The Bat and the Wolf?

[a black swan]

1 hour ago, DarkSister1001 said:

Letting my lack of caffeine get the best of me but I'm playing around with Worm=Arya, Bird=Sansa.  Bird eats worm. 

 ignoring the fact that Arya has loads of bird mottifs in her chapters related to her? Reducing her to a "worm" parrallel. 

[DarkSister1001]

2 minutes ago, DutchArya said:

 ignoring the fact that Arya has loads of bird mottifs in her chapters related to her? Reducing her to a "worm" parrallel. 

Like I said, just playing around with it. 

[DarkSister1001]

35 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

I'll have to look at that Winged Wolf Bran re-read project.

There's oodles of good stuff in there.   

[a black swan]

38 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

@DarkSister1001 Bird eats worm - I like it! But I can tell you from my worm research that Arya eats a lot of worms, and no-one else does, I think.

So Arya is a worm-eating bird, and therefore a winged wolf, and Sansa is a bird and a winged wolf, and Bran is a raven and a winged wolf.

Beautiful.  I'll have to look at that Winged Wolf Bran re-read project.

Arya's link to a winged wolf doesn't come from worm eating if you want to use that parrallel. 

I wish I could change into a wolf and grow wings and fly away. - (Arya, A Storm of Swords)

 

Arya also wishes for a "flaming sword" which just so happen to be what Dany's dragons are called. We'll see where that goes. 

 

 

[hiemal]

Speaking of wolves out of their element, I believe the spotted whales off of Lonely Light that the Farwynds are rumored to warg are known as the wolves of the sea.

[Springwatch]

16 minutes ago, DutchArya said:

Arya's link to a winged wolf doesn't come from worm eating if you want to use that parrallel. 

I wish I could change into a wolf and grow wings and fly away. - (Arya, A Storm of Swords)

 

Arya also wishes for a "flaming sword" which just so happen to be what Dany's dragons are called. We'll see where that goes. 

 

 

Oh, excellent - I didn't know these.

But you're mistaken thinking worms are being used to denigrate Arya.  It's the very reverse - I proposed that worms represent dragons (which they do - sometimes). Think of this: Lommy calls Arya 'worm breath'. See? If it's more than tinfoil, the implications are staggering.

[DarkSister1001]

1 hour ago, hiemal said:

Speaking of wolves out of their element, I believe the spotted whales off of Lonely Light that the Farwynds are rumored to warg are known as the wolves of the sea.

Quite right.  That House is also rumored to have "The Gift". 

[a black swan]

2 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Oh, excellent - I didn't know these.

But you're mistaken thinking worms are being used to denigrate Arya.  It's the very reverse - I proposed that worms represent dragons (which they do - sometimes). Think of this: Lommy calls Arya 'worm breath'. See? If it's more than tinfoil, the implications are staggering.

Oh no, I didn't get that vibe from you at all. Just @DarkSister1001 comment was a bit ? But like she said, lack of caffeine so 

That was just one reference to wings and Arya. In another chapter she wishes for wings again, thinking she could fly all the way back to Winterfell. 

If I had wings I could fly back to Winterfell and see for myself. And if it was true, I’d just fly away, fly up past the moon and the shining stars - Arya, ACoK

Your idea of worms representing dragons is very interesting in that context. Got me thinking... "Only the blood of the dragon"... What are your thoughts on the method George used for Arya's escape from the Red keep? Using the secret tunnels:

"And above it all, frowning down from Aegon’s high hill, was the Red Keep. […] Aegon the Conqueror had commanded it built. His son Maegor the Cruel had seen it completed. Afterward he had taken the heads of every stonemason, woodworker, and builder who had labored on it. Only the blood of the dragon would ever know the secrets of the fortress the Dragonlords had built, he vowed." - (Catelyn, A Game of Thrones)

Arya is more wolf and interesting links to dragons...

[Isobel Harper]

On 2/6/2017 at 9:45 AM, St Daga said:

This passage about Sansa telling Ned that she dreamed Bran was smiling was interesting. At first, I thought, she is just attempting to put a happy, sweet smelling cloak over the sadness of Bran's injury. But the more times I read it, the more times I think it is something else.

I am not sure it is a wolf dream, but it could be. After all, Lady's bones are probably buried at Winterfell in the lichyard by this time, and Sansa could have a sense of what is going on at home based on Lady's bones. I think those children and direwolves are connected, both in life and in death.

But I have begun to interpret this as perhaps Sansa has a some the "sight" that is separate from her wolf blood. It seems to be a bit like Bran and/or Rickon's green sight/dream abilities. I know Sansa is not sleeping under a weirwood tree, but it is the heart tree in a godswood and that has to be important. Did Bran send her that dream? Did she dream it from the roots network of the godswoods that are probably all connected in Westeros? Is it something she sensed on her own.

