Stannis burning people vs Arys burning people

[Lord_Ravenstone]

24 minutes ago, Jasta11 said:

 

That's a very good point. We as readers know that Mel can be wrong on several counts and that there are greater powers than hers in the grand scheme of things. But as far as he's concerned, this super hot priestress shows up and starts displaying vast arrays of clearly supernatural powers, and seems to understand way more than the common man. Hers is not the kind of advice that can be dismissed easily.

I mean, Dany wilfully walked into a pyre because voices in her head told her to do so. Bran swallows everything the Three Eyed Crow says hook, line and sinker. Victarion shows almost complete trust in Moqorro after he gets his new arm. Stannis is hardly the only one that trusts in magic, and even so he does so very slowly and warily.

Yep:

"Edric—" he started.

 

"—is one boy! He may be the best boy who ever drew breath and it would not matter. My duty is to the realm." His hand swept across the Painted Table. "How many boys dwell in Westeros? How many girls? How many men, how many women? The darkness will devour them all, she says. The night that never ends. She talks of prophecies . . . a hero reborn in the sea, living dragons hatched from dead stone . . . she speaks of signs and swears they point to me. I never asked for this, no more than I asked to be king. Yet dare I disregard her?" He ground his teeth. "We do not choose our destinies. Yet we must . . . we must do our duty, no? Great or small, we must do our duty. Melisandre swears that she has seen me in her flames, facing the dark with Lightbringer raised on high. Lightbringer!" Stannis gave a derisive snort.

[Melisandre's White Pubes]

By these justifications, every witch that was burned, every heretic tortured to death, was killed by righteous, good people.  They were told by their priests that doing so was necessary to save them from spending an eternity in Hell.  In fact, the torturers of our history may have been more justified than Stannis, because there was no doubt in their minds as to whether their God was real, there was no "If they repent, MAYBE they will be saved from Hell", it was a sure thing.  It's not like Stannis believes a prophecy that says "If you burn this child to death, the sacrifice will prevent the Long Night from coming" - he's doing these sacrifices to advance his own military campaign, so that he can be in a position where he MIGHT be able to save the world from the Others, but does he truly believe that?  Or does he think that the Red Witch might be able to help his campaign magically and so he's doing what he can on the chance that it MIGHT help?

And whether he believes it or not, we as readers know it's not true.  Stannis is destined to fail.  The show would not have killed him off so ignominously if the books were going to give him a pivotal role in saving Westeros.  Nope, all those burnings that helped Stannis win battles end up being for nought.  If not for Stannis and his black magic, the Lannisters would not be in Kings Landing, the people would be united behind a popular king, and the Wildlings would still be united behind a strong leader and better able to deal with whatever comes from the Lands of Always Winter.

 

[7-KG]

On 14/03/2016 at 10:53 PM, Abdallah said:

I do seem to remember Mel forced converting the wildlings. I don't trust him anymore with holy places. 

The Lords are stronger than him. He might earn the loyalty of the Northmen but he can't hold the south. The Lannisters, Greyjoys, Arryns, Martells, won't accept him and even if he won Blackwater i don't think he could have held it. Without Dragons each king needs to form alliances with several of the kingdoms. Rebelled or assassinated etc.

My point was that he wouldn't simply burn the places if that would somehow harm him. For instance, he accepted the northmen and all. And I think Stannis knows he wouldn't want to anger the common folk by burning the septs.

As for your second paragraph... Well, I guess you didn't got my point. I'm saying if he got the throne right now. It's true that some great houses don't like him and may even hold a grudge against the man, but after all this war and destruction, I think they wouldn't want to start another war because of it (maybe except the Greyjoys (but that would depend on who the Greyjoy ruler is, I suppose) and as for the Lannisters, I guess Stannis would probably exile them; "Starting with Cersei and her abominations", as Stannis himself said). So, I think they would have to obey him.

