Stannis/Viserys parallels

[Kaguya]

Saw this on another forum and thought it was amusing and interesting

Interesting similarities

• an unliked middle brother who doesn't know why people don't like him

• overshadowed and jealous of both siblings

• makes demands without much attempt at compromise

• believes he is essentially an infallible God

• holds on to a lifetime of grudges

• attempted/successful kinslayer

• is okay with burning people alive but not a fetishist of it

[Danelle]

Interesting approach, although 

 

• I believe that while Viserys thought that he was perfect, Stannis was well aware of the fact that he lacked the charisma which defined both Robert and Renly.
• This is true for Stannis but is it true about Viserys as well? If anything Viserys is the one who presented Rhaegar to Dany as an embodiment of absolute perfection. I was always under the impression that unlike most children, Viserys instead of attempting to imitate his father, he had his older brother as a role model.
• I think that to a certain extent, both of them were indeed very stubborn. And they were willing to sacrifice anything in order to take the IT, which both believe that it is theirs by right.
•  I think that the main difference is that Stannis is led to believe that he is the Chosen One, whereas Viserys is driven to megalomania by the entitlement afforded to them by the people of Westeros.
• True, but I feel more pity for Viserys than Stannis. Viserys did witness the brutal deaths of his family and watched as one by one, their allies and friends abandoned them. He has every right to feel betrayed. Stannis on the other hand, was constantly complaining and grinding his teeth for trivial matters. Robert did try to please him but Stannis was never easy to handle.
• Not merely a kinslayer, but a kingslayer of a more charismatic sibling, which managed to usurp their claim to the throne.
• I don't recall Viserys mentioning fire as a punishment. Are you referring to any passage in particular? As for Stannis I believe that he tolerates burning partly because it is what Mel wants. 

[John Doe]

1 hour ago, Kaguya said:

Saw this on another forum and thought it was amusing and interesting

Interesting similarities

• an unliked middle brother who doesn't know why people don't like him

• overshadowed and jealous of both siblings

• makes demands without much attempt at compromise

• believes he is essentially an infallible God

• holds on to a lifetime of grudges

• attempted/successful kinslayer

• is okay with burning people alive but not a fetishist of it

- Stannis does know why people don't like him, he just doesn't care.

-  I think he's not really jealous of Renly as a person, he only envies his position which can to a large part be attributed to his sense of justice.

- Stannis does compromise, as can be seen in how he won the northern lords.

- He doesn't think that, he is an atheist. He only begins to believe Mel's prophecies after she proves beyond a doubt that she can see the future, but even then he doesn't consider himself a god, he admits when he makes mistakes ("I had the cart before the horse") and changes his plans when offered sound advice (meeting with Jon Snow). 

- This is partly true, however I do think Stanns is less personal about it. 

- Yes, but the circumstances are very different.

- True, but again different circumstances. 

[dariopatke]

Robert did try to please him but Stannis was never easy to handle.

Just curious, on whar event are you refering to?

Making him marry Selyse was not something that pleased him, Florents are not powerful family, I recall that they gathered 2k men which is few by Reach standards (Walder has 4k and Roose has similar numbers), ok so if she is not from mighty house she has to he pretty to please him, but she isn't.

Now I know that Stannis isn't into women that much, budt having Hightower or even pretty Frey would please him more that Selyse did, that marriage was for pure political reasons to keep Tyrells on their place and I believe that Jon arranged it.

Naming him lord of Dragonstone was a good thing as much as it was a slight, if somebody else did it I wouldnt seebthat as a slight, but because it is Robert I do think so. It is so Robert to give him a castle he took but failed a mission while stripping him of a castle he nearly died defending and gave it to his baby brother (he was there too, but had much bigger role as actual leader of a castle).

Naming him master of ships was a good thing, but I don't think he did to please Stannis, but to have a proven naval commander and a loyal man in that position, plus he built Royal fleet. If Robb Stark won the war, do you see him giving Master of Ships to anyone but Manderly? I dont think so.

I agree that pleasing Stannis was a difficult thing to do, but I also claim that Robert did not bother with that.

