the dragon riders

[RobOsevens]

13 minutes ago, King Viserys Targaryen IV said:

1: Lots of things are not in the main series.. Until they are. There is plenty of time still, plus they have mention other dragons and the Dance of the Dragons.

2: OK, but there is also the concept of groundwork. What is the point of the World book and the other prequel novels, unless they are laying groundwork for the main series?

3: Yes, there will be a large Dragon by the end.

4: There are going to 3 heads of the Dragon. Doesn't the presence of the other 2 heads already make her less important?

5: The point of the Tyrion quote was not to show what Jon plan will be, but what GRRM's plan will be. Jon will struggle against the Others, after Daenerys hears about the boy claiming to be Rhaegar's son, who has his own dragon (therefor proving his Targaryen heritage) needs her help, she will rush to his side.

1. We are at atleast the halfway point if not further and there has been no mention of potentially any dragons alive besides Dany's. It will feel unearned and a cheap twist if Cannibal is napping on Skagos all this time.

2. The point of the world book is to flesh out the world and maybe have some fun easter eggs in the main series and enrich the experience for hardcore fans. Most people dont read the ancillary stuff so anything introduced there should not have a major impact in the mian series or it will be unearned and come out of left field for most people. Also to make more money of the phenomena that is a song of ice and fire.

3. Dany's dragons will get very large by the end of the series. Also that implies growth from their current size. Not referencing a sleeping full grown dragon.

4. Personally I think the 3 heads of the dragon means the person must be a Targ (their symbol is a 3 headed dragon) So Dany already is a 3 headed dragon.

5. I disagree about Jon getting or needing a dragon to prove his heritage and for that to be the reason Dany decides to help him. I think Dany would/will fight against the Others and attempt to save the 7K regardless of whether or not their is a Targ leading the effort against them

[Nictarion]

11 minutes ago, Lord Fauntleroy said:

Jon's story so far has had absolutely nothing to do with dragons. If you ask me there's a decent chance he may never ride one. I am pretty fond of Aegon getting one though, since it would lend credence to his legitimacy and be doubly meaningful if he is actually a Blackfyre. Then nobody would have cause to doubt his parentage, except us readers who may know better.

Except for the part where he wishes he had a dragon or 3 at the Wall. If only he had a connection to someone who could make that happen.

[Lost Melnibonean]

4 minutes ago, Nictarion said:

Except for the part where he wishes he had a dragon or 3 at the Wall. If only he had a connection to someone who could make that happen.

You don't think the dragons will fight each other? 

[the tower of albion]

Three wargs three Dragons. Why else make so much of the Starks abilities to warg. The wolves will "ride" the dragons.

[King Viserys Targaryen IV]

29 minutes ago, the tower of albion said:

Three wargs three Dragons. Why else make so much of the Starks abilities to warg. The wolves will "ride" the dragons.

It is not a Stark ability, it looks like it is a Blackwood ability.

Bloodraven's mother was a Blackwood, The Stark kid's paternal great-great grandmother was a Blackwood.

Daenerys' paternal/maternal great grandmother was a Blackwood (then her grandparents and parents married brother/ sister)

Jon's Maternal great-great grandmother and his paternal great-great grandmother were Blackwoods. (Then his paternal great grandparents and grandparents married brother/ sister).

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Drogon. Dany rides Drogon then Dany dies and Jon takes Drogon. Mostly because Drogon is the only dragon who would be alive around the time of LN2.0.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

1 hour ago, King Viserys Targaryen IV said:

I am not sure what you are talking about. I am not saying that Jon goes looking for power and authority. It will be thrust on to him just like it always does.

I am simply saying that Tyrion's quote is absolutely not applicable in Jon's case.

Because, he won't be pushing his "claim" in contest to Dany's and he won't be begging for a dragon or anything else. As indicated by his interaction with Stannis, he will be calling out the powerful on their duty, that comes along with the crown. If kingship is "thrust on him" as you say, he won't need a bigger dragon to impress Dany or anyone else for that matter, since he won't be overly excited about it so that he'd feel compelled to protect his "supremacy".

In short, Jon is about what must be done, not about what he can pull off. And he does not -personally- need a dragon for that, if he can persuade those who have them to come join his cause.

[King Viserys Targaryen IV]

Just now, ShadowCat Rivers said:

I am simply saying that Tyrion's quote is absolutely not applicable in Jon's case.

