Robb Stark's downfall

[Adam Yozza]

25 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

Considering the uneasy reciprocal relationship of Grey Wolf to the Spicers and the Westerlings respectively, drawing the conclusion that the Westerlings were definitely not involved may be too hasty.

Robb said that Grey Wind didn't like Rolf or Sybil, but nothing about him not liking Jeyne. He said Jeyne was uneasy about Grey Wind not the other way around.

But maybe....either way I'm certain that Raynald at the very least wasn't in on it, and I doubt Rollam or Eleyna (as young children) would have been included in any plan.

[devilish]

Robb plans were doomed the day he placed a crown on his head as King in the Nooooorrrtttthhh. Irrespective who ended up sitting on the iron throne they would have wanted the North back. All they had to do is to burn the Riverlands at a crisp and watch Robb leaving his cold fortress to come to the rescue again

[Nevets]

2 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Or that would had been the easier for his "consciousness" because he didn't had the guts to actually do what a King should do; to be just and fair no matter who he has in front of him. His supporters would had accepted a non-fatal punishment for both of them. I am not saying that he had to kill Cat no matter what, I am saying that if he had to punish one of them with killing, exile, or just house arrest him he should had done the same for the other. His actions are what caused him to lose some of his greater supporters. If keeping Cat at house arrest why not doing the same with Rickard and then after the war decide? 

As I said above; I am not saying that he had to kill Cat no matter what, I am saying that if he had to punish one of them with killing, exile, or just house arrest him he should had done the same for the other. His actions are what caused him to lose some of his greater supporters. If keeping Cat at house arrest why not doing the same with Rickard and then after the war decide? 

So releasing a valuable prisoner in the (reasonable) hope that it will get you daughters (who are also Robb's sisters) freed is equivalent to the deliberate murder of two young squires (prisoners) in their cell?  I think not.  A commander of Robb's caliber cannot tolerate that sort of conduct from anyone, even (or especially) one of his bannerman.  Also, Catelyn had legitimate fears that Jaime himself would be murdered, likely leading to Sansa and Arya's execution (so far as she knows).  I will admit it is a close call, but I have no real objection to his execution of Lord Karstark, or his merely placing Catelyn under house arrest.

[ravenous reader]

32 minutes ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

Marrying Jeyne, monumentally stupid and bad as it was, happened when he was already waist-deep and upside down in a shit creek, I don't imagine Frey and Bolton not jumping the ship even without Jeyne.

Had he not married Jeyne, however, there would also not have been the urgency of foolishly interrupting the war effort to go to the Red Wedding.  Even if, as you say, Frey and Bolton would've 'jumped ship', Rob would've had a better chance to defend himself, had he not had to attend the lamb-to-the-slaughter occasion that was the Red Wedding.

32 minutes ago, John Doe said:

He should have kept Karstark prisoner until the end of the war to ensure his men's loyalty and later have him join the NW, that wouldn't be judged too harshly by his bannermen but would make it clear that they can't just consider themselves above the law. Cat could have  gone unharmed because well, she is his mother, it should be enough of an explanation for his men.

Agree.  Executing Karstark, apart from turning Rob into an accursed kinslayer, was a tactical error, and yet another example of Rob's hubris-- kinda reminds me of some of Dany's 'hubrises,'when it comes to meting out 'justice'...but let's not get into that here..!

 

26 minutes ago, Lord High Papal said:

Two harsh responses to acts of defiance, though brutal, can prevent further defiance for the future.  In the end, it is about what works.  The ethical question is, good for whom? 

 Everyone has their 'blindspot,' and Tywin is no exception.  What may have worked for him for a time on the battlefield, did not 'work' for him with his family, particularly in his relationship to Tyrion.  I'm thinking here of his 'harsh responses' to Tyrion, particularly the Tysha episode, and his inability to bring himself to reward Tyrion for anything-- which is ultimately all Tyrion desires, i.e. an audience for his greatness-- even a blind man can figure that one out!  His short-sightedness when it comes to Tyrion ultimately was Tywin's undoing.  If no-one understands why it 'ruins the irony,' if Aerys were to be Tyrion's father and not Tywin, herewith the irony...The clever, accomplished son, who should be the apple of his eye, is instead his blindspot; thus, he ends up destroying his legacy, not only cultural but also biological!