[Sullen]

2 minutes ago, 7-KG said:

My point was that he wouldn't simply burn the places if that would somehow harm him. For instance, he accepted the northmen and all. And I think Stannis knows he wouldn't want to anger the common folk by burning the septs.

He did burn the Sept on Dragonstone, which actively harmed him. He lost both Sunglass and Rambton over it.

[John Doe]

2 hours ago, Byrnard Sandors said:

By these justifications, every witch that was burned, every heretic tortured to death, was killed by righteous, good people.  They were told by their priests that doing so was necessary to save them from spending an eternity in Hell.  

 

This comparison doesn't work at all. Stannis never killed people for as vague an excuse as "being a heretic", and those priests didn't display supernatural powers. 

[Melisandre's White Pubes]

31 minutes ago, John Doe said:

This comparison doesn't work at all. Stannis never killed people for as vague an excuse as "being a heretic", and those priests didn't display supernatural powers. 

In medieval times, many things were seem as miraculous signs of God's power.  Trust me, most people back then had far more faith in their gods than Stannis has in R'hillor.  And for people of faith, they often feel supernatural power at every church service.  They did not understand the psychological reasons behind why confession made them feel better... They could personally feel the power of their priests cleaning their soul of sin... So don't discount the belief of the real world analogues of Stannis... Their belief in the reality of their god was no less than that of Stannis.

In fact, the medieval people largely believed that ALL supernatural power came directly from God our Satan, so they would be much more justified believing that Melisandre's tricks were divine in origin.  Stannis lives in a world that knows for a fact that supernatural power can come from many different sources, the kind of world where a man like Randyll Tarly, a follower of the Seven, would pay good money to foreign warlocks to cast a spell on his son.  Stannis should know damn well that being able to perform magic does not necessarily mean Melisandre is a true prophet.  And Stannis was willing to sacrifice by fire for the equivalent of heresy, or even for having noble blood.

Stannis is far less morally justifiable than the Inquisition or people who burned witches to save them from hell.

[Lord_Ravenstone]

1 minute ago, Byrnard Sandors said:

In medieval times, many things were seem as miraculous signs of God's power.  Trust me, most people back then had far more faith in their gods than Stannis has on R'hillor.  And for people of faith, they often feel supernatural power at every church service.  They did not understand the psychological reasons behind why confession made them feel better... They could personally feel the power of their priests cleaning their soul of sin... So don't discount the belief of the real world analogues of Stannis... Their belief in the reality of their god was no less than that of Stannis.

In fact, the medieval people largely believed that ALL supernatural power came directly from God our Satan, so they would be much more justified believing that Melisandre's tricks were divine in origin.  Stannis lives in a world that knows for a fact that supernatural power can come from many different sources, the kind of works where a man like Randyll Tarly, a follower of the Seven, would pay good money to foreign warlocks to cast a spell on his son.  Stannis should know damn well that being able to perform magic does not necessarily mean Melisandre is a true prophet.  And Stannis was willing to sacrifice by fire for the equivalent of heresy, or even for having noble blood.

Stannis is far less morally justifiable than the Inquisition or people who burned witches to save them from hell.

Stannis believes in that magic not R'hllor.

And Stannis is also seeing visions in the flame. He tells Davos of a vision he had in ASOS and he's been staring into the flames in ADWD.

[Lord_Ravenstone]

3 hours ago, Byrnard Sandors said:

By these justifications, every witch that was burned, every heretic tortured to death, was killed by righteous, good people.  They were told by their priests that doing so was necessary to save them from spending an eternity in Hell.  In fact, the torturers of our history may have been more justified than Stannis, because there was no doubt in their minds as to whether their God was real, there was no "If they repent, MAYBE they will be saved from Hell", it was a sure thing.  It's not like Stannis believes a prophecy that says "If you burn this child to death, the sacrifice will prevent the Long Night from coming" - he's doing these sacrifices to advance his own military campaign, so that he can be in a position where he MIGHT be able to save the world from the Others, but does he truly believe that?  Or does he think that the Red Witch might be able to help his campaign magically and so he's doing what he can on the chance that it MIGHT help?

