The Bat and the Wolf?

[bemused]

I can't believe I typed that hu-u-uge post and forgot to say that if Sansa ever rules Harrenhal,  the quote @darksister1001 provided earlier shows us a great potential sigil for Sansa .. The northern girl. Winterfell's daughter. We heard she killed the king with a spell, and afterward changed into a wolf with big leather wings like a bat, and flew out a tower window.

A lot of stuff relating to Shadrich is just occurring to me , but I may have to put it in a new thread.(I'll see what it turns into.)

[Ser Pip]

I've suspected that the Whents have a bigger part to play in the story. Oswell Whent at the Tower of Joy and Yoren's comment that Lady Whent has always been good to The Watch suggested to me th at they had some relevance.

[Springwatch]

On 7/6/2016 at 11:28 PM, Mooz said:

In reference to what the times actually are:

What is this method of telling time that GRRM uses?

Here's a breakdown of the Named Hours which you might be interested in:

• Hour of the Bat: some time during deep night to early morning
• Hour of the Eel: just after the hour of the bat
• Hour of Ghosts: just after the hour of the eel
• Hour of the Owl: a few hours after the hour of the bat, yet till before dawn
• Hour of the Wolf¹: "the blackest part of night"², coming after the hour of the owl and preceding the dawn³.
• Hour of the Nightingale: the period coming directly after the hour of the Wolf. Most likely dawn.

 

Wow, this could be the schedule for the Long Night to come - the bat-dragons arrive late in the day it seems, then a lot of strange stuff happens (including, for some reason, eels) - but then as expected the wolves fight back in the darkest hour before dawn, and finally nightingales sing the Song of Ice & Fire and credits roll.

ETA

It's bit worrying that Sansa and Arya fall asleep at the hours mentioned - in real life I've heard 'falling asleep' used as a way of referring to dying (eg on tombstones). And Arya already has that unlucky remark of Jon's that she will be found still and frozen at the end of winter. I do hope not.

[Isobel Harper]

On 6/16/2016 at 7:07 PM, Khal Pod said:

Maybe I need to do some reading on other theories connected to this because I think I'm missing the significance. Why do you think that passage you quoted is confirming the hour Arya fell asleep? To me, it seems more like an example of Arya's family pride than anything else. Is this just meant to be an example of Sansa and Arya favoring Cat (whents) and Ned respectively? Or is there more to it?

Well, if the hours represent the chronological order of the books, hour of the bat would in someway represent AGoT, no?  Both the hour of the bat and AGoT occur first chronologically, and the dragons (which as we discussed previously share a connection with bats, with regard to language in the series) are born in AGoT.  And bats represent rebirth or resurrection in mythology.  (I could really go off on a tangent on this one...)

Let's look at how Sansa's arch progresses in AGoT.  At the beginning of the book, Sansa starts off as a "wolf," then loses her wolf (Lady) and becomes the "little bird," "little dove" which is (imo) part of her eventual transformation into a "bat."  So perhaps the hour that the girls sleep represents some sort of transformation? 

[Isobel Harper]

A few weeks ago, I came across a site stating that, according to one source, the heart of Scorpio represented a bat.  I kept it in mind, hoping to research it later.  Now I can't find it.  :/

But this discovery reminded me of Sansa when she first visits the godswood to meet Dontos. 

 Sansa turned away without thinking and ran to her wardrobe. Oh, what am I doing? she asked herself as she dressed. This is madness. She could see the lights of many torches on the curtain walls. Had Stannis and Renly come at last to kill Joffrey and claim their brother's throne? If so, the guards would raise the drawbridge, cutting off Maegor's Holdfast from the outer castle. Sansa threw a plain grey cloak over her shoulders and picked up the knife she used to cut her meat. If it is some trap, better that I die than let them hurt me more, she told herself. She hid the blade under her cloak. ACoK, Sansa II

If caught in some death trap, she would rather kill herself than let someone else do it.  This is reminiscent of a scorpion, who, when surrounded by a ring of fire  (surrounded by something trying to kill it), would rather sting and kill itself than be burnt. 

 

[Seams]

@Isobel Harper I'm glad this thread is resurfacing. As I've slowly made my way through the 2016 threads nominated for recognition, I realized that this discussion was one of the most enlightening I've had in this forum, really helping to illuminate an important part of the subtext that had been a mystery to me. I'm sorry I didn't think to nominate it when the floor was still open.

Speaking of scorpio, though, I have been wondering whether crabs and scorpions and spiders are all supposed to be linked in the symbolism of the books. I also wonder whether the death of Lord Rickard Stark is part of the crab symbolism: like shellfish, he was cooked in his own armor.

If you're right that Sansa embodies a "scorpion" at that moment, maybe it's something she inherits from her paternal grandfather's side.

But what would any of this mean for the scorpion broach that Prince Oberyn gives to Joffrey as a wedding gift?

[The Fattest Leech]

3 hours ago, Isobel Harper said:

A few weeks ago, I came across a site stating that, according to one source, the heart of Scorpio represented a bat.  I kept it in mind, hoping to research it later.  Now I can't find it.  :/

But this discovery reminded me of Sansa when she first visits the godswood to meet Dontos. 

