devilish Posted March 11, 2016 Share Posted March 11, 2016 Scenario: Robert B rebellion Assumptions_1 : R+L=J Assumptions_2 : Rickard and Brandon are alive Assumptions_3 : Rhaegar legitimise Jon Lets say that Brandon and Rickard never ride down to Winterfell but instead send emissaries there. Aerys burns these emissaries alive, ask Jon Arryn to kill Robert and Ned and the appoint the Boltons as Lord Paramount of the North, something Roose refuse to accept (mostly because he's acknowledge that its a death sentence). Brandon, Rickard and Robert beat Aerys. Brandon and Rickard go to the Tower of Joy however when Arthur Dayne notices that Robert's best mate isn't there he decides to confesses everything instead of fighting. Lyanna's son is actually Rhaegar's, the union is a union made up of love and that Rhaegar legitimised the boy and appointed him as heir. Arthur give the Starks a choice, they could either bend the knee to this boy and promise to defend his birth right as he promised to do or else they would have to fight against him to the death. Lyanna confirms Arthur's story before dying How would the story fold? Jon Targeryan has a bigger claim to the throne than Robert and he's a Stark. Unlike Ned Rickard seem to be quite ambitious and Brandon wouldn't mind facing Robert B in battle. However the land has bleeded enough and Robert B had proved to be quite an ally. Also lets say you opt for a war. Who would side with whom and who will win? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kal-L Posted March 11, 2016 Share Posted March 11, 2016 So basically they team-up with Robert against Targaryens in a war that led the deaths of thousands including Rhaegar's first born son and heir and then after having made Robert the King and swore fealty, they betrayed him and put "the produce" of the romance that doomed the realm ? Hopefully Dorne isn't part of their realm... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
devilish Posted March 11, 2016 Author Share Posted March 11, 2016 20 minutes ago, Kal-L said: So basically they team-up with Robert against Targaryens in a war that led the deaths of thousands including Rhaegar's first born son and heir and then after having made Robert the King and swore fealty, they betrayed him and put "the produce" of the romance that doomed the realm ? Hopefully Dorne isn't part of their realm... I am asking mate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kal-L Posted March 11, 2016 Share Posted March 11, 2016 Just now, devilish said: I am asking mate. Sorry I didn't read the question. Dorne would not fight imo, Lannister would fight for Robert if they learn they can have a Lannister queen. I don't think the Vale would help the North, I dare say after having swore fealty to him they would be more likely to fight for Robert (I doubt they would be impress by Rickard's greediness). The North could have the Reach by making betrothal between Margaery and Jon. At the end you'd have North + Reach + Riverland (maybe) vs Stormland + Vale + Westerland. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobOsevens Posted March 11, 2016 Share Posted March 11, 2016 1 hour ago, devilish said: Brandon and Rickard go to the Tower of Joy however when Arthur Dayne notices that Robert's best mate isn't there he decides to confesses everything instead of fighting. Why would Arthur Dayne confess everything to Rickard and Brandon and not Ned? If Lyanna chose to go with Rhaegar and loved him she would tell him that Ned could be trusted, probably more so than Brandon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
devilish Posted March 11, 2016 Author Share Posted March 11, 2016 9 minutes ago, RobOsevens said: Why would Arthur Dayne confess everything to Rickard and Brandon and not Ned? If Lyanna chose to go with Rhaegar and loved him she would tell him that Ned could be trusted, probably more so than Brandon. Ned and Robert were close. I doubt that Brandon was as close to Robert as Ned was Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobOsevens Posted March 11, 2016 Share Posted March 11, 2016 Just now, devilish said: Ned and Robert were close. I doubt that Brandon was as close to Robert as Ned was I understand that I still don't see why that changes what Dayne would do. 1 - he is following Rhaegar's orders. All the KG fight to their deaths. 