Euron the Abomination

[Blind Beth the Cat Lady]

20 minutes ago, DarkSister1001 said:

I would NOT put it past him to send others into the dangerous places and just watch through their eyes.  In fact, that's probably how he "survived" all those dangerous missions.  If others died while he was in their head that too would probably contribute to his insanity. 

Yeah. I mean in principal it's the same thing he did with the dragon horn.

[Lady Barbrey]

Howdy Darksister, I remember talking about the rusty hinges with you on Sly Wren's thread last year. I'm quite convinced it is Aeron's mind being forced open.

If I remember, we connected this to Hodor and to dragon horns. Dragon horns enter a dragon's mind to control it through "sound". They seemed to me to partly imitate what a skinchanger could do without an actual tool.

Hodor is very sensitive to thunder sometimes, and I had speculated that he had perhaps been skinchanged before Bran did so, making it easier for Bran to inadvertently skinchange him later. (According to Varamyr, once an animal has been skinchanged by anyone, a new skinchanger finds it an easier " skin" to wear). The thunder sound might remind him of the attempt on his brain, just as shrieking hinges remind Aeron. An initial skinchanging might in fact have contributed to Hodor's diminished faculties in the first place, but whatever the case, he had been acting "strangely" around the time of Bran's fall and subsequent attack - a comment never explained. I have wondered if he wasn't being skinchanged then, and unknowingly played some role in those initial events at Winterfell. 

Euron was said to always surround himself with 'freaks and fools' and latterly with 'mutes' he intentionally mutilated (reminding us of Varys's little birds - not an accidental connection I think). I always envision Munch's silent scream on the faces of those people as their minds are invaded, unable to actually scream, only hearing or feeling their own screams, or shrieks or thunder in their own heads. It seems absolutely obvious to me that Euron would have started this practice with his simple-minded brother Urri and then gone on to try it with Aeron. Aeron could well have fought him off at that point but not without the mind rape having started. 

Whatever the case, the metaphor of a rusty hinge shrieking as it is forced open would be exactly something one might think of if someone was forcing their way into your brain. 

This metaphor also might extend to the Wall if you think about it. It is a "hinge" of the world, according to Melisandre. And what is reputed to bring it down?  A horn. Sound. 

A mind susceptible to skinchanging (or a Wall susceptible to destruction) must have a point of entry, a hinged door, for the skinchanger to slip inside, and for dragons, for Hodor, for Aeron, for the dusky woman,( and perhaps for the Wall itself) the magic that allows them to do could be based on sound in reality or in the imaginations of the people/animals invaded. 

Hope this lends some support to this theory!

[DarkSister1001]

14 hours ago, Lady Barbrey said:

Howdy Darksister, I remember talking about the rusty hinges with you on Sly Wren's thread last year. I'm quite convinced it is Aeron's mind being forced open.

If I remember, we connected this to Hodor and to dragon horns. Dragon horns enter a dragon's mind to control it through "sound". They seemed to me to partly imitate what a skinchanger could do without an actual tool.

Hodor is very sensitive to thunder sometimes, and I had speculated that he had perhaps been skinchanged before Bran did so, making it easier for Bran to inadvertently skinchange him later. (According to Varamyr, once an animal has been skinchanged by anyone, a new skinchanger finds it an easier " skin" to wear). The thunder sound might remind him of the attempt on his brain, just as shrieking hinges remind Aeron. An initial skinchanging might in fact have contributed to Hodor's diminished faculties in the first place, but whatever the case, he had been acting "strangely" around the time of Bran's fall and subsequent attack - a comment never explained. I have wondered if he wasn't being skinchanged then, and unknowingly played some role in those initial events at Winterfell. 

Euron was said to always surround himself with 'freaks and fools' and latterly with 'mutes' he intentionally mutilated (reminding us of Varys's little birds - not an accidental connection I think). I always envision Munch's silent scream on the faces of those people as their minds are invaded, unable to actually scream, only hearing or feeling their own screams, or shrieks or thunder in their own heads. It seems absolutely obvious to me that Euron would have started this practice with his simple-minded brother Urri and then gone on to try it with Aeron. Aeron could well have fought him off at that point but not without the mind rape having started. 

Whatever the case, the metaphor of a rusty hinge shrieking as it is forced open would be exactly something one might think of if someone was forcing their way into your brain. 

This metaphor also might extend to the Wall if you think about it. It is a "hinge" of the world, according to Melisandre. And what is reputed to bring it down?  A horn. Sound. 