 Sansa turned away without thinking and ran to her wardrobe. Oh, what am I doing? she asked herself as she dressed. This is madness. She could see the lights of many torches on the curtain walls. Had Stannis and Renly come at last to kill Joffrey and claim their brother's throne? If so, the guards would raise the drawbridge, cutting off Maegor's Holdfast from the outer castle. Sansa threw a plain grey cloak over her shoulders and picked up the knife she used to cut her meat. If it is some trap, better that I die than let them hurt me more, she told herself. She hid the blade under her cloak. ACoK, Sansa II

If caught in some death trap, she would rather kill herself than let someone else do it.  This is reminiscent of a scorpion, who, when surrounded by a ring of fire  (surrounded by something trying to kill it), would rather sting and kill itself than be burnt. 

 

Are you perchance referring to this??? Maybe, maybe not? Just trying to help because this has my curiosity peeked.

• Scorpio is the sign of the shaman. Like the Dracula myth, the shaman is a shapeshifter and traverser of hidden realms. The bat is the shaman's totem, showing that the shaman is able and willing, like the bat in its cave, to fly into underworld darkness to retrieve sustenance and power.
• Scorpio demonstrates that fear and power tend to be sides of the same coin. Often what we fear has the potential to change us into something more powerful than we were. But real power is not the kind that dominates, despite what we see in our current world.
• Source link here. The sun in Scorpio.

1 hour ago, Seams said:

@Isobel Harper I'm glad this thread is resurfacing. As I've slowly made my way through the 2016 threads nominated for recognition, I realized that this discussion was one of the most enlightening I've had in this forum, really helping to illuminate an important part of the subtext that had been a mystery to me. I'm sorry I didn't think to nominate it when the floor was still open.

Speaking of scorpio, though, I have been wondering whether crabs and scorpions and spiders are all supposed to be linked in the symbolism of the books. I also wonder whether the death of Lord Rickard Stark is part of the crab symbolism: like shellfish, he was cooked in his own armor.

If you're right that Sansa embodies a "scorpion" at that moment, maybe it's something she inherits from her paternal grandfather's side.

But what would any of this mean for the scorpion broach that Prince Oberyn gives to Joffrey as a wedding gift?

I always thought the scorpion gift Oberyn gives was a not so veiled threat that calls back to the notion that Dorne is not only associated with scorpions, but they were once used in a sneak attack against Daeron by way of Lyonel Tyrell during the conquest. We later see Oberyn poison Gregor, which Oberyn means as an attack on Tywin. Boy oh boy, Oberyn misjudged that little plan

• When Daeron I Targaryen, the Young Dragon, attempted the conquest of Dorne, Lord Lyonel commanded the army that invaded via Prince's Pass. After the initial victory, Daeron appointed Lord Tyrell as governor of Dorne. Lord Tyrell liked Dornish women and one night he pulled the rope that would signal for a wench to come to his bed, and a hundred scorpions fell from the canopy instead. His death sparked new revolts, and the conquest was undone in a fortnight.

[Isobel Harper]

5 hours ago, Seams said:

@Isobel Harper I'm glad this thread is resurfacing. As I've slowly made my way through the 2016 threads nominated for recognition, I realized that this discussion was one of the most enlightening I've had in this forum, really helping to illuminate an important part of the subtext that had been a mystery to me. I'm sorry I didn't think to nominate it when the floor was still open.

Speaking of scorpio, though, I have been wondering whether crabs and scorpions and spiders are all supposed to be linked in the symbolism of the books. I also wonder whether the death of Lord Rickard Stark is part of the crab symbolism: like shellfish, he was cooked in his own armor.

If you're right that Sansa embodies a "scorpion" at that moment, maybe it's something she inherits from her paternal grandfather's side.

But what would any of this mean for the scorpion broach that Prince Oberyn gives to Joffrey as a wedding gift?

Thanks!  I'm glad you've enjoyed the discussion.  Better luck next year, I guess.

Now that you bring it up, I do see an allusion to scorpions in the way Rickard and Brandon die, though the symbolism is broken up between two people.  Brandon would rather kill himself than let his father burn.

I agree with Fattest Leech.  The scorpion that Oberyn gifted was likely a veiled threat, basically saying "we've submitted now, but soon we'll strike against you."

3 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Are you perchance referring to this??? Maybe, maybe not? Just trying to help because this has my curiosity peeked.

• Scorpio is the sign of the shaman. Like the Dracula myth, the shaman is a shapeshifter and traverser of hidden realms. The bat is the shaman's totem, showing that the shaman is able and willing, like the bat in its cave, to fly into underworld darkness to retrieve sustenance and power.
• Scorpio demonstrates that fear and power tend to be sides of the same coin. Often what we fear has the potential to change us into something more powerful than we were. But real power is not the kind that dominates, despite what we see in our current world.
• Source link here. The sun in Scorpio.

 

No, that wasn't the source, but I'll look through it later. 

There's a star in the middle of Scorpio, it's "heart."  Someone postulated that it represented a bat.  I think it was on Wikipedia somewhere, but I could be wrong.

[Wrl6199]

3 minutes ago, Isobel Harper said:

Thanks!  I'm glad you've enjoyed the discussion.  Better luck next year, I guess.

Now that you bring it up, I do see an allusion to scorpions in the way Rickard and Brandon die, though the symbolism is broken up between two people.  Brandon would rather kill himself than let his father burn.

I agree with Fattest Leech.  The scorpion that Oberyn gifted was likely a veiled threat, basically saying "we've submitted now, but soon we'll strike against you."

