the dragon riders

RobOsevens · March 8, 2016

2 minutes ago, King Viserys Targaryen IV said:

I never said Jon becoming a Targaryen will make him want to be a King. He will not seek the Throne, he will only seek a way to defeat the Others. In the end, the Crown will be thrust upon him.

And I never said becoming a Targaryen will gain him followers in the North, being Robb's heir will do that.

Why would Daenerys believe what is happening in the North, when no one else does? A Targaryen with a Dragon? That is something she would go check out.

Jon does not need to have a dragon that is not Daenerys, that is just the foreshadowing that GRRM has set up. He has foreshadowed Jon waking a dragon on Skagos, and connected a muddy dragon to Jon. Plus it fits with the way that he sets up stories (killing a character who looks like they are important, only to find another one. See Robb)

The situation in the North is going to get a lot worse before Dany arrives so who knows what people will know or believe by the time Dany arrives and/or after she deals with Aegon. By that time people may know that the Others have returned or that the North is overrun. That could be reason enough for Dany to go North to protect/unify her 7K.

We already have dragons woken from stone. Maybe Jon somehow ends up on Skagos before he comes back to life and when he comes back he knows R+L = J so we have another dragon from stone. Idk why that is more out there than other dragons showing up that are full grown and not any mention in main series

ShadowCat Rivers · March 8, 2016

11 minutes ago, King Viserys Targaryen IV said:

Yes, Tyrion's quote to fAegon is about fAegon getting throne, but it is also in larger terms about fAegon marrying Daenerys and uniting the Targaryen House. If you zoom out and look at the grander scale it could be seen as foreshadowing of what GRRM has planned for the story. If he does indeed mean for Jon and Daenerys to end up together, then as Tyrion pointed out, Daenerys is not going to be attracted to someone who is weak and not in a position of leverage. Jon can not come forward with a beggar bowl. (1)

I am not saying that Jon will approach Daenerys in that manner, but that the story will bring them togther at a point that Jon will have an army of followers and a Dragon, but will also need help in the battle for the dawn. (2)

As far as Daenerys coming to aid Jon even if he is not a Targaryen, no one else in the series takes what is happening up North seriously, why would Daenerys and her people? They will only have hersay and rumor to go on. Wild stories about monsters and grumkins. No one else seems to be worried. (3)

(1) There's no indication of such an intent, if anything there is an indication of a contradictory intent. Even so, having a following and multiple political links via his Stark side would certainly do. And in the end, if that's the author's intent, he can make Dany the top dog of this relationship. I don't see why Jon "can't" - if he "can't", he can simply refuse, I guess.

(2) I see nothing that would point to such a development, actually it seems to me more like a reader's with than a realistic estimation of where the plot points are converging to. I meam the story will bring them together, I also expect that, but nothing in-text suggests that Jon will have another dragon by then.

(3) Stannis did, I expect (and "require") no less from anyone who has visions, magic, Tyrion, (most likely) the son of the former LC of the NW, and Marwyn alongside her.

The Fattest Leech · March 8, 2016

27 minutes ago, RobOsevens said:

Or they may even be like cats(?) in that they are very difficult to warg. Dragons would be difficult for different reasons than cats but they may be much more difficult to warg.

I am supposed to be working right now so I have to hide to type this. Pardon any typos.

I Dont think dragons are dolphin smart as someone just mentioned. They probably can't do your taxes either. But they have a level if intelligence that allows them to maintain their own set of ideals and chose who to bond with.

They have shown they are not like iguanas kept in a cage either. At one point when Quentyn went into the pit to try and release them, they look for Dany, assess the situation and burn people they don't like.

The cat thing is a good comparison and they probably go just beyond that as well.

The Fattest Leech · March 8, 2016

27 minutes ago, RobOsevens said:

Or they may even be like cats(?) in that they are very difficult to warg. Dragons would be difficult for different reasons than cats but they may be much more difficult to warg.

I am supposed to be working right now so I have to hide to type this. Pardon any typos.

I Dont think dragons are dolphin smart as someone just mentioned. They probably can't do your taxes either. But they have a level if intelligence that allows them to maintain their own set of ideals and chose who to bond with.

