Wow, I Never Noticed That, v. 14

[Lost Melnibonean]

7 hours ago, Walda said:

Another thing unique to the prelude, that I'm not sure is just because the details weren't settled at that point, or if it is some kind of clue, is the iron bob, as in: "Will would not have given an iron bob for the lordling’s life"(AGoT, Prelude)

The only iron coin that has actually made an appearance in the story so far is the one Jaqen gives Arya in  Clash of Kings (Ch.47 Arya IX), which every man in Braavos recognises the terrible import of.

The thing is, what we know of Robert's reign, does match a boom economy, with correspondingly sudden and steep inflation, especially during/after the Greyjoy Rebellion.

It would be totally appropriate if Robert introduced an iron coin as a trading token of some slightly lower denomination than a silver stag, to reduce forgery. clipping,  adulteration, hoarding, and general shortage of the silver coinage when the value of the silver in the stags started to exceeded their face value.

This. and the fluctuations of a bi-metal cash standard, created problems for the 18th century British Empire, which lead to the USA trading in Spanish dollars (valued at about 1/4 of a pound each), and Canada and Australia adopting holey dollars, and the introduction of smaller and smaller denomination bank notes in England  - £10 in 1759 as a result of the seven years war, £5 in 1793, and £1 and £2 in 1797, as a result of the French Revolutionary wars.

Also, controversially, from 1797 to 1821 the bank (and by extension, everyone else) was authorised to pay in paper instead of silver, a measure that kept the wheels of commerce turning, but that everyone suspected, as, in their minds, silver had intrinsic value and paper had none. (There was a thing in Australia, where children born in Great Britain were described as 'sterling', while those born in the colony were 'currency' - the implication being that their paternity was as dubious) . 

Anyway, an iron coin of only nominal value, worth about a star (seven stars to a stag), and disparagingly named after the King as they rapidly lost value, made perfect sense to me, only we hear nothing of them except from Will.

Wasn't the term a "bob" an unspecified amount of money used in late medieval England? And since money then was almost exclusively the value of the metal, wouldn't an iron bob suggest that the value of such a coin was worthless? So Will saying he would not give an iron bob, means he thinks the idea less than worthless. 

[Walda]

Not an unspecified amount. A 'bob' was a shilling in the old money, or 12 pence. When Australia went to decimal currency(1966), a bob became ten cents, the nearest equivalent to the old 12p shilling, and our 5 cent piece was the equivalent of sixpence (The Australian dollar was based on the 10 bob note - ie. the half pound note). In Britain a pound is a pound is a pound, so when they went decimal, the twenty shilling pound became their base unit, and one bob in the old money became 5 new p. in 1972.

 It is still part of the Australian vernacular (dodgy as a two bob watch, a bob each way, etc.) Same in South Africa. And in Kenya, only in Kenya, the shilling is their base currency, so to them 'one bob' has a meaning closer to  'one buck' than 'a dime' or 'one twentieth of a pound'.

Although the shilling has only existed as a coin since the late 15th century, it has existed as a unit of account meaning 1/20th of a pound since the 8th century (A pound was literally 1lb of silver, which was supposed to be how much 240 silver pennies would weigh - or at least how much the silver in them would weigh.)

In the 8th century, a shilling was enough to buy a cow, and a penny was a considerable amount of money, I've found an inflation multiplier that tells me a it's purchasing power was nearer £4 in todays money, but £48 is a very good price for a cow in today's money- at the moment, in Australia, more like £360. and while cattle prices are at record highs at the moment, I still suspect the purchasing power of an 8th century shilling was at least three times more than that - closer to £12 per 8th century silver penny)