No, that wasn't the source, but I'll look through it later. 

There's a star in the middle of Scorpio, it's "heart."  Someone postulated that it represented a bat.  I think it was on Wikipedia somewhere, but I could be wrong.

It was a good discussion.

[Isobel Harper]

On 1/16/2017 at 7:56 AM, Isobel Harper said:

A few weeks ago, I came across a site stating that, according to one source, the heart of Scorpio represented a bat.  I kept it in mind, hoping to research it later.  Now I can't find it.  :/

But this discovery reminded me of Sansa when she first visits the godswood to meet Dontos. 

 Sansa turned away without thinking and ran to her wardrobe. Oh, what am I doing? she asked herself as she dressed. This is madness. She could see the lights of many torches on the curtain walls. Had Stannis and Renly come at last to kill Joffrey and claim their brother's throne? If so, the guards would raise the drawbridge, cutting off Maegor's Holdfast from the outer castle. Sansa threw a plain grey cloak over her shoulders and picked up the knife she used to cut her meat. If it is some trap, better that I die than let them hurt me more, she told herself. She hid the blade under her cloak. ACoK, Sansa II

If caught in some death trap, she would rather kill herself than let someone else do it.  This is reminiscent of a scorpion, who, when surrounded by a ring of fire  (surrounded by something trying to kill it), would rather sting and kill itself than be burnt. 

 

Found it.

"Dutch scholar Grotius (1583-1645), however, said that the word Antares signifies a Bat, which, as Vespertilio, Greek tragic poet Sophocles (496?-406 B.C.) perhaps called it."

http://www.constellationsofwords.com/stars/Antares.html

In ancient Egyptian mythology, Antares (the name of this star) represented Serket.  Serket was the goddess of scorpions, magic, and healing poisonous bites and stings.  Her name literally means "she who tightens/paralyzes the throat."  She was associated with poisonous creatures, such as scorpions and snakes.

On one hand, Serket was a force of protection against these creatures or a healer of their bites or stings.  During Ra's journey through the Underworld each night, Serket protects him, namely from Apep the great serpent.  She guards dead souls from Apep as well in their journey to the afterlife.  

On the other hand, Serket could use these poisonous creatures to punish or kill.  And when Apep the great serpent is captured, Serket guards him. 

A few things regarding Scorpio and Serket stand out to me, and remind me of Sansa. 

Scorpio kills Orion, a giant.  GoHH prophesied that Sansa will kill a giant.  The prophecy depicts Sansa with snakes in her hair with venom dripping from their mouths.  Egyptians depicted Serket with a scorpion head or wearing a scorpion on her head.  Venomous creatures like snakes are also associated with Serket. 

As Egyptian religion evolved, Serket evolved from being her on deity to being an aspect of Isis.  In some tales, Serket is the wife of Osiris and mother to Horus.  She protects and guards Horus as he grows into a man, and in one instance has Horus healed from a bite of a snake, which was sent by Set.  Egyptians depicted Horus as a falcon or a man with a falcon head.  He was the god of the sky.  Sansa protects Sweetrobin, an Arryn "falcon" whose sigil is a white falcon on sky blue.

Last but not least, there's the meaning of Serket's name: she who tightens the throat.  Joffrey was poisoned with the Strangler, and Sansa has kept her poisonous hair net since that night.

[Isobel Harper]

^^This isn't related to Sansa, but there is a House Antaryon in Braavos.  Ferrego Antaryon is the current Sea Lord.  Antares is a red giant, a dying star.  Ferrego is ill and dying.  

Ferrego is reminiscent of "ferrum" the Latin word for iron.  The name Ferrego Antaryon could be interpreted as "iron of a star" or "fire iron" - either Dawn (which was forged from a fallen star) or a flaming sword. 

[Seams]

11 hours ago, Isobel Harper said:

... the word Antares signifies a Bat, which, as Vespertilio, Greek tragic poet Sophocles (496?-406 B.C.) perhaps called it."

http://www.constellationsofwords.com/stars/Antares.html

In ancient Egyptian mythology, Antares (the name of this star) represented Serket.  Serket was the goddess of scorpions, magic, and healing poisonous bites and stings.  Her name literally means "she who tightens/paralyzes the throat."  She was associated with poisonous creatures, such as scorpions and snakes....

Great find! This is terrific stuff.

Interesting to contemplate a Sansa / Martell alliance, even if it takes place only in a symbolic sense, not through conscious plotting by the characters. I wonder whether Sansa is an abbreviation of "Sand Snake"? GRRM may be deliberately giving us a hint that Sansa (and Arya?) are the daughters Ned (or Catelyn?) left behind to fulfill his mission, just as Oberyn set his Sand Snakes loose in the world.

As the collective mind of this forum has been working through the sword symbolism, I have recently started to wonder about a connection between throats and sheaths or scabbards. Joffrey receives a sword for his groom gift but he also receives a special scabbard that Tywin has specially made for him. (There is also the scene where Gendry's sword comes through the back of Biter's head, and Brienne thinks it is Biter's tongue coming at her.) The wordplay connection between "swords" and "words" is pretty clear, so it makes sense that a mouth with a sword in it would be unable to utter words - you can use words or swords but not both at once.