If he wanted to please Stannis he could have named him his Hand after Jon died.

[The Drunkard]

2 hours ago, Kaguya said:

• an unliked middle brother who doesn't know why people don't like him

• believes he is essentially an infallible God

These aren't true. Of either of them, really. Stannis is aware of his faults, questions himself, and surrounds himself with people willing to tell him hard truths and set him straight. Viserys I imagine knew he was a fairly pathetic person, which is why he was so insecure and so unwilling to let go of the one person he had total power over.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

5 hours ago, Kaguya said:

Saw this on another forum and thought it was amusing and interesting

Interesting similarities

• an unliked middle brother who doesn't know why people don't like him ~I think that Stannis knows why people don't like him. 

• overshadowed and jealous of both siblings ~I don't remember where it was told that Viserys was jelous of Rhaegar. He even praises the guy.

• makes demands without much attempt at compromise~Why should Stannis compromise with Renly? By the right of conquest and blood he is Robert's heir. Viserys except the dragon eggs he wanted what Drogo had promised to give him.

• believes he is essentially an infallible God~When was that? If anything Stannis believes that he is a hero not a God. And when Viserys told anything about Gods?

• holds on to a lifetime of grudges~Somehow true.

• attempted/successful kinslayer~How is Stannis to blame for what Mel did with his seed? AFAWK she hadn't told him what was going to happen before it happens.

• is okay with burning people alive but not a fetishist of it~Ned chosed beheading for the traitors and Stannis burning. On the other hand Viserys seemed to gain pleasure from burning.

 

[BlackBethaRidesAgain]

Yea, we are never conclusively given reason to believe that Viserys was jealous of Rhaegar. It is possible, though. I think he might've been intimidated by Rhaegar's legacy or had conflicting opinions from Aerys, who was suspicious about Rhaegar. 

Though, I do see these similarities between Stannis and Viserys, I hesitate to call them parallels--at least in the sense of narrative arcs. Viserys was conditioned from early on to believe that he is the rightful heir to the IT, yet his ambition, impatience, stubbornness, and privilege lead to his downfall. Whereas, I see Stannis as more of a reluctant hero. True, he has grudges and thinks he was slighted, but until we learn that Robert did not have legitimate children with Cersei, Stannis is not under the impression that he will get the throne. It was Storm's End he wanted, and only after Mel started convincing him that he was a reborn hero and learned of the Lannister twincest he believes he is the rightful heir. Where Viserys's arc is a cautionary tale about ambition and privilege, Stannis's arc is about a reluctant (and some might say doomed) hero who steps ups to the challenge. 

Part of me believes that the perfect parallel arc to Viserys would be Joffrey. But it is fun to point out character similarities in a mostly hated character (Viserys) and a fairly well-liked character (Stannis). 

 

[7-KG]

You're comparing Stannis to Viserys? Seriously?

12 hours ago, Kaguya said:

*believes he is essentially an infallible God

No, Stannis doesn't believe he's a "god". He thinks he's the chosen one to fight the Others and that's it.

12 hours ago, Kaguya said:

• is okay with burning people alive but not a fetishist of it

Stannis is only "okay" with burning people depending on the circumstances.

I disagree with the other points as well, but other posters already covered them. Just wanted to say something on this.

[Darkbringer]

15 hours ago, John Doe said:

- Stannis does know why people don't like him, he just doesn't care.

 

He clearly does care. He gets annoyed that the loyalty of vassals is a matter of popularity instead of honour. He knows that he is not as charismatic as his brother. He just isn't going to change.

[Lord_Ravenstone]

1 hour ago, Darkbringer said:

He clearly does care. He gets annoyed that the loyalty of vassals is a matter of popularity instead of honour. He knows that he is not as charismatic as his brother. He just isn't going to change.

Gotta remain true to yourself, yo

[RenlyIsNotRight]

2 hours ago, Lord_Ravenstone said:

Gotta remain true to yourself, yo

This is basically Stannis' theme song

Also man this OP...good to know Stannis haters are still as practiced in mental gymnastics as they were back in the day.

