence over Tyrion, even if it is revealed later that Tyrion has the blood of Old Valyria (with the eventual payoff of Tyrion being a dragonrider). Tyrion certainly is "Tywin writ  small" in the sense that Tyrion very much takes after Twyin. However, the same could be said of Jon Snow being greatly influenced by Ned Stark, although Jon may indeed be the biological son of Rhaegar Targaryen if L + R = J is true. Jon is as much a "son" of Ned as are Robb, Bran or Rikon, even if Jon turns out to be Ned's nephew rather than his bastard. So, while Tywin might not have been able to disprove that Tyrion was his true born son, he certainly shaped Twyin in his own image, even more so than he did Jaime. Tyrion, who was always inwardly longing for Tywin's approval, seems to have taken on many of Tywin's own personality traits, which are mostly learned. 

On March 6, 2016 at 3:05 PM, BlueNightzx said:

tyrion in the end being another targ because he is cool and the audience love those fire breathing incest lunatics would kill the character to me, tyrion IS the quintessential lannister.like lann the clever, no swords, just his wits..

Tyrion is still a Lannister though his mother, Joanna Lannister, who was first cousin to Twyin. So whether or not Tywin is the biological father, Tyrion is still Tywin's kin and a descendant of Lann the Clever. 

[4 Eyed Crow]

Regardless of who the father is, I don't believe Tyrion's dwarfism has anything to do with incest-related deformities. I believe that it was just a random mutation. 

[skip to for short version]

Detailed version:

Incest-related deformities are the result of recessive familial traits popping up. Some types of dwarfism is dominant, and others are recessive. The most common type of dwarfism is achondroplasia, which is dominant. I believe it's highly likely that's the type GRRM had in mind when he created Tyrion. 

It accounts for 70-80% of dwarfism, so chances are high to begin with that's what Tyrion has. Furthermore, here are some descriptions of Tyrion's appearance:

Wiki of Ice and Fire

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Tyrion is a dwarf, with stubby legs, a jutting forehead, mismatched eyes of green and black,

AGOT

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[Tyrion] was a dwarf, half his brother's height, struggling to keep pace on stunted legs. His head was too large for his body, with a brute's squashed-in face beneath a swollen shelf of brow. 

ASOS

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“Cersei even undid your swaddling clothes to give us a better look [...] Perhaps your head was larger than most [...] Lord Tywin’s Doom turned out to be just a hideous red infant with stunted legs.

 

ADWD

Quote

Tyrion's hand was cramping. He put his quill aside and flexed his stubby fingers.

Symptoms of achondroplasia:

• a short stature that’s significantly below average for age and sex
• short arms and legs, especially the upper arms and thighs, in comparison to body height 
• short fingers in which the ring and middle fingers may also point away from each other 
• a disproportionately large head compared to the body
• an abnormally large, prominent forehead
• an underdeveloped area of the face between the forehead and upper jaw (squashed-in face)

Overall, I think Tyrion would fit the description of achondroplasia pretty well. Since achondroplasia is dominant, that would mean it is either the result of random mutation (as the majority of cases are), or inherited from a parent who has it him/herself. Even when a parent has achondroplasia, they won't neccessarily have a dwarf child, since they will only have 50% chance of passing on the gene.

Neither Aerys, Tywin, nor Joanna is a dwarf. It likely is the result of random mutation, and not incest-related even if Aerys was the father. 

Short version: Incest-related deformities are recessive. Chances are high that Tyrion has a dominant type of dwarfism, which is the result of random mutation (as the majority of cases are) or inherited from a dwarf parent. Since Tywin, Aerys, and Joanna were all not dwarfs, it is random mutation.

Plus, J+T were more closely related than A+J. Then again, maybe Planetos genetics are different.