And whether he believes it or not, we as readers know it's not true.  Stannis is destined to fail.  The show would not have killed him off so ignominously if the books were going to give him a pivotal role in saving Westeros.  Nope, all those burnings that helped Stannis win battles end up being for nought.  If not for Stannis and his black magic, the Lannisters would not be in Kings Landing, the people would be united behind a popular king, and the Wildlings would still be united behind a strong leader and better able to deal with whatever comes from the Lands of Always Winter.

 

Nope. If Renly takes the throne then Varys just assassinates him for his puppet, Aegon. Same situation as before.

Also Stannis saved Jon Snow's life. 

If Jon Snow really is AA then he might have just saved the world right then and there. 

[John Doe]

9 minutes ago, Byrnard Sandors said:

In medieval times, many things were seem as miraculous signs of God's power.  Trust me, most people back then had far more faith in their gods than Stannis has in R'hillor.  And for people of faith, they often feel supernatural power at every church service.  They did not understand the psychological reasons behind why confession made them feel better... They could personally feel the power of their priests cleaning their soul of sin... So don't discount the belief of the real world analogues of Stannis... Their belief in the reality of their god was no less than that of Stannis.

In fact, the medieval people largely believed that ALL supernatural power came directly from God our Satan, so they would be much more justified believing that Melisandre's tricks were divine in origin.  Stannis lives in a world that knows for a fact that supernatural power can come from many different sources, the kind of world where a man like Randyll Tarly, a follower of the Seven, would pay good money to foreign warlocks to cast a spell on his son.  Stannis should know damn well that being able to perform magic does not necessarily mean Melisandre is a true prophet.  And Stannis was willing to sacrifice by fire for the equivalent of heresy, or even for having noble blood.

Stannis is far less morally justifiable than the Inquisition or people who burned witches to save them from hell.

The Warlocks were punished afterwards because their healing didn't work. So no, they don't know for a fact that supernatural power can come from many different sources, they are just pretty suspicious at times. But Melisandre correctly predicting the deaths of three kings + the whole part with Renly at Storm's End as well as surviving a Maester's poisoning attempt are all not comparable to feeling better after a confession. Very few people in asoiaf at this point had contact with anything like it. 

[Sullen]

6 minutes ago, Lord_Ravenstone said:

Nope. If Renly takes the throne then Varys just assassinates him for his puppet, Aegon. Same situation as before.

As for the assassination, possible, it's possible Renly has Varys killed as well.

As for the same situation, not really, Renly would bring peace quicker, with much less bloodshed. The Starks would likely still be in Winterfell as well, and it's possible that Balon would have never rebelled had the possibility of a Baratheon-Stark alliance still existed.

6 minutes ago, Lord_Ravenstone said:

Also Stannis saved Jon Snow's life. 

If Jon Snow really is AA then he might have just saved the world right then and there. 

 If you use the argument of prophecy and a predetermined fate, then Jon would have survived, Stannis or not.

[Lord_Ravenstone]

1 minute ago, Sullen said:

As for the assassination, possible, it's possible Renly has Varys killed as well.

As for the same situation, not really, Renly would bring peace quicker, with much less bloodshed. The Starks would likely still be in Winterfell as well, and it's possible that Balon would have never rebelled had the possibility of a Baratheon-Stark alliance still existed.

 If you use the argument of prophecy and a predetermined fate, then Jon would have survived, Stannis or not.

Possibly but Renly wasn't into scourging the court like Stannis was and Varys is still extremely useful which is why no one tries to touch him.

Balon rebelled far before Cat and Renly even stated talking terms. My argument is that Renly wouldn't bring peace quicker because if Varys kills him provided he had killed off the rest the fake Baratheons then now there is no alternative to Stannis and it becomes a lot closer to anarchy.

But if say Renly only kills Joffrey and imprisions Tommen and Myrcella then he dies and Tommen ascends and we're in a similar situation as before.