They have shown they are not like iguanas kept in a cage either. At one point when Quentyn went into the pit to try and release them, they look for Dany, assess the situation and burn people they don't like.

The cat thing is a good comparison and they probably go just beyond that as well.

King Viserys Targaryen IV · March 8, 2016

1 hour ago, ShadowCat Rivers said:

(1) There's no indication of such an intent, if anything there is an indication of a contradictory intent. Even so, having a following and multiple political links via his Stark side would certainly do. And in the end, if that's the author's intent, he can make Dany the top dog of this relationship. I don't see why Jon "can't" - if he "can't", he can simply refuse, I guess.

(2) I see nothing that would point to such a development, actually it seems to me more like a reader's with than a realistic estimation of where the plot points are converging to. I meam the story will bring them together, I also expect that, but nothing in-text suggests that Jon will have another dragon by then.

(3) Stannis did, I expect (and "require") no less from anyone who has visions, magic, Tyrion, (most likely) the son of the former LC of the NW, and Marwyn alongside her.

1: You dont think there is there is at least foreshadowing of Jon and Daenerys together? The Three heads of the Dragon, blue flower in the Wall, Daenery's younger more comely dream lover, Val's hair being silver in the moonlight, etc....

Daenerys as top dog? OK. I have no problem with that, it is just that Jon is not going to be powerless like some paramount. He will be in the relationship and on the throne (just like Daenerys) because he holds power and has the birthright.

2: You mean other than these:

"The smoke and ash clouded his eyes, and in the sky he saw a great winged snake whose roar was a river of flame. He bared his teeth, but then the snake was gone. Behind the cliffs tall fires were eating up the stars."

"He had to get down on his knees to gather up the books he'd dropped. I should not have brought so many, he told himself as he brushed the dirt off Colloquo Votar's Jade Compendium, a thick volume of tales and legends from the east that Maester Aemon had commanded him to find. The book appeared undamaged. Maester Thomax's Dragonkin, Being a History of House Targaryen from Exile to Apotheosis, with a Consideration of the Life and Death of Dragons had not been so fortunate. It had come open as it fell, and a few pages had gotten muddy, including one with a rather nice picture of Balerion the Black Dread done in colored inks."

3: Stannis did not come to the Wall to fight the Others, he came to fight the Wildlings.

ShadowCat Rivers · March 8, 2016

22 minutes ago, King Viserys Targaryen IV said:

1: You dont think there is there is at least foreshadowing of Jon and Daenerys together? The Three heads of the Dragon, blue flower in the Wall, Daenery's younger more comely dream lover, Val's hair being silver in the moonlight, etc....

Daenerys as top dog? OK. I have no problem with that, it is just that Jon is not going to be powerless like some paramount. He will be in the relationship and on the throne (just like Daenerys) because he holds power and has the birthright.

2: You mean other than these:

"The smoke and ash clouded his eyes, and in the sky he saw a great winged snake whose roar was a river of flame. He bared his teeth, but then the snake was gone. Behind the cliffs tall fires were eating up the stars."

"He had to get down on his knees to gather up the books he'd dropped. I should not have brought so many, he told himself as he brushed the dirt off Colloquo Votar's Jade Compendium, a thick volume of tales and legends from the east that Maester Aemon had commanded him to find. The book appeared undamaged. Maester Thomax's Dragonkin, Being a History of House Targaryen from Exile to Apotheosis, with a Consideration of the Life and Death of Dragons had not been so fortunate. It had come open as it fell, and a few pages had gotten muddy, including one with a rather nice picture of Balerion the Black Dread done in colored inks."

3: Stannis did not come to the Wall to fight the Others, he came to fight the Wildlings.

1: First, no, I don't think it's foreshadowing for them together. Some of it is foreshadowing of them meeting and have an impact on each other, not necessarily that way though. Some of it is irrelevent. Dany's vision lover is Euron, for examble. Val's hair is the search function sort of "foreshadowing". Not that it can't be done, the author can pull it off if he choses to take that path, but no way this is the "since always" designed and built for outcome. Second, I agree it can be as you say, but he does not need another dragon for that. As I said in the previous post, his own following and his political connections should do.

