Jons parentage (book vs HBO)

[3legImp]

What are some people's speculations about this? How could his parentage differ in the two canons?

[7-KG]

He's probably a Targaryen in both versions. Why do you think it'd differ at all?

[Thuckey]

What would make sense to me is if he'd be Rhaegars son for the HBO show (most people would get the reference)

 

Where as in the books it also makes sense for him to be the son of Arthur Dayne. (None show only fans know who this is)

[CaptainJugular]

The only option the show has introduced is R+L=J. Any other theories involving Arthur Dayne, Ashara and others are off the table unfortunately. 

[3legImp]

That's sort of what I was getting at. What seems like a possible alternative truth in the book's if the show reveals Rhaegar and Lyanna.

[Beautiful Bloody Sword]

59 minutes ago, 3legImp said:

That's sort of what I was getting at. What seems like a possible alternative truth in the book's if the show reveals Rhaegar and Lyanna.

I don't mean to offend, but that is such a major plot point, I don't see how it could feasibly differ from book to show. And I've had some crazy thoughts and fleeting ideas during my several rereads, but not once ever did I think for a second that Arthur could be Jon's father. It's really not a possible alternative, if it doesn't have any footing save some bizarre shock value. 

[Sir Matthis Light]

I feel like because of the lack of flashbacks/prophecy/Vision in the show, things like R+L=J might confused some people.

( I am refering to the people who never read the books, and the 1 in a billion person who don't know what R+L=J is)

IMO They should've have flashback of

-Rheagar winning ToH, and crowning Lyanna QoLaB.

- Jon Arryn getting the message that Rheagar kidnapped Lyanna and hearing of Brandon and Rickards deaths, and finally getting the message from Aerys to excuted Robert and Ned and calling the banners in rebellion.

- Some of Roberts Rebellion(Mainly the Battle of the Trident).

-Jamie becoming the Kingslayer(Since they showed him telling Brenne not so much)

-Robert being crowned with Ned being disgusted with the deaths of Elia, and her children.

-Beginning of Ned heading south(Yes I did see the s6 trailer)

-And Finally Ned making "The Promise" to his dying sister  :'(

in the T.V show

[PrinceHenryris]

Wasn't GRRM's first question to the show's creators, "Who was Jon Snow's mother?"

While the books and shows may differ on some things, I doubt they'll differ on THAT.

[TeamWhiteWalkerz]

9 hours ago, CaptainJugular said:

The only option the show has introduced is R+L=J. Any other theories involving Arthur Dayne, Ashara and others are off the table unfortunately. 

Why "unfortunately"?

[Consigliere]

I don't think that his parentage will differ between show and books. The show has diverged alot from the books but certain major plot points have remained the same. The show has only introduced R+L=J as a possibility for Jon's parentage (not as many clues as the book but they are there) and since

Spoiler

we will be getting a flashback/vision of the ToJ and I believe there will be a scene between Ned and Lyanna as well

I expect Jon's parentage to be revealed in the upcoming season.

 

[Lady Blizzardborn]

The only absolute we have as far as the books are concerned is that Ned thought the truth about Jon's parentage would be dangerous, either to Jon, or to the entire Stark family.  That means Rhaegar.

However, if Lyanna didn't get around to clarifying who the father of her child was, it would have been reasonable for Ned to just assume it was Rhaegar, and Ned could have been wrong.

So yes it is technically possible for Jon to not be Rhaegar's son in the books. I don't think it's likely but it is possible. And it would help explain all the teasers about House Dayne. For a family we know so little about, they're brought up in the series an awful lot.

[Meera of Tarth]

54 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

The only absolute we have as far as the books are concerned is that Ned thought the truth about Jon's parentage would be dangerous, either to Jon, or to the entire Stark family.  That means Rhaegar.

However, if Lyanna didn't get around to clarifying who the father of her child was, it would have been reasonable for Ned to just assume it was Rhaegar, and Ned could have been wrong.

So yes it is technically possible for Jon to not be Rhaegar's son in the books. I don't think it's likely but it is possible. And it would help explain all the teasers about House Dayne. For a family we know so little about, they're brought up in the series an awful lot.

That would be a twist of a twist. Like it.

[Ygrain]

2 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

However, if Lyanna didn't get around to clarifying who the father of her child was, it would have been reasonable for Ned to just assume it was Rhaegar, and Ned could have been wrong.

If that was the case, we wouldn't be getting the blue rose references outside Ned's PoV, yet we have them in Dany's and Theon's. 

[Lady Blizzardborn]

2 hours ago, Ygrain said:

If that was the case, we wouldn't be getting the blue rose references outside Ned's PoV, yet we have them in Dany's and Theon's. 

Actually we might, because the blue rose is associated with Lyanna.  Even if we had specific information that indicated the victor chooses what the QoLaB's crown is made of, we still wouldn't have proof that Arthur didn't persuade Rhaegar to choose the blue roses and crown Lyanna in his stead. The point of the blue rose reference for Dany is that Jon is going to be important to her in one way or another. I don't recall the reference in Theon's POV but he certainly has no connection to Rhaegar like he does to the Stark family through his friendship with Robb if not through having lived at Winterfell for ten years.