There's a theory around the forums lately that the Three Eyed Crow is not Bloodraven.  Most propose that it's future-Bran visiting himself in the past.  I have a hunch that's it's either Lady or Sansa.  A bit crackpot perhaps, but it's been proposed for a long time that Lady's death is directly linked to Bran's awakening in some way.  (Lady might have simply played the role of a sacrifice, trading one life for another, Bran's.)

Whatever role Lady's death plays, we are never given a Sansa POV in Winterfell.  And we are never given an example of Sansa dreaming until after Lady dies.  (I think we only have 1 Sansa POV before Lady dies.)  The first dream that Sansa has is of Lady.  It's ALMOST like a wolfdream, with Sansa dreaming of being with Lady, but the dream is fuzzy and Sansa can't quite reach Lady.  Lady is dead at this point.  If Sansa WAS warging Lady before she died, she would be the ONLY Stark to warg a direwolf before the red comet came, when magic reentered the world. 

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I wonder about that "red hair" of the Tully's might not be trying to tell us something. I wonder if there is something in the Tully blood, or the Whent blood from Catelyn's mother that gives those children a different kind of magic that the wolf/warg gift they received from their Stark blood.

There's something special about Sansa's shade of hair.  It's not just red, it's "copper." Sansa is only 1 of 3 people who have "copper" hair:  Melisandre and Addam Marbrand are the others.  Melisandre's hair is (imo) somehow achieved through artifice - dye or glamor.  Her hair is a fake color like Stannis' sword gives off "fake light."  Copper hair is important somehow.  Maybe a historical figure out person in prophecy had copper hair?  Yeah, red is associated with Rhllor, but Melisandre could have chosen any shade she wanted, and "copper" is not the shade closest to true red anyway; Copper is more orange.  Additionally, at this point in the story, only people with red hair (Dondarrion, Catelyn) are able to be revived by red priests.  

[winter daughter]

12 minutes ago, DutchArya said:

That was just one reference to wings and Arya. In another chapter she wishes for wings again, thinking she could fly all the way back to Winterfell. 

If I had wings I could fly back to Winterfell and see for myself. And if it was true, I’d just fly away, fly up past the moon and the shining stars - Arya, ACoK

 

Arya riding a dragon? interesting theory...but unlikely in my opinion.

Dany rides Drogon and we already have better candidates for the remaining dragons: Jon and Bran.

 

And Arya wishes to be a winged wolf after she hears the tale of Sansa changing to one:

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The northern girl. Winterfell’s daughter. We heard she killed the king with a spell, and afterward changed into a wolf with big leather wings like a bat, and flew out a tower window. But she left the dwarf behind and Cersei means to have his head.

and Sansa wishes for wings too:

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A falcon soared above the frozen waterfall, blue wings spread wide against the morning sky. Would that I had wings as well.

Does that mean Sansa is going to ride a dragon? I don't think so.

 

 

 

[Isobel Harper]

 I've been super busy at work, so I've kind of neglected the forums lately.  I meant to reply much sooner to some of y'all. 

I think I spoke too soon with regard to mouse(Arya) + bird(Sansa) = bat.  Yes, Sansa and Arya do both have bird symbolism attached to them.  (@Seams, cool parallel between Arya and Poe's raven.)  Sansa is called "little bird" and "little dove;" Arya once assumes the name Squab, which is the name for a baby dove.  Arya does call herself a mouse at Harrenhal, but Sansa's squeal had also been likened to a mouse by some.  Y'all have done a great job accumulating other examples of Arya being associated with birds up-thread. 

[Blue-Eyed Wolf]

16 minutes ago, Isobel Harper said:

Quote

I wonder about that "red hair" of the Tully's might not be trying to tell us something. I wonder if there is something in the Tully blood, or the Whent blood from Catelyn's mother that gives those children a different kind of magic that the wolf/warg gift they received from their Stark blood.

There's something special about Sansa's shade of hair.  It's not just red, it's "copper." Sansa is only 1 of 3 people who have "copper" hair:  Melisandre and Addam Marbrand are the others.  Melisandre's hair is (imo) somehow achieved through artifice - dye or glamor.  Her hair is a fake color like Stannis' sword gives off "fake light."  Copper hair is important somehow.  Maybe a historical figure out person in prophecy had copper hair?  Yeah, red is associated with Rhllor, but Melisandre could have chosen any shade she wanted, and "copper" is not the shade closest to true red anyway; Copper is more orange.  Additionally, at this point in the story, only people with red hair (Dondarrion, Catelyn) are able to be revived by red priests.  