2. Sorry, but those are not, but at all, hinting at Jon getting another dragon. Not even connected to Jon directly - the only way that they can be about him is as a hint for his parentage. A figurative dragon and a picture of an historical dead dragon pointing at something like another historical dragon being alive and getting to connect with a certain present-time character, I can't see what you are infering it from. Zero relevence, IMO.

3. Stannis responded to the Watch'es call for help, because that was his duty to the realm he aspired to rule. Plus, he was aware about the "Other" enemy, that's clear enough, but it's of little importance here - the point is that he did his duty and I expect no less from other "serious" (meaning end-game) contenders.

Lord Varys · March 8, 2016

Jon Who? is right now ill-suited to ever lay claim to the Iron Throne simply because pretty much no one outside the North even knows or cares that he exists.

Only if the Others become a major threat that is felt in the South might some people consider thanking him for his part in defeating them - assuming they know, believe, or care that he was crucial in this. If he never leaves the Wall he could singlehandedly slay every Other and wight but the majority of the lords and people still won't care. Nobody cares about the Night's Watch - George went to great lengths to establish that.

Jon as rival to Daenerys Targaryen is also not going to work. The name of the woman is already known from Asshai to King's Landing, and if she arrives in Westeros on Drogon's back she'll become as famous and legendary as Aegon the Conqueror himself. Even if Jon also ends up with a dragon, it will most likely be one of Dany's dragons, making him profit from her generosity. Dany's own potentially prophetic dream suggests that she'll lead the final battle against the Others - whether she'll survive that isn't clear, of course, but if she does she'll become unquestioned ruler of Westeros.

Jon Snow could be included into the restored Targaryen dynasty as her nephew-consort, chosen heir, and father of her children - and if he is formally recognized as Rhaegar's son by her and presented to the Realm and her people as such he could easily take the crown in his own right should Daenerys die.

But the chance for Jon Snow to actually challenge the claim of his aunt - or ending up being chosen as king by popular vote because he has proven his worth with his deeds - isn't very realistic.

Especially not if the Others become a serious threat to the entire Realm and not just to the North and the Wall. If the Wall is destroyed and/or if the Others/wights invade the North and march down south then Jon/his people will have to make a tactical retreat. Even if Jon Snow becomes the greatest leader Westeros has ever seen he will inevitably lack the means to actually defeat the Others (unless George will completely botch the ending by cutting Dany, her people, and the dragons out of the final battle), and this will further weaken whatever claim he has. It is well and good to have some great resistance fighter, but if the guy fails to win the war all by himself and has to make deals and accept outside help then a majority of the people will follow that person, not the guy they followed at first.

Just compare it Tyrion - he saw to the defenses of KL and protected the people as long and as best he could but the credit for 'saving the city' went to Tywin, the Tyrells, and 'Renly's ghost' rather than Tyrion. A similar thing could easily happen in the fight against the Others.

More importantly, only if there will be united Westerosi front against the Others led by Jon Snow will there be any chance that he will be considered a viable claimant to the throne or an important war leader. Right now there are tons of other people left who control more assets and people than Jon Snow realistically ever will and once the threat of the Others is believed in the South those people will, most likely, claim a leadership in the war. They won't just hand over power to some crow coming down from the Wall.

Not to mention that the idea that we are going to see Jon Snow in some sort of Christian Bale-like version of John Connor in the dreadful fourth 'Terminator' movie doesn't make much sense to me. If there is anything special to his blood and destiny that will be intricately interwoven with the actual fight against the Others - and that will not necessarily be a war that is won by some well-known general but may rather be dependent on some special secret missions and the like.

The idea that Jon Snow will have time to (inadvertently) build up his public image while fighting a (seemingly) doomed war doesn't sound right to me.

Especially not if there are only two books left.

As to the dragonriders:

I don't see Jon Snow ever riding Drogon unless Dany dies prematurely. The color symbolism doesn't support that, either. Dany is the only 'pureborn' Targaryen left, and Drogon is black-and-red, the Targaryen colors. Not to mention that he bears the name of Dany's first husband, Khal Drogo.