If there is also a deliberate wordplay connection between "bats" and "stab" (another way of saying, "Stick 'em with the pointy end"), this throat foreshadowing for Sansa could become clearer with your Antares / Serket discovery. Maybe the meaning is that Sansa can use words to achieve her goals (she persuaded Joffrey to spare Ser Dontos; Littlefinger is teaching her to lie; she sings to Sweetrobin to manipulate him) but she can also call on her hidden choking aspect to deal with people if the need arises.

In addition to scabbards and sheaths, the throat symbolism almost certainly connects to caves, tunnels and sewer systems (about which Tyrion is the only expert in the series, although Ser Jorah and Ser Barristan made their way through one system). I am also interested lately in wells, which seem to be part of the many death/rebirth symbols throughout the books. I don't know if wells are part of the throat motif, though.

[St Daga]

On 3/15/2016 at 0:29 PM, DarkSister1001 said:

I was rereading this passage a few weeks ago and this stood out to me too but for different reasons.  Did Sansa have a "wolf dream" about Bran?  In the way Bran & Rickon saw Ned die?

This passage about Sansa telling Ned that she dreamed Bran was smiling was interesting. At first, I thought, she is just attempting to put a happy, sweet smelling cloak over the sadness of Bran's injury. But the more times I read it, the more times I think it is something else.

I am not sure it is a wolf dream, but it could be. After all, Lady's bones are probably buried at Winterfell in the lichyard by this time, and Sansa could have a sense of what is going on at home based on Lady's bones. I think those children and direwolves are connected, both in life and in death.

But I have begun to interpret this as perhaps Sansa has a some the "sight" that is separate from her wolf blood. It seems to be a bit like Bran and/or Rickon's green sight/dream abilities. I know Sansa is not sleeping under a weirwood tree, but it is the heart tree in a godswood and that has to be important. Did Bran send her that dream? Did she dream it from the roots network of the godswoods that are probably all connected in Westeros? Is it something she sensed on her own.

I wonder about that "red hair" of the Tully's might not be trying to tell us something. I wonder if there is something in the Tully blood, or the Whent blood from Catelyn's mother that gives those children a different kind of magic that the wolf/warg gift they received from their Stark blood. Sometimes when I read Catelyn, I see a little Cassandra complex in her, as in she has some okay ideas, but no body really listens to her. It's not like she has visions and people deny them, but it's like a crooked version of that. But I digress with Catelyn, Sorry.

I feel like bat wings come up several times in the story in regards to Sansa. She is not a character that I have deeply concentrated on in the past, but there has got to be something important in her story lines development. Sansa's Whent heritage could turn out to be very important. We know that Harrenhal was important to Arya's development, and I think it will be to Sansa's as well. It seems like her connection with Baelish, his being the current lord of Harrenhal, and the curse that seems to involve the lords of Harrenhal is important. I hope she pushes him out a tower at Harrenhal! I don't see how they will ever get back up to the Eyrie in winter for Littlefinger to go out the Moon Door, so a nice tall, creepy tower at Harrenhal will do nicely!

On 3/16/2016 at 8:59 AM, DarkSister1001 said:

And then there's this...

Quote

"So much for my brave brothers of the Kingsguard."  The Hound gave a snort of contempt.  "Who killed him?"

"The Imp, it's thought.  Him and his little wife."

"What wife?"

"I forgot, you're been hiding under a rock.  The northern girl.  Winterfell's daughter.  We heard she killed the king with a spell, and afterward changed into a wolf with big leather wings like a bat, and flew out a tower window.  But she left the dwarf behind and Cersei means to have his head."

That's stupid, Arya thought.  Sansa only knows songs, not spells, and she'd never marry the Imp.

ASoS, Chapter 74

 

This comment has always struck me much in the way that the Frey's claimed that Robb turned into a wolf and attacked people at the Red Wedding, and that is why he was killed. It's so far from the truth. Except, we have only Catelyn's POV, so maybe something else did happen there. Not that Robb turned into a wolf, but that maybe his ability to warg into Grey Wind manifested in a different way. Maybe that is why Robb and Grey Wind's heads were separated from their bodies, if that actually happened.

And even if nothing happened, I think that is GRRM's way of showing us that Robb was indeed a warg, even though we never get his POV. I think this is GRRM's way of telling us, pay attention to Sansa. There is more to her than you know!

And maybe songs are spells. Maybe some of the music we hear isn't just telling a story, but people binding spells into the music. What was Rhaegar actually doing while singing his songs and playing his silver harp? Maybe Sansa's singing ties her to some magic that is unclear to us at this time?

On 3/16/2016 at 10:07 AM, Jak Scaletongue said:

Is it just me, or is it a little odd that bats are mentioned explicitly?  Beside bears, wolves and lions? And then compared to "lesser creatures"?  The other three are large predators - "Which of these things is not like the others?" Why would bats be mentioned along with three large predatory animals?  And not one of the "countless lesser creatures"?

Yes, I agree that bats are mentioned often enough in text to pay attention. Bat's are animals of the night, as are wolves, for the most part. And Sansa has a lot of moon imagery in her story. Bat's and wolves and moons. It's important! The Starks are tied to Winter certainly, but also seem to be tied to the night and moon turns! These things give them either strength or power, I would say.

On 4/30/2016 at 6:50 PM, The Fattest Leech said:

Storm, Sansa 4. This the chapter before Joffery dies at the Purple Wedding. 