A mind susceptible to skinchanging (or a Wall susceptible to destruction) must have a point of entry, a hinged door, for the skinchanger to slip inside, and for dragons, for Hodor, for Aeron, for the dusky woman,( and perhaps for the Wall itself) the magic that allows them to do could be based on sound in reality or in the imaginations of the people/animals invaded. 

Hope this lends some support to this theory!

Hi!  I hope all is well.  I remember promising this theory some time ago, but with the site upgrades and life I waited longer than I intended.  You know how that goes.

I think you are spot on about Hodor.  I have always wondered why he was said to have been acting oddly but then it was never addressed again.  There is zero reason for the line about Hodor unless it's to come up again later.  He worked in the stables and Bran's assassin was said to have been hiding in the stables.  Could Hodor have found out the assassin was there and was made to look the other way? 

We speculated on the Bran re-read thread that a brush with death awakened the gifts.  BR could have known what was going to happen to Bran and needed it to bc "the hour is late and winter is coming".  He'd already spent too much time searching for others to help him and didn't have time for Bran's gift to awaken on it's own.  His fall/push sped up the process and that's why in Bran's coma dream when he thinks of Jaime the crow tells him to "put it away".  It served it's purpose, time to move on. 

And he could have very well known about the assassin and allowed it.  Sitting in his cave, still playing the Game.  He needed Bran to come to him.  Impossible with Ned, Cat & Robb still there.  How to you get a crippled boy to leave his home and make a perilous journey to you?  Take away all other options.

Jacked up on BR's part.  But that's how he rolls when the realm is threatened.  What's the entire world compared to one boy's legs?

I definitely think he practiced on Urri.  Thistle fought fiercely, but as a wildling she would have grown up knowing at least a little about skinchangers.  And she may have realized what Varamyr was trying.  And if not she was a grown woman, a fighter.  Aeron was young, impressionable and likely ignorant to what the gift was and what it could do.  He may have not realized what was happening.  It makes me think of Egg.  The way his brother would sneak into his room and threaten to castrate him.  If Euron held a knife or otherwise threatened Aeron he could have made Aeron open himself up to the practices.  Doubly scary.

Yes, the hinge of the world.  I couldn't recall who said that, thank you.  I love the sound connections you've made.  Very helpful indeed.  And isn't it interesting that this hinge is magical? 

[Jak Scaletongue]

15 hours ago, Lady Barbrey said:

he had been acting "strangely" around the time of Bran's fall and subsequent attack - a comment never explained.

20 minutes ago, DarkSister1001 said:

I think you are spot on about Hodor.  I have always wondered why he was said to have been acting oddly but then it was never addressed again.  There is zero reason for the line about Hodor unless it's to come up again later.  He worked in the stables and Bran's assassin was said to have been hiding in the stables.  Could Hodor have found out the assassin was there and was made to look the other way? 

I always thought that the following quote kinda answered that:

Quote

Hallis Mollen looked abashed. "Between the horses Lord Eddard took south and them we sent north to the Night's Watch, the stalls were half-empty. It were no great trick to hide from the stableboys. Could be Hodor saw him, the talk is that boy's been acting queer, but simple as he is …" Hal shook his head. - GOT Catelyn III

I always just thought the "queerness" was Hodor trying to let someone know someone weird was in the stables.  

But I could have sworn there was something (an SSM or something) about Hodor having been able to talk normally at one point, then *something* happened and now all he can do is "hodor" - I can't find it though (and I've been looking for a few hours!) so I'm not sure where I read it.  Maybe it was just a theory.  Initially (before I failed to find what I was thinking about), that's where I would have pinned a skinchanging attempt into Walder/Hodor.  Whatever it may have been that changed him from a "normal" boy (I'm not sure whether he was still "simple" before, but able to talk anyway) to a "hodoring" boy seems like the best "hinge" in my mind (but of course, if it's all in my head then it's kinda irrelevant!).

 

15 hours ago, Lady Barbrey said:

I always envision Munch's silent scream on the faces of those people as their minds are invaded, unable to actually scream, only hearing or feeling their own screams, or shrieks or thunder in their own heads.

People with no tongues can scream out loud, they just can't form words.  Their vocal chords still work, which is all you need to scream (or make any noises, really) but you need a working tongue to form those sounds into words.  If he damages their vocal chords, he doesn't need to take their tongues, if he takes their tongues he doesn't need to damage vocal chords (and even Euron needs at least some of his sailors to make "heads up" noises, just in case....that just seems like common sense on a ship...).

