The Bat and the Wolf?

[hiemal]

32 minutes ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

Haha!  Yeah Arya does imagine herself as a "skinny pink otter" when she's dipping in "green" water.  I like the play on words "wolfish." Maybe a "catfish" as well Maybe @Seams might have some input there.  I think I've also seen another animal-mashup based on a general motif.  I think squirrels fit in the "flying mouse" catagory and they are a euphemism for CotF and Meera describes herself and father as being able to "fly" on leaves or through trees.

I think you are right. Well spotted!

[Isobel Harper]

2 hours ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

Maybe this isn't the proper thread for it and maybe it's been pointed out elsewhere, but I've been thinking about what's special about Tully blood.  If the Ned and Cat's children are associated with winged wolves, doesn't that also make them winged fish or flying fish?  You could also say Lysa, Cat, and Edmure might be winged fish from their Whent (bat), maybe Lothston ancestry.  This also makes Sweetrobin a winged fish with the wings coming from both his mother and father, and that kid has tons of greenseer symbolism surrounding him.  

There might be a mirrored connection between sky and water animals if we think of the sky and sea as two blue spaces that they move through.  One above and one below.  Beg your pardon, but I haven't gotten this figured out in a better way and I'm super sick and hopped up on cold meds.  Old Nan describes the CoTF as "flying like birds" and "swimming like fish," so there's a water/air dichotomy within them.  Look at this from Dany I in ASOS:

So we got in the first quote the dolphins slicing through the water below and dragons above.  The flying fish can move between both mediums of sky and water, but they can be consumed by a predator above and below.  There's silvery spears below the water and lances of flame above.  The sailors to me seem like they have greenseer or CotF symbolism.  Like the flying fish, they can navigate the surface between water and sky, so with their green sails they can "fly" on the wind and the ship moves through the water.  Again, not sure what it all means yet.  Just brain storming, but I think there's a link to fish and greenseeing as well.  

In those scenes, I always interpreted the flying fish as Velaryons, and the green sails belonging to Velaryons as well.  I'm looking at those scenes more literally than you are I think.  

I never thought of Tullys or Sweetrobin being "flying fish" though. That's pretty interesting.  SR wants to make people "fly" although they would really be falling.  Comets "fly" in the sky, although they too are also just falling.   SR sits on a weirwood throne in the Eyrie.  Perhaps that's a hint that a comet was sent via someone connected to the weirnet.  A sky god making things fly/fall to earth can be interpreted as a god sending comets or SR executing someone.  Same thing if you think about it.  Sending comets issues death and destruction.  

The Ironborn acknowledge two gods, the Storm God and the Drowned God.  And an old religion on the Sisters acknowledged a sky god and a Lady of the Waves.  (Storms are born when the latter two couple.)  The sky and water dichotomy is already present in the story.  

I'm just kinda spitballing here.  You're on to something here.  Maybe something representing a sea dragon?  Don't forget the green sea/green see wordplay. 

[Blue-Eyed Wolf]

14 minutes ago, Isobel Harper said:

In those scenes, I always interpreted the flying fish as Velaryons, and the green sails belonging to Velaryons as well.  I'm looking at those scenes more literally than you are I think.  

I forgot to point out they are also "singing," could be a CotF reference.  There a few more scenes with ships I want to look at exploring that idea.  Dany remarks how fine it would be to be a sailor.  Of course, she has her dragon dreams.  She then has greendreams like Jojen, but Jojen says he is not a greenseer.  It may have just literal meaning.  That passage came up when I did a search on flying fish.  Another thing occured to me that Drogon blasts them with fire.  Could that be kissed by fire?  Maybe there's something slightly different with red-haired flying fish than Arya and SR who do not have the red hair.  

Maybe the dolphins are kinda like wolves, hunting in packs.  Dany calls them silvery, but dolphins are usually gray.

Yes, and I too thought of the dichotomy of sea and sky with the Drowned God and Storm God.  