Tyrion scarce touched his food, Sansa noticed, though he drank several cups of the wine. For herself, she tried a little of the Dornish eggs, but the peppers burned her mouth. Otherwise she only nibbled at the fruit and fish and honeycakes. Every time Joffrey looked at her, her tummy got so fluttery that she felt as though she'd swallowed a bat.

I think she has issues with her belly a couple of times in the story. 

Sorry, not bat's exactly, but fluttering/flapping inside her.

Prince Joffrey might be there. Her betrothed. Just thinking it made her feel a strange fluttering inside, even though they were not to marry for years and years. Sansa I-aGoT

"That's unkind." Sansa could feel her heart fluttering in her chest. "You're frightening me. I want to go now."  Sansa II-aGoT

And from the Purple Wedding ... Joffrey and Margaery joined hands to lift the greatsword and swung it down together in a silvery arc. When the piecrust broke, the doves burst forth in a swirl of white feathers, scattering in every direction, flapping for the windows and the rafters. A roar of delight went up from the benches, and the fiddlers and pipers in the gallery began to play a sprightly tune. Joff took his bride in his arms, and whirled her around merrily.

A serving man placed a slice of hot pigeon pie in front of Tyrion and covered it with a spoon of lemon cream. The pigeons were well and truly cooked in this pie, but he found them no more appetizing than the white ones fluttering about the hall. Sansa was not eating either. "You're deathly pale, my lady," Tyrion said. "You need a breath of cool air, and I need a fresh doublet." He stood and offered her his hand. "Come."  Tyrion VIII-aSoS.  So we see this from Tyrion's POV while Sansa is thinking she felt like she swallowed a bad. I find the word choice interesting, to say the least.

I think Sansa has a strong "winged" connection, whether it's birds or bats. Another winged wolf, perhaps? Or "the" winged wolf, and we have been looking at the wrong Stark kid to fulfill this idea!

On 5/3/2016 at 7:13 PM, The Fattest Leech said:

I have felt for a while now that Sansa has a strong connection to Harrenhal that the other Stark kids don't... even though Arya was actually there, her connection was different. For Arya, this was her first step in becoming a servant of dead. Where she learned to literally serve food and drink (like the drink in HoBW) and started her selection of who lives/ who dies that continues to develop from this point on.

I think that Arya's time at Harrenhal was incredibly important to her development, and I think it will be to Sansa's too. If she get's there, which, I strongly feel that she will. But we have no idea what GRRM might do with Sansa's story if and when she gets to Harrenhal. But I don't think Harrenhal is a place to put down roots. It is cursed for a reason! Is it because of the godseye and the Isle of Faces, or because of the bad blood that went into building the monstrous huge castle, but I don't know that anyone is meant to hold it.

Although, if Sansa's destiny lies with either Sandor of the burned face or Timett son of Timett of the Burned Men, then it seems fitting that her seat might be the burned castle that is Harrenhal! It just seems like Sansa will not end up with a pretty, charming, or courtly prince, but maybe that is just my take.

1 hour ago, Seams said:

GRRM may be deliberately giving us a hint that Sansa (and Arya?) are the daughters Ned (or Catelyn?) left behind to fulfill his mission, just as Oberyn set his Sand Snakes loose in the world.

This is interesting, but would it not apply to all of their children, not just the daughters? I can't hardly forget that Catelyn let her daughters go in her heart (I will never understand that thought by Cat in her aGoT Catelyn II POV, never!), and really did not seem to concerned with them until she felt like Bran and Rickon were murdered. I do feel this does apply to Ned as the father of Sansa and Arya in the parallel of Oberyn and his daughters, which I really like!

This is a really nice discussion. I love the look at the Whent and Lothston blood/history in combination with the Stark and Tully blood and what it could mean in the story.

 

[Isobel Harper]

13 hours ago, Seams said:

As the collective mind of this forum has been working through the sword symbolism, I have recently started to wonder about a connection between throats and sheaths or scabbards. Joffrey receives a sword for his groom gift but he also receives a special scabbard that Tywin has specially made for him. (There is also the scene where Gendry's sword comes through the back of Biter's head, and Brienne thinks it is Biter's tongue coming at her.) The wordplay connection between "swords" and "words" is pretty clear, so it makes sense that a mouth with a sword in it would be unable to utter words - you can use words or swords but not both at once.

If there is also a deliberate wordplay connection between "bats" and "stab" (another way of saying, "Stick 'em with the pointy end"), this throat foreshadowing for Sansa could become clearer with your Antares / Serket discovery. Maybe the meaning is that Sansa can use words to achieve her goals (she persuaded Joffrey to spare Ser Dontos; Littlefinger is teaching her to lie; she sings to Sweetrobin to manipulate him) but she can also call on her hidden choking aspect to deal with people if the need arises.

Remember the thorn and rose symbol we discussed in the Puns and Wordplay  thread?  The role a woman takes in politics can be the rose (flower) or the thorns.  "Words" or the "sword."  Diplomacy or knighthood and/or leadership.  Sansa is an icon of the former;  Arya, Brienne, and Queen Nymeria, the latter. 

How bats and stab can be part of this dichotomy...  Well, the bats in Sansa's belly could be children?  Ned tells Arya that her sons will be "maesters, High Septon, lords, etc" to which Arya replies "No, that's Sansa!"  Sansa will change the world through her children.  Arya will change the world through a more direct means.  I might be over-thinking bats/stab. 