Maybe this isn't the proper thread for it and maybe it's been pointed out elsewhere, but I've been thinking about what's special about Tully blood.  If the Ned and Cat's children are associated with winged wolves, doesn't that also make them winged fish or flying fish?  You could also say Lysa, Cat, and Edmure might be winged fish from their Whent (bat), maybe Lothston ancestry.  This also makes Sweetrobin a winged fish with the wings coming from both his mother and father, and that kid has tons of greenseer symbolism surrounding him.  

There might be a mirrored connection between sky and water animals if we think of the sky and sea as two blue spaces that they move through.  One above and one below.  Beg your pardon, but I haven't gotten this figured out in a better way and I'm super sick and hopped up on cold meds.  Old Nan describes the CoTF as "flying like birds" and "swimming like fish," so there's a water/air dichotomy within them.  Look at this from Dany I in ASOS:

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The narrow sea was often stormy, and Dany had crossed it half a hundred times as a girl, running from one Free City to the next half a step ahead of the Usurper's hired knives. She loved the sea. She liked the sharp salty smell of the air, and the vastness of horizons bounded only by a vault of azure sky above. It made her feel small, but free as well. She liked the dolphins that sometimes swam along beside Balerion, slicing through the waves like silvery spears, and the flying fish they glimpsed now and again. She even liked the sailors, with all their songs and stories. Once on a voyage to Braavos, as she'd watched the crew wrestle down a great green sail in a rising gale, she had even thought how fine it would be to be a sailor. But when she told her brother, Viserys had twisted her hair until she cried. "You are blood of the dragon," he had screamed at her. "A dragon, not some smelly fish."

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"I cannot see Drogon," said Ser Jorah Mormont as he joined her on the forecastle. "Is he lost again?"
"We are the ones who are lost, ser. Drogon has no taste for this wet creeping, no more than I do." Bolder than the other two, her black dragon had been the first to try his wings above the water, the first to flutter from ship to ship, the first to lose himself in a passing cloud . . . and the first to kill. The flying fish no sooner broke the surface of the water than they were enveloped in a lance of flame, snatched up, and swallowed. "How big will he grow?" Dany asked curiously. "Do you know?"
"In the Seven Kingdoms, there are tales of dragons who grew so huge that they could pluck giant krakens from the seas."

So we got in the first quote the dolphins slicing through the water below and dragons above.  The flying fish can move between both mediums of sky and water, but they can be consumed by a predator above and below.  There's silvery spears below the water and lances of flame above.  The sailors to me seem like they have greenseer or CotF symbolism.  Like the flying fish, they can navigate the surface between water and sky, so with their green sails they can "fly" on the wind and the ship moves through the water.  Again, not sure what it all means yet.  Just brain storming, but I think there's a link to fish and greenseeing as well.  

[a black swan]

41 minutes ago, winter daughter said:

Arya riding a dragon? interesting theory...but unlikely in my opinion.

Dany rides Drogon and we already have better candidates for the remaining dragons: Jon and Bran.

 

And Arya wishes to be a winged wolf after she hears the tale of Sansa changing to one:

and Sansa wishes for wings too:

Does that mean Sansa is going to ride a dragon? I don't think so.

 

 

 

1. I never said from that quote that she would ride a dragon.

2. Those aren't the only references with Arya + Dragons/Targs. 

The examples about wings and other bird references was to highlight the point that Arya has strong bird related mottifs.

3. I didn't know Sansa was a skin-changer too?  I dunno why you're making the comparison. But yeah, there are way more chances that Arya skin-changes a dragon than Sansa. Since you asked. 

Arya's links with Dragons however are also very strong. Exploring where that is going could be fun and worth doing. 

 

[DarkSister1001]

Just now, DutchArya said:

I didn't know Sansa was a skin-changer too?

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Category/C91/P120

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Are all the Stark children wargs/skin changers with their wolves?

To a greater or lesser degree, yes, but the amount of control varies widely.

 

[a black swan]

18 minutes ago, Isobel Harper said:

 I've been super busy at work, so I've kind of neglected the forums lately.  I meant to reply much sooner to some of y'all. 

I think I spoke too soon with regard to mouse(Arya) + bird(Sansa) = bat.  Yes, Sansa and Arya do both have bird symbolism attached to them.  (@Seams, cool parallel between Arya and Poe's raven.)  Sansa is called "little bird" and "little dove;" Arya once assumes the name Squab, which is the name for a baby dove.  Arya does call herself a mouse at Harrenhal, but Sansa's squeal had also been likened to a mouse by some.  Y'all have done a great job accumulating other examples of Arya being associated with birds up-thread. 

Indeed! 

Both in phrases (“Sorry, sweetling, we don’t speak your gibble-gabble.” Fuss and feathers, Mercy thought, they only know the Common Tongue. - Mercy) and description ("She was not far from the Gate as the crows flies, but for girls with feet instead of wings the way was longer." - Mercy), she has several links to birds that have gone unnoticed. 