Gold coins were introduced in the 12th century (and were always a pound or more in value), and the groat (a silver coin, worth four pennies) too. The English were fairly obsessed with the notion that a coin had to have metal to its face value in it to be any use, but the Scottish had started using copper tokens for small denomination trading, for convenience in the 16th century, and in the 17th century, copper coins became a thing in England too. They were never minted at the Royal mints, like 'real' coins, and were never intended to contain even a farthings worth of copper, During the English Commonwealth, when the patents for producing copper currency went the way of the monarchy, many traders started making their own copper coins - they were kind of like a loyalty scheme, in that they could only be traded for goods at that tradesman's store, (or at the store of another tradesman that was prepared to accept their tokens - sort of like the way Pizza Hut will sometimes accept a Domino's discount voucher for the sake of getting your business). One early farthing was a copper ring with a bronze disc in the centre (introduced after an excessive amount of forged farthings had been found - because farthings were primarily a coin for the smallfolk, and not very profitable for the big end of town to mint or convenient for them to use, the smallfolk got very restive when forgeries meant that the money they had earnt was confiscated and they were not compensated. At least the bronze insert stopped the forgeries) Later there was a farthing that was tin with a copper insert. Base metal currency never was worth it's face value, though. At least, not until the late 20th/early 21st century, when copper values spiked. But by then, nobody really cared if the metal in the coin was worth more or less than its value, and many countries had got rid of their copper coins altogether, and even if the copper in a penny was worth three cents, it would take a lot of pennies to get rich from selling them for scrap, assuming you could find a scrap merchant who would give you money for legal tender.

You are right, it is clear from the context that  'wouldn't give an iron bob' implies that an iron bob is a trifling amount of money. But I don't think that is inconsistent with a copper star - yes, it is eight pennies, but it is only 1/7th of a 'real' silver coin, not a great sum to wager, even for the smallfolk.(ETA: Now that I think about it, a copper star is very close to a 'bit' as in a Mexican Real, worth 1/8 of a Spanish dollar.)

Of course, it could be the Westeros equivalent of a brass razoo (Australian slang for a fictional Indian or Egyptian coin that is worth nothing, hence 'haven't got a brass razoo' = broke, and 'not worth a brass razoo'=worthless) - but the fact that it is called a 'bob' made me suspect it was the Westeros equivalent of a shilling, and that it had been (disparagingly) named after Robert Baratheon.

ETA: The Spanish dollar that the modern US dollar is based on was given the value of five shillings (one crown) in the colonies, so a bob would be closer to a quarter than a dime in the USA before 1794.

ETA: Also, the modern agricultural equivalent of an Anglo-Saxon ox would probably be a tractor, rather than a yearling bred for meat.

[Lost Melnibonean]

53 minutes ago, Walda said:

Not an unspecified amount. A 'bob' was a shilling in the old money, or 12 pence. When Australia went to decimal currency(1966), a bob became ten cents, the nearest equivalent to the old 12p shilling, and our 5 cent piece was the equivalent of sixpence (The Austrailan dollar was based on the 10 bob note - ie. the half pound note). Britain didn't have a half-pound note, and a pound is a pound is a pound, so one bob in the old money became 5 new p. in 1972.

 It is still part of the Australian vernacular (dodgy as a two bob watch, a bob each way, etc.) Same in South Africa. And in Kenya, only in Kenya, the shilling is their base currency, so to them 'one bob' has a meaning closer to  'one buck' than 'a dime' or 'one twentieth of a pound'.

Although the shilling has only existed as a coin since the late 15th century, it has existed as a unit of account meaning 1/20th of a pound since the 8th century (A pound was literally 1lb of silver, which was supposed to be how much 240 silver pennies would weigh - or at least how much the silver in them would weigh.)

In the 8th century, a shilling was enough to buy a cow, and a penny was a considerable amount of money, I've found an inflation multiplier that tells me a it's purchasing power was nearer £4 in todays money, but £48 is a very good price for a cow in today's money- at the moment, in Australia, more like £360. and while cattle prices are at record highs at the moment, I still suspect the purchasing power of an 8th century shilling was at least three times more than that - closer to £12 per 8th century silver penny)