Better yet, maybe the bat is Sansa AND Arya.  While at Harrenhal, Arya thinks of herself as a mouse.  Sansa is associated with birds.  A mouse + wings = a bat!  Qoherys (the possible ancestor of Lothston and Whent) might be wordplay on coheiress.  Ruling Harrenhal is something the girls will do together.  Calling back to that rose symbolism, the entire rose is the rose-flower and the thorns.  Both Sansa and Arya are two parts of a whole. 

14 hours ago, Seams said:

 

In addition to scabbards and sheaths, the throat symbolism almost certainly connects to caves, tunnels and sewer systems (about which Tyrion is the only expert in the series, although Ser Jorah and Ser Barristan made their way through one system). I am also interested lately in wells, which seem to be part of the many death/rebirth symbols throughout the books. I don't know if wells are part of the throat motif, though.

I've seen you discuss the symbolism of wells in other threads, so I'm somewhat familiar with the idea already.  Numerous people are thrown down wells to their death.  These people are essentially buried alive.  But wells also give water, necessary for life.  We have yet to see someone reemerge or be rescued from a well, but that's powerful death/rebirth symbolism there. 

As for sheaths, Walder Frey makes a quip at the Red Wedding that a "sword needs a sheath."  A literal sheathed sword is a symbol of peace or at least agreement to not fight.  But an unsheathed sword is a threat of violence.  So, there's the idea that a sheathed "sword" can create life or not destroy life, and an unsheath sword destroying it.  A sheathed/unsheathed sword doesn't necessarily parallel with life/death though, at least with regard to Jon.  He is unable to unsheath his sword during his assassination.  Literally, her can't defend his life, although symbolically the unsheathed sword represents dying. Think of Jon being a parallel to a sword - sword in the darkness, SotM, or LB. If Jon is resurrected, he goes from "sheathed" (dead) to "unsheathed" (alive) again. 

[Seams]

9 hours ago, Isobel Harper said:

Remember the thorn and rose symbol we discussed in the Puns and Wordplay  thread?  The role a woman takes in politics can be the rose (flower) or the thorns.  "Words" or the "sword."  Diplomacy or knighthood and/or leadership.  Sansa is an icon of the former;  Arya, Brienne, and Queen Nymeria, the latter. 

How bats and stab can be part of this dichotomy...  Well, the bats in Sansa's belly could be children?  Ned tells Arya that her sons will be "maesters, High Septon, lords, etc" to which Arya replies "No, that's Sansa!"  Sansa will change the world through her children.  Arya will change the world through a more direct means.  I might be over-thinking bats/stab. 

Better yet, maybe the bat is Sansa AND Arya.  While at Harrenhal, Arya thinks of herself as a mouse.  Sansa is associated with birds.  A mouse + wings = a bat!  Qoherys (the possible ancestor of Lothston and Whent) might be wordplay on coheiress.  Ruling Harrenhal is something the girls will do together.  Calling back to that rose symbolism, the entire rose is the rose-flower and the thorns.  Both Sansa and Arya are two parts of a whole. 

I've seen you discuss the symbolism of wells in other threads, so I'm somewhat familiar with the idea already.  Numerous people are thrown down wells to their death.  These people are essentially buried alive.  But wells also give water, necessary for life.  We have yet to see someone reemerge or be rescued from a well, but that's powerful death/rebirth symbolism there. 

As for sheaths, Walder Frey makes a quip at the Red Wedding that a "sword needs a sheath."  A literal sheathed sword is a symbol of peace or at least agreement to not fight.  But an unsheathed sword is a threat of violence.  So, there's the idea that a sheathed "sword" can create life or not destroy life, and an unsheath sword destroying it.  A sheathed/unsheathed sword doesn't necessarily parallel with life/death though, at least with regard to Jon.  He is unable to unsheath his sword during his assassination.  Literally, her can't defend his life, although symbolically the unsheathed sword represents dying. Think of Jon being a parallel to a sword - sword in the darkness, SotM, or LB. If Jon is resurrected, he goes from "sheathed" (dead) to "unsheathed" (alive) again. 

I have this persistent feeling that Sansa will not have children, and that she may live out her days (or die young) as a virgin. So I think the pregnancy symbolism with her is entirely symbolic - but it's definitely there, and Joffrey is the "father" of her false bat pregnancy.

I think the following passage gets at Arya's future at Harrenhal. It also implies a connection between Arya's future role and the role played by Old Nan at Winterfell, who seems to have an interesting back story that has not yet been revealed:

The lord and maester swept from the room, giving her not so much as a backward glance. When they were gone, Arya took the letter and carried it to the hearth, stirring the logs with a poker to wake the flames anew. She watched the parchment twist, blacken, and flare up. If the Lannisters hurt Bran and Rickon, Robb will kill them every one. He'll never bend the knee, never, never, never. He's not afraid of any of them. Curls of ash floated up the chimney. Arya squatted beside the fire, watching them rise through a veil of hot tears. If Winterfell is truly gone, is this my home now? Am I still Arya, or only Nan the serving girl, for forever and forever and forever?

(ACoK, Arya X)

The repetition of "never, never, never" and "forever and forever and forever" puts Arya in a strong relationship with Mormont's raven, who repeats key words three times. (It also puts her in a strong parallel with Edgar Allan Poe's raven, who specifically uses the word "nevermore" in the famous poem.) So the mouse allusion is true for Arya but here also is a different black flying creature. (And the curls of ash - representing her brothers? - may be part of the same set of symbols.)