As a real-world example - have you ever had a numb tongue from a dentist visit (or got into the orajel when you were a kid? We did that to a cousin once...it was hilarious!)?  It's very, very difficult to make words that make sense but all the sounds come out fine. 

 

[DarkSister1001]

6 minutes ago, Jak Scaletongue said:

People with no tongues can scream out loud, they just can't form words.  Their vocal chords still work, which is all you need to scream (or make any noises, really) but you need a working tongue to form those sounds into words.  If he damages their vocal chords, he doesn't need to take their tongues, if he takes their tongues he doesn't need to damage vocal chords (and even Euron needs at least some of his sailors to make "heads up" noises, just in case....that just seems like common sense on a ship...).

As a real-world example - have you ever had a numb tongue from a dentist visit (or got into the orajel when you were a kid? We did that to a cousin once...it was hilarious!)?  It's very, very difficult to make words that make sense but all the sounds come out fine. 

 

Like the sounds Ilyn Payne makes when he's working with Jaime? 

[Jak Scaletongue]

 ^^ Exactly!

[Tyrell_like_Squirrel]

On 3/10/2016 at 10:57 AM, DarkSister1001 said:

 

Thanks, yeah he's a bad dude.  I know GRRM likes his grays but I think this guy is black through and through.  I had not seen that theory.  Is it on this forum?

 

Here's the link to the essay https://madeinmyr.wordpress.com/2015/02/21/a-black-eye-shining-with-malice-thoughts-concerning-eurons-black-magic-and-potential-dark-powers/  it's a really fun read! At least, as far as mental slavery and torture can be "fun." 

Concerning Aeron and the iron hinge, while I certainly think Euron could have skinchanged Aeron, I still feel like there's some kind of sexual component.

Consider when Victarion visits Euron at the end of Feast. Euron is nakey, and Vicatrion just kind of brushes this off like it's no thing. While characters aren't necessarily put off by nakedness in ASOIAF, it's a little skeevy that Vic just accepts it. As if he's used to it. Plus, a lot of Aeron's inner thoughts sound like PTSD from abuse.

What would be REALLY fucked up is if Euron skinchanged into Aeron and made him...participate? *shudders* 

[The Arthur Smith]

28 minutes ago, Tyrell_like_Squirrel said:

Consider when Victarion visits Euron at the end of Feast. Euron is nakey, and Vicatrion just kind of brushes this off like it's no thing. While characters aren't necessarily put off by nakedness in ASOIAF, it's a little skeevy that Vic just accepts it. As if he's used to it.

It's more of the opposite here. Vic isn't used to looking at Euron's body. Vic contemplated there's something disturbing and obscene about Euron's nakedness and told him to cover himself as Vic glanced away from the sight. Odd considering guys are used to see each other naked in general, especially someone like Vic. I believed it's mainly because Vic don't want to be reminded that his saltwife slept with Euron and may prefer him over Vic. After all, it was stated that Euron is good looking while Vic is more of a brute.

28 minutes ago, Tyrell_like_Squirrel said:

What would be REALLY fucked up is if Euron skinchanged into Aeron and made him...participate? *shudders* 

Would it nearly disturbing than Euron warging/skinchange Dusky Woman and screwing Vic? 

[DarkSister1001]

2 hours ago, Jak Scaletongue said:

Hallis Mollen looked abashed. "Between the horses Lord Eddard took south and them we sent north to the Night's Watch, the stalls were half-empty. It were no great trick to hide from the stableboys. Could be Hodor saw him, the talk is that boy's been acting queer, but simple as he is …" Hal shook his head. - GOT Catelyn III

 

Thanks for this.  I had forgotten the entire quote.  That settles it then, Hodor saw something.  I'm certain of it.  But why couldn't he show anyone?  What stopped him?  He can follow directions easily enough.  He's not mentally challenged.  He's just speech impaired.  Like when Bran tries to talk when he's in the bird and it comes out as a sqwak and when he tries to speak as Hodor all that comes out is "Hodor". 

Wex Pyke was born a mute but after some time he was able to communicate without speech.  Hodor is intentionally kept in this state. 