[Danelle]

18 hours ago, dariopatke said:

Just curious, on whar event are you refering to?

Making him marry Selyse was not something that pleased him, Florents are not powerful family, I recall that they gathered 2k men which is few by Reach standards (Walder has 4k and Roose has similar numbers), ok so if she is not from mighty house she has to he pretty to please him, but she isn't.

Now I know that Stannis isn't into women that much, budt having Hightower or even pretty Frey would please him more that Selyse did, that marriage was for pure political reasons to keep Tyrells on their place and I believe that Jon arranged it.

Naming him lord of Dragonstone was a good thing as much as it was a slight, if somebody else did it I wouldnt seebthat as a slight, but because it is Robert I do think so. It is so Robert to give him a castle he took but failed a mission while stripping him of a castle he nearly died defending and gave it to his baby brother (he was there too, but had much bigger role as actual leader of a castle).

Naming him master of ships was a good thing, but I don't think he did to please Stannis, but to have a proven naval commander and a loyal man in that position, plus he built Royal fleet. If Robb Stark won the war, do you see him giving Master of Ships to anyone but Manderly? I dont think so.

I agree that pleasing Stannis was a difficult thing to do, but I also claim that Robert did not bother with that.

If he wanted to please Stannis he could have named him his Hand after Jon died.

In regards to Dragonstone, GRRM has said that:

Quote

Stannis always resented being given Dragonstone while Renly got Storm's End, and took that as a slight... but it's not necessarily true that Robert meant it that way. The Targaryen heir apparent had always been titled Prince of Dragonstone. By making Stannis the Lord of Dragonstone, Robert affirmed his brother's status as heir (which he was, until Joff's birth a few years later). Robert could just as lawfully retained both castles for his sons, and made Joffrey the Prince of Dragonstone and Tommen the Lord of Storm's End. Giving them to his brothers instead was another instance of his great, but rather careless, generosity.

So it was not meant to be a slight, Stannis should have considered that the previous tenants were Prince Rhaegar and Princess Elia. And as GRRM notes, Robert, following the births of his sons, should have given Dragonstone to Joffrey and SE to Tommen. He did not. I am not suggesting that Robert was perfect, but Stannis did exagerrate. 

Regarding Selyse, was it Robert who arranged the betrothal?

Stannis being master of ships was a prudent choice. Stannis becoming Hand was not. 

Quote

Lord Renly laughed. "We're fortunate my brother Stannis is not with us. Remember the time he proposed to outlaw brothels? The king asked him if perhaps he'd like to outlaw eating, shitting, and breathing while he was at it.

That position requires a man, who is able to handle delicate situations. Stannis, while capable of many things, was not fit for such demanding position. Not to mention the fact that one of his closest advisors, was a foreign priestess. Selyse and several of her relatives converted to her religion and burned effigies of the 7. Imagine something similar occuring in KL. 

 

Stannis was a difficult man, and so was Robert, there is no doubt.

Robert tried to please everyone and he failed.

In any case, Robert's treatment of Stannis cannot be compared to the adversities that Viserys faced.

Stannis complained because he was given a less nicer castle than Renly.

Viserys complained because his cousin Robert slaughtered his brother, his father's subject, Ned Stark defeated the Targaryen armu, and the man who used to babysit him, slew his father. And the result of course, was that Viserys became a beggar. 

 

 

[dariopatke]

If Robert gave Dragonstone to Joff and SE to Tommen Stannis wouldn't mind, problem was that it was Renly, his baby brother who got SE and knowing Robert it was both a promotion and a slight, he is just that guy.

Who else would arrange the marriage? I believe somewhere in the books Stannis even said it.

About his Handship, I said it would please him, not it is a good choise and that Robert did not care for Stannis and his wishes, I do not say I would name him my Hand if I was Robert (I would probably go with Ned,too. Or maybe even better Renly, he is perfect Hand and just as loyal as Ned is).

Mel came in his life after he fled KL, burning also happened after departure, but ofc not a smart move. If I am Jon I would decline his offer only because he wants to burn Godswood, 8000 years it stands there, no one gets to burn it.

