the dragon riders

[Lord Varys]

10 hours ago, Nictarion said:

To me she is, because of the way she tamed Sheepstealer. 

But didn't Dany effectively claim Drogon in a similar fashion as Nettles did? I mean, Drogon was effectively a wild dragon in ADwD having lived in the wild for months and not having fond memories of his last interaction with his 'mother' and her thugs... Nettles had to win Sheepstealer's trust with the sheep, Dany had the advantage of once having Drogon's trust back when she fed and cared for him when he was still a hatchling.

But no one would consider Dany forging a preliminary bond with her hatchlings by feeding them - which Nettles also did with Sheepstealer - as 'proof' that she has no Targaryen blood. Or as 'proof' that Targaryen blood is not necessary to ride a dragon.

In addition we see in ASoS that the dragons begin to treat Irri and Jhiqui disrespectfully (snapping at them, etc.) despite the fact that they - just as Dany (and Nettles, in a smaller degree) - had fed them since they hatched. If the basis for becoming a dragonrider was basically 'bribing the dragon with food' then Irri and Jhiqui certainly would be the prime (and perhaps the only) candidates to claim Viserion and Rhaegal. But nobody believes that. Especially since at the same time Dany's distant cousin on the Targaryen side, Brown Ben Plumm, is obviously liked by the dragons despite the fact that he has never before interacted with them nor consciously tried to win their trust.

This is all no coincidence. Being nice to a dragon isn't enough to bond with him, and vice versa having dragonlord blood isn't a guarantee that you will be successful, either. Drogon was on the verge of killing Dany in ADwD, after all.

This doesn't mean that dragonlord blood is the only way to claim or subdue a dragon. Skinchanging always remains a possibility, and there might be other spells experienced sorcerers might know which can yield (roughly) similar results. I'm especially thinking about Melisandre being able to sever or mess with the bond between Jon Snow and Ghost. I'm pretty sure this was just a trick - perhaps one of her powders - but there could be actual spells destroying or hijacking the bonds between dragonriders and dragons as well as those between skinchangers and their animals. 

But nothing in Nettles' case suggests she was a sorcerer or a skinchanger. Unless you simply presupposes this was the case. I think she was a brown-haired foul-mouthed Dragonstonian girl. Anything else doesn't make much sense. I mean - why the hell would Nettles only claim Sheepstealer after Prince Jacaerys' call for dragonriders? Sheepstealer, Grey Ghost, and the Cannibal had been wild dragons living in their lairs on Dragonstone for years. Not to mention that Nettles then attached herself to the Black cause rather than doing whatever else a person only pretending to be a 14-year-old girl could have done. I mean, if she wanted to get to Prince Daemon she could have done that years ago (if she wasn't actually fourteen years old) not to mention that Daemon wasn't with Jace and Rhaenyra on Dragonstone at the time Nettles claimed Sheepstealer. They only met after Rhaenyra had taken King's Landing.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

^ No, it is not the same. Dany's case is more similar to the Targaryen children getting dragon eggs. Her POV indicates that she "felt" them before they were born, though I don't remember if there is something special about Drogon's egg.

Nettles' case is apparently different, as it's also different from the other dragon "seeds". There is also the fact that she never claimed to have a dragon ancestry. This does not prove or disprove anything, it simply provides ambiguity and it's done on purpose, in my opinion. If providing certainty was the intent, the info we are given would not allow for different possible interpretations. We'd be given an ancestry for Nettles, as we are given for the rest, and that would be it.

Yes, it's possible that Nettles has the blood, being from Dragonstone raises the possibilities, but it's not like a statistical certainty. It's not like we have any reason to assume that there's something, like, 60% of the Dragonstonians are of Valyrian blood... (Btw, Irri and Jiqui are not very likely to have Valyrian blood but it's not impossible either, that they don't bond to the dragons does not prove anything about it.)

On why Nettles did not try before, it's very possible that the mere attempt might be, normally, death penalty prohibited. I would think that dragon lords would not like the possibility that some random (even dragon-blooded) person may claim a dragon of their own and found a rival dragon lord family. Same reason why Viserys forbade Daemon to give dragon eggs to his bastards, I suppose.

[Lord Varys]

53 minutes ago, ShadowCat Rivers said:

^ No, it is not the same. Dany's case is more similar to the Targaryen children getting dragon eggs. Her POV indicates that she "felt" them before they were born, though I don't remember if there is something special about Drogon's egg.