47 minutes ago, The Arthur Smith said:

It's more of the opposite here. Vic isn't used to looking at Euron's body. Vic contemplated there's something disturbing and obscene about Euron's nakedness and told him to cover himself as Vic glanced away from the sight. Odd considering guys are used to see each other naked in general, especially someone like Vic. I believed it's mainly because Vic don't want to be reminded that his saltwife slept with Euron and may prefer him over Vic. After all, it was stated that Euron is good looking while Vic is more of a brute.

Would it nearly disturbing as Euron warging/skinchange Dusky Woman and screwing Vic? 

I'd say it was more likely Euron's nature that disturbed Vic in this scene.  It was the brashness of it.  I don't think he had an issue with the nakedness per se, but an issue with Euron being that way. 

1 hour ago, Tyrell_like_Squirrel said:

Here's the link to the essay https://madeinmyr.wordpress.com/2015/02/21/a-black-eye-shining-with-malice-thoughts-concerning-eurons-black-magic-and-potential-dark-powers/  it's a really fun read! At least, as far as mental slavery and torture can be "fun." 

Concerning Aeron and the iron hinge, while I certainly think Euron could have skinchanged Aeron, I still feel like there's some kind of sexual component.

Consider when Victarion visits Euron at the end of Feast. Euron is nakey, and Vicatrion just kind of brushes this off like it's no thing. While characters aren't necessarily put off by nakedness in ASOIAF, it's a little skeevy that Vic just accepts it. As if he's used to it. Plus, a lot of Aeron's inner thoughts sound like PTSD from abuse.

What would be REALLY fucked up is if Euron skinchanged into Aeron and made him...participate? *shudders* 

I never really got the sexual part of it.  To me it was more about dominance and inciting fear.  True, that could be sexual.  IMHO given this world where we see rape without batting and eye but the magical elements are more hush-hush, it seemed to be the more logical conclusion.  I'll give that a read.  All-in-all, that mofo is scary and up to some bad, bad stuff.

ETA:  They definitely sound like PTSD.  Flashbacks, fear, nightmares.  I would like to know what really happened when he drowned. 

IDK if "fucked up" really does it justice.   Rape is horrific.  Mind rape is horrific.  I don't think there's a word to describe a combination of the two.  Except maybe evil.  But yeah, shudders fo sho.

[Jak Scaletongue]

25 minutes ago, DarkSister1001 said:

Thanks for this.  I had forgotten the entire quote.  That settles it then, Hodor saw something.  I'm certain of it.  But why couldn't he show anyone?  What stopped him?  He can follow directions easily enough.  He's not mentally challenged.  He's just speech impaired.  Like when Bran tries to talk when he's in the bird and it comes out as a sqwak and when he tries to speak as Hodor all that comes out is "Hodor". 

It's possible Hodor tried to drag someone to the stables so he could show them, but he kept getting brushed off because there was so much other stuff going on and some simple-minded stableboy can't possibly have anything of importance to show anyone, right?  "Yeah, in a minute Hodor, I just need to go see Maester Luwin about this first."

Not being able to say anything but "hodor" wouldn't really help him emphasis just how important his information is, no matter how loud he "hodors" no one is going to think it's important, because it's "just" Hodor.  They look at it afterwards as a "hmm...maybe that's why he was acting strange" but *while* he's acting strange no one bothers to takes any notice of his odd behaviour.  Unfortunately, Hodor isn't the type to just pick 'em up and take them right where he wants them!

[DarkSister1001]

5 minutes ago, Jak Scaletongue said:

It's possible Hodor tried to drag someone to the stables so he could show them, but he kept getting brushed off because there was so much other stuff going on and some simple-minded stableboy can't possibly have anything of importance to show anyone, right?  "Yeah, in a minute Hodor, I just need to go see Maester Luwin about this first."

Not being able to say anything but "hodor" wouldn't really help him emphasis just how important his information is, no matter how loud he "hodors" no one is going to think it's important, because it's "just" Hodor.  They look at it afterwards as a "hmm...maybe that's why he was acting strange" but *while* he's acting strange no one bothers to takes any notice of his odd behaviour.  Unfortunately, Hodor isn't the type to just pick 'em up and take them right where he wants them!

That would be the only logical reason I could come up with as well. 

[Tyrell_like_Squirrel]

7 hours ago, DarkSister1001 said:

 

I never really got the sexual part of it.  To me it was more about dominance and inciting fear.  True, that could be sexual.  IMHO given this world where we see rape without batting and eye but the magical elements are more hush-hush, it seemed to be the more logical conclusion.  I'll give that a read.  All-in-all, that mofo is scary and up to some bad, bad stuff.