Oh, of course, Stannis after rebelion had a perfect life compared to Viserys'.

I do not think he complained because he got less nicer castle but because he led his men including Renly trough a siege and that castle was given to Renly, if Robert offered him Harenhall, Highgarden or Casterly Rock and gave SE to Renly he wouldnt be happy because he gave everything he could to defend that castle.

Well, his father wanted his innocent cousin dead, but anyway. I am curious why Martells hadnt bought a mansion and servants in some Free City and dozen Unsullied to guard them and keep them fed and safe, they are third richest family in 7K so money is not an issue here.

Not related, but Robert did nothing wrong when he killed Rheagar, Ned too, they were fighting for their lives and Jaime, well this is a tricky thing,if I am him I would do it, but if I am judge I would send him to Wall.

[Danelle]

10 minutes ago, dariopatke said:

 

If Robert gave Dragonstone to Joff and SE to Tommen Stannis wouldn't mind, problem was that it was Renly, his baby brother who got SE and knowing Robert it was both a promotion and a slight, he is just that guy.

Who else would arrange the marriage? I believe somewhere in the books Stannis even said it.

About his Handship, I said it would please him, not it is a good choise and that Robert did not care for Stannis and his wishes, I do not say I would name him my Hand if I was Robert (I would probably go with Ned,too. Or maybe even better Renly, he is perfect Hand and just as loyal as Ned is).

Mel came in his life after he fled KL, burning also happened after departure, but ofc not a smart move. If I am Jon I would decline his offer only because he wants to burn Godswood, 8000 years it stands there, no one gets to burn it.

Oh, of course, Stannis after rebelion had a perfect life compared to Viserys'.

I do not think he complained because he got less nicer castle but because he led his men including Renly trough a siege and that castle was given to Renly, if Robert offered him Harenhall, Highgarden or Casterly Rock and gave SE to Renly he wouldnt be happy because he gave everything he could to defend that castle.

Well, his father wanted his innocent cousin dead, but anyway. I am curious why Martells hadnt bought a mansion and servants in some Free City and dozen Unsullied to guard them and keep them fed and safe, they are third richest family in 7K so money is not an issue here.

Not related, but Robert did nothing wrong when he killed Rheagar, Ned too, they were fighting for their lives and Jaime, well this is a tricky thing,if I am him I would do it, but if I am judge I would send him to Wall.

The point is the similarities between Stannis and Viserys. While I see your points about Dragonstone, I agree with GRRM's arguments and his position on the matter. If he says that Dragonstone was not meant as a slight, I believe him.  

Jon Arryn might have also been involved in the betrothal, after all he is the one who arranged the Robert/Cersei marriage.

Mel, since she has reasons to believe that a great battle is imminent, would likely come to KL if Stannis would have been and.

I don't know whether becoming Hand would please Stannis, he appears to be a man hard to please and perhaps once he became Hand he would not relish his position.

The OP suggested that both of them have a lifetime of grudges.

Quote

Oh, of course, Stannis after rebelion had a perfect life compared to Viserys'.

Exactly.

In regards to your comments about the actions of Ned, Jaime and Robert during the rebellion, to a certain extent I agree but from the point of view of Viserys, who was a young boy at the time and his mother did her best to protect him from Aerys' paranoia, they are the usurper and his dogs who murdered a benevolent king, a loving father and a devoted husband.

The main difference is that while Stannis has several issues, the people who feels that wronged him are few and doesn't really care for them.

Quote

"Make it Ser Jaime the Kingslayer henceforth," Stannis said, frowning. "Whatever else the man may be, he remains a knight. I don't know that we ought to call Robert my beloved brother either. He loved me no more than he had to, nor I him."

Robert was not really loved by Stannis and he did not really love him. They cared about each pther but it was complicated.

The only person, who wronged him,  and Stannis seems to care about, was Renly.

Quote

"Only Renly could vex me so with a piece of fruit. He brought his doom on himself with his treason, but I did love him, Davos. I know that now. I swear, I will go to my grave thinking of my brother's peach."