Gold coins were introduced in the 12th century (and were always a pound or more in value), and the groat (a silver coin, worth four pennies) too. The English were fairly obsessed with the notion that a coin had to have metal to its face value in it to be any use, but the Scottish had started using copper tokens for small denomination trading, for convenience in the 16th century, and in the 17th century, copper coins became a thing in England too. They were never minted at the Royal mints, like 'real' coins, and were never intended to contain even a farthings worth of copper, During the English Commonwealth, when the patents for producing copper currency went the way of the monarchy, many traders started making their own copper coins - they were kind of like a loyalty scheme, in that they could only be traded for goods at that tradesman's store, (or at the store of another tradesman that was prepared to accept their tokens - sort of like the way Pizza Hut will sometimes accept a Dominos discount voucher for the sake of getting your business). One early farthing was a copper ring with a bronze disc in the centre (introduced after an excessive amount of forged farthings had been found - because farthings were primarily a coin for the smallfolk, and not very profitable for the big end of town to mint or convenient for them to use, the smallfolk got very restive when forgeries meant that the money they had earnt was confiscated and they were not compensated. At least the bronze insert stopped the forgeries) Later there was a farthing that was tin with a copper insert. Base metal currency never was worth it's face value, though. At least, not until the late 20th/early 21st century, when copper values spiked. But by then, nobody really cared if the metal in the coin was worth more or less than its value, and many countries had got rid of their copper coins altogether, and even if the copper in a penny was worth three cents, it would take a lot of pennies to get rich from selling them for scrap, assuming you could find a scrap merchant who would give you money for legal tender.

You are right, it is clear from the context that  'wouldn't give an iron bob' implies that an iron bob is a trifling amount of money. But I don't think that is inconsistent with a copper star - yes, it is eight pennies, but it is only 1/7th of a 'real' silver coin, not a great sum to wager, even for the smallfolk.

Of course, it could be the Westeros equivalent of a brass razoo (Australian slang for a fictional Indian or Egyptian coin that is worth nothing, hence 'haven't got a brass razoo' = broke, and 'not worth a brass razoo'=worthless) - but the fact that it is called a 'bob' made me suspect it was the Westeros equivalent of a shilling, and that it had been (disparagingly) named after Robert Baratheon. 

Wow, are you from Australia? I spent few days in Sydney on business once and loved the place. 

[Walda]

Yes, Australian, although I live a little further north, in Brisbane. Where are you from? (I had been assuming you could be found in Ibben)

Now I have slept on it, 1/20th of a silver stag would be worth about three copper pennies, so the closest coin to a real-life bob would be a groat (4 pennies, in real life at least), not a star.

[Lost Melnibonean]

36 minutes ago, Walda said:

Yes, Australian, although I live a little further north, in Brisbane. Where are you from? (I had been assuming you could be found in Ibben)

Now I have slept on it, 1/20th of a silver stag would be worth about three copper pennies, so the closest coin to a real-life bob would be a groat (4 pennies, in real life at least), not a star.

I am from the soon to be walled off USofA, where once we sought to tear 'em down, but now we're gonna get other folks to build 'em for us. 

[Jon Weirgaryen]

20 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

I am from the soon to be walled off USofA, where once we sought to tear 'em down, but now we're gonna get other folks to build 'em for us. 

Will they charge an entry fee to that zoo, as they did when there still was such a big one in Germany?

[No One of Importance]

I never noticed Asha's issues with trees (and I wonder if these moments are telling us something more significant):

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She thought back to a tale she had heard as a child, about the children of the forest and their battles with the First Men, when the green seers turned the trees to warriors.

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The trees were huge and dark, somehow threatening.  Their limbs wove through one another and creaked with every breath of wind, and their higher branches scratched at the face of the moon.  The sooner we are shut of here, the better I will like it, Asha thought.  The trees hate us all, deep in their wooden hearts.

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These trees will kill us if they can.

 

[Lost Melnibonean]

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And from King’s Landing came only silence as well. By now she had hoped that Brienne and Ser Cleos would have reached the city with their captive. It might even be that Brienne was on her way back, and the girls with her. Ser Cleos swore he would make the Imp send a raven once the trade was made. He swore it! Ravens did not always win through. Some bowman could have brought the bird down and roasted him for supper. The letter that would have set her heart at ease might even now be lying by the ashes of some campfire beside a pile of raven bones. 

Well, like the imagined raven, Cleos did not win through. A bowman brought him down. And Jaime talks about his bones with Genna much later. 

ETA

Since Robb first considered the Sansa Lannister issue before he left Riverrun, I suppose it is plausible, even likely that Robb discussed Jon Snow with Brynden Tully. 

[Lost Melnibonean]

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Ghost was gone when the wildlings led their horses from the cave. Did he understand about Castle Black? Jon took a breath of the crisp morning air and allowed himself to hope. The eastern sky was pink near the horizon and pale grey higher up. The Sword of the Morning still hung in the south, the bright white star in its hilt blazing like a diamond in the dawn, but the blacks and greys of the darkling forest were turning once again to greens and golds, reds and russets. And above the soldier pines and oaks and ash and sentinels stood the Wall, the ice pale and glimmering beneath the dust and dirt that pocked its surface.