ETA:  They definitely sound like PTSD.  Flashbacks, fear, nightmares.  I would like to know what really happened when he drowned. 

IDK if "fucked up" really does it justice.   Rape is horrific.  Mind rape is horrific.  I don't think there's a word to describe a combination of the two.  Except maybe evil.  But yeah, shudders fo sho.

It might not be sexual, if anything that could be a red herring to distract us from mind rape. Certainly either or both would be probably the most disgusting thing any villain we've seen do in this series. For me, Martin seems to keep amping up his baddies. Cersei to Joffrey. Joffrey to Tywin. Tywin to Roose. Roose to Ramsay. I think the only person capable of upping Ramsay is Euron, especially if the theories of his abomination hold true. I firmly believe Euron is going to be the worst of the human bad guys before the Others arrive. 

It would be amazing if Euron was brought down by his own hubris. Like, if he tries to help the Others and they just kill him lol

[Lady Barbrey]

8 hours ago, Jak Scaletongue said:

It's possible Hodor tried to drag someone to the stables so he could show them, but he kept getting brushed off because there was so much other stuff going on and some simple-minded stableboy can't possibly have anything of importance to show anyone, right?  "Yeah, in a minute Hodor, I just need to go see Maester Luwin about this first."

Not being able to say anything but "hodor" wouldn't really help him emphasis just how important his information is, no matter how loud he "hodors" no one is going to think it's important, because it's "just" Hodor.  They look at it afterwards as a "hmm...maybe that's why he was acting strange" but *while* he's acting strange no one bothers to takes any notice of his odd behaviour.  Unfortunately, Hodor isn't the type to just pick 'em up and take them right where he wants them!

I knew about that quote when I wrote the spec about Hodor. It could be that, but it still doesn't satisfy, particularly in light of Hodor's other peculiarities. His abject fear of the crypts the night Ned's apparent ghost visits, for instance. Martin says that was a one off. Hodor wasn't scared of the crypts before or after. Hodor going crazy in thunderstorms. Loud noises. He's got certain sensitivities for a reason, perhaps to do with his initial injury, perhaps not (btw I think it's old Nan who says he was once normal, I remember it too though can't say from where). Anyway, because of the crypt incident, I think he's sensitive to magic/supernatural, and somehow that's connected to an incident involving thunder or thunder-like sound, and both these things might be connected to why he was acting strangely at a time when Bran was being initiated into greenseeing. I made an (admittently long) jump to him perhaps being skinchanged at that time. If he had been, his behaviour would be odd because it wasn't Hodor. I'm still dissatisfied with many of the events at that time, particularly the dagger scenario with Joffrey. Now that we know Bran can skinchange a human, that Varamyr could to an extent, that Euron probably is, it makes me re-evaluate everything. Perhaps Varys really is doing something like this with tongueless children. Perhaps Bloodraven skinchanged Coldhands, a corpse - that would take some doing but the man needs legs while stuck in his tree, and a skinchange/necromancy combo might be the ticket. The full extent of the magic that's been going on behind the scenes till now, and the powers still to come, are going to be fully revealed in the next two books; I'm hoping it will all be kind of awesome!

As for screaming, I was thinking more in their heads. Child mutes that just howl aren't likely to be taken any more seriously than Hodor as reasoning beings. 

[Lady Barbrey]

13 hours ago, DarkSister1001 said:

Hi!  I hope all is well.  I remember promising this theory some time ago, but with the site upgrades and life I waited longer than I intended.  You know how that goes.

I think you are spot on about Hodor.  I have always wondered why he was said to have been acting oddly but then it was never addressed again.  There is zero reason for the line about Hodor unless it's to come up again later.  He worked in the stables and Bran's assassin was said to have been hiding in the stables.  Could Hodor have found out the assassin was there and was made to look the other way? 

We speculated on the Bran re-read thread that a brush with death awakened the gifts.  BR could have known what was going to happen to Bran and needed it to bc "the hour is late and winter is coming".  He'd already spent too much time searching for others to help him and didn't have time for Bran's gift to awaken on it's own.  His fall/push sped up the process and that's why in Bran's coma dream when he thinks of Jaime the crow tells him to "put it away".  It served it's purpose, time to move on. 

And he could have very well known about the assassin and allowed it.  Sitting in his cave, still playing the Game.  He needed Bran to come to him.  Impossible with Ned, Cat & Robb still there.  How to you get a crippled boy to leave his home and make a perilous journey to you?  Take away all other options.