One of the other dragon could have multiple riders before he ends up with Jon. If Tyrion becomes a dragonrider that dragon will most likely remain his until the end of the series since I doubt that Tyrion is going to die at all (or if he is then he'll die only at the very end of the series).

If Dragonbinder can be used to steal a dragon then one of the dragons could be taken away from his rightful owner only to be eventually restored to him or her. If that's the case then even Tyrion and Dany could temporarily lose their dragons to somebody else.

Lady Blizzardborn · March 9, 2016

11 hours ago, Danelle said:

While I don't disagree with that theory, I would be dissapointed if Aegon gets to ride a dragon. A character introduced in the 5th book, who barely has interacted with any of the major characters or has barely affected the course of events, all of a sudden becomes a dragon rider?

I always regarded Aegon to be a character, whose aim is to divert the attention of the westerosi from really important events.

Aegon has Targaryen blood (of one kind or another), which by default puts him in the pool for potential dragonriders. And GRRM has said we will have another Dance of the Dragons. It would be really disappointing if Dance 2.0 doesn't have any battles between dragonriders. Aegon will definitely be in the second Dance, but we don't know yet whether he will be against Dany or if they will temporarily team up to battle someone who threatens them both (like Euron, or a hidden Blackfyre).

I disagree on his purpose. I think the reasons he exists are 1) as a PSA about not hiring unreliable goons who may accidentally kill the mark's stunt double; and more importantly 2) for the other characters to react to him. If I may elaborate on point 2... How everybody lines up for or against Aegon will be telling, particularly where the Martells (of whom we know little in comparison to other characters) are concerned. Dany's decision to accept Aegon as her nephew or denounce him as a fraud is a biggie. And when Aegon dies--as I am 99% certain he will--how people react to that will make for some serious drama. Imagine if Dany kills him and then finds out he really was her brother's son. Maybe next time someone claims that there's still a Rhaegar Jr running around she'll be a bit more open-minded about it? JonCon too. If he finds out Aegon was a fake, but hears that Lyanna Stark bore Rhaegar a son, he's going to high-tail it to wherever Jon Snow is. Then there's Uncle Doran. What if he chooses the wrong team? He could side with Dragon Girl, only to find that he helped to kill his sister's son, or he could side with Aegon and then find out he's been duped. Granted Doran may not live long enough to learn the answer to the riddle of the kid's identity, but we have Arianne for this as well. If her father dies as a result of her choice in whether or not to support Aegon, she may never forgive herself.

Drama is the name of the game. LF and Varys also will be fun to watch with this. Will LF try to "steal" Aegon from the Spider? Will Varys have to kill Aegon when he develops the Targaryen madness? There's oodles of fun to be had with this kid!

WolfOfWinter · March 9, 2016

I think the dragons' involvement in the Long Night is overrated and hyped by people who really want their favorite character to get their own personal dragon. That's not to say there isn't in any textual evidence that this might come into fruition, but I'm just annoyed by the idea that all the fan favorites will team up and get a dragon each because they're all so very special. I think it'd make for a better story if the dragon riders were to face off against each other. I especially like the thought of a second DotD where fAegon gets a dragon as well, both so he and Dany are more on equal footing, and because it'd sow even more doubt that he's a fake. The thought of a straight-up villain like Euron getting his hands on a dragon is preferable to Tyrion of all people getting one too.

I also think there's a reason there are at least half a dozen different ways to kill dragons included in the books, and that it means we're going to see some of the protagonists face off against dragons. Dragons and Others being two different sides of the same destructive coin rather than dragon riders = good and Others = evil seems like better storytelling to me.

Of course this is all subjective and plenty of people feel differently.

I can't help but wonder, though, how effective teenage dragons will be during the Long Night, when the dragon riders are hundreds of feet up in the air in complete darkness and cold. Or how a dragon will fare in a snowstorm.