Jon IV, Storm 30

The colors are just a description of the sunrise and a reminder that we are in autumn. The more interesting thing here is the Sword of the Morning constellation on the southern horizon, as seen north of the Wall. Forget for the moment that a 700-foot wall of ice should have blotted out the southern horizon from the view of a man (even if he is the special snowflake) standing on the ground just north of the Wall. Rather, concentrate on the shape of the constellation and the bright white star in its hilt blazing like a diamond in the dawn. It should be a cross with a very bright star at one end. Well, that is Crux, also known as the Southern Cross. The Southern Cross, of course, is a small, cross-shaped constellation, with a first-magnitude star (the brightest stars in the night sky), at its bottom end, called Alpha Crucis, also known as Acrux. The analogy is not perfect though. Acrux is at the end that would be the point of the sword, and in any event, it is a blue star. Gamma Crucis, also known as Gacrux is the star that would be the sword’s hilt, and Gacrux is red. The other problem is that the Southern Cross is not observable from north of the 26th parallel (South Florida).

That an ASOIAF constellation resembles one of our own should not be surprising since several celestial bodies described in ASOIAF mirror our own. The George had just given us a little more astronomy in Jon’s preceding chapter in Storm. . .

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So many stars, he thought as he trudged up the slope through pines and firs and ash. Maester Luwin had taught him his stars as a boy in Winterfell; he had learned the names of the twelve houses of heaven and the rulers of each; he could find the seven wanderers sacred to the Faith; he was old friends with the Ice Dragon, the Shadowcat, the Moonmaid, and the Sword of the Morning. All those he shared with Ygritte, but not some of the others. We look up at the same stars, and see such different things. The King's Crown was the Cradle, to hear her tell it; the Stallion was the Horned Lord; the red wanderer that septons preached was sacred to their Smith up here was called the Thief. And when the Thief was in the Moonmaid, that was a propitious time for a man to steal a woman, Ygritte insisted. "Like the night you stole me. The Thief was bright that night."

Jon III, Storm 26

The twelve houses of heaven correspond to the zodiac; the seven wanders correspond to the classical planets of antiquity (i.e., the Sun and Moon and the five planets visible to the naked eye, Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter, and Saturn), and the red wanderer corresponds to Mars. The Moonmaid most likely corresponds to Virgo since there is a whole bunch of astrology mumbo jumbo about when Mars is in Virgo.

The first mention of an “ice dragon” follows Bran’s realization that the old powers are real. He then asks Osha how to go north, and what he might find. Osha tells him to look for the Ice Dragon, and to chase the blue star in the rider's eye. (It should be noted that after this mention as the blue star in the rider’s eye, it is afterward referred to as the blue star in the dragon’s eye. Since Jon tells us later that the Wildings’s nomenclature for celestial bodies is slightly different than the nomenclature used south of the Wall, this is not necessarily an inconsistency.)

Thus, we learn that the Ice Dragon is a constellation, and that the blue star in the dragon’s eye is a pole star. Currently (more on that in a moment), the north pole star in our sky is Polaris in the constellation Ursa Minor, also known as the Little Dipper. Thus, it appears that the star in the dragon’s eye that points north corresponds to Polaris. But there are differences here too. Polaris is more white than blue, and Ursa Minor is a little bear, not a dragon. However, Ursa Minor is bordered by Draco, which is a dragon, in the north sky, and one of the stars in Draco is Thuban, which is more blue than white.

Now, here’s where it gets interesting: The Southern Cross was visible from the British Isles, Canada, Alaska, and Russia 10,000 years ago, and it will be visible from those regions again after another 15,000 years. This is due to the motion of the Earth called axial precession. This is the motion you see in a wobbling top as it starts to slow. The Earth’s axial precession takes about 26,000 years to complete.

Due to this axial precession, the north star 6,000 years ago was Thuban, a blue star in Draco! And while you might not have been able to see Acrux from Scotland 6,000 years ago, you would have been able to see it from England.

