Isobel Harper

The Bat and the Wolf?

163 posts in this topic

Ned knelt beside her. "He has years to find that answer, Arya. For now, it is enough to know that he will live." The night the bird had come from Winterfell, Eddard Stark had taken the girls to the castle godswood, an acre of elm and alder and black cottonwood overlooking the river. The heart tree there was a great oak, its ancient limbs overgrown with smokeberry vines; they knelt before it to offer their thanksgiving, as if it had been a weirwood. Sansa drifted to sleep as the moon rose, Arya several hours later, curling up in the grass under Ned's cloak. All through the dark hours he kept his vigil alone. When dawn broke over the city, the dark red blooms of dragon's breath surrounded the girls where they lay. "I dreamed of Bran," Sansa had whispered to him. "I saw him smiling."

So far in the series, the hour of the bat is the earliest of the "hours of the night," making the hour of the bat likely the time that Sansa fell asleep.  The hour of the bat precedes the hour of the eel.  The hour of the eel precedes the hour of the ghosts.  The hour of the ghost precedes the hour of the owl.  The hour of the owl precedes the hour of the wolf.  The hour of the wolf precedes the hour of the nightingale.  That is, the order of the hours are bat, eel, ghosts, owl, wolf, nightingale.  The hour of the wolf is "several hour later" than the hour of the bat. 

Therefore, in this scene, Sansa and Arya fell asleep during the hour of the bat and the hour of the wolf, respectively, no?

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Ta-Da ! Never thought about this before, but I like it very much.. since I think Sansa's Whent blood (and possibly some wrong -side-of-the-blanket Lothston blood) may be quite important down the road.

Brienne begins searching for Sansa bearing a Lothston shield. 

Shadrich questions / tests her, to see if she is after Varys' bag of dragons when he sees it. (I really doubt that's his motive .. )

I always felt the Mad Mouse was on Sansa's side, somehow, with the old gods' colours on his shield...

Spoiler

But then in the TWoW Alayne chapter, when he quips he won't be competing to be a winged knight, because "A mouse with wings would be a silly sight" (winged mouse = fledermaus = bat) .. coupled with his red hair..

... I became more convinced that she has something to do in or around Harrenhall - without Petyr.

Edited by bemused

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4 minutes ago, bemused said:

Ta-Da ! Never thought about this before, but I like it very much.. since I think Sansa's Whent blood (and possibly some wrong -side-of-the-blanket Lothston blood) may be quite important down the road.

Brienne begins searching for her bearing a Lothston shield.

I always felt the Mad Mouse was on her side, somehow, with the old gods' colours on his shield...

  Hide contents

But then in the TWoW Alayne chapter, when he quips he won't be competing to be a winged knight, because "A mouse with wings would be a silly sight" (winged mouse = fledermaus = bat) .. coupled with his red hair..

... I became more convinced that she has something to do in or around Harrenhall - without Petyr.

Good catch in the spoiler tag!

I feel the same way about Whent lineage playing a role some time in the future.  I hoped that I found another "bat" connection with regards to Sansa in the above scene, but wasn't sure if I was reaching. 

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On ‎3‎/‎14‎/‎2016 at 5:18 PM, Isobel Harper said:

Ned knelt beside her. "He has years to find that answer, Arya. For now, it is enough to know that he will live." The night the bird had come from Winterfell, Eddard Stark had taken the girls to the castle godswood, an acre of elm and alder and black cottonwood overlooking the river. The heart tree there was a great oak, its ancient limbs overgrown with smokeberry vines; they knelt before it to offer their thanksgiving, as if it had been a weirwood. Sansa drifted to sleep as the moon rose, Arya several hours later, curling up in the grass under Ned's cloak. All through the dark hours he kept his vigil alone. When dawn broke over the city, the dark red blooms of dragon's breath surrounded the girls where they lay. "I dreamed of Bran," Sansa had whispered to him. "I saw him smiling."

So far in the series, the hour of the bat is the earliest of the "hours of the night," making the hour of the bat likely the time that Sansa fell asleep.  The hour of the bat precedes the hour of the eel.  The hour of the eel precedes the hour of the ghosts.  The hour of the ghost precedes the hour of the owl.  The hour of the owl precedes the hour of the wolf.  The hour of the wolf precedes the hour of the nightingale.  That is, the order of the hours are bat, eel, ghosts, owl, wolf, nightingale.  The hour of the wolf is "several hour later" than the hour of the bat. 