ShadowCat Rivers · March 9, 2016

2 hours ago, WolfOfWinter said:

I think the dragons' involvement in the Long Night is overrated and hyped by people who really want their favorite character to get their own personal dragon. That's not to say there isn't in any textual evidence that this might come into fruition, but I'm just annoyed by the idea that all the fan favorites will team up and get a dragon each because they're all so very specially. I think it'd make for a better story if the dragon riders were to face off against each other. I especially like the thought of a second DotD where fAegon gets a dragon as well, both so he and Dany are more on equal footing, and because it'd sow even more doubt that he's a fake. The thought of a straight-up villain like Euron getting his hands on a dragon is preferable to Tyrion of all people getting one too.

I also think there's a reason there are at least half a dozen different ways to kill dragons included in the books, and that it means we're going to see some of the protagonists face off against dragons. Dragons and Others being two different sides of the same destructive coin rather than dragon riders = good and Others = evil seems like better storytelling to me.

Of course this is all subjective and plenty of people feel differently.

I can't help but wonder, though, how effective teenage dragons will be during the Long Night, when the dragon riders are hundreds of feet up in the air in complete darkness and cold. Or how a dragon will fare in a snow storm.

I agree with most of this. Particularly in that the dragons will suffer serious "down time" in winter wether conditions. They will be great assets but far from the ultimate solution in the fight against the Others. If not for any other reason, because it would render the last act of the story entirely anticlimatic.

chrisdaw · March 9, 2016

Significance of the dragon(s) in the war for the dawn is that they can fly to the heart of winter, whatever it is it's deep deep North and by dragon is probably the only way anyone is getting there.

Rhaegal is Aegons. It may then pass to Jon, if it survives Aegon. Even if it doesn't, Jon/Bran may be able to wight it back, giving us an ice dragon.

Viserion is for Tyrion, probably after some shenanigans by either the Ironborn or Ben. Foreshadowing suggests Tyrion becomes the rider during or as a result of a naval battle at the gullet in the Narrow sea. I think Viserion might die before the war for the dawn.

Drogon is all Dany's, whether it is or is not the only dragon come the war for the dawn I think Dany on Drogon is the only one going to the heart of winter.

Danelle · March 9, 2016

18 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Aegon is the antagonist to Daenerys as the protagonist in the second of ASOIAF's three parts.

I see. We just have a different approach to Aegon.

I don't consider him to be Dany's antagonist but merely a pawn of Varys, who is probably an antagonist to Dany, although his affiliations might change, it depends on the course of the events. He is introduced too late in the story to have an actual impact.

In the text, Aegon does not seem to consider Dany a rival.

Quote

Aegon's mouth twisted in fury. "I will not come to my aunt a beggar. I will come to her a kinsman, with an army."

Quote

"I have," the lad insisted. "Why should I go running to my aunt as if I were a beggar? My claim is better than her own. Let her come to me … in Westeros."

Quote

"It is," Aegon replied eagerly. "If my aunt wants Meereen, she's welcome to it. I will claim the Iron Throne by myself, with your swords and your allegiance. Move fast and strike hard, and we can win some easy victories before the Lannisters even know that we have landed. That will bring others to our cause."

I believe that it is likely that the roles of Aegon and Dany will be reversed.

If the original plan of Varys and Illyrio was to have the dothrakis invading Westeros in the name of House Targaryen, attempting to win the throne for Viserys Targaryen, create havoc in the continent, further destabilise the fragile alliances between the Starks, Baratheons, Martells, Lannisters and Tyrells and then when nobody trusts anyone, Rhaegar's son returns to set things right and prove that he is by far more able to rule Westeros than the Lannisters/Starks/Baratheons and also his uncle Viserys.

It is possible that by the time Daenerys will return to Westeros, Aegon might be already dead amidst the chaos that will ensue, especialy following the Lannister-Tyrell conflict. Even if Daenerys meets Aegon, I think it is more possible for her to fight him, than allow him to ride her dragons.

Unless of course, Aegon, decides to steal one of her dragons or attempt to tame one, without Dany's consent, which is very risky.

o, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Drama is the name of the game. LF and Varys also will be fun to watch with this. Will LF try to "steal" Aegon from the Spider? Will Varys have to kill Aegon when he develops the Targaryen madness? There's oodles of fun to be had with this kid!