[Isobel Harper]

57 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Ghost was gone when the wildlings led their horses from the cave. Did he understand about Castle Black? Jon took a breath of the crisp morning air and allowed himself to hope. The eastern sky was pink near the horizon and pale grey higher up. The Sword of the Morning still hung in the south, the bright white star in its hilt blazing like a diamond in the dawn, but the blacks and greys of the darkling forest were turning once again to greens and golds, reds and russets. And above the soldier pines and oaks and ash and sentinels stood the Wall, the ice pale and glimmering beneath the dust and dirt that pocked its surface.

This reminds me of Sansa's "Loss of Innocence"/Snow Castle chapter.  (Storm, Sansa VII)

Dawn stole into her garden like a thief. The grey of the sky grew lighter still, and the trees and shrubs turned a dark green beneath their stoles of snow.

Dawn, as a sword, is both a phallic symbol like in the forging of Lightbringer and a means to create a child.  A Thief is a man that steals a woman, thereby marrying her.  Both Dawn (i.e. Sword of the Morning) and the Thief are also constellations.

In both Jon's chapter and in Sansa's chapter the grey is light grey, and the colors go from absolutes (black, white, and grey) to color.  Sansa sees the trees gaining dark green.  Jon sees the trees gaining greens, golds, reds and russets.

In these two chapters, there are also parallels in climbing a wall and bringing it down.  In Storm, Jon IV, Jon climbs the Wall with Ygritte and other wildlings.  In Storm, Sansa VII LF steps over the walls of "Winterfell."  In Jon IV, Ygritte weeps, saying that they never found the Horn of Winter.  There's a recent thread that theorizes that the "Horns of Winter" are direwolf howls, and that these "horns"/howling of direwolves will bring all of the Starks together.  Just like Ygritte who has no horn, Sansa has no wolf, her symbolic "horn."  Sansa is also no longer a "Winterfell Stark."  Robb disinherited her.  Ygritte says that without the horn, the wildlings cannot bring the Wall down without a fight.  Without Sansa's direwolf (the loss being a symbol that Sansa is no longer a "Winterfell Stark" and that she was disinherited), she cannot gain Winterfell without a fight, which is symbolized by Sweetrobin kicking down the walls of Winterfell "violently" during his seizure.

(I don't see this as foreshadowing of her fighting against other Starks, but rather that she can't liberate Winterfell from the Boltons without a fight/war.)

[Stout]

On 5/2/2016 at 0:09 PM, No One of Importance said:

I never noticed Asha's issues with trees (and I wonder if these moments are telling us something more significant):

 

I've often thought about the names of the pines ... sentinel, soldier ... sure seems to point to something.  I've been dying to know how a weirwood arrow effects the others and wights.  

I don't think that George will go all "tree herder" on the story, but I could imagine a massive windsheer conjured by Bran/Blood Raven that splinters the trees and sends shards into an army of them!

[Walda]

I wouldn't rule out Ents @Stout, although whether the trees are marshalled by weirwoods, children of the forest, Green Men of the Gods Eye, or all Blood Raven/Bran, I couldn't say. The trees definitely have a kind of sentience - eg. the sentinel that sheltered Will from the White Walkers, the Whispering Wood that sheltered Robb's army from Jaime Lannister's. That leaning Sentinel in the Godswood at Winterfell also appears to have grown that way on purpose.

What I first noticed tonight:

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Horses, mules, and donkeys were stabled in the western walls, elephants in the eastern. Dany had acquired three of those huge, queer beasts with her pyramid. They reminded her of hairless grey mammoths, though their tusks had been bobbed and gilded, and their eyes were sad.

(ADwD, Ch.43 Daenerys VII)

Where would Daenerys have seen a mammoth?

As far as we know, she has spent her life in the Free Cities and the Dothraki Sea. Did she see an illustration or read of them in the Songs and Tales of Westeros that Ser Jorah gave her as a bridal gift? Did they have a tale of the Long Night and the Last Hero wielding Dragonsteel against the Others and the Ice Spiders? Somehow I can't imagine Viserys or Ser Willem Darry telling her tales of mammoths.

[Lost Melnibonean]

33 minutes ago, Walda said:

I wouldn't rule out Ents @Stout, although whether the trees are marshalled by weirwoods, children of the forest, Green Men of the Gods Eye, or all Blood Raven/Bran, I couldn't say. The trees definitely have a kind of sentience - eg. the sentinel that sheltered Will from the White Walkers, the Whispering Wood that sheltered Robb's army from Jaime Lannister's. That leaning Sentinel in the Godswood at Winterfell also appears to have grown that way on purpose.