[Jon's Queen Consort]

3 minutes ago, Nevets said:

So releasing a valuable prisoner in the (reasonable) hope that it will get you daughters (who are also Robb's sisters) freed is equivalent to the deliberate murder of two young squires (prisoners) in their cell?  I think not.  A commander of Robb's caliber cannot tolerate that sort of conduct from anyone, even (or especially) one of his bannerman.  Also, Catelyn had legitimate fears that Jaime himself would be murdered, likely leading to Sansa and Arya's execution (so far as she knows).  I will admit it is a close call, but I have no real objection to his execution of Lord Karstark, or his merely placing Catelyn under house arrest.

Exactly the same maybe freeing Jaime was even worse. Jaime was more valuable than Willem so by definition it is worse. Which became even worse since no effing sane person, who btw have no actual power over the prisoners, would had freed his most valuable prisoner, the key to claim the enemy's land, just because someone else made him swore an oath on swordpoint. If Cat actually believe that she was even more idiot that I thought that she was, however I don't believe that she was stupid enough to actually believe that but she was desperate and it was the last thing she could do.

[RainGhost]

I'm not entirely sure what we're supposed to be discussing here - Robb's mistakes in general or specifically the Westerling marriage? As the former has been done to death, I'll focus on the latter.

I think the way we're supposed to read it is that Sybelle Spicer was in it from the beginning and 'pushed' Jeyne towards Robb. The evidence for this is that Jaime asks Jeyne whether she's pregnant - if the moon tea had been the only part of the plan, then why on earth would Jaime ask her this? However, it's clear that Jeyne, Raynald and Rollam weren't in on it. I don't think it's strange that Jeyne nursed him - Robb was a king, so could hardly be nursed by a common servant. The strange part is that they were left alone together.

To me, this is one of the (too many) plot points that doesn't work. The idea that Tywin Lannister can dictate who goes into Robb's bed beggars belief (as does Rodrik Cassel deciding to leave Winterfell undefended). It only works because of a series of flukes. Without Robb's injury or his brothers 'deaths', it doesn't happen. Not to mention the fact that Tywin was wrong when he said "Jeyne Westerling is her mother's daughter and Robb Stark is his father's son." Jeyne is nothing like her mother - she slept with Robb because she wanted to/wanted to comfort him, not because she wanted a crown. Robb is like Ned in terms of morals and principles, so yes he married Jeyne, but he's not like Ned in terms of personality. Tywin was probably thinking that even the honourable Lord Eddard fathered a bastard while at war, so his son will be no different but we know that Jon is not Ned's son. If Robb had been more like Ned, he would never have slept with Jeyne (but he's more passionate).

In short, Tywin's plan should never have worked. It was a complete fluke and that just annoys me. It works if Robb was given a love potion but that's just not as interesting a story. Human emotions causing people to make mistakes makes for a much better story than someone's actions being dictated by magic.

For what it's worth, I think Robb's biggest mistakes were letting Theon go and giving Roose Bolton command of his foot. Most of his other problems stemmed from these 2 things. Of the OP's list, killing Karstark was not a mistake. Not punishing Catelyn angered Karstark but he was a loose cannon anyway. It didn't bother any of his other lords, so I wouldn't count that as a mistake either.

As a side note, why is it that the only topic people discuss about Robb is 'what mistakes did he make' (to which the answer is apparently everything he did) or 'who should he have married'? Why not try to understand why Robb did what he did, what his realistic options were, how he must have been feeling, instead of just criticising him blindly? He's a largely overlooked character, which I think is a shame because GRRM wrote him really well (as he does all his characters).

[Mladen]

10 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Or that would had been the easier for his "consciousness" because he didn't had the guts to actually do what a King should do; to be just and fair no matter who he has in front of him. His supporters would had accepted a non-fatal punishment for both of them. I am not saying that he had to kill Cat no matter what, I am saying that if he had to punish one of them with killing, exile, or just house arrest him he should had done the same for the other. His actions are what caused him to lose some of his greater supporters. If keeping Cat at house arrest why not doing the same with Rickard and then after the war decide? 

Because Rickard and Catelyn are not in the same position, nor their crimes are the same. Punishing them the same would be ignoring obvious children - Rickard jeopardized the safety of every hostage Lannisters had, had done that entire Westeros considers brutality and overall, deserved a punishment he got. Catelyn, on another hand, did something against Robb's wishes but she most certainly wasn't killing anyone or putting many lives in immediate danger.

Also, justice is not that blind. And Robb did punish Catelyn. She wasn't part of his council, nor she had any saying in any of his decision. Furthermore, she was supposed to go with Mallister far from Robb. So it wasn't without repercussions. At the end, killing Karstark costed him one house, regardless of how powerful it is. punishing own family in any similar way to Karstark, would cost him his entire army. 