You are right about all those things surrounding SR.  Also the Moon Door is a weirwood door and the Eyrie is in the Mountains of the Moon at the Giant's Lance with the Bloody Gate below so there's more of a detailed moon / comet and death from above symbolism.  Bran in his dreams has to fly, if he doesn't he will die and I believe he says he sees the remains of those who failed to fly below him.  

We can also look at the inversion of death by falling (failure to fly) and death by drowning (failure to swim) like Patchface.  But maybe the secret here is that Patchface should be dead by all reason.  He was sole survivor I believe of the ship that sank in a storm, killing Stannis's parents.  Is this along the lines of how many people Bran sees that failed to fly if sailors and ships are a metaphor for greenseeing and navigating between the two worlds?  I'm going to look at other ship and sailor scenes with sea and sky and see if there might be anything else.

 

[Seams]

 

1 hour ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

Haha!  Yeah Arya does imagine herself as a "skinny pink otter" when she's dipping in "green" water.  I like the play on words "wolfish." Maybe a "catfish" as well Maybe @Seams might have some input there.  I think I've also seen another animal-mashup based on a general motif.  I think squirrels fit in the "flying mouse" catagory and they are a euphemism for CotF and Meera describes herself and father as being able to "fly" on leaves or through trees.

 

4 minutes ago, Isobel Harper said:

. . . You're on to something here.  Maybe something representing a sea dragon?  Don't forget the green sea/green see wordplay. 

Funny you should mention otters and a sea dragon.

If you search on the word "otter," there are four other mentions after the Arya excerpt, and all are Ironborn-related: a innkeeper's name and a description of the ideal kingdom, rich in natural resources, that Asha would like to rule:

"You are clinging to Sea Dragon Point the way a drowning man clings to a bit of wreckage. What does Sea Dragon have that anyone could ever want? There are no mines, no gold, no silver, not even tin or iron. The land is too wet for wheat or corn."

I do not plan on planting wheat or corn. "What's there? I'll tell you. Two long coastlines, a hundred hidden coves, otters in the lakes, salmon in the rivers, clams along the shore, colonies of seals offshore, tall pines for building ships" (ADwD, The Wayward Bride).

 

So the otter is discussed in the context of an inn, the sea, and the crowning of a queen. Asha also follows up the cited passage with mention of her uncle Aeron.

In a couple of other threads, I tried to come up with patterns of crowning/drowning and reenactments of Torrhen Stark bending the knee for Aegon the Conqueror. I found a scene with Theon bending his knee in front of an old inn for Aeron, who "baptizes" him with seawater - a symbolic drowning/crowning. I think Aeron anointed Theon as the next king of the Ironborn when no one else was looking. Theon is unhappy about getting his fancy clothes wet, but he thinks submitting to the ritual will be worthwhile if his uncle can help him get a crown.

In Arya's otter scene at the Gods Eye, she kneels by the lake and anoints her own head with water by plunging her face into the lake:

"The green water was warm as tears, but there was no salt in it. It tasted of summer and mud and growing things . . . She wished she could take off her clothes and swim, gliding through the warm water like an skinny pink otter. Maybe she could swim all the way to Winterfell" (ACoK, Arya IV).

Arya is still with Yoren's wagon train, and they specifically mention that there are no boats and that they cannot build boats for themselves - until Gendry points out that anyone can build a raft. (Lommy Greenhands and Gendry/Green dye are a symbolic pair, I believe, and probably represent the legacy of Garth Greenhands, so their greenness is a good match for the lush landscape Asha envisions.) We know that Asha pretends to be married to a boat builder at one point.

Arya's group also discuss whether they can stay overnight in a nearby abandoned inn.

Arya's idea of swimming to Winterfell through the water puts me in mind of Osha, who emerged from a spring at Winterfell and told Bran that it might not have a bottom. At one point, Theon notes that Asha and Osha sound alike, so there's another connection between the two arcs.