Nah. Prophecies can be averted. The Stallion that Mounts the World for instance.

[Sullen]

1 minute ago, Lord_Ravenstone said:

Possibly but Renly wasn't into scourging the court like Stannis was and Varys is still extremely useful which is why no one tries to touch him.

Who says Renly wasn't into scourging the court? He doesn't seem to trust Varys, and very much wants his own Small Council.

The only members from the Lannister court I see remaining with Renly are Littlefinger (who he thought was a friend), and Pycelle (who he technically cannot remove).

2 minutes ago, Lord_Ravenstone said:

Balon rebelled far before Cat and Renly even stated talking terms. My argument is that Renly wouldn't bring peace quicker because if Varys kills him provided he had killed off the rest the fake Baratheons then now there is no alternative to Stannis and it becomes a lot closer to anarchy.

The North is only attacked long after the death of Renly, and Balon loses his main reason to attack the North (it's undefended and they can't get to me in any cases) if Robb bends the knee. Considering Balon has a pretty smart approach to bending the knee, I doubt he'd repeat the mistake of actively going against the whole realm a second time. If Varys is killed, there is no anarchy.

6 minutes ago, Lord_Ravenstone said:

But if say Renly only kills Joffrey and imprisions Tommen and Myrcella then he dies and Tommen ascends and we're in a similar situation as before.

Only if Varys is not killed, which is a pretty big "if".

6 minutes ago, Lord_Ravenstone said:

Nah. Prophecies can be averted. The Stallion that Mounts the World for instance.

Then they are a false prophecy.

A prophecy happens by definition, if Jon dies, then he was never really Azor Ahai.

[Lord_Ravenstone]

2 hours ago, Sullen said:

Who says Renly wasn't into scourging the court? He doesn't seem to trust Varys, and very much wants his own Small Council.

The only members from the Lannister court I see remaining with Renly are Littlefinger (who he thought was a friend), and Pycelle (who he technically cannot remove).

The North is only attacked long after the death of Renly, and Balon loses his main reason to attack the North (it's undefended and they can't get to me in any cases) if Robb bends the knee. Considering Balon has a pretty smart approach to bending the knee, I doubt he'd repeat the mistake of actively going against the whole realm a second time. If Varys is killed, there is no anarchy.

Only if Varys is not killed, which is a pretty big "if".

Then they are a false prophecy.

A prophecy happens by definition, if Jon dies, then he was never really Azor Ahai.

Because Renly gave no indication that he'd kill everyone off. It doesn't matter if Renly fires Varys because Varya will just hide out in the castle and kill Renly like he killed Kevan.

Nope. Check the timeline. The ironborn attack the North a little before Renly dies.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ZsY3lcDDtTdBWp1Gx6mfkdtZT6-Gk0kdTGeSC_Dj7WM/htmlview#gid=8

 

Both Mel and Thoros say that prophecy shows you what may be rather than what will be. Or as Stannis puts it some futures cast larger shadows than others.

 

Also the HOTU prophecies where it shows Rhaego conquering the world and then having that future being lost shows that the prophecy about him being the stallion that mounts the world wasn't a lie 

[7-KG]

7 hours ago, Sullen said:

He did burn the Sept on Dragonstone, which actively harmed him. He lost both Sunglass and Rambton over it.

That was pre-Blackwater.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

On 13/3/2016 at 10:41 PM, The Dragon Knight said:

Totally off topic, but I think Euron is definitely getting visions somehow or another. Probably all the Shade of the Evening he's been chugging to give himself blue lips. Interested to hear about him being a skinchanger though, what's the evidence for that? Dusky Woman theories?

 

On 13/3/2016 at 10:47 PM, Lord_Ravenstone said:

“When I was a boy, I dreamt that I could fly,” [Euron] announced. “When I woke, I couldn’t . . . or so the maester said. But what if he lied?