Because, he won't be pushing his "claim" in contest to Dany's and he won't be begging for a dragon or anything else. As indicated by his interaction with Stannis, he will be calling out the powerful on their duty, that comes along with the crown. If kingship is "thrust on him" as you say, he won't need a bigger dragon to impress Dany or anyone else for that matter, since he won't be overly excited about it so that he'd feel compelled to protect his "supremacy".

In short, Jon is about what must be done, not about what he can pull off.

I am not saying that the quote will be Jon's plan, but that it will be GRRM's framework for what will happen.

Jon will be reborn/ wake as a Targaryen. He will find a dragon. The dragon will in turn prove that he is a Targaryen. Daenerys will come to his aid because 1: he needs help and 2: he is a proven Targaryen.

And it is not about Jon having the biggest dragon or some other macho bullshit like that. What it is about is Jon having his own dragon and not one of Daenerys' dragons.

A living dragon from before the Dance of the Dragons is the only real way for that to happen. It is too late for an egg to hatch, as it would not be nearly big enough to make a difference now, and at this point not even Drogon could carry Jon on his back.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

4 minutes ago, King Viserys Targaryen IV said:

I am not saying that the quote will be Jon's plan, but that it will be GRRM's framework for what will happen. (1)

Jon will be reborn/ wake as a Targaryen. He will find a dragon. The dragon will in turn prove that he is a Targaryen. Daenerys will come to his aid because 1: he needs help and 2: he is a proven Targaryen. (2)

And it is not about Jon having the biggest dragon or some other macho bullshit like that. What it is about is Jon having his own dragon and not one of Daenerys' dragons. (3)

(1) The framework, as you call it, contours a very specific context that's all about the "game of thrones". Nothing to do with Jon.

(2) None of those qualifies as a "will". At best, it's a "might". For most of those I don't see the necessity in either plot or character developement terms. I certainly disagree on your second reason for Daenerys' motives to come to aid. I don't particularly like her, yet I have a difficulty to see a case where the world is comming down and she doesn't get her ass moving because Jon is not, or not a proven, Targaryen.

(3) And why exactly is this even necessary? Dany's two remaining dragons need two riders in order to be useful, and it's not like we are supposed to take away that there are plenty of candidates to choose from. Why shouldn't Jon ride one of Dany's, if he has what it takes to be a rider?

[RobOsevens]

12 minutes ago, King Viserys Targaryen IV said:

I am not saying that the quote will be Jon's plan, but that it will be GRRM's framework for what will happen.

Jon will be reborn/ wake as a Targaryen. He will find a dragon. The dragon will in turn prove that he is a Targaryen. Daenerys will come to his aid because 1: he needs help and 2: he is a proven Targaryen.

And it is not about Jon having the biggest dragon or some other macho bullshit like that. What it is about is Jon having his own dragon and not one of Daenerys' dragons.

A living dragon from before the Dance of the Dragons is the only real way for that to happen. It is too late for an egg to hatch, as it would not be nearly big enough to make a difference now, and at this point not even Drogon could carry Jon on his back.

If Jon comes back with knowledge about his heritage and he is a Targ it doesnt mean he is going to think he is the rightful king. Jon will still be Jon his character is not going to completely change. 

Jon will be in a position of strength not because finds some random dragon but because he is a leader that men will follow. The wildlings already respect him and will follow him. Returning from the dead may bring more followers. Waking up from the dead and saying he is a Targ will not gain him followers in the North. He will lead because men need a leader in the crisis the North is facing, people will rally to him because he does what needs to be done and because of his Stark heritage. 

He does not need a dragon for Dany to come to his aid. She has already been helping people and they dont have dragons, they are in need. Who better to bring dragon aid to then someone fighting ice monsters? At that time he may ride one of Dany's dragons and possibly reveal himself as a Targ to Dany.

If Jon rides / bonds with a dragon then it will be his own. Why does he need one not birthed by Dany?

[tallTale]

Being jon is part Stark and part Targ, wouldn't that make him the only person able to warg a dragon? 

[Jon's Queen Consort]

2 minutes ago, tallTale said:

Being jon is part Stark and part Targ, wouldn't that make him the only person able to warg a dragon? 