Jacked up on BR's part.  But that's how he rolls when the realm is threatened.  What's the entire world compared to one boy's legs?

I definitely think he practiced on Urri.  Thistle fought fiercely, but as a wildling she would have grown up knowing at least a little about skinchangers.  And she may have realized what Varamyr was trying.  And if not she was a grown woman, a fighter.  Aeron was young, impressionable and likely ignorant to what the gift was and what it could do.  He may have not realized what was happening.  It makes me think of Egg.  The way his brother would sneak into his room and threaten to castrate him.  If Euron held a knife or otherwise threatened Aeron he could have made Aeron open himself up to the practices.  Doubly scary.

Yes, the hinge of the world.  I couldn't recall who said that, thank you.  I love the sound connections you've made.  Very helpful indeed.  And isn't it interesting that this hinge is magical? 

Yes, it's very possible that he needed to speed up Bran's journey. I wonder if Bran was always the 'one' or if someone like Euron wasn't considered an initial candidate before being disposed of. It seems odd that such a big job is going to be left to a seven-nine year old with very little time to fully train him. 

It might be interesting to trace back all the marks Bran had to hit in order to get to the cave in order to see what BR might have had to manipulate. The 'helpers', such as Summer, the 'fortunate fall', the Reed children, Hodor, Theon taking Winterfell, Coldhands, the Children. 

 

[Lady Barbrey]

1 hour ago, Tyrell_like_Squirrel said:

It might not be sexual, if anything that could be a red herring to distract us from mind rape. Certainly either or both would be probably the most disgusting thing any villain we've seen do in this series. For me, Martin seems to keep amping up his baddies. Cersei to Joffrey. Joffrey to Tywin. Tywin to Roose. Roose to Ramsay. I think the only person capable of upping Ramsay is Euron, especially if the theories of his abomination hold true. I firmly believe Euron is going to be the worst of the human bad guys before the Others arrive. 

It would be amazing if Euron was brought down by his own hubris. Like, if he tries to help the Others and they just kill him lol

That's exactly what I thought - that sexual rape might be a red herring. I too think Euron is the biggest bad before we encounter the Others, and it's not incidental he has powers that might rival Bran's now that Bran's story will resume and gather speed. It reminds me of something from physics: a force that needs an equal and opposable force. 

[DarkSister1001]

 

11 hours ago, Tyrell_like_Squirrel said:

It might not be sexual, if anything that could be a red herring to distract us from mind rape. Certainly either or both would be probably the most disgusting thing any villain we've seen do in this series. For me, Martin seems to keep amping up his baddies. Cersei to Joffrey. Joffrey to Tywin. Tywin to Roose. Roose to Ramsay. I think the only person capable of upping Ramsay is Euron, especially if the theories of his abomination hold true. I firmly believe Euron is going to be the worst of the human bad guys before the Others arrive. 

It would be amazing if Euron was brought down by his own hubris. Like, if he tries to help the Others and they just kill him lol

I think the idea that it's a red herring.  And I certainly think there will be an Iron Born/Others hook up at some point.  You don't go around killing people and reviving them without meeting the masters of necromancy. 

9 hours ago, Lady Barbrey said:

I knew about that quote when I wrote the spec about Hodor. It could be that, but it still doesn't satisfy, particularly in light of Hodor's other peculiarities. His abject fear of the crypts the night Ned's apparent ghost visits, for instance. Martin says that was a one off. Hodor wasn't scared of the crypts before or after. Hodor going crazy in thunderstorms. Loud noises. He's got certain sensitivities for a reason, perhaps to do with his initial injury, perhaps not (btw I think it's old Nan who says he was once normal, I remember it too though can't say from where). Anyway, because of the crypt incident, I think he's sensitive to magic/supernatural, and somehow that's connected to an incident involving thunder or thunder-like sound, and both these things might be connected to why he was acting strangely at a time when Bran was being initiated into greenseeing. I made an (admittently long) jump to him perhaps being skinchanged at that time. If he had been, his behaviour would be odd because it wasn't Hodor. I'm still dissatisfied with many of the events at that time, particularly the dagger scenario with Joffrey. Now that we know Bran can skinchange a human, that Varamyr could to an extent, that Euron probably is, it makes me re-evaluate everything. Perhaps Varys really is doing something like this with tongueless children. Perhaps Bloodraven skinchanged Coldhands, a corpse - that would take some doing but the man needs legs while stuck in his tree, and a skinchange/necromancy combo might be the ticket. The full extent of the magic that's been going on behind the scenes till now, and the powers still to come, are going to be fully revealed in the next two books; I'm hoping it will all be kind of awesome!