But as I said, I do not think it's likely that Arthur Dayne is Jon's father.

[Ygrain]

6 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Actually we might, because the blue rose is associated with Lyanna.  Even if we had specific information that indicated the victor chooses what the QoLaB's crown is made of, we still wouldn't have proof that Arthur didn't persuade Rhaegar to choose the blue roses and crown Lyanna in his stead. The point of the blue rose reference for Dany is that Jon is going to be important to her in one way or another. I don't recall the reference in Theon's POV but he certainly has no connection to Rhaegar like he does to the Stark family through his friendship with Robb if not through having lived at Winterfell for ten years.

But as I said, I do not think it's likely that Arthur Dayne is Jon's father.

In Theon's dream where he sees the feast of the dead, he sees Lyanna with a crown of blue winter roses.

As for the bolded, I yet have to see a single hint of textual evidence that Rhaegar acted on Arthur's behalf because without it, the theory holds no merit. Perhaps it was Oswell Whent who discovered that Lyanna was KotLT, talked to her, found out about the blue roses and arranged for the crown to be made of them, and then convinced Rhaegar to win the tourney for him, right?

It doesn't matter if Rhaegar chose what the crown is to be made from, what matters is that he gave it, and that we see Lyanna wear it even in scenes which are symbolic in their nature, such as the above-mentioned dream, or in Ned's dream about Lyanna's statue wearing and whispering "promise me" (which also reiterates the connection between the blue roses and the promise which we have seen both in Ned's living memory and in the ToJ dream. Moreover, the mentions of Lyanna and roses are set in the text in a way which "escalates" towards a reveal: first it is Lyanna and roses, then it is blue roses, then a garland of blue roses - and then, BAM! we learn that it is a QoLaB crown given to her by none other but Rhaegar. There is no further step that would point towards Arthur, or anyone else.

[Marcus Agrippa]

Once you realize Jon is Aragon everything falls into place. Also, neds pov with cersei is just to damning. Jon has been a targ since day one, and either a key to the end game, or the end game.

[scotcat]

Jon's true parentage is such an important point, I really don't see it differing between the show and the books.

 

[Lady Blizzardborn]

11 hours ago, Ygrain said:

In Theon's dream where he sees the feast of the dead, he sees Lyanna with a crown of blue winter roses.

As for the bolded, I yet have to see a single hint of textual evidence that Rhaegar acted on Arthur's behalf because without it, the theory holds no merit. Perhaps it was Oswell Whent who discovered that Lyanna was KotLT, talked to her, found out about the blue roses and arranged for the crown to be made of them, and then convinced Rhaegar to win the tourney for him, right?

It doesn't matter if Rhaegar chose what the crown is to be made from, what matters is that he gave it, and that we see Lyanna wear it even in scenes which are symbolic in their nature, such as the above-mentioned dream, or in Ned's dream about Lyanna's statue wearing and whispering "promise me" (which also reiterates the connection between the blue roses and the promise which we have seen both in Ned's living memory and in the ToJ dream. Moreover, the mentions of Lyanna and roses are set in the text in a way which "escalates" towards a reveal: first it is Lyanna and roses, then it is blue roses, then a garland of blue roses - and then, BAM! we learn that it is a QoLaB crown given to her by none other but Rhaegar. There is no further step that would point towards Arthur, or anyone else.

Since we've been given almost nothing to explain why Rhaegar acted as he did, it can't be ruled  out. Without any behind-the-scenes info we can't say what happened. 

If you were writing this series, and your intention was for Arthur Dayne to be Jon's father, and it was supposed to be a big surprise, would you put hints all over the place indicating it (which would then make it not remotely a surprise, let alone a big one)?  

Theon's dream again is specific to Lyanna, not to Rhaegar. Rhaegar only comes in because he sang a sad song and won the tournament.

It actually might matter who chose what the crown was made of. Blue roses are associated with the north, why use them for the QoLaB crown at a tournament in the Riverlands?  The blue rose crown was a definite message. What we have yet to learn is what the message was, who from, and for whom. It's really not a huge stretch to think Rhaegar might have acted as wingman for his best friend.

There are a number of things in the series on which we have very little information. We'll be in for surprises on at least a few of them.

I have to admit that I'm curious why you are so adamant about arguing against this idea when the very person who proposed it doesn't even believe it. 

[King Jon Targaryen I]

Wait why would they change it?

[Melisandre's White Pubes]

IF R+L=J is true (I personally give higher probability to other theories but I am not convinced of any of them) I would not be surprised at all if the show "simplified" things by making Jon the son of Aerys and Lyanna, since the Mad King is mentioned way more than Rhaegar in the show, it's possible, and it would make Jon the half brother of Daenerys (if she didn't have a secret identity).