What I first noticed tonight:

Where would Daenerys have seen a mammoth?

As far as we know, she has spent her life in the Free Cities and the Dothraki Sea. Did she see an illustration or read of them in the Songs and Tales of Westeros that Ser Jorah gave her as a bridal gift? Did they have a tale of the Long Night and the Last Hero wielding Dragonsteel against the Others and the Ice Spiders? Somehow I can't imagine Viserys or Ser Willem Darry telling her tales of mammoths.

I'm sure she was referring to elephants since she said they were hairless and gray.

[Walda]

Yes, she was comparing the appearance of the elephants of Meereen to mammoths. How could she do that if she had never seen a mammoth, or even a picture of a mammoth? She described the elephants as if she had never known elephants to exist before, let alone seen one, and yet she knows of the existence of mammoths, and describes elephants to herself as 'like mammoths, only hairless and grey' (note she doesn't regard elephants as smaller than mammoths).

I'm wondering how elephants could be newer to her knowledge than mammoths. I would have thought she might have seen elephants (little white ones) in Volantis, or heard of them in her childhood (Viserys might have sought assistance in re-seizing his throne from the Old Blood of Valyria)

[Isobel Harper]

31 minutes ago, Walda said:

Yes, she was comparing the appearance of the elephants of Meereen to mammoths. How could she do that if she had never seen a mammoth, or even a picture of a mammoth? She described the elephants as if she had never known elephants to exist before, let alone seen one, and yet she knows of the existence of mammoths, and describes elephants to herself as 'like mammoths, only hairless and grey' (note she doesn't regard elephants as smaller than mammoths).

I'm wondering how elephants could be newer to her knowledge than mammoths. I would have thought she might have seen elephants (little white ones) in Volantis, or heard of them in her childhood (Viserys might have sought assistance in re-seizing his throne from the Old Blood of Valyria)

Yeah, the quote sounds like she is more familiar with mammoths than elephants.  As far as I know, mammoths are only present (or are so far mentioned as being present) in the North beyond the wall and on Ib.  Sure, Dany could have traveled to Ib with Viserys, but so too could she travel to Volantis, as you mentioned.

[Lost Melnibonean]

3 hours ago, Walda said:

Yes, she was comparing the appearance of the elephants of Meereen to mammoths. How could she do that if she had never seen a mammoth, or even a picture of a mammoth? She described the elephants as if she had never known elephants to exist before, let alone seen one, and yet she knows of the existence of mammoths, and describes elephants to herself as 'like mammoths, only hairless and grey' (note she doesn't regard elephants as smaller than mammoths).

I'm wondering how elephants could be newer to her knowledge than mammoths. I would have thought she might have seen elephants (little white ones) in Volantis, or heard of them in her childhood (Viserys might have sought assistance in re-seizing his throne from the Old Blood of Valyria)

I think she was using it as an expression, the same way she might call a whale a giant fish. 

[Lost Melnibonean]

Consider this...

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“Robert did all he did for love.” Water ran down Brienne’s legs and pooled beneath her feet. 

Jaime V, Storm 37

In light of this...

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“Jon, did you ever wonder why the men of the Night’s Watch take no wives and father no children?” Maester Aemon asked.

Jon shrugged. “No.” ...

“So they will not love,” the old man answered, “for love is the bane of honor, the death of duty.”

Jon VIII, Game 60

Compare this...

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“Robert did all he did for pride, a cunt, and a pretty face.” He made a fist … or would have, if he’d had a hand. Pain lanced up his arm, cruel as laughter.

Jaime V, Storm 37

To this...

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“No. Tywin mistrusted laughter. He heard too many people laughing at your grandsire.”

More than anything  else, the Lions of Casterly Rock are prideful. 

What queer descriptive comparisons. . .

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Roose Bolton's eyes were paler than stone, darker than milk, and his voice was spider soft.

Jaime V, Storm 37

Wow, I never noticed that the Alys-Arnolf Karstark plot was set up before the red wedding, but after Roose had already conspired to betray Robb, of course. . .