As for screaming, I was thinking more in their heads. Child mutes that just howl aren't likely to be taken any more seriously than Hodor as reasoning beings. 

Just re-read that chapter in GoT when Arya overhears Varys and IIlyrio.  Illyrio calls Varys a "wizard" and a "sorcerer".  Why would he do that when we're told how much Varys hates magic?  I supposed his ability to change his appearance as well as he does could be just skills in mummery.  OR there's a few other "magical" ways to change ones appearance..glamours and the Faceless Men. 

You might also like this breakdown of sounds and music http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/125401-the-winged-wolf-a-bran-stark-re-read-project-part-ii-asos-adwd/&do=findComment&comment=7157836

9 hours ago, Lady Barbrey said:

Yes, it's very possible that he needed to speed up Bran's journey. I wonder if Bran was always the 'one' or if someone like Euron wasn't considered an initial candidate before being disposed of. It seems odd that such a big job is going to be left to a seven-nine year old with very little time to fully train him. 

It might be interesting to trace back all the marks Bran had to hit in order to get to the cave in order to see what BR might have had to manipulate. The 'helpers', such as Summer, the 'fortunate fall', the Reed children, Hodor, Theon taking Winterfell, Coldhands, the Children. 

 

I don't think he was always "the one".  I think BR has been searching a LONG time and tried all sorts of others, like Euron.  But like Varys, I think he starts with children.  Young, innocent, impressionable.  I think that's why they have "short years". 

[Sly Wren]

On March 7, 2016 at 10:55 AM, DarkSister1001 said:

Quote

Thankfully there was no third time and the water never got up past Hodor’s waist, though the Reeds were in it to their chests.  And before long they were on the island, climbing the steps to the holdfast.  The door was still stout, though its heavy oak planks had warped over the years and it could no longer be closed completely.  Meera shoved it open all the way, the rusted iron hinges screaming.  The lintel was low.  “Duck down, Hodor,” Bran said, and he did, but not enough to keep Bran from hitting his head.  “That hurt,” he complained.

ASoS, Chapter 40, Bran

Bran should not be there, he should be in Winterfell as there must always be a Stark in Winterfell. 

Okay--first up: I read through this a few days ago and only now have time to say what I wanted to say from the start, which is: Well Done!! This is splendid. I remember your talking about this a while back on another thread--very glad you fleshed it out. 

Second up: I need to get through the rest of the thread, but the above struck me: I think that hinge is not just "Bran shouldn't be there." This is the tower where Bran skinchanges Hodor--which means the hinges potentially foreshadow what Bran is going to do. And that it is horrible for Hodor.

Plus, have you read @Voice Warg-Blocking theory re: Alysanne? I think it might apply here: they are entering the holdfast  Alysanne stayed at for one night. On her trip north to mess with the Wall, the Watch, and the NIghtfort. Potentially disrupting the power of the warg-based Starks. And this is where the most powerful of the Stark wargs breaks into a human mind. Seems like Martin is telling us something potentially.

Am also wondering if this all has ties to Patchface--if his mind was "opened" and instead of being just traumatized, he was "broken," like those Bran sees impaled on spikes. 

Again--well done! And now I need to read the rest of the thread.

[Sly Wren]

21 hours ago, Lady Barbrey said:

Now that we know Bran can skinchange a human, that Varamyr could to an extent, that Euron probably is, it makes me re-evaluate everything. Perhaps Varys really is doing something like this with tongueless children. Perhaps Bloodraven skinchanged Coldhands, a corpse - that would take some doing but the man needs legs while stuck in his tree, and a skinchange/necromancy combo might be the ticket. The full extent of the magic that's been going on behind the scenes till now, and the powers still to come, are going to be fully revealed in the next two books; I'm hoping it will all be kind of awesome!

Ultra-super awesome, yes (Welcome back, by the way!!).

On Varys--that seems to me more like Illyn Payne's weird loyalty to the Lannisters. But given Illyria's statements about the Lord of Light in Dany's first chapter, the idea the he and Varys are into magics has to be on the table. And that could easily include manipulation. Plus, as others have noted before me, he calls them "birds." If I'm remembering right, he called them "mice" in Essos, yes? Changed to birds in Westeros, home of the Singers. Seems like something's up there.