Nettles' case is apparently different, as it's also different from the other dragon "seeds". There is also the fact that she never claimed to have a dragon ancestry. This does not prove or disprove anything, it simply provides ambiguity and it's done on purpose, in my opinion. If providing certainty was the intent, the info we are given would not allow for different possible interpretations. We'd be given an ancestry for Nettles, as we are given for the rest, and that would be it.

Yes, it's possible that Nettles has the blood, being from Dragonstone raises the possibilities, but it's not like a statistical certainty. It's not like we have any reason to assume that there's something, like, 60% of the Dragonstonians are of Valyrian blood... (Btw, Irri and Jiqui are not very likely to have Valyrian blood but it's not impossible either, that they don't bond to the dragons does not prove anything about it.)

On why Nettles did not try before, it's very possible that the mere attempt might be, normally, death penalty prohibited. I would think that dragon lords would not like the possibility that some random (even dragon-blooded) person may claim a dragon of their own and found a rival dragon lord family. Same reason why Viserys forbade Daemon to give dragon eggs to his bastards, I suppose.

I'm aware that Dany is a special case, of course. But we don't know for sure she became a dragonrider because of her Targaryen blood (if she is a dragonrider right now already, there are people who argue against that because she is supposedly not yet fully in control of Drogon), do we?

As far as we know neither Ulf nor Hugh ever claimed to have dragon blood. It is nowhere stated in TPatQ nor in TWoIaF that they said they descendant from this or that Targaryen prince or (alleged) Targaryen bastard. In fact, when Hugh proclaims himself king he does so by right of riding the biggest dragon not because of his alleged Targaryen heritage. One should assume he would have repeated some story about his Targaryen ancestors if such a story was known among his family.

In light of the fact that TPatQ was severely edited and did not focus mainly on Nettles and Daemon we cannot say we know everything George has written about her, nor can we actually make the case George deliberately left things about her ambiguous. TPatQ was edited by Gardner Dozois for 'Dangerous Women' not by George himself, so he didn't even make the decision what from Gyldayn's full account made it into the novella and what had to go (although he most likely told him to somewhat focus on Alicent and Rhaenyra).

Ulf may have some Valyrian ancestry because of his name - but then, that's no proof, either.

As to Dragonstone: We don't know how many people there lived when the Valyrians first arrived there, but one can assume that whatever fisherfolk lived there at this point was terribly afraid of the dragonlords and not necessarily inclined to continue living there. In addition, we also know that Aenar the Exile didn't exactly go Dragonstone alone. He even took his slaves with him. It is entirely possible that the entire population of Dragonstone by the time of the Dance has at least one distant Valyrian ancestor. Especially if there is any truth to Gyldayn's story about the dragonseeds (the stuff about the pre-Jaehaerys I Targaryens having lots of fun with their commoner girls).

Your ad hoc explanation that it would have been punishable by death for anyone to try to claim a wild dragon is actually refuted by TPatQ if you read closely. Gyldayn tells us '[w]ould-be dragontamers had made attempts to ride him [the Cannibal] a dozen times; his lair was littered by their bones.'

Directly thereafter he continues: 'None of the dragonseeds were fool enough to disturb the Cannibal (any who were did not return to tell their tales).'

That makes it clear that Gyldayn knows that people had tried to claim the Cannibal long before the outbreak of the Dance. Of the people answering Jace's call no one (as far as Gyldayn knows) tried to mount the Cannibal. The dragon already had a reputation of killing people who tried to do that - that's where the bones in the Cannibal's lair come from.

That means there was no law in effect which threatened any man or woman who tried to mount one of the wild dragons with the death penalty. Not to mention that there is no indication to believe that the lairs of the wild dragons were guarded or protected. In fact, we know that the lair of Grey Ghost wasn't even known to the people on Dragonstone because he was such an elusive creature. If you don't even know where such a dragon lives you cannot possibly prevent anyone from trying to mount him.

The much better take on this is that the Targaryens - feeling secure in their belief that they are more like gods than men - thought the wild dragons would kill and devour anyone who dared approach them. And that wasn't all that unrealistic, after all. Vermithor, Silverwing, and Seasmoke may have been guarded, but even that isn't clear.

The difference between Ulf-Hugh-Addam and Nettles is in the dragon they claimed, not their approaches. Ulf, Hugh, and Addam claimed dragons that had been ridden before and were accustomed to the presence of humans. Sheepstealer wasn't. A potential rider had to treat him differently than one of the other dragons (or suffer the consequences like Alyn of Hull did when he tried to mount Sheepstealer).