"Perhaps we can fly. All of us. How will we ever know unless we leap from some tall tower? No man ever truly knows what he can do unless he dares to leap." -Euron Greyjoy

"I can’t fly,” Bran said. “I can’t, I can’t…” "How do you know? Have you ever tried?" -Three Eyed Raven

Read the rest:

https://madeinmyr.wordpress.com/2015/02/21/a-black-eye-shining-with-malice-thoughts-concerning-eurons-black-magic-and-potential-dark-powers/

I know the text. However nowhere in the text Euron seem to have greenseer abilities. He may be a warg and he most definately uses black magic but he isn't a greenseer.

[Lord_Ravenstone]

3 hours ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

 

I know the text. However nowhere in the text Euron seem to have greenseer abilities. He may be a warg and he most definately uses black magic but he isn't a greenseer.

He can project himself into Dany's dreams . Only BR and Bran have been able to do that.

Also BR wouldn't be contacting Euron if he was just a skin-changer instead of a greenseer

[Jon's Queen Consort]

3 minutes ago, Lord_Ravenstone said:

He can project himself into Dany's dreams . Only BR and Bran have been able to do that.

Also BR wouldn't be contacting Euron if he was just a skin-changer instead of a greenseer

Does he? He can really do it or is one of Dany's visions? And BR would had Euron with him along with Bran and as long as we know so far he hadn't done it.

[Lord_Ravenstone]

3 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Does he? He can really do it or is one of Dany's visions? And BR would had Euron with him along with Bran and as long as we know so far he hadn't done it.

That's probably because there was a break between BR and Euron. BR has very little to work with in terms of greenseers. Euron's more interested in dragons than the COTF:

He can really do it. 

Euron turned to face him, his bruised blue lips curled in a half smile. (FfC Victarion II)

‘Beneath her coverlets [Dany] tossed and turned, dreaming that Hizdahr was kissing her … but his lips were blue and bruised, and when he thrust himself inside her, his manhood was cold as ice.’ (DwD VII)

You can pretend it's a vision but of what? Euron's going to succeed and fuck Dany? It's also consistent with Euron and what he would do if he could invade people's dreams. He's a sexual predator.

Connect the dots. I would advise you read that essay I linked.

 

[Jon's Queen Consort]

2 minutes ago, Lord_Ravenstone said:

That's probably because there was a break between BR and Euron. BR has very little to work with in terms of greenseers. Euron's more interested in dragons than the COTF:

He can really do it. 

Euron turned to face him, his bruised blue lips curled in a half smile. (FfC Victarion II)

‘Beneath her coverlets [Dany] tossed and turned, dreaming that Hizdahr was kissing her … but his lips were blue and bruised, and when he thrust himself inside her, his manhood was cold as ice.’ (DwD VII)

You can pretend it's a vision but of what? Euron's going to succeed and fuck Dany? It's also consistent with Euron and what he would do if he could invade people's dreams. He's a sexual predator.

Connect the dots. I would advise you read that essay I linked.

 

And because an untrained "greenseer" was interest in dragons an ancient demigod hadn't communicate with him?

By using the word "pretend" you basically claim that you know the truth, which is by definition wrong. Now yes I believe that is Dany's own vision about the truth. I have read it. But that doesn't mean that I have found it even remotely possible or that I agree with you.

[Lord_Ravenstone]

19 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

And because an untrained "greenseer" was interest in dragons an ancient demigod hadn't communicate with him?

 

By using the word "pretend" you basically claim that you know the truth, which is by definition wrong. Now yes I believe that is Dany's own vision about the truth. I have read it. But that doesn't mean that I have found it even remotely possible or that I agree with you.

 

He did communicate with him but Euron wasn't interested in what he was selling. BR can't make Euron do anything. Hell, Bran needed the Reeds to help get him north. 

And BR has a lot less influence in the Iron Islands than he does in the North.

You don't find it remotely possible that Euron would project himself into Daenerys' dreams even though the text heavily suggests he's a greenseer and only greenseers have been shown to have the power to project themselves into others' dreams?