I just searched on the word "well" in the Brienne POVs, looking for the following excerpt but the search showed me that Sansa's disappearance is sometimes described in association with the word "well," as in "My sister is lost as well. A girl of three-and-ten with auburn hair, fair to look upon" (AFfC, Brienne I) and "She could only hope that Ser Dontos had hidden Sansa well. But if so, how will I ever find her?" (AFfC, Brienne I). I wonder whether a more thorough search would show us that Sansa is symbolically hiding in a "well" when she leaves King's Landing?

But I was looking for this paragraph, which is the only example I can think of that describes someone emerging from a well. First, Pyg emerges from behind a sapling and some bushes, "so caked with dirt that he looked as if he had sprouted from the earth" (AFfC, Brienne IV). Then:

Everything seemed to happen in a heartbeat. A second man slipped over the lip of the well, making no more noise than a snake might make slithering across a pile of wet leaves. He wore an iron halfhelm wrapped in stained red silk, and had a short, thick throwing spear in hand. Brienne knew him too. From behind her came a rustling as a head poked down through the red leaves. Crabb was standing underneath the weirwood. He looked up and saw the face. "Here," he called to Brienne. "It's your fool."

(AFfC, Brienne IV)

The man in the well was Tymeon. Shagwell then drops from the branches of the weirwood and smashes Crabb's knee. (The name Shagwell may represent another well allusion.)

If people who emerge from wells are reborn as snakes, and Sansa is symbolically hiding in a well, that would reinforce the notion that Sansa and Arya might be Ned's version of Sand Snakes. If Tymeon's rebirth from the well foreshadows Sansa's future as an angry fighter, I wonder whether Pyg and Shagwell represent other Stark children or other characters Brienne will eventually meet? Arya is often in underground places and Bran is associated with weirwood trees (although the "shag" in Shagwell could represent Shaggy Dog).

Back on the bat motif: in one of the Batman movies, doesn't young Bruce Wayne fall in a well which is filled with bats? Maybe the people or things that are reborn from wells are bats?

We know that Bran and his companions must emerge from the well at the Night Fort when Sam leads them through the Black Gate, but it is not described. Maybe the two men (presumed to be Ilyrio and Varys) who Arya witnesses coming up from the hidden stair at the Red Keep also represent a "rebirth" from a well.

You are absolutely right to point out the wedding/bedding symbolism of the sword and sheath, of course. Or even without a wedding, just the sex act itself. Which reminds me of Brandon Stark and Lady Dustin. This symbolism stuff just never ends, does it?

[GloubieBoulga]

Concerning the well : weak and/or handicapped babies are reputed to be threw down and CotF come to take them; there is also Mellara's story, young Cersei's friend who seems to come back in Cersei's thoughts and dreams in AFFC. And also the false well of Night Fort, from which Sam, Gilly and the babe emerges to conduct Bran beyond the Wall.

I come back later for the "bat theme", because reading all these posts, I thought about a common theme between dragons and bats (not just the physical "leather wings". I mean, "leather wings" and others facts permit us to link dragons and bats, but why ? That the "why" I'm thinking about ^^)

[DarkSister1001]

On ‎2‎/‎6‎/‎2017 at 7:45 AM, St Daga said:

I am not sure it is a wolf dream, but it could be. After all, Lady's bones are probably buried at Winterfell in the lichyard by this time, and Sansa could have a sense of what is going on at home based on Lady's bones. I think those children and direwolves are connected, both in life and in death.

I agree. 

If she can receive information via Lady's bones it will be very interesting if/when Ned's bones reach the crypts.  I'm of a mind that the lower crypt levels are inaccessible bc of overgrown Weirwood roots.  Perhaps even the oldest Starks shaped the roots to be thrones like BR and have their bones resting there. 

On ‎2‎/‎6‎/‎2017 at 7:45 AM, St Daga said:

But I have begun to interpret this as perhaps Sansa has a some the "sight" that is separate from her wolf blood.

IIRC there's a SSM that says she has the "gift".  IMO her's will be underdeveloped in comparison to her siblings bc she doesn't have the wolf to help her. 

Are you suggesting she has the "wolf blood" like Arya, Lyanna & Brandon?  Or simply her Stark ancestry?

[St Daga]

9 minutes ago, DarkSister1001 said:

If she can receive information via Lady's bones it will be very interesting if/when Ned's bones reach the crypts.  I'm of a mind that the lower crypt levels are inaccessible bc of overgrown Weirwood roots.  Perhaps even the oldest Starks shaped the roots to be thrones like BR and have their bones resting there. 

The weirwood throne idea is interesting. We need to get into the lower level of the crypts. I think that Jon will be the one to take us there, but I don't know how long it will take him to get back to Winterfell. One of those Stark kids needs to return home ASAP!

11 minutes ago, DarkSister1001 said:

Are you suggesting she has the "wolf blood" like Arya, Lyanna & Brandon?  Or simply her Stark ancestry?

I think all of the Stark kids have the wolfs blood, but they have it in different degree's. I think Ned had it too, it was just controlled, probably by his time with Jon Arryn in the Vale. Probably Rickon, Arya, and maybe Robb (It would be interesting to see his behavior on campaign, and not from his mothers perspective) while Bran and Sansa probably have it the least, but it's there. Jon seems to be in the middle; calm and thoughtful at times and rash and having berserker/black out moments when he is angry.