This is why the Dany-Drogon example is actually a good comparison here. Dany may have raised and fed Drogon for some time, but he has effectively become wild and very dangerous by the time he returns to Meereen. He is on the verge of not recognizing her, after all. Whatever magic is in dragonlord blood it doesn't make you fire-proof, nor does it contain such a strong magic to subdue a dragon on sight. The magical bond has to be formed and that may even take some time. Although the histories suggest that riding a dragon once effectively does the trick.

Nettles fed Sheepstealer sheep until such time as she could approach him without risking that he would burn her to a crisp. Then she mounted him, making her as much a dragonseed of unknown dragonlord ancestors as Hugh and Ulf (in Addam's case we know that he had dragonlord blood).

[Jô Maltese]

11 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

I wonder if the dragon blood requirement has been left ambiguous because he wants to leave the question of A+J=T always ambiguous.

Regardless, in world I have no doubt Dany is going to believe dragon blood is required to ride her dragons.

^^This. And it's not only Dany, it's the whole Westeros population (and many in Essos) who will think so: "Power resides where men believe it resides.(...) And ofttimes a very small man can cast a very large shadow.”

[ShadowCat Rivers]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

I'm aware that Dany is a special case, of course. But we don't know for sure she became a dragonrider because of her Targaryen blood (if she is a dragonrider right now already, there are people who argue against that because she is supposedly not yet fully in control of Drogon), do we?

Eh? Daenerys is a dragon rider without any doubt, and it's clear that her connection to dragons exists because of who she is. I don't need any pseudo-scientific sort of proof about it, thematic coherence is enough for me.

Your suggestion about Dragonstone inhabitants does not seem very likely IMO: it's two paragraphs dealing with the demographics of Dragonstone, ending in "Even after the end of the right of the first night, certain Targaryens continued to dally with the daughters of innkeeps and the wives of fishermen, so seeds and the sons of seeds were plentiful on Dragonstone." I don't think that, by this account, plentiful should be understood as meaning the majority of the polulation.

I also don't agree with your understanding of Drogon as a wild dragon. Yes, he was never ridden before, but it's also clear from Dany's POV that there has always been a bond between them, as also demonstrated in the House of the Undying and Astapor among others.

Nettles approach is to Sheepstealer is substancially different from the approach other (successful) riders had towards their dragons. It's self-evident as I read it, so if you read that differently I can't do anything about it.

Other than that: I had forgotten about the account of failed attempts. Still it does not prove much, but it is not so dramatically relevent anyway (the point was to propose the possibility of a mundane, not as mysterious as you present it, explanation). So prohibition may not have been the reason for not making the attempt earlier. Would you mind to actually give your explanation? Because you made it seem like something of great significance that might explain things.

ETA - reading the relevent passage again, it seems that very few people would dare to make the attempt and Jace used great rewards to lure them into taking the risk. Which is still a mundane and not mysterious explanation, but thinking about it, it also attracts the question, isn't a dragon enough of a reward? In the sense that, whoever managed to get on one would be able to take/gain stuff because of that? Or else, what? (And that's where a prohibition idea follows).

[Jô Maltese]

Nettles' approach to Sheepstealer is actually very similar to Dany's with her dragons when they become adults...

[ShadowCat Rivers]

3 minutes ago, Jo Maltese said:

Nettles' approach to Sheepstealer is actually very similar to Dany's with her dragons when they become adults...

What, did Nettles ever lock Sheepstealer away or something? 

[Lost Melnibonean]

From the Foreword to The Sworn Sword published in Legends II, 12/30/2003 . . .

The lords freeholder of Valyria ruled the greater part of the known world; they were sorcerers, great in lore, and alone of all the races of man they had learned to breed dragons and bend them to their will.

[Jô Maltese]

4 minutes ago, ShadowCat Rivers said:

What, did Nettles ever lock Sheepstealer away or something?

She fed them cautiously... And indeed only the time window is different between Dany and Nettle's: Dany was lucky enough to be part of their environment since their birth, hence her presence was easily tolerated by the dragons when they became adults. But as the Quentin episode or Dany's first riding of Drogon show, this did not mean the adults dragons were fully tamed or ready to be ridden by her. And like Nettle's wild dragon, they had never been ridden before... Other dragon tamers in tpatQ actually tamed "second-hand" dragons IIRC.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

3 minutes ago, Jo Maltese said:

She fed them cautiously... And indeed only the time window is different between Dany and Nettle's: Dany was lucky enough to be part of their environment since their birth, hence her presence was easily tolerated by the dragons when they became adults. But as the Quentin episode or Dany's first riding of Drogon show, this did not mean the adults dragons were fully tamed or ready to be ridden by her. And like Nettle's wild dragon, they had never been ridden before... Other dragon tamers in tpatQ actually tamed "second-hand" dragons IIRC.