In short, equalizing what Karstark and what Cat did is as wrong as equalizing, for example, what Karstark did and what Jon did to NW. After all, it would be crazy to expect Jeor Mormont to have killed Jon for leaving NW.

[Darth Sidious]

19 minutes ago, Nevets said:

So releasing a valuable prisoner in the (reasonable) hope that it will get you daughters (who are also Robb's sisters) freed is equivalent to the deliberate murder of two young squires (prisoners) in their cell?  I think not.  A commander of Robb's caliber cannot tolerate that sort of conduct from anyone, even (or especially) one of his bannerman.  Also, Catelyn had legitimate fears that Jaime himself would be murdered, likely leading to Sansa and Arya's execution (so far as she knows).  I will admit it is a close call, but I have no real objection to his execution of Lord Karstark, or his merely placing Catelyn under house arrest.

You can't let one get off lightly, and then drop the hammer on the other.  That's a no-win situation especially when Robb himself screwed up very badly.  That's why I'm saying he should let them both off the hook, recognizing that he himself made an even bigger mistake when he broke his contract with Walder Frey.  Robb was easy on himself, moderate with his mother, and harsh with Karstark.  That's awful leadership to me.  Robb was not a good leader by any means and should never rule anything larger than a hog pen.

[RainGhost]

1 minute ago, Lord High Papal said:

You can't let one get off lightly, and then drop the hammer on the other.  That's a no-win situation especially when Robb himself screwed up very badly.  That's why I'm saying he should let them both off the hook, recognizing that he himself made an even bigger mistake when he broke his contract with Walder Frey.  Robb was easy on himself, moderate with his mother, and harsh with Karstark.  That's awful leadership to me.  Robb was not a good leader by any means and should never rule anything larger than a hog pen.

So, you are equating murdering child prisoners with releasing a prisoner and breaking an oath of betrothal? Please tell me you don't work in the justice system.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

14 minutes ago, Risto said:

Because Rickard and Catelyn are not in the same position, nor their crimes are the same. Punishing them the same would be ignoring obvious children - Rickard jeopardized the safety of every hostage Lannisters had, had done that entire Westeros considers brutality and overall, deserved a punishment he got. Catelyn, on another hand, did something against Robb's wishes but she most certainly wasn't killing anyone or putting many lives in immediate danger.

Also, justice is not that blind. And Robb did punish Catelyn. She wasn't part of his council, nor she had any saying in any of his decision. Furthermore, she was supposed to go with Mallister far from Robb. So it wasn't without repercussions. At the end, killing Karstark costed him one house, regardless of how powerful it is. punishing own family in any similar way to Karstark, would cost him his entire army. 

In short, equalizing what Karstark and what Cat did is as wrong as equalizing, for example, what Karstark did and what Jon did to NW. After all, it would be crazy to expect Jeor Mormont to have killed Jon for leaving NW.

Right. Rickard had actually risked his life to fight for Robb, he had given him himself, his sons, his power and so on. What Cat did from Robb during the War? Engage him to a Frey? Or sitting in his council? Because who other than Cat has just a long experience in war right? Robb's punishment to Cat was just bs, it wasn't a punishment at all.

The difference between the two of them is that the first one has actually fought and lost people because of Robb and Robb betrayed him and on the other that Cat had done nothing other than giving birth to him. 

[thelittledragonthatcould]

8 minutes ago, RainGhost said:

 Of the OP's list, killing Karstark was not a mistake.

 

Sure it was. When Robb called his banners unlike some of his other Lords (Dustin, Ryswell, Manderlys) Karstark answered the call with his full strength. He took so many men that his own lands suffered:

"Not well." Alys sighed. "My father took so many of our men south with him that only the women and young boys were left to bring the harvest in. Them, and the men too old or crippled to go off to war. Crops withered in the fields or were pounded into the mud by autumn rains. And now the snows are come. This winter will be hard. Few of the old people will survive it, and many children will perish as well."

Two of his sons had sacrificed their lives by putting themselves infront of Robb against Jaime Lannisters attack.

Another son was captured going into a battle that Robb knew was likely to be a loss.

When Winterfell and Robb's brothers was taken and Rodrik and Luwin called out for help the Karstarks (despite being one of the furtherest Houses away) were one of the few to send help to the Starks when they desperately needed it.

 

So yes, in short it was a mistake. You simply don't give the harshest punishment available to someone whose House has been so loyal to you. Is it any wonder that the some Karstarks troops joined in with the Red Wedding?