But what does all this have to do with otters? I'm not sure. Except: Jeyne Poole. Ah. Poole. Maybe that's relevant.

Theon will cut fArya/Jeyne's clothes off after she is married next to the spring in the Winterfell gods wood. Is that like Arya's image of taking off her clothes and becoming a skinny pink otter?

Then Jeyne will be naked under a pile of furs. Asha's remark implies that fur-trapping is the reason she would want otters in her ideal realm, (although she also jokes that otters would be easier to rule than men would be).

Jeyne is a tortured prisoner as is Theon, and that torture motif will

have an echo in Aeron's story

in the next book. I was surprised to note the word "trickle" in the passage from Arya's POV - I assume this is an allusion to The Tickler. Interesting that she finds the sensation so pleasant and welcome.

I don't know why GRRM specifically chose an otter for this link between Asha and Arya (and Jeyne Poole). If he wanted to use fish as the symbol, I think he would have done that directly. I think this does have something to do with freshwater vs. seawater. And with skins/furs. And with going home. More insight and analysis - or intuition - is needed.

If it didn't lack all other context and connection, my first thought would be to look for a wordplay link between "otter" and "Others." But nothing about that fits, as far as I can tell. (Except maybe the sable fur that Ser Waymar wears when the Others kill him in the first prologue.) My second thought would be that "otter" might be wordplay on "tore" which would bring us back to Torrhen Stark and to the verb "tear" that goes with the noun "tear." Arya does mention that the water is like tears. 

[a black swan]

39 minutes ago, Seams said:

 

 

Funny you should mention otters and a sea dragon.

If you search on the word "otter," there are four other mentions after the Arya excerpt, and all are Ironborn-related: a innkeeper's name and a description of the ideal kingdom, rich in natural resources, that Asha would like to rule:

"You are clinging to Sea Dragon Point the way a drowning man clings to a bit of wreckage. What does Sea Dragon have that anyone could ever want? There are no mines, no gold, no silver, not even tin or iron. The land is too wet for wheat or corn."

I do not plan on planting wheat or corn. "What's there? I'll tell you. Two long coastlines, a hundred hidden coves, otters in the lakes, salmon in the rivers, clams along the shore, colonies of seals offshore, tall pines for building ships" (ADwD, The Wayward Bride).

 

So the otter is discussed in the context of an inn, the sea, and the crowning of a queen. Asha also follows up the cited passage with mention of her uncle Aeron.

In a couple of other threads, I tried to come up with patterns of crowning/drowning and reenactments of Torrhen Stark bending the knee for Aegon the Conqueror. I found a scene with Theon bending his knee in front of an old inn for Aeron, who "baptizes" him with seawater - a symbolic drowning/crowning. I think Aeron anointed Theon as the next king of the Ironborn when no one else was looking. Theon is unhappy about getting his fancy clothes wet, but he thinks submitting to the ritual will be worthwhile if his uncle can help him get a crown.

In Arya's otter scene at the Gods Eye, she kneels by the lake and anoints her own head with water by plunging her face into the lake:

"The green water was warm as tears, but there was no salt in it. It tasted of summer and mud and growing things . . . She wished she could take off her clothes and swim, gliding through the warm water like an skinny pink otter. Maybe she could swim all the way to Winterfell" (ACoK, Arya IV).

Arya is still with Yoren's wagon train, and they specifically mention that there are no boats and that they cannot build boats for themselves - until Gendry points out that anyone can build a raft. (Lommy Greenhands and Gendry/Green dye are a symbolic pair, I believe, and probably represent the legacy of Garth Greenhands, so their greenness is a good match for the lush landscape Asha envisions.) We know that Asha pretends to be married to a boat builder at one point.

Arya's group also discuss whether they can stay overnight in a nearby abandoned inn.

Arya's idea of swimming to Winterfell through the water puts me in mind of Osha, who emerged from a spring at Winterfell and told Bran that it might not have a bottom. At one point, Theon notes that Asha and Osha sound alike, so there's another connection between the two arcs.