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Bolton gave a soft chuckle. "Harrion Karstark was captive here when we took the castle, did you know? I gave him all the Karhold men still with me and sent him off with Glover. I do hope nothing ill befell him at Duskendale . . . else Alys Karstark would be all that remains of Lord Rickard's progeny."

Jaime V, Storm 37

Wow, I never noticed that Vargo Hoat agreed to join Roose in exchange for Harrenal. . .

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"Lord Vargo abandoned House Lannister because I offered him Harrenhal, a reward a thousand times greater than any he could hope to have from Lord Tywin. As a stranger to Westeros, he did not know the prize was poisoned."

Jaime V, Storm 37

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Jaime felt almost sorry for Robb Stark. He won the war on the battlefield and lost it in a bedchamber, poor fool. "How does Lord Walder relish dining on trout in place of wolf?" he asked.

"Oh, trout makes for a tasty supper." Bolton lifted a pale finger toward his cupbearer. "Though my poor Elmar is bereft. He was to wed Arya Stark, but my good father of Frey had no choice but to break the betrothal when King Robb betrayed him."

"Is there word of Arya Stark?" Brienne leaned forward. "Lady Catelyn had feared that . . . is the girl still alive?"

"Oh, yes," said the Lord of the Dreadfort.

"You have certain knowledge of that, my lord?"

Roose Bolton shrugged. "Arya Stark was lost for a time, it was true, but now she has been found. I mean to see her returned safely to the north."

 

Jaime V, Storm 37

I wonder if this was a sly double entendre?

Have some meat...

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"My lady, has no one told you? Lannisters lie."

"Is that a slight on the honor of my House?" Jaime picked up the cheese knife with his good hand. "A rounded point, and dull," he said, sliding his thumb along the edge of the blade, "but it will go through your eye all the same." . . .

Lord Bolton's little smile paid another visit to his lips. "You speak boldly for a man who needs help to break his bread. My guards are all around us, I remind you."

. . .

"I'm a captive here, not a guest. Your goat cut off my hand. If you think some prunes will make me overlook that, you're bloody well mistaken."

That took Roose Bolton aback. "Perhaps I am. Perhaps I ought to make a wedding gift of you to Edmure Tully . . . or strike your head off, as your sister did for Eddard Stark."

"I would not advise it. Casterly Rock has a long memory."

"A thousand leagues of mountain, sea, and bog lie between my walls and your rock. Lannister enmity means little to Bolton."

"Lannister friendship could mean much." Jaime thought he knew the game they were playing now. But does the wench know as well? . . .

"I am not certain you are the sort of friends a wise man would want." Roose Bolton beckoned to the boy. "Elmar, carve our guests a slice off the roast."

*Brienne was served first, but made no move to eat. . . .

. . .

The big wench rose to her feet. "I serve Lady Stark."

. . .

"Sit down and eat, Brienne," Jaime urged, as Elmar placed a slice of roast before him, dark and bloody. "If Bolton meant to kill us, he wouldn't be wasting his precious prunes on us, at such peril to his bowels." He stared at the meat and realized there was no way to cut it, one-handed. . . .

Roose Bolton cut his meat methodically, the blood running across his plate. "Lady Brienne, will you sit if I tell you that I hope to send Ser Jaime on, just as you and Lady Stark desire?"

"I . . . you'd send us on?" The wench sounded wary, but she sat. "That is good, my lord."

"It is. However, Lord Vargo has created me one small . . . difficulty." He turned his pale eyes on Jaime. "Do you know why Hoat cut off your hand?"

. . .

"There are no Tarbecks or Reynes," said Jaime.

"My point precisely. Lord Vargo doubtless hoped that Lord Stannis would triumph at King's Landing, and thence confirm him in his possession of this castle in gratitude for his small part in the downfall of House Lannister." He gave a dry chuckle. "He knows little of Stannis Baratheon either, I fear. That one might have given him Harrenhal for his service . . . but he would have given him a noose for his crimes as well."

"A noose is kinder than what he'll get from my father."

"By now he has come to the same realization. With Stannis broken and Renly dead, only a Stark victory can save him from Lord Tywin's vengeance, but the chances of that grow perishingly slim."

. . .

"You'll forgive me if I don't mourn?"