[Mladen]

3 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Right. Rickard had actually risked his life to fight for Robb, he had given him himself, his sons, his power and so on. What Cat did from Robb during the War? Engage him to a Frey? Or sitting in his counsel? Because who other than Cat has just a long experience in war right? Robb's punishment to Cat was just bs, it wasn't a punishment at all.

The difference between the two of them is that the first one has actually fought and lost people because of Robb and Robb betrayed him and on the other that Cat had done nothing other than giving birth to him. 

A man killed two children. He was a coward. As blunt as I can be, what Karstark did is a shame for generations of his family. The man literally went with dozen soldiers and killed two children thus risking the lives of countless hostages all over Westeros. Why we say that RW is bad? Because it was a precedent that jeopardizes entire system of diplomacy. This was the same. There are things you simply don't do. Killing two unarmed children in prison cell is beyond cowardice and beyond forgiveness. 

No one raised a voice when Karstark was killed. No one said he should have been pardoned. On the other hand, everyone were OK with Catelyn not getting some great punishment. You would imagine those Northern and Riverlords would say "King, you should do something about your mother". And yet, they remain silent.

 

[Ser Tristan Flowers]

Someone can´t kill his own mother and expect his bannermen to be cool with it, especially the riverlords, but every northern noble would be alienated aswell. I imagine killing the person that gave life to you is the worst type of kinslaying, if there is any. 

He shouldn´t have killed lord rickard either, but killing catelyn too would only make it worse. A king is still a human being, what kind of human being kills his own mother?

 

Robb actually lost it when he released Theon, when the ironborn invaded his defeat was so obvious that everyone could feel it, not a good vibe to have around people like roose and walder. I don´t think he can win against Tywin in the long run either way, but the defeat wouldn´t have been as devastating as it was. If he didn´t have to head back north, no red wedding, maybe walder and roose wouldn´t even feel safe enough to openly betray robb. He might have been able to sue for peace.

[Adam Yozza]

I actually think the only mistake he made (as listed in the OP) was sending Theon to Pyke. If he hadn't done that, then Bran and Rickon would have been fine, therefore no marrying Jeyne, no releasing Jaime. The Battle of the Fords was misunderstanding. Robb said something and meant it literally ('Hold Riverrun') and Edmure took it figuratively.

In terms of what did happen: he couldn't exactly give the message to his bannermen that it was okay to kill defenseless prisoner's. He had dozens of highborn's captive in various castle's. He needed to show that actions like Karstark's would be punished severely. 

Besides, Karstark wasn't the only person to loose people against the Lannister's. Daryn Hornwood also died putting himself in front of the Kingslayer for Robb. Wylis Manderly was captured in a battle that Robb might have known would be lost, while Halys Hornwood and Medgar Cerwyn died in the same battle. You don't see Hornwood, Cerwyn or Manderly men murdering Lannister hostage's, so why should Karstark be allowed?

[RainGhost]

1 minute ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

Sure it was. When Robb called his banners unlike some of his other Lords (Dustin, Ryswell, Manderlys) Karstark answered the call with his full strength. He took so many men that his own lands suffered:

"Not well." Alys sighed. "My father took so many of our men south with him that only the women and young boys were left to bring the harvest in. Them, and the men too old or crippled to go off to war. Crops withered in the fields or were pounded into the mud by autumn rains. And now the snows are come. This winter will be hard. Few of the old people will survive it, and many children will perish as well."

Two of his sons had sacrificed their lives by putting themselves infront of Robb against Jaime Lannisters attack.

Another son was captured going into a battle that Robb knew was likely to be a loss.

When Winterfell and Robb's brothers was taken and Rodrik and Luwin called out for help the Karstarks (despite being one of the furtherest Houses away) were one of the few to send help to the Starks when they desperately needed it.

 

So yes, in short it was a mistake. You simply don't give the harshest punishment available to someone whose House has been so loyal to you. Is it any wonder that the some Karstarks troops joined in with the Red Wedding?

3 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Whatever Karstark had done before became completely irrelevant when he murdered Tion and Willem. Robb had to kill him for 3 reasons:

1. Justice - Robb is the king and must be seen to dispense justice, else why are his lords following him and not Joffrey? The penalty for murder is death. This is especially important when you remember how Bran and Rickon were 'murdered'.

2. Honour -  by executing Karstark, Robb makes it very clear the murders were not by his orders. Otherwise, why should anyone ever believe that Robb will keep his prisoners safe (and why should they reciprocate)? Someone who has recently broken an oath cannot afford another stain on their honour.