2 - If Lyanna loved Rhaegar (I think she did or at least wasnt raped held against her will) they must have spoke about their families and the war that was going on. It seems as though Lyanna and Ned had a good relationship so Rhaegar and his KG would know that. I don't see why Dayne would abandon his orders / oath to Rhaegar because of Rickard and Brandon vs Ned Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Viserys Targaryen IV Posted March 11, 2016 Share Posted March 11, 2016 If Brandon and Rickon had not been murdered by Aerys, then Rhaegar would have had time to reach out to the Starks and explain the situation that led to him and Lyanna running off. In that case there is a good chance that the Starks agree to support Rhaegar for the Throne against his father. And a good chance that the war does not happen at all. Rhaegar strolls into King's Landing and calls for a Grand Council and has his father detained. Rhaegar now has the support of the North, The Riverlands, Dorne, most likely the Westerlands and the Vale. No way the Reach stands against that. Really only Robert is pissed, because of Lyanna but I think he could have been satisfied (through Royal favor and Tywin agreeing to marry his beautiful daughter to Robert). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
purple-eyes Posted March 12, 2016 Share Posted March 12, 2016 10 hours ago, King Viserys Targaryen IV said: If Brandon and Rickon had not been murdered by Aerys, then Rhaegar would have had time to reach out to the Starks and explain the situation that led to him and Lyanna running off. In that case there is a good chance that the Starks agree to support Rhaegar for the Throne against his father. And a good chance that the war does not happen at all. Rhaegar strolls into King's Landing and calls for a Grand Council and has his father detained. Rhaegar now has the support of the North, The Riverlands, Dorne, most likely the Westerlands and the Vale. No way the Reach stands against that. Really only Robert is pissed, because of Lyanna but I think he could have been satisfied (through Royal favor and Tywin agreeing to marry his beautiful daughter to Robert). Sounds good. There was at least one or two months between their eloping and murdering of stark. Why did not rhaegar do as you suggested? Are you too smart or he is too dumb? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shokktrooper Posted March 12, 2016 Share Posted March 12, 2016 I don't see why there would be a war. As I understand it, Robert fought his rebellion in order to get Lyanna back, and if he knew that Lyanna went to Rhaegar on her own accord, there's nothing he could really do. In this situation everyone would just bend the knee to Rhaegar's heir. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veloknight Posted March 12, 2016 Share Posted March 12, 2016 Yeah, Robert's Rebellion would be Rhaegar's Rebellion, if a war happened at all. Which, I think, is probably the coalition he was trying to create in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMC Posted March 12, 2016 Share Posted March 12, 2016 11 hours ago, King Viserys Targaryen IV said: If Brandon and Rickon had not been murdered by Aerys, then Rhaegar would have had time to reach out to the Starks and explain the situation that led to him and Lyanna running off. In that case there is a good chance that the Starks agree to support Rhaegar for the Throne against his father. And a good chance that the war does not happen at all. Rhaegar strolls into King's Landing and calls for a Grand Council and has his father detained. Rhaegar now has the support of the North, The Riverlands, Dorne, most likely the Westerlands and the Vale. No way the Reach stands against that. Really only Robert is pissed, because of Lyanna but I think he could have been satisfied (through Royal favor and Tywin agreeing to marry his beautiful daughter to Robert). I agree with most of this until the end basically. First - would Dorne still support Rhaegar? Can't see Oberyn being a happy camper. Second, and more importantly, Robert just got totally betrayed not only by Rhaegar but, basically, by all the Starks. That would seem to put Arryn in a very precarious position. Which ward does he support? I'm frankly not sure, and that creates a domino effect - since Hoster didn't seem to be willing to get off his ass until Jon agreed to marry Lysa along with the (still presumably) Stark/Catelyn nuptials. I don't think it's really clear who aligns with whom in such an arrangement, and I would bet all the gold in you know where Tywin would sit it out. Really opens things up to more of a Wot5K scenario. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrinceHenryris Posted March 12, 2016 Share Posted March 12, 2016 2 hours ago, dmc515 said: I agree with most of this until the end basically. First - would Dorne still support Rhaegar? Can't see Oberyn being a happy camper. Second, and more importantly, Robert just got totally betrayed not only by Rhaegar but, basically, by all the Starks. That would seem to put Arryn in a very precarious position. Which ward does he support? I'm frankly not sure, and that creates a domino effect - since Hoster didn't seem to be willing to get off his ass until Jon agreed to marry Lysa along with the (still presumably) Stark/Catelyn nuptials. I don't think it's really clear who aligns with whom in such an arrangement, and I would bet all the gold in you know where Tywin would sit it out. Really opens things up to more of a Wot5K scenario. I don't see Dorne as a problem for a few reasons: 1) Aegon (Elia's son) is still heir to the Iron Throne; 2) Elia's health (more kids = potential death); 3) Dornish sexual mores are more liberal than the rest of Westeroos, Rhaeghar taking a paramour would not be out of the question especially when you consider Elia's health; and 4) Despite Oberyn's reputation, he followed his brother's lead. If Doran joined the rebels, Oberyn would. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kal-L Posted March 12, 2016 Share Posted March 12, 2016 18 hours ago, King Viserys Targaryen IV said: If Brandon and Rickon had not been murdered by Aerys, then Rhaegar would have had time to reach out to the Starks and explain the situation that led to him and Lyanna running off. How the death of two vassals instead of Rickard and Brandon's would change anything to Rhaegar's timing ? At the moment Rhaegar would come at King's Landing to lead the loyalists, the rebels would have crushed JonCon forces and be united. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Viserys Targaryen IV Posted March 14, 2016 Share Posted March 14, 2016 On 3/12/2016 at 10:12 PM, purple-eyes said: Sounds good. There was at least one or two months between their eloping and murdering of stark. Why did not rhaegar do as you suggested? Are you too smart or he is too dumb? Because it takes that long to travel to Dorne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Viserys Targaryen IV Posted March 14, 2016 Share Posted March 14, 2016 On 3/12/2016 at 10:36 PM, dmc515 said: I agree with most of this until the end basically. First - would Dorne still support Rhaegar? Can't see Oberyn being a happy camper. Second, and more importantly, Robert just got totally betrayed not only by Rhaegar but, basically, by all the Starks. That would seem to put Arryn in a very precarious position. Which ward does he support? I'm frankly not sure, and that creates a domino effect - since Hoster didn't seem to be willing to get off his ass until Jon agreed to marry Lysa along with the (still presumably) Stark/Catelyn nuptials. I don't think it's really clear who aligns with whom in such an arrangement, and I would bet all the gold in you know where Tywin would sit it out. Really opens things up to more of a Wot5K scenario. That is why I said most likely the Westerlands and the Vale. In the end I do not see the Arryns supporting a war over a Stark girl running away with Rhaegar of her own accord. And Tywin would sit it out until he knew Jaime was safe. As soon as Rhaegar has Aerys detained then Tywin is free to make a deal with Rhaegar (free Jaime of his Oath) to get the Westerlands support. Hoster still has the Stark marriage deal (and another Stark son to marry Lysa if it comes to that), plus if Robert can be seen to forgive Rhaegar for the sake of the Alliance then Robert can marry Cersie, Lysa can still marry Jon. As far as the support of Dorne, I am sure they are not thrilled about the second marriage, but his marriage to Lyanna was about love and prophecy not about putting a Stark on the Throne. Plus, Rhaegar can not have sex with Elia again for fear of her dying. They can easily sate Dorne by insuring them that Elia will be the Queen at court and Aegon will be the Crown Prince. Probably have Lyanna live at Dragonstone instead of the Red Keep (or some other keep away from the Capitol) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kal-L Posted March 14, 2016 Share Posted March 14, 2016 Firstly that's not what the OP is asking for -which is an post-Rebellion case- secondly that hypothetical scenario still have unexplainable part, Rhaegar reaching King's Landing wouldn't put an end to the war like that. Lyanna is still nowhere to be found and certainly not where her father would like her to be (thanks Rhaegar), the heads of Robert and Ned were still asked by the mad King and a lot of brave men died during that war. The Starks and the Baratheons were literally besmirched by Targaryens in that scenario, and you don't stop 35 000 warriors out for blood with a 'oh wait this is a just misunderstanding !'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
purple-eyes Posted March 19, 2016 Share Posted March 19, 2016 On March 14, 2016 at 11:52 AM, King Viserys Targaryen IV said: Because it takes that long to travel to Dorne What? You have to be isolated from the whole world when you travel? So many people manages to send information during traveling, why not a crown prince? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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