But what does all this have to do with otters? I'm not sure. Except: Jeyne Poole. Ah. Poole. Maybe that's relevant.

Theon will cut fArya/Jeyne's clothes off after she is married next to the spring in the Winterfell gods wood. Is that like Arya's image of taking off her clothes and becoming a skinny pink otter?

Then Jeyne will be naked under a pile of furs. Asha's remark implies that fur-trapping is the reason she would want otters in her ideal realm, (although she also jokes that otters would be easier to rule than men would be).

Jeyne is a tortured prisoner as is Theon, and that torture motif will

  Reveal hidden contents

have an echo in Aeron's story

in the next book. I was surprised to note the word "trickle" in the passage from Arya's POV - I assume this is an allusion to The Tickler. Interesting that she finds the sensation so pleasant and welcome.

I don't know why GRRM specifically chose an otter for this link between Asha and Arya (and Jeyne Poole). If he wanted to use fish as the symbol, I think he would have done that directly. I think this does have something to do with freshwater vs. seawater. And with skins/furs. And with going home. More insight and analysis - or intuition - is needed.

If it didn't lack all other context and connection, my first thought would be to look for a wordplay link between "otter" and "Others." But nothing about that fits, as far as I can tell. (Except maybe the sable fur that Ser Waymar wears when the Others kill him in the first prologue.) My second thought would be that "otter" might be wordplay on "tore" which would bring us back to Torrhen Stark and to the verb "tear" that goes with the noun "tear." Arya does mention that the water is like tears. 

That is some great insight!

Is there any significance to Arya both wanting to swim or fly back to Winterfell?

The freshwater v saltwater...

Arya has more connections to "salt". Even the Wall is made of salty seawater:

Hodor ducked, but not low enough. The door's upper lip brushed softly against the top of Bran's head, and a drop of water fell on him and ran slowly down his nose. It was strangely warm, and salty as a tear - Bran, ASOS

 

Another bird connection with Arya, crows often make an appearance in her chapters and here she is wanting to become a crow:

If I was a crow I could fly down and peck off his stupid fat pouty lips. - Arya, ACoK

She thinks this of Joffery while collecting fresh water for Roose Bolton.  

[winter daughter]

11 hours ago, DutchArya said:

1. I never said from that quote that she would ride a dragon.

2. Those aren't the only references with Arya + Dragons/Targs. 

The examples about wings and other bird references was to highlight the point that Arya has strong bird related mottifs.

3. I didn't know Sansa was a skin-changer too?  I dunno why you're making the comparison. But yeah, there are way more chances that Arya skin-changes a dragon than Sansa. Since you asked. 

Arya's links with Dragons however are also very strong. Exploring where that is going could be fun and worth doing. 

 

1. You used it to support your theory.

2. I'd like to read about them.

3. She has the blood. Lady's death hasn't change that.

(Edit:I made a comparison to say bird related motifs and some wishes for wings do not hint at dragon riding.)

As I said before your theory is interesting. but we have Jon(a Targ& a skinchanger) and Bran(a way more powerful warg/skinchanger) as other candidates and I think compare to them Arya's chance is slim. And I agree, exploring these theories is fun.

 

 

 

[Isobel Harper]

9 hours ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

I forgot to point out they are also "singing," could be a CotF reference.  There a few more scenes with ships I want to look at exploring that idea.  Dany remarks how fine it would be to be a sailor.  Of course, she has her dragon dreams.  She then has greendreams like Jojen, but Jojen says he is not a greenseer.  It may have just literal meaning.  That passage came up when I did a search on flying fish.  Another thing occured to me that Drogon blasts them with fire.  Could that be kissed by fire?  Maybe there's something slightly different with red-haired flying fish than Arya and SR who do not have the red hair.  

 

I don't recall anything about singing.   Could you reference it?  And what's this about Daenerys' dreams? 

Scenes can have both literal and symbolic meaning to them.  One way of interpreting a scene does not necessarily negate another. 