3. Control - Robb is still only 16. If he doesn't execute Karstark, his men will take it as a sign of weakness and will take it as an invitation to do whatever they like.

To Jon's Queen Consort: all Cat did was give birth to him? Really?

[Jon's Queen Consort]

8 minutes ago, Risto said:

A man killed two children. He was a coward. As blunt as I can be, what Karstark did is a shame for generations of his family. The man literally went with dozen soldiers and killed two children thus risking the lives of countless hostages all over Westeros. Why we say that RW is bad? Because it was a precedent that jeopardizes entire system of diplomacy. This was the same. There are things you simply don't do. Killing two unarmed children in prison cell is beyond cowardice and beyond forgiveness. 

No one raised a voice when Karstark was killed. No one said he should have been pardoned. On the other hand, everyone were OK with Catelyn not getting some great punishment. You would imagine those Northern and Riverlords would say "King, you should do something about your mother". And yet, they remain silent.

A woman set free her King's most valuable prisoner she is a traitor. Rickard's actions was revenge, just like Robb's war. Why Robb was ok to start a war to take revenge for his father and Rickard killing two people was murder?

And no one raised a voice because they saw that Robb was an idiot and if the told anything he would had killed them too.

3 minutes ago, RainGhost said:

To Jon's Queen Consort: all Cat did was give birth to him? Really?

What else? Engaged him to a Frey? (Not) making an alliance with Renly?  Playing Stratego Westeros?

[ravenous reader]

37 minutes ago, Adam Yozza said:

Robb said that Grey Wind didn't like Rolf or Sybil, but nothing about him not liking Jeyne. He said Jeyne was uneasy about Grey Wind not the other way around.

My point is that it's not insignificant that an 'uneasiness' of any sort exists between Jeyne and Grey Wind.  Actually, I find it suspicious.  And I say 'between,' because the way communication proceeds between two parties implies a message that is sent by one party and picked up by another.  The process of responding to one another implies a back-and-forth, to-and-fro movement, which contradicts the idea of a purely one-sided message.  It is unlikely that one party would receive an 'uneasy' message, without some form of 'uneasiness' having been transmitted by the other.  Alternatively, it is possible that something about the situation causes one party to project an uneasy feeling onto the other, although no uneasy message had been sent.  Applied to Jeyne's case, this begs the question as to why the relationship between her and Grey Wolf-- which actually represents her relationship with Rob-- was uneasy.  The suggestion is that there is a lack of trust, for some reason.  The way the symbolism with the wolves has been set out, I don't think it suffices to merely cite the 'simple' explanation, that she was terrified after having witnessed the wolf kill a man.  Recall what Cat says, that if someone fears/rejects Grey Wind, it is the same as fearing/rejecting Rob himself.  The direwolves are more than themselves; there is always a larger symbolism in play, and that needs to be explained.

[Mladen]

6 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

A woman fred her King's most valuable prisoner she is a traitor. Rickard's actions was revenge, just like Robb's war. Why Robb was ok to start a war to take revenge for his father and Rickard killing two people was murder?

Wait, did those children kill Rickard's son? If they didn't, and I think it was Jaime who killed them, then it wasn't a revenge but cowardice. He dishonored his sons who died in battle by the worst cowardice. 

[thelittledragonthatcould]

7 minutes ago, RainGhost said:

Whatever Karstark had done before became completely irrelevant when he murdered Tion and Willem. Robb had to kill him for 3 reasons:

Well no Robb did not have to kill him. Robb did not have to do anything, he is the King.

7 minutes ago, RainGhost said:

3. Control - Robb is still only 16. If he doesn't execute Karstark, his men will take it as a sign of weakness and will take it as an invitation to do whatever they like.

 

He lost far more men by Killing Karstark then he would have lost by sparing him.

It was an idiotic decision. He had the safety of two kingdoms to think about and once again "muh honour" makes him make a selfish decision that puts his own people in danger.

This is how he treats his most loyal vassals who make a mistake, of course others are going to be less loyal to him now.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

2 minutes ago, Risto said:

Wait, did those children kill Rickard's son? If they didn't, and I think it was Jaime who killed them, then it wasn't a revenge but cowardice. He dishonored his sons who died in battle by the worst cowardice. 

Those Westerlanders men that Robb attacked hadn't wronged him or his family in anyway, yet he brought war to them because of pure revenge. Same thing. Cat committed high treason against her own son, her ancestors with the "Family duty honor" and husband were turning in their graves by what she did.