I don' think so. If the warging is a Blackwood think, which I disagree with I believe that is a First men thing, all the Starks alng with Dany can warg a dragon.

[The Fattest Leech]

6 minutes ago, tallTale said:

Being jon is part Stark and part Targ, wouldn't that make him the only person able to warg a dragon? 

(Ducking to avoid the rotten tomotoes about to be thrown) I don't know that dragons can be warged. Aside from it seeming like cheating, a dragon has the mental acumen  and are selective enough that they have to first select a rider to bond with. 

[aryagonnakill#2]

1 hour ago, King Viserys Targaryen IV said:

It is not a Stark ability, it looks like it is a Blackwood ability.

Bloodraven's mother was a Blackwood, The Stark kid's paternal great-great grandmother was a Blackwood.

Daenerys' paternal/maternal great grandmother was a Blackwood (then her grandparents and parents married brother/ sister)

Jon's Maternal great-great grandmother and his paternal great-great grandmother were Blackwoods. (Then his paternal great grandparents and grandparents married brother/ sister).

Given that the Starks of old all had Direwolves, and a Stark king took the daughters of the Warg King, it seems likely that the Starks have been able to warg for a long time, perhaps they only needed a wolf to bond with to unlock it.

[RobOsevens]

8 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

(Ducking to avoid the rotten tomotoes about to be thrown) I don't know that dragons can be warged. Aside from it seeming like cheating, a dragon has the mental acumen  and are selective enough that they have to first select a rider to bond with. 

Or they may even be like cats(?) in that they are very difficult to warg. Dragons would be difficult for different reasons than cats but they may be much more difficult to warg.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

12 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

(Ducking to avoid the rotten tomotoes about to be thrown) I don't know that dragons can be warged. Aside from it seeming like cheating, a dragon has the mental acumen  and are selective enough that they have to first select a rider to bond with. 

No more than Hodor.

He may be simple, but he's still human and of way greater mental capacity than any animal we've seen. it's not like dragons are presented like dolphin-type intelligence or something. GRRM has said that they are like dogs in this aspect.

My take is that warging will be a way to bond, but we'll see.

------------------

As for the Blackwood thing, does it even matter which side of the family the skinchanging capacity comes from? Whoever they inherited it from, the fact is that the Stark children have it, along with several wildlings. We don't have any indication that any other Blackwood descendant has it, including Dany who has a POV to inform us if she did. I seriously doubt that she's going to develop it in the future. I also seriously doubt that this Hoster guy, or any other Blackwood for that matter, will be of any more importance in the future because of the Blackwood skinchanging gene.

[King Viserys Targaryen IV]

1 hour ago, ShadowCat Rivers said:

(1) The framework, as you call it, contours a very specific context that's all about the "game of thrones". Nothing to do with Jon.

(2) None of those qualifies as a "will". At best, it's a "might". For most of those I don't see the necessity in either plot or character developement terms. I certainly disagree on your second reason for Daenerys' motives to come to aid. I don't particularly like her, yet I have a difficulty to see a case where the world is comming down and she doesn't get her ass moving because Jon is not, or not a proven, Targaryen.

(3) And why exactly is this even necessary? Dany's two remaining dragons need two riders in order to be useful, and it's not like we are supposed to take away that there are plenty of candidates to choose from. Why shouldn't Jon ride one of Dany's, if he has what it takes to be a rider?

Yes, Tyrion's quote to fAegon is about fAegon getting throne, but it is also in larger terms about fAegon marrying Daenerys and uniting the Targaryen House. If you zoom out and look at the grander scale it could be seen as foreshadowing of what GRRM has planned for the story. If he does indeed mean for Jon and Daenerys to end up together, then as Tyrion pointed out, Daenerys is not going to be attracted to someone who is weak and not in a position of leverage. Jon can not come forward with a beggar bowl.

I am not saying that Jon will approach Daenerys in that manner, but that the story will bring them togther at a point that Jon will have an army of followers and a Dragon, but will also need help in the battle for the dawn.

As far as Daenerys coming to aid Jon even if he is not a Targaryen, no one else in the series takes what is happening up North seriously, why would Daenerys and her people? They will only have hersay and rumor to go on. Wild stories about monsters and grumkins. No one else seems to be worried.

 Now if she hears about a Dragon and Rhaegar's son?