I guess I think it could be something from the Tully side, separate from her warging/wolf blood Stark genes. Fire in their hair is mentioned several times, and a big deal is made of that auburn hair. Lysa's suspicious behavior makes me think she could have "feelings" about things, and Cat did believe in signs. I think it could come from either the Tully or Whent blood, and could have driven Lysa to madness (among other things, I guess). I can't pinpoint anything in the text right now, but it's just a feeling I have. That Tully blood is special. It, combined with the Stark blood, has made those children special. I think it was something besides just the Stark blood that drew Bloodraven to Bran, and that something is in the blood of all of Cat's children.

[DarkSister1001]

1 minute ago, St Daga said:

The weirwood throne idea is interesting. We need to get into the lower level of the crypts. I think that Jon will be the one to take us there, but I don't know how long it will take him to get back to Winterfell. One of those Stark kids needs to return home ASAP!

Yup!  I think it'll be Jon in wolf dream following his stabbing.  Injuries and illnesses seem to be a precursor to their gift blossoming.  As Varamyr pointed out Jon is strong, but untrained.  His "coma dream" will bring him to the crypts where he learns of his parentage and the dark side of the Stark family tree.  Sorry for the crackpot but it's all I got these days!  LOL

IIRC Ned was the only one to describe the "wolf blood" and it seemed to me he was using it to highlight their recklessness.  Sansa is anything but reckless (now) but I could definitely see something happening.  There's a good case made about her snow WF that seems to point to wolf dreams. 

Their auburn hair and being "kissed by fire" always gave me pause too.  Do you remember if Jon ever thinks of his siblings as being "KBF" after learning the term from Ygritte?

[St Daga]

20 minutes ago, DarkSister1001 said:

Yup!  I think it'll be Jon in wolf dream following his stabbing.  Injuries and illnesses seem to be a precursor to their gift blossoming.  As Varamyr pointed out Jon is strong, but untrained.  His "coma dream" will bring him to the crypts where he learns of his parentage and the dark side of the Stark family tree.  Sorry for the crackpot but it's all I got these days!  LOL

Certainly injury and near death (unless he did actually die and was reborn) certainly helped develop Bran's gift. It is possible that same thing could happen with Jon. But no amount of crypt dreams are going to teach him how to control and use his warg gift. I think that is what Borroq will help Jon with. It will be interesting how Jon finds out about his actually parentage, whatever it actually is. Unless, GRRM is enough of dick to never let Jon understand the truth.  We might know but Jon never will, and that would suck for Jon!

23 minutes ago, DarkSister1001 said:

IIRC Ned was the only one to describe the "wolf blood" and it seemed to me he was using it to highlight their recklessness.  Sansa is anything but reckless (now) but I could definitely see something happening.  There's a good case made about her snow WF that seems to point to wolf dreams. 

Ned did describe the "wolf blood" in his siblings, Brandon and Lyanna, but never addressed it in himself or Benjen. Hard to say what he meant the wolf blood did to them, just that it lead them to an early grave. Well, Ned had a pretty early grave, too. Except he actually isn't buried. I just think Ned has those tendencies himself, but he was raised differently than his siblings. Instead of being raised in the wild north he was raised in the ultra proper Vale by Jon Arryn. In aGoT, Ned makes a comment about taming Robert.

Quote

He was no Jon Arryn, to curb the wildness of his king and teach him wisdom. Robert would do what he pleased, as he always had, and nothing Ned could say or do would change that.  Eddard II-aGoT

I think this has a double meaning. Stating that Jon was never able to really curb Robert's behaviors, but he might have been about to curb Ned's inherent wildness. I am really reading between the lines, I know, but ... Ned has a temper. He scared Catelyn so bad at one point, she never asked about Jon Snow's mother again. Ned has moments were "his fury was on him". Ned has had moments were he has blacked out, maybe with grief, but it could have been anger. Anyway, I think Ned felt like his wolfsblood was controlled, and he probably didn't recognize it in himself anyway. We always see those behaviors in our self least and last!

As for Sansa's wolfsblood, I think it is there, but it's more quiet that Arya's. I think when Sansa was contemplating pushing Joffrey off the wall, after he took her to look at Ned's head on the battlements, her wolfs blood was flaring. I think it was only the Hound that kept her from trying to shove Joff. Also, Sansa has a bit of a sass mouth when it comes to Joff, even when she should not, and I see that in both Arya and Jon. They don't hold their tongue all of the time when they should. Of course, I like that smart ass behavior in them, so ...

As for Sansa and her snow castle in the Eyrie, I have read that scene numerous times. At first I believed it would be her that would rebuild Winterfell, but now I am not so sure. Certainly, if she dreams of Winterfell, it makes sense, because Lady is buried there, and so part of Sansa will always be at Winterfell.

43 minutes ago, DarkSister1001 said:

Their auburn hair and being "kissed by fire" always gave me pause too.  Do you remember if Jon ever thinks of his siblings as being "KBF" after learning the term from Ygritte?

No, I don't think so, at least not off the top of my head. It is certainly interesting that Ygritte is a red head, as well as a large portion of his family, but he does not seem to give it much thought. He thinks of snow flakes melting in Robb's hair, but never about that hair being red or kissed by fire. The only person whose hair he thinks of in those terms in Ygritte and Melisandre, and he states there is a difference between the two.