Well, the thing for me is that by the time WOW will be published, we will already need to find how the story will develop for the following main characters:

Jon
Sansa
Tyrion
Dany
Arya
Jaime
Cersei
Margaery
Stannis
Davos
Arianne
Melisandre
Barristan
SAM
Brienne
Roose
Theon

And I am not including other minor characters, which might prove very importantt, such as Loras, Mance, Walder Frey, Asha, Green Grace, Illyrio, Willas, Tormund and so many others. It is not as if Aegon brings something new to the story.

I am not suggesting that Aegon is unimportant, but for reasons that pertaint to narrative balance, I find the possibility of Aegon arising to a character of outmost importance at this point of the story, very unlikely. Two books are left to finish the story, having Dany miracously bringing the dragons back, struggling to raise them, Jon trying to confront his place in westerosi society (not to mention the various hints to his Targaryen ancestry), Tyrion, Bran or Vic, who are occassionally considered to be the 3rd dragon rider, have also struggled to achieve their goals, becoming dragon riders or at least controllong the dragons is believable and intriguing in terms of character development.

Having a kid, who was barely mentioned in the previous novels and is introduced in DWD, riding a dragon only because he has Targaryen ancestry and a claim to the IT , is not an interesting turn of events, just a targ ex machina.

I can understand why the concept of an impostor, a pretender or an actual lost Targaryen might be appealing, especially in a story such as ASOIAF where Power resides where men believe it resides. But right now, for me, I think that it would be better if GRRM focused on resolving plots instead of expanding on new ones.

Endymion I Targaryen · March 9, 2016

Drogon goes with Daenerys definitely.

Tyrion will ride Viserion. He will do what Nettled did to get her dragon.

Rhaegal is in danger to be taken by Euron with the horn.

SevasTra82 · March 9, 2016

I'm still not convinced anyone will ever ride a dragon, other then Dany/Drogon.

ShadowCat Rivers · March 9, 2016

4 minutes ago, SevasTra82 said:

I'm still not convinced anyone will ever ride a dragon, other then Dany/Drogon.

That would make the other two sort of blank (Chekhov's) guns and rather too anticlimatic of an answer to the riders' question. If it was only Dany & Drogon the other two didn't need to exist at all.

SevasTra82 · March 9, 2016

1 hour ago, ShadowCat Rivers said:

That would make the other two sort of blank (Chekhov's) guns and rather too anticlimatic of an answer to the riders' question. If it was only Dany & Drogon the other two didn't need to exist at all.

Not necessarily. They could have a purpose that is unknown to us (as of yet). The whole "rider" theory stems from the idea from the "dragon must have 3 heads" prophecy that people go off of...so the conclusion is jumped to that their sole purpose is to have riders, which may not be the case.

I think it's entirely possible that the other two dragons end up going berserk and wrecking mayhem in Mereen, and possibly even Westeros. Instead of Dany going to conquer Westeros...she would end up saving it and become a conquering hero instead (in an ironic twist). After all, we are already starting to see signs that they are going out of control without Dany around. This probably won't end up happening, just an example.

GRRM has said that he enjoys symbolism...so that could be the reason there are 3 dragons (lots of 3 tie-ins with the Targaryens in their history). It could be nothing more then that. Or there could be a plan that we do not know yet for the other two Dragons. Or there very well could be riders for them. Who knows. I just have a hunch it's not going to be that easy/simple with the remaining two...it just doesn't seem to fit to me. Idk.

Lady Blizzardborn · March 9, 2016

3 hours ago, SevasTra82 said:

Not necessarily. They could have a purpose that is unknown to us (as of yet). The whole "rider" theory stems from the idea from the "dragon must have 3 heads" prophecy that people go off of...so the conclusion is jumped to that their sole purpose is to have riders, which may not be the case.

<snip

No, actually it stems from the fact that it's been repeated throughout the series that dragons have riders, particularly Targaryen dragons. The dragonriders also used saddles, and we have a character who is known to be able to design special saddles for special circumstances. Said character also happens to have a life-long obsession with dragons, and has probably read every book known to man on the subject of the creatures.