Therefore, in this scene, Sansa and Arya fell asleep during the hour of the bat and the hour of the wolf, respectively, no?

Yes ma'am.  I feel like there's more to the way they tell time than just the hour but haven't had the time to look any further in to it. 

I was rereading this passage a few weeks ago and this stood out to me too but for different reasons.  Did Sansa have a "wolf dream" about Bran?  In the way Bran & Rickon saw Ned die?

On ‎3‎/‎14‎/‎2016 at 6:09 PM, bemused said:

Ta-Da ! Never thought about this before, but I like it very much.. since I think Sansa's Whent blood (and possibly some wrong -side-of-the-blanket Lothston blood) may be quite important down the road.

Brienne begins searching for Sansa bearing a Lothston shield. 

Shadrich questions / tests her, to see if she is after Varys' bag of dragons when he sees it. (I really doubt that's his motive .. )

I always felt the Mad Mouse was on Sansa's side, somehow, with the old gods' colours on his shield...

... I became more convinced that she has something to do in or around Harrenhall - without Petyr.

I'm right there with ya about the Mad Mouse.  But remind me...Whent, was that Cats mom?

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22 minutes ago, DarkSister1001 said:

Yes ma'am.  I feel like there's more to the way they tell time than just the hour but haven't had the time to look any further in to it. 

I was rereading this passage a few weeks ago and this stood out to me too but for different reasons.  Did Sansa have a "wolf dream" about Bran?  In the way Bran & Rickon saw Ned die?

I'm right there with ya about the Mad Mouse.  But remind me...Whent, was that Cats mom?

I think it would be very cool if Sansa had had a wolf dream - Lady was dead, but had she been buried yet?  The timeline gets a little fuzzy right around there - how long would it take a raven saying Bran's awake to get from WF to KL?  And how long was it after Bran woke up that they buried Lady?  Before a raven would have made it to KL?  Anyway, I really like the idea of Lady's ghost wandering around Winterfell, and I really like the idea of Sansa one day being able to warg into her dead wolf (I don't really know how *likely* it is...but I still enjoy playing with the idea once in a while!).  The wind in the mountains when they're leaving the Eyrie Sansa says sounded like a "ghost wolf howling" which has always stood out to me, too.  That's a paraphrase, naturally.

And yes, Catelyn's mother was Minisa Whent.  I *think* Minisa was said to be the niece of the Lady Whent who held Harrenhal at the very start of the series.  Maybe it was a sister, instead of a niece.  But there's a family relation to the Whents of Harrenhal through Minisa Whent, somehow.

Edited by Jak Scaletongue

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Minisa Whent was Shella Whent's sister. Shella's children are all dead except for a daughter married to a Frey (but that daughter has not had any success in childbirth).. This is as per the wiki.

There's some information in AWoIaF besides what little there is in the novels..(I don't have time to do a lot of quoting right now) but...

Spoiler

House Whent was in service to House Lothston (not bannermen) and were involved in bringing down and(probably / possibly extinguishing the house) But in TWoIaF  there are hints at House Lothston's sexual immorality, Lord Lucas being (perhaps undeservedly) called The Pander..but his sons had and equally bad reputations for something.. Then too, in TMK, we see Danelle Lothston in league with Bloodraven.. hmmmm..

So, it occurs to me that there could actually be some Lothston blood surviving in House Whent .. and I've always doubted that Danelle was really as involved in the "black arts" as she is reputed to have been. This was an opinion widely held of Bloodraven, as well. He's obviously involved with magic (glamours, and so forth - not to mention his current position) but how dark his magic was / is, is still subjective.

I've always strongly suspected that Danelle's reputed bathing in blood and eating children of being gross exaggerations, if not outright slanders.

BR was sent to the Wall and House Lothston brought down, both in the reign of Maekar.

I'm not sure what ,exactly this all might mean, but I suspect there's a connection - possibly significant.

Edited by bemused

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On 3/14/2016 at 9:09 PM, bemused said:

~snipped for length~

 

  Hide contents

But then in the TWoW Alayne chapter, when he quips he won't be competing to be a winged knight, because "A mouse with wings would be a silly sight" (winged mouse = fledermaus = bat) .. coupled with his red hair..

... I became more convinced that she has something to do in or around Harrenhall - without Petyr.

 

On 3/14/2016 at 8:18 PM, Isobel Harper said:

~snipped for length~

Therefore, in this scene, Sansa and Arya fell asleep during the hour of the bat and the hour of the wolf, respectively, no?