As for Coldhands, I buy others' interp (for now) that he's like Beric. We've been talking about it a bit here. As well as the possibility that Mel is like both Coldhands and Beric--a shell of a former self, with only traces of memory of that former self. All that's left is a kind of fanatic focus on one's main task: Beric focuses on purging the Riverlands; Mel on the Lord of Light' Cat on Revenge.

And that might fit with @DarkSister1001's argument re: the Ironborn. The fanaticism that Damphair embraces. . . if the wighting and skin changing are somehow connected. . . Maybe. 

[Lady Barbrey]

1 hour ago, Sly Wren said:

Okay--first up: I read through this a few days ago and only now have time to say what I wanted to say from the start, which is: Well Done!! This is splendid. I remember your talking about this a while back on another thread--very glad you fleshed it out. 

Second up: I need to get through the rest of the thread, but the above struck me: I think that hinge is not just "Bran shouldn't be there." This is the tower where Bran skinchanges Hodor--which means the hinges potentially foreshadow what Bran is going to do. And that it is horrible for Hodor.

Plus, have you read @Voice Warg-Blocking theory re: Alysanne? I think it might apply here: they are entering the holdfast  Alysanne stayed at for one night. On her trip north to mess with the Wall, the Watch, and the NIghtfort. Potentially disrupting the power of the warg-based Starks. And this is where the most powerful of the Stark wargs breaks into a human mind. Seems like Martin is telling us something potentially.

Am also wondering if this all has ties to Patchface--if his mind was "opened" and instead of being just traumatized, he was "broken," like those Bran sees impaled on spikes. 

Again--well done! And now I need to read the rest of the thread.

I've just realized it's on an island. Remember I talked about identifying First Men magical places in Westeros by their similarity to the Fisher Queen's island castle from the Worldbook?  I found eight but thought there should be a ninth as nine is the FM magical number.  This might be it. I have to read that whole section again. You've been saying for some time, Sly Wren, that there's something up with the Nightfort and the visit.  Good Queen Alysanne's historical counterpart is Good Queen Eleanor, famous for her land 'gifts' (with strings attached), and for re-burying King Arthur's bones ostensibly found at Glastonbury (historical counterpart to Winterfell). I thought she might have messed with the Last Hero's bones in the Winterfell crypts but there's more going on, isn't there?  I will definitely read Voice's post. 

[Lady Barbrey]

13 hours ago, DarkSister1001 said:

 

I think the idea that it's a red herring.  And I certainly think there will be an Iron Born/Others hook up at some point.  You don't go around killing people and reviving them without meeting the masters of necromancy. 

Just re-read that chapter in GoT when Arya overhears Varys and IIlyrio.  Illyrio calls Varys a "wizard" and a "sorcerer".  Why would he do that when we're told how much Varys hates magic?  I supposed his ability to change his appearance as well as he does could be just skills in mummery.  OR there's a few other "magical" ways to change ones appearance..glamours and the Faceless Men. 

You might also like this breakdown of sounds and music http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/125401-the-winged-wolf-a-bran-stark-re-read-project-part-ii-asos-adwd/&do=findComment&comment=7157836

I don't think he was always "the one".  I think BR has been searching a LONG time and tried all sorts of others, like Euron.  But like Varys, I think he starts with children.  Young, innocent, impressionable.  I think that's why they have "short years". 

Thanks for tge link, Darksister. Ive just glanced at it and it looks exciting!  So will go back to it. 

One line, I think it was Evita's, struck me in that brief visit. She said if Jojen is the greendreamer, and Bloodraven is called the last Greenseer by the Children, then what does that make Bran?

I immediately thought Green-" speaker". Reminded me of Ender of Ender's Game becoming the Speaker for the Dead. Tied in with those glimpses of Bran from the trailer looking like he might communicate with the NightvKing, and those whispers Theon heard, and possible Bran interventions in dreams. Will Bran become the Speaker for the Westerosi dead and all those that have been silenced?  Kinda cool. I'll have to go back to that thread with a cuppa and cosy in. 

Yes, all those greenseers on icy spikes makes me think you are quite right. Some of them are Bloodraven's failed attempts, or they found their way into that trap on their own? (Could this await another potential like Sweetrobin?). Makes me wonder: did Euron make that dream journey north too, survived it and was corrupted by the Others?  It's possible he already formed some kind of bargain without having to physically go North?