Dany's comment about there being two men she in the world she can trust, based on the number of dragons she has, is not strong enough to make a case for the three heads all being riders as the dragons are way too small for riding when she has that thought. I grant that some people invoke that quote, but there's plenty to support the idea of multiple dragonriders without bringing one vague thought from the MoD into the mix.

@Danelle, I understand now.

BalerionTheCat · March 9, 2016

The dragons will have their masters. Daenerys of course. Euron probably. Maybe Victarion with his horn, Moqorro with his magic. Tyrion unlikely. Aegon, why not. But I'm not sure the dragons will survive the end of ASoIaF. IMO, they seem more part of the problem than of the solution. And the solution will be "find an agreement with the Others". I don't feel the brute force could vanquish the Others. And the dragons could end up on the losing side.

Lord Varys · March 10, 2016

16 minutes ago, BalerionTheCat said:

The dragons will have their masters. Daenerys of course. Euron probably. Maybe Victarion with his horn, Moqorro with his magic. Tyrion unlikely. Aegon, why not. But I'm not sure the dragons will survive the end of ASoIaF. IMO, they seem more part of the problem than of the solution. And the solution will be "find an agreement with the Others". I don't feel the brute force could vanquish the Others. And the dragons could end up on the losing side.

There is no hint that the dragons 'are part of the problem'. They are just animals. Magical animals maybe, but animals nonetheless. Even if the Valyrian/Targaryen dragons are magical creations artificially created by the dragonlords, there is no hint that this has anything to do with the freak seasons.

And they are the main thing that is 'wrong' in this world.

A deal with the Others doesn't look likely to me. I mean, they use dead humans as their pawns in their war - that doesn't suggest that they consider human beings their equal - more like animals or (perhaps better) vermin that need to be exterminated.

Turning the seasons back to normal might be something the Others will oppose violently - after all, it seems that the long cold in the northern regions is caused by the freak seasons (which include long periods of cold weather up north even in 'summer') while earth-like shorter seasons could actually turn the Lands of Always Winter into a region that is at least ice-free in summer - and that, presumably, could be the end of the Others (who most likely cannot survive in a warm climate).

The dragons could still die in the final battle, of course. But without at least one dragon (and perhaps some recently born hatchlings) there is only a small chance for a strong central power and a united rebuilding effort. Whoever rules Westeros in the end - he or she won't stand a chance to remain in charge without dragons.

14 hours ago, Danelle said:

I see. We just have a different approach to Aegon.

I don't consider him to be Dany's antagonist but merely a pawn of Varys, who is probably an antagonist to Dany, although his affiliations might change, it depends on the course of the events. He is introduced too late in the story to have an actual impact.

In the text, Aegon does not seem to consider Dany a rival.

I believe that it is likely that the roles of Aegon and Dany will be reversed.

If the original plan of Varys and Illyrio was to have the dothrakis invading Westeros in the name of House Targaryen, attempting to win the throne for Viserys Targaryen, create havoc in the continent, further destabilise the fragile alliances between the Starks, Baratheons, Martells, Lannisters and Tyrells and then when nobody trusts anyone, Rhaegar's son returns to set things right and prove that he is by far more able to rule Westeros than the Lannisters/Starks/Baratheons and also his uncle Viserys.

It is possible that by the time Daenerys will return to Westeros, Aegon might be already dead amidst the chaos that will ensue, especialy following the Lannister-Tyrell conflict. Even if Daenerys meets Aegon, I think it is more possible for her to fight him, than allow him to ride her dragons.

Unless of course, Aegon, decides to steal one of her dragons or attempt to tame one, without Dany's consent, which is very risky.

Well, the thing for me is that by the time WOW will be published, we will already need to find how the story will develop for the following main characters:

Jon

Sansa

Tyrion

Dany

Arya

Jaime

Cersei

Margaery

Stannis

Davos

Arianne

Melisandre

Barristan

SAM

Brienne

Roose

Theon

And I am not including other minor characters, which might prove very importantt, such as Loras, Mance, Walder Frey, Asha, Green Grace, Illyrio, Willas, Tormund and so many others. It is not as if Aegon brings something new to the story.