But with Viserys, the situation is more personal. He is not angry because of a single incident, he is enraged because his family and subjects turned against him and his family.

Quote

Viserys had been a boy of eight when they fled King's Landing to escape the advancing armies of the Usurper, but Daenerys had been only a quickening in their mother's womb.

Yet sometimes Dany would picture the way it had been, so often had her brother told her the stories. The midnight flight to Dragonstone, moonlight shimmering on the ship's black sails. Her brother Rhaegar battling the Usurper in the bloody waters of the Trident and dying for the woman he loved. The sack of King's Landing by the ones Viserys called the Usurper's dogs, the lords Lannister and Stark. Princess Elia of Dorne pleading for mercy as Rhaegar's heir was ripped from her breast and murdered before her eyes. The polished skulls of the last dragons staring down sightlessly from the walls of the throne room while the Kingslayer opened Father's throat with a golden sword.

Quote

At first the magisters and archons and merchant princes were pleased to welcome the last Targaryens to their homes and tables, but as the years passed and the Usurper continued to sit upon the Iron Throne, doors closed and their lives grew meaner. Years past they had been forced to sell their last few treasures, and now even the coin they had gotten from Mother's crown had gone. In the alleys and wine sinks of Pentos, they called her brother "the beggar king." Dany did not want to know what they called her.

"We will have it all back someday, sweet sister," he would promise her. Sometimes his hands shook when he talked about it. "The jewels and the silks, Dragonstone and King's Landing, the Iron Throne and the Seven Kingdoms, all they have taken from us, we will have it back."

This is not merely feeling that you deserve more, but being deprived of everything you ever had. 

 

As for the Martells, although it is off topic, I supposse that they did not really appreciate the way that Elia was treated.

Jaime mentions that when Prince Lewyn inquired about Princess Elia, Aerys gracelessly reminded him that he held Elia. 

Basically Aerys used Elia and his grandchildren as a mean to force the Martells to join his cause. When later, Queen Rhaella took Viserys and fled to the safety of Dragonstone, Elia and her children were not allowed to join them. The reason? Aerys was under the impression that Lewyn was a traitor and he needed Elia by his side, to ensure the loyalty of the Martells. Not to mention the whole situation with Rhaegar crowining Lyanna. So the Martells do not have many reasons to care for the Targaryens.But the most important fact is that the person responsible for the wellbeing of the exiled Targaryens, was Ser Willem and the Martells did arrange with him a betrotahl between Viserys and Arianne.

The big question is why Doran did nothing once Ser Willem died and Viserys sold his mother's crown,in order to survive. 

[Grissom]

Stannis hate thread. 

[dariopatke]

I also agree that Jon arranged it, because itbis a pure political move to show Tyrells where their place is and Robert doesn't care about that, Jon does. But still this arangement needs Kings approval.

Oh yes, from Viserys' POV they are dogs.

About Martells, Aerys' treatment of Ellia shouldnt impact on their relationship, they hate Tywin, Robert and co much more than little Dragons because they did not anything to them. Using that logic they will have no allies.

[John Doe]

7 hours ago, Darkbringer said:

He clearly does care. He gets annoyed that the loyalty of vassals is a matter of popularity instead of honour. He knows that he is not as charismatic as his brother. He just isn't going to change.

I mean by that thah while he does care to some degree, he considers himself in the right and is not conflicted about it or asking himself what's wrong with him as some people do in such a situation. 

[Lord_Ravenstone]

7 hours ago, Danelle said:

The point is the similarities between Stannis and Viserys. While I see your points about Dragonstone, I agree with GRRM's arguments and his position on the matter. If he says that Dragonstone was not meant as a slight, I believe him.  

Jon Arryn might have also been involved in the betrothal, after all he is the one who arranged the Robert/Cersei marriage.

Mel, since she has reasons to believe that a great battle is imminent, would likely come to KL if Stannis would have been and.

I don't know whether becoming Hand would please Stannis, he appears to be a man hard to please and perhaps once he became Hand he would not relish his position.

The OP suggested that both of them have a lifetime of grudges.

Exactly.