Do you really think that Dany will ever ride Viserion or Rhaegal? I am practically convinced that she won't.

[Jô Maltese]

38 minutes ago, ShadowCat Rivers said:

Do you really think that Dany will ever ride Viserion or Rhaegal? I am practically convinced that she won't.

I have never said that? But I think she could have become the rider of any of them, with more or less difficulty (less for Viserion, more for Rhaegal). But I also think that Drogon would not have accepted any rider apart from Dany... Or Jon (not a possibility anymore unless Dany dies).

[ShadowCat Rivers]

3 minutes ago, Jo Maltese said:

I have never said that? But I think she could have become the rider of any of them, with more or less difficulty (less for Viserion, more for Rhaegal). But I also think that Drogon would not have accepted any rider apart from Dany... Or Jon (not a possibility anymore unless Dany dies).

I would say it is implied by the comparaison. Because if we accept that Dany is not going to ride the other dragons, then the comparaison to Nettles approach (to the dragon she did get to bond with) is really not applicable.

[Jô Maltese]

11 minutes ago, ShadowCat Rivers said:

I would say it is implied by the comparaison. Because if we accept that Dany is not going to ride the other dragons, then the comparaison to Nettles approach (to the dragon she did get to bond with) is really not applicable.

Yes it is. She has fed Drogon and has become part of his routine environment just like Nettles had with Sheepstealer.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

2 minutes ago, Jo Maltese said:

Yes it is. She has fed Drogon and has become part of his routine environment just like Nettles had with Sheepstealer.

Whom she had and (as infered from her POV) bonded with since he was still an egg, like Targaryen children who were given dragon eggs, and unlike Nettles.

[Jô Maltese]

9 minutes ago, ShadowCat Rivers said:

Whom she had and (as infered from her POV) bonded with since he was still an egg, like Targaryen children who were given dragon eggs, and unlike Nettles.

This is Dany's subjectivity against fact objectivity. Let's agree to disagree.

[King Viserys Targaryen IV]

17 hours ago, Nictarion said:

To me she is, because of the way she tamed Sheepstealer. 

Giving Sheepstealer the mutton every morning is not how she tamed him, it was her way of letting her get close to him because he was wild.

The bonding would be due to her dragon blood.

[Lost Melnibonean]

2 hours ago, Jo Maltese said:

I have never said that? But I think she could have become the rider of any of them, with more or less difficulty (less for Viserion, more for Rhaegal). But I also think that Drogon would not have accepted any rider apart from Dany... Or Jon (not a possibility anymore unless Dany dies).

That lemon tree was there for a reason...

[Lost Melnibonean]

Nettles' taming of Sheepstealer foreshadows Tyrion's taming of Viserion, although I think Brown Ben will be the rider. 

[Sigella]

Well, the only person the dragons show any kind of affection for (except Dany) is IIRC Brown Ben Plum. He's the kind of "unexpected" character GRRM is inclined to use for stuff like this, and there is actual text supporting it as well. 

If Aegon is real and stays alive until Dany reaches Westeros, I really hope he'll ride Rhaegal. A personal piece of crackpot is that Bloodraven, instead of "going into the trees", will have his second life in one of the dragons, and if so he'll probably prefer Targaryen-smelling people - maybe being the one who exposes the fake Aegon.

I'd really like it if Bran got to be a dragon rider, but I doubt it.

I don't think the dragonhorn will result in a dragon for the IB. Im hoping that it will result in a roasting. 

[King Viserys Targaryen IV]

2 minutes ago, Sigella said:

Well, the only person the dragons show any kind of affection for (except Dany) is IIRC Brown Ben Plum. He's the kind of "unexpected" character GRRM is inclined to use for stuff like this, and there is actual text supporting it as well. 

If Aegon is real and stays alive until Dany reaches Westeros, I really hope he'll ride Rhaegal. A personal piece of crackpot is that Bloodraven, instead of "going into the trees", will have his second life in one of the dragons, and if so he'll probably prefer Targaryen-smelling people - maybe being the one who exposes the fake Aegon.

I'd really like it if Bran got to be a dragon rider, but I doubt it.

I don't think the dragonhorn will result in a dragon for the IB. Im hoping that it will result in a roasting. 

Brown Ben is only there to show that the dragons respond to Targaryen blood, to set the stage for two other Targaryens that will become riders.