Arya wanting to become a swan is quite literal. Seeing them so graceful ad completely unbothered by all the death and destruction surrounding them... a very interesting juxtaposition with Arya at that moment in her life. 

 

[a black swan]

10 minutes ago, DarkSister1001 said:

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Category/C91/P120

 

The question referred to the Stark kids' connection to their wolves as wargs. Technically they are all skin-changers with their wolves: from a lesser (Sansa) to a greater degree (Bran). That answer doesn't mean their ability will automatically move beyond their wolves. In Bran, Arya and most likely Jon skin-changing other animals has and will  likely happen. 

My greater point still stands. Unless you actually think Arya & Sansa have the same chance of skin-changing a dragon? Several ways/possibilities for Arya which would explain all her links to dragons/Targs. 

[The Fattest Leech]

2 hours ago, DutchArya said:

Oh no, I didn't get that vibe from you at all. Just @DarkSister1001 comment was a bit ? But like she said, lack of caffeine so 

That was just one reference to wings and Arya. In another chapter she wishes for wings again, thinking she could fly all the way back to Winterfell. 

If I had wings I could fly back to Winterfell and see for myself. And if it was true, I’d just fly away, fly up past the moon and the shining stars - Arya, ACoK

Your idea of worms representing dragons is very interesting in that context. Got me thinking... "Only the blood of the dragon"... What are your thoughts on the method George used for Arya's escape from the Red keep? Using the secret tunnels:

"And above it all, frowning down from Aegon’s high hill, was the Red Keep. […] Aegon the Conqueror had commanded it built. His son Maegor the Cruel had seen it completed. Afterward he had taken the heads of every stonemason, woodworker, and builder who had labored on it. Only the blood of the dragon would ever know the secrets of the fortress the Dragonlords had built, he vowed." - (Catelyn, A Game of Thrones)

Arya is more wolf and interesting links to dragons...

This probably hints more to Arya stumbling upon the first glimpse of other dragons being alive, meaning Aegon Blackfyre, because red or black, a dragon is a dragon. Arya gave us the first hint that Aegon is alive in some way. Arya stumbled upon something she wasn't supposed to see, which exposed the reader to the idea that George says was there all along. Jaime also comes across dragons talking to him while down in the KL tunnels as well. Arya is a wolf, not a dragon. Jaime could be a dragon depending on how George continues with it. 

[a black swan]

2 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

This probably hints more to Arya stumbling upon the first glimpse of other dragons being alive, meaning Aegon Blackfyre, because red or black, a dragon is a dragon. Arya gave us the first hint that Aegon is alive in some way. Arya stumbled upon something she wasn't supposed to see, which exposed the reader to the idea that George says was there all along. Jaime also comes across dragons talking to him while down in the KL tunnels as well. Arya is a wolf, not a dragon. Jaime could be a dragon depending on how George continues with it. 

Great point. But couldn't that also extend to Jon? He is part dragon, Targaryen blood runs through his veins. Her desire to see a dragon is constant. Whether it's Dany, her dragons (wanting a flaming sword), or a hidden dragon in fAegon or Jon... how that all happens will be very interesting to read. 

 

 

 

[hiemal]

1 hour ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

Maybe this isn't the proper thread for it and maybe it's been pointed out elsewhere, but I've been thinking about what's special about Tully blood.  If the Ned and Cat's children are associated with winged wolves, doesn't that also make them winged fish or flying fish?  You could also say Lysa, Cat, and Edmure might be winged fish from their Whent (bat), maybe Lothston ancestry.  This also makes Sweetrobin a winged fish with the wings coming from both his mother and father, and that kid has tons of greenseer symbolism surrounding him.  

 

I feel at this point I otter (sorry...) being up the idea of the river otter as a possible semi-acquatic sphinx, a wolf/fish hybrid (wolfish?) in lieu of Arya's wolf with a fish in its mouth. It is presaged in Arya's imagined transformation and swimming homewards, and if there any in Braavos they too could be considered cats of the canals.

[Blue-Eyed Wolf]

30 minutes ago, hiemal said:

I feel at this point I otter (sorry...) being up the idea of the river otter as a possible semi-acquatic sphinx, a wolf/fish hybrid (wolfish?) in lieu of Arya's wolf with a fish in its mouth.

Haha!  Yeah Arya does imagine herself as a "skinny pink otter" when she's dipping in "green" water.  I like the play on words "wolfish." Maybe a "catfish" as well Maybe @Seams might have some input there.  I think I've also seen another animal-mashup based on a general motif.  I think squirrels fit in the "flying mouse" catagory and they are a euphemism for CotF and Meera describes herself and father as being able to "fly" on leaves or through trees.