In regards to your comments about the actions of Ned, Jaime and Robert during the rebellion, to a certain extent I agree but from the point of view of Viserys, who was a young boy at the time and his mother did her best to protect him from Aerys' paranoia, they are the usurper and his dogs who murdered a benevolent king, a loving father and a devoted husband.

The main difference is that while Stannis has several issues, the people who feels that wronged him are few and doesn't really care for them.

Robert was not really loved by Stannis and he did not really love him. They cared about each pther but it was complicated.

The only person, who wronged him,  and Stannis seems to care about, was Renly.

But with Viserys, the situation is more personal. He is not angry because of a single incident, he is enraged because his family and subjects turned against him and his family.

This is not merely feeling that you deserve more, but being deprived of everything you ever had. 

 

As for the Martells, although it is off topic, I supposse that they did not really appreciate the way that Elia was treated.

Jaime mentions that when Prince Lewyn inquired about Princess Elia, Aerys gracelessly reminded him that he held Elia. 

Basically Aerys used Elia and his grandchildren as a mean to force the Martells to join his cause. When later, Queen Rhaella took Viserys and fled to the safety of Dragonstone, Elia and her children were not allowed to join them. The reason? Aerys was under the impression that Lewyn was a traitor and he needed Elia by his side, to ensure the loyalty of the Martells. Not to mention the whole situation with Rhaegar crowining Lyanna. So the Martells do not have many reasons to care for the Targaryens.But the most important fact is that the person responsible for the wellbeing of the exiled Targaryens, was Ser Willem and the Martells did arrange with him a betrotahl between Viserys and Arianne.

The big question is why Doran did nothing once Ser Willem died and Viserys sold his mother's crown,in order to survive. 

You can pretty much find two major characters and point to parallels between many of them 

for instance Stannis and Tyrion: 

"Both are second sons who are hated by the majority of the Seven Kingdoms and thought of as evil uncles to Joffrey who were plotting to usurp the crown themselves. The difference is Stannis knows Joffrey isn't his nephew, making him the rightful Head of House Baratheon. Tyrion is accused of poisoning Joffrey and found guilty, but was actually innocent. Both have terrible relationships with their siblings, though Tyrion at least had a good relationship with Jaime for most of his life, Stannis was never treated well. Both have brilliant minds and win great victories, but don't receive their due appreciation for this. Both show some respect for lower folk, with Tyrion this is because, being a dwarf, he holds sympathy for those in similar positions. Stannis shows more respect for the lower folk out of his obsession with giving everybody their due, regardless of social rank. "

 

[Jon's Queen Consort]

7 hours ago, Grissom said:

Stannis hate thread. 

QFT. The op may tried to hide it but it didn't work.

[John Doe]

1 hour ago, Lord_Ravenstone said:

You can pretty much find two major characters and point to parallels between many of them 

for instance Stannis and Tyrion: 

"Both are second sons who are hated by the majority of the Seven Kingdoms and thought of as evil uncles to Joffrey who were plotting to usurp the crown themselves. The difference is Stannis knows Joffrey isn't his nephew, making him the rightful Head of House Baratheon. Tyrion is accused of poisoning Joffrey and found guilty, but was actually innocent. Both have terrible relationships with their siblings, though Tyrion at least had a good relationship with Jaime for most of his life, Stannis was never treated well. Both have brilliant minds and win great victories, but don't receive their due appreciation for this. Both show some respect for lower folk, with Tyrion this is because, being a dwarf, he holds sympathy for those in similar positions. Stannis shows more respect for the lower folk out of his obsession with giving everybody their due, regardless of social rank. "

 

I wanna try it to. 

 

Dany and Sandor Clegane

 

- Both are hated by their siblings for, in their mind, taking something that should be theirs. Because of that, neither would step in if their sibling was to be killed. 

- Both had to look for a perspective far away from home because the rulership their changed hands and the new ruler wasn't fond of them, and are very bitter because of it

- Both have a special relationship with fire, and their lives were shaped by it

- Both have terrible accusations raised against them by their enemies

- Both compare themselves to animals very often

- Both came back from their supposed death