Yes and Yes to your hidden comments! I have a thing for bats in real life and they stand out to me wherever I go. Also when I read like the comparison Bran makes to giant bats in the cave that matches how Dany describes Viseryion while locked away.

A few months back I asked about why Varys wants to find Sansa and the Shadrich connection and then the TWOW stuff, yadda, yadda, yadda. I never got an answer that felt... right, but I think this is it.

What you have here is great. Thank you. Please post anymore to this if it comes to you.

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Fattest Leech... Amen, to the giant bats.. ( I love bats in real life, too ).

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I feel like there is definitely some bat/dragon imagery and symbolism crossover.

I also think that through part of her arc Sansa is allegorically playing the role of the Amethyst Empress, and the bat connection works to substitute for the AE's dragon connection.

But the bat stuff with Sansa can also serve other purposes, like obviously it highlights her Whent connection.

Bats themselves may provide some sort of tie-in between dragons (+associated magics) and the Old Gods (+associated magics). I'm pretty unclear on how that would work, but that's the sense I get.

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This topic is definitely worth discussion. I'm at the metro waiting to pick up my gimpy husband right now, but when have time later I would like to add more. 

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There was a story about a Lothston that sent out giant bats on moonless nights to carry back bad kids.  Didn't Old Nan have a tale about something/someone coming for bad kids too?  I can't remember. 

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1 hour ago, bemused said:

Minisa Whent was Shella Whent's sister.

This isn't confirmed anywhere. ;)

1 hour ago, bemused said:

Shella's children are all dead except for a daughter married to a Frey

I think the family relations of Shella and Wynafrei aren't known, too.

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3 minutes ago, DarkSister1001 said:

There was a story about a Lothston that sent out giant bats on moonless nights to carry back bad kids.  Didn't Old Nan have a tale about something/someone coming for bad kids too?  I can't remember. 

Mad Danelle Lothson, the last of the Lothstons. Also an ally of Bloodraven,

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1 minute ago, Lord Wraith said:

Mad Danelle Lothson, the last of the Lothstons. Also an ally of Bloodraven,

Right.  But I was thinking Old Nan and a very similar story.  That's the part I can't recall. 

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1 hour ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

This isn't confirmed anywhere. ;)

I think the family relations of Shella and Wynafrei aren't known, too.

OK.. best guesses then..

Shella  and Minisa appear to be the same generation, whether sisters or cousins.. (could be either)

Still, my bad about Wynafrei ..I was posting in a hurry (on my way out the door) and didn't double check (I have duly slapped my hands) ;) .. (I rather suspect she's doomed anyway, and Cat's children will be the closest to the main line)

Edited by bemused

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4 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

 

Yes and Yes to your hidden comments! I have a thing for bats in real life and they stand out to me wherever I go. Also when I read like the comparison Bran makes to giant bats in the cave that matches how Dany describes Viseryion while locked away.

A few months back I asked about why Varys wants to find Sansa and the Shadrich connection and then the TWOW stuff, yadda, yadda, yadda. I never got an answer that felt... right, but I think this is it.

What you have here is great. Thank you. Please post anymore to this if it comes to you.

The arms of the suitors/champions in the Ashford Tourney Theory all match Viserion in some way: Baratheon has gold, Tyrell has gold, Lannister has red and gold, Hardyng has white and red, and Targaryen has red.  Viserion is often called the "white dragon."  His scales are white/cream with gold, he has red and gold blood, and his flames are described as gold.  Not sure what the connection is, if there is one.  I might be reading too much into this one.

4 hours ago, bemused said:

Minisa Whent was Shella Whent's sister. Shella's children are all dead except for a daughter married to a Frey (but that daughter has not had any success in childbirth).. This is as per the wiki.

There's some information in AWoIaF besides what little there is in the novels..(I don't have time to do a lot of quoting right now) but...

  Reveal hidden contents

House Whent was in service to House Lothston (not bannermen) and were involved in bringing down and(probably / possibly extinguishing the house) But in TWoIaF  there are hints at House Lothston's sexual immorality, Lord Lucas being (perhaps undeservedly) called The Pander..but his sons had and equally bad reputations for something.. Then too, in TMK, we see Danelle Lothston in league with Bloodraven.. hmmmm..