 

GRRM loves to play the slight of hand game. Look at what he did with Robb. Here is the heroic boy King going to avenge his father, then wham he is dead. Leaving Jon to be the hero

Well, here is the green dragon, named after the romantic hero Prince, then boom he is dead. Then Jon finds a new third dragon.

58 minutes ago, RobOsevens said:

If Jon comes back with knowledge about his heritage and he is a Targ it doesnt mean he is going to think he is the rightful king. Jon will still be Jon his character is not going to completely change. 

Jon will be in a position of strength not because finds some random dragon but because he is a leader that men will follow. The wildlings already respect him and will follow him. Returning from the dead may bring more followers. Waking up from the dead and saying he is a Targ will not gain him followers in the North. He will lead because men need a leader in the crisis the North is facing, people will rally to him because he does what needs to be done and because of his Stark heritage. 

He does not need a dragon for Dany to come to his aid. She has already been helping people and they dont have dragons, they are in need. Who better to bring dragon aid to then someone fighting ice monsters? At that time he may ride one of Dany's dragons and possibly reveal himself as a Targ to Dany.

If Jon rides / bonds with a dragon then it will be his own. Why does he need one not birthed by Dany?

I never said Jon becoming a Targaryen will make him want to be a King. He will not seek the Throne, he will only seek a way to defeat the Others. In the end, the Crown will be thrust upon him.

And I never said becoming a Targaryen will gain him followers in the North, being Robb's heir will do that.

Why would Daenerys believe what is happening in the North, when no one else does? A Targaryen with a Dragon? That is something she would go check out.

Jon does not need to have a dragon that is not Daenerys, that is just the foreshadowing that GRRM has set up. He has foreshadowed Jon waking a dragon on Skagos, and connected a muddy dragon to Jon. Plus it fits with the way that he sets up stories (killing a character who looks like they are important, only to find another one. See Robb)

[RobOsevens]

3 minutes ago, ShadowCat Rivers said:

No more than Hodor.

He may be simple, but he's still human and of way greater mental capacity than any animal we've seen. it's not like dragons are presented like dolphin-type intelligence or something. GRRM has said that they are like dogs in this aspect.

My take is that warging will be a way to bond, but we'll see.

------------------

As for the Blackwood thing, does it even matter which side of the family the skinchanging capacity comes from? Whoever they inherited it from, the fact is that the Stark children have it, along with several wildlings. We don't have any indication that any other Blackwood decendant has it, including Dany who has a POV to inform us if she did. I seriously doubt that she's going to develop it in the future. I also seriously doubt that this Hoster guy, or any other Blackwood for that matter, will be of any more importance in the future because of the Blackwood skinchanging gene.

The direwolves are clearly intelligent idk about in comparison to Hodor. As for the dragons I think theyd be ahrder to warg not because of smarts per se but because as Varamyr says some animals are more difficult than others.

The Blackwood thing (if it is the reason for the warging) is more of a fun easter egg from the ancillary stuff than anything that will really impact the story, imo.

[King Viserys Targaryen IV]

15 minutes ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

Given that the Starks of old all had Direwolves, and a Stark king took the daughters of the Warg King, it seems likely that the Starks have been able to warg for a long time, perhaps they only needed a wolf to bond with to unlock it.

Having a pet Direwolf and warging one are two different things.

And maybe it is a combination of the right bloodlines Blackwood & Stark or Blackwood and Targaryen...

All I know is that Bloodraven is a powerful warg and he is not a Stark, but is a Blackwood.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

1 minute ago, RobOsevens said:

The direwolves are clearly intelligent idk about in comparison to Hodor. As for the dragons I think theyd be ahrder to warg not because of smarts per se but because as Varamyr says some animals are more difficult than others.

The Blackwood thing (if it is the reason for the warging) is more of a fun easter egg from the ancillary stuff than anything that will really impact the story, imo.

Hodor can understand and follow much more complex orders and shows a, well, human level of adaptation to situations instead of simply follow natural instincts. He's clearly much more intelligent than any animal we;ve seen, no question and no comparaison, really.

Dragons may be harder to skinchange due to being wild beasts with a propensity for independence, but they are also capable of forming bonds. So it can go either way, we'll see if/when a characters tries to bond with one via skinchanging. Though, there are numerous clues that Bran will successfully bond with one. 

I agree about the easter egg thing.