I am not suggesting that Aegon is unimportant, but for reasons that pertaint to narrative balance, I find the possibility of Aegon arising to a character of outmost importance at this point of the story, very unlikely. Two books are left to finish the story, having Dany miracously bringing the dragons back, struggling to raise them, Jon trying to confront his place in westerosi society (not to mention the various hints to his Targaryen ancestry), Tyrion, Bran or Vic, who are occassionally considered to be the 3rd dragon rider, have also struggled to achieve their goals, becoming dragon riders or at least controllong the dragons is believable and intriguing in terms of character development.

Having a kid, who was barely mentioned in the previous novels and is introduced in DWD, riding a dragon only because he has Targaryen ancestry and a claim to the IT , is not an interesting turn of events, just a targ ex machina.

I can understand why the concept of an impostor, a pretender or an actual lost Targaryen might be appealing, especially in a story such as ASOIAF where Power resides where men believe it resides. But right now, for me, I think that it would be better if GRRM focused on resolving plots instead of expanding on new ones.

The story of Aegon isn't as unimportant as it may seem. In fact, it is quite clear that George deliberately prepared things for Aegon's quick rise to power as early as ASoS. First Tywin was killed, and then Cersei fucked things up for the Lannisters in AFfC.

The original outline had Dany's conquest occur in the second book of the trilogy, ADwD. If George wanted to wrap things up quickly AFfC/ADwD could have set the stage for Dany's conquest of Westeros by, say, installing a united and dangerous anti-Daenerys front in control of Westeros in those books against whom Daenerys then can fight when she arrives.

Instead we got a quick decline of Lannister power - something that would be politically completely anticlimactic if Dany came soon - while Daenerys chose to stay in Meereen for good in the beginning of the book, introducing many other story lines (Harpy, dragons, Ironborn, Volantis, Dothraki) that have to be resolved before she can go to Westeros.. But if Dany had come with her dragons instead of Aegon in ADwD everyone would have declared for her in a heartbeat, the Lannister levies included. Nobody would have opposed her.

But as things stand now she is not going to arrive in Westeros soon. Certainly not in TWoW. That cannot possibly work unless George suddenly jumps ahead in time in an unusual fashion.

In addition, the whole Aegon plot in Westeros completely hinges on Aegon having success and surviving until Dany arrives. In fact, he is the only character who cannot die until Dany comes. If he did die then his whole movement and the people declaring for him would lose their figurehead, effectively forcing them to fight for an absent Daenerys Targaryen (or possibly for a Queen Regnant Arianne Martell if she is Aegon's widow - as his wife and with her own Targaryen ancestry she could also claim the Iron Throne for herself). That completely erases the potential for conflict once Dany finally arrives in Westeros.

In that sense Aegon is a very important character even if he was introduced late in the series. Whether he'll ever become a dragonrider is a different question, but I'm pretty sure if there is a Second Dance of the Dragons then this is not going to happen without Aegon. Euron Greyjoy will, of course, remain a player in the game during that whole thing, potentially becoming a major threat to both Dany and Aegon, but I don't see him actually conquering the Iron Throne in the near future.

If George had sent Dany west in ADwD and had actually advanced the Others plot somewhat then the idea that he can conclude the series in two more books would be believable. But you really cannot end this series in just two more books in its present fashion. There are way too many plots, and those cannot be cut simply by killing characters. Many of those characters lead armies and those are not just going to disappear into thin air because their commander dies. We see how the plots of dead characters continue right now in the Riverlands and the North. Robb's former subjects prepare to avenge him and regain control over his domains.

Not to mention that the whole Others threat really deserve some time to breathe and unfold. Westeros has to fully understand the threat it is facing, people have to grow really, really desperate, and this simply can't happen in just half a book or so. Not to mention that it would be perhaps the worst ending of a fantasy series ever if the dragons just flew in to save the day. That would be the eagles destroying the One Ring after 'The Council of Elrond'. Even Dany and the dragons have first to find out how exactly they can help in the fighting.

In that sense I think it is clear that this series definitely needs 3-4 books to be concluded, perhaps even more. Trying to rush the ending would ruin the story.

Lord Varys · March 10, 2016