So, it occurs to me that there could actually be some Lothston blood surviving in House Whent .. and I've always doubted that Danelle was really as involved in the "black arts" as she is reputed to have been. This was an opinion widely held of Bloodraven, as well. He's obviously involved with magic (glamours, and so forth - not to mention his current position) but how dark his magic was / is, is still subjective.

I've always strongly suspected that Danelle's reputed bathing in blood and eating children of being gross exaggerations, if not outright slanders.

BR was sent to the Wall and House Lothston brought down, both in the reign of Maekar.

I'm not sure what ,exactly this all might mean, but I suspect there's a connection - possibly significant.

 

I agree!  There's something more to Danelle that meets the eye, and my gut tells me it's not nearly so negative as appears.  Similarly, rumors seen spread at least twice in ADwD (The Windblown and Tyrion VII) of Daenerys bathing in virgin blood.  Attempting to end slavery in Slaver's Bay has made lots of enemies.  Perhaps Danelle Lothston was attempting something radical, and it ended up backfiring?  And while I don't think sexism (negative opinion of a woman in power) is the cause, I feel it plays a significant role as well.

BR was actually sent to the Wall during Egg's reign - it was one of the first deeds in his reign.  But you might be on to something.  The negativity surrounding her might be due in part to anti-BR factions who wished to destroy one of BR's strongest allies.

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9 minutes ago, Isobel Harper said:

The arms of the suitors/champions in the Ashford Tourney Theory all match Viserion in some way: Baratheon has gold, Tyrell has gold, Lannister has red and gold, Hardyng has white and red, and Targaryen has red.  Viserion is often called the "white dragon."  His scales are white/cream with gold, he has red and gold blood, and his flames are described as gold.  Not sure what the connection is, if there is one.  I might be reading too much into this one.

 

 

I'm still not at my computer yet, but I did find this from something I posted a few weeks back. It shows a descriptive link between what Bran sees in the cave and what Dany sees in the dragon lair. I don't know that it is anything to do with a Sansa/bat/Whent connection, just a reference to what I mentioned up thread.

 

A Dance with Dragons - Bran III As Hodor he explored the caves. He found chambers full of bones, shafts that plunged deep into the earth, a place where the skeletons of gigantic bats hung upside down from the ceiling.

>>>Then we have Viserion, the white one:

A Dance with Dragons - The Dragontamer

 Rhaegal was chained to the wall and floor the last time I was here, the prince recalled, but Viserion hung from the ceiling.

A Dance with Dragons - Daenerys VIII

The dragons craned their necks around, gazing at them with burning eyes. Viserion had shattered one chain and melted the others. He clung to the roof of the pit like some huge white bat, his claws dug deep into the burnt and crumbling bricks.

And I know what you are thinking, Bran saw an actual giant bat skeleton in the caves. Well, if you do a search in the World Book, there are no references to giant bats at all. Just regular old sized bats. Once in Casterly Rock and once in Sothoryos.

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4 hours ago, Blind Beth the Cat Lady said:

I feel like there is definitely some bat/dragon imagery and symbolism crossover.

I also think that through part of her arc Sansa is allegorically playing the role of the Amethyst Empress, and the bat connection works to substitute for the AE's dragon connection.

But the bat stuff with Sansa can also serve other purposes, like obviously it highlights her Whent connection.

Bats themselves may provide some sort of tie-in between dragons (+associated magics) and the Old Gods (+associated magics). I'm pretty unclear on how that would work, but that's the sense I get.

The Harpy of Ghis in Meereen is described as "in place of arms she had the wings of a bat or a dragon."  The Harpy is a woman in power, connected to the image of a bat or a dragon.  In addition to bat and dragon wings depicted as similar, if not identical, in this scene, bat wings and dragon wings are the similarly described as "leather" or "leathery."  Like you, I'm not sure how these tie in exactly, but there might be some sort of connection there.

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6 hours ago, Isobel Harper said:

The arms of the suitors/champions in the Ashford Tourney Theory all match Viserion in some way: Baratheon has gold, Tyrell has gold, Lannister has red and gold, Hardyng has white and red, and Targaryen has red.  Viserion is often called the "white dragon."  His scales are white/cream with gold, he has red and gold blood, and his flames are described as gold.  Not sure what the connection is, if there is one.  I might be reading too much into this one.

 

I'm in with you.  The Ashford Tourney is too much related to Sansa to be a coincidence IMHO.  And if somehow the bat/dragon/viserion/sansa connection is revealed you will have found it.  

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