"You have no pity for our wretched doomed goat? Ah, but the gods must . . . else why deliver you into his hands?" Bolton chewed another chunk of meat. "Karhold is smaller and meaner than Harrenhal, but it lies well beyond the reach of the lion's claws. Once wed to Alys Karstark, Hoat might be a lord in truth. If he could collect some gold from your father so much the better, but he would have delivered you to Lord Rickard no matter how much Lord Tywin paid. His price would be the maid, and safe refuge.

"But to sell you he must keep you, and the riverlands are full of those who would gladly steal you away. Glover and Tallhart were broken at Duskendale, but remnants of their host are still abroad, with the Mountain slaughtering the stragglers. A thousand Karstarks prowl the lands south and east of Riverrun, hunting you. Elsewhere are Darry men left lordless and lawless, packs of four-footed wolves, and the lightning lord's outlaw bands. Dondarrion would gladly hang you and the goat together from the same tree." The Lord of the Dreadfort sopped up some of the blood with a chunk of bread. "Harrenhal was the only place Lord Vargo could hope to hold you safe, but here his Brave Companions are much outnumbered by my own men, and by Ser Aenys and his Freys. No doubt he feared I might return you to Ser Edmure at Riverrun . . . or worse, send you on to your father.

"By maiming you, he meant to remove your sword as a threat, gain himself a grisly token to send to your father, and diminish your value to me. For he is my man, as I am King Robb's man. Thus his crime is mine, or may seem so in your father's eyes. And therein lies my . . . small difficulty." He gazed at Jaime, his pale eyes unblinking, expectant, chill.

I see. "You want me to absolve you of blame. To tell my father that this stump is no work of yours." Jaime laughed. "My lord, send me to Cersei, and I'll sing as sweet a song as you could want, of how gently you treated me." Any other answer, he knew, and Bolton would give him back to the goat. "Had I a hand, I'd write it out. How I was maimed by the sellsword my own father brought to Westeros, and saved by the noble Lord Bolton."

"I will trust to your word, ser."

There's something I don't often hear.

 

Jaime V, Storm 37

The meat symbolizes Robb Stark and Vargo Hoat. Roose is offering to kill Robb, whom Jaime wants dead but cannot kill himself now that he has lost his sword hand. As Roose makes the offer, he stabs the meat and eats it. As he explains Vargo’s predicament, he chews another bite, and then sops up the blood. When Jaime indicates that he will play Roose’s game, Roose says the one thing that is sure to motivate Jaime.

Oh, and notice the part I italicized for reference. . . Will those elements form the Blackfish’s army?

[Lost Melnibonean]

Quote

"It is a tax on whoring," said Tyrion, irritated all over again. And it was my bloody father's notion. "Only a penny for each, ah . . . act. The King's Hand felt it might help improve the morals of the city."

Tyrion V, Storm 38

So, the dwarf’s penny was really a product of Tywin’s shame.

Is this how Jon Snow will be revived?

Quote

"I have no magic, child. Only prayers. That first time, his lordship had a hole right through him and blood in his mouth, I knew there was no hope. So when his poor torn chest stopped moving, I gave him the good god's own kiss to send him on his way. I filled my mouth with fire and breathed the flames inside him, down his throat to lungs and heart and soul. The last kiss it is called, and many a time I saw the old priests bestow it on the Lord's servants as they died. I had given it a time or two myself, as all priests must. But never before had I felt a dead man shudder as the fire filled him, nor seen his eyes come open. It was not me who raised him, my lady. It was the Lord. R'hllor is not done with him yet. Life is warmth, and warmth is fire, and fire is God's and God's alone."

Arya VII, Storm 39

[Lost Melnibonean]

Quote

“I could shoe him for you,” said Gendry, all of a sudden. “I was only a ’prentice, but my master said my hand was made to hold a hammer. I can shoe horses, close up rents in mail, and beat the dents from plate. I bet I could make swords too.”

Heh.

[Walda]

Quote

It was a girl, but smaller than Arya, her skin dappled like a doe’s beneath a cloak of leaves. Her eyes were queer—large and liquid, gold and green, slitted like a cat’s eyes. No one has eyes like that.

(ADwD,Ch.13 Bran II)

So, the Children of the Forest are faceless men?

Not likely, but I like the Arya/Cat/No one reference anyway.