I think all red-haired people are somehow special to Rhllor, not just red-haired people from a certain house. I'm still curious about Sansa's copper hair though.  I think that shade is special with regard to Harrenhal.  Side note: Addam Marbrand is the third example of someone with copper hair.  If copper hair does hint at some kind of genetic connection to Harrenhal, he's got it.  I personally think he's got some Lothston/Whent blood via the maternal line as well.  Tyrek Lannister's mother was a Marbrand, and I do wonder if Tyrek went missing during the riot due to his (potential) heritage. 

9 hours ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

 

Maybe the dolphins are kinda like wolves, hunting in packs.  Dany calls them silvery, but dolphins are usually gray.

 

I know LmL dissected that scene in one of his podcasts.  He concluded that the dolphins represented comets or pieces of moon rock, I don't recall.  A scene can have multiple meanings though.  Aren't the grey Stark wolves also sometimes described as silver?  

 

9 hours ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

 

We can also look at the inversion of death by falling (failure to fly) and death by drowning (failure to swim) like Patchface.  But maybe the secret here is that Patchface should be dead by all reason.  He was sole survivor I believe of the ship that sank in a storm, killing Stannis's parents.  Is this along the lines of how many people Bran sees that failed to fly if sailors and ships are a metaphor for greenseeing and navigating between the two worlds?  I'm going to look at other ship and sailor scenes with sea and sky and see if there might be anything else.

 

In one of his prophecies, PF says that men "fall up" didn't he?  Falling up (failing to fly in the sea) is what happens to people who drown.  They float to the top or wash up on the shore.  Dolphins aren't fish but mammals.  Dolphins' ancestors were land mammals that returned to the sea.  THEY can "fly" in the ocean, and even above it in a sense.  And when pods** of dolphins jump above the sea, they aren't just playing, they are looking at things above the water.  I believe it's called "spying" or  "something-spying."

I've mentioned before (you may have read it) that Valyrians are sort of the "Starks of the sea."  Seahorses carried dead sailors to the Underworld in European mythology.  And as the "Lord of the Tides" they control the ebb and flow of life and death.  The background in House Velaryon's sigil is SEA GREEN. 

There's sooo many parallels between land and sea "greensight" and animal bonding that I think it warrants its own thread. 

  (**I wonder if pods can be seen as seeds.  A pod is also a type of seed.  Bran gives corn (seeds) to ravens, and the Three Eyed Crow asks for corn.  And people of Valyrian descent who have the potential to ride dragons are called dragonSEEDS.  You propose that a pod of dolphins represent a pack of wolves.  The direwolves' presence amongst the Stark children "plant the seed" of their ability to warg.  And the Farwynds supposedly can warg whales, who also travel in pods.)

[Seams]

26 minutes ago, Isobel Harper said:

  (**I wonder if pods can be seen as seeds.  A pod is also a type of seed.  Bran gives corn (seeds) to ravens, and the Three Eyed Crow asks for corn.  And people of Valyrian descent who have the potential to ride dragons are called dragonSEEDS.  You propose that a pod of dolphins represent a pack of wolves.  The direwolves' presence amongst the Stark children "plant the seed" of their ability to warg.  And the Farwynds supposedly can warg whales, who also travel in pods.)

This is excellent! I hadn't thought to look at pod as part of the "seed is strong" hint. The seed / pit connection was explored a bit on the Puns and Wordplay thread - bear pits, dragon pits, fighting pits as well as fruit that has seeds vs. fruit that has pits.

But the collective nouns for animal groups opens up a whole new area of exploration! Of course Jon would be stabbed by his Night's Watch brothers - what else would you expect from a Murder of Crows? Getting back to the origin of this thread, I just looked up the collective noun for bats: either colony or cloud is used. Maybe that explains Sansa's vision of two clouds shaped like castles that merge into a single castle. A group of otters can be a "Romp, Bevy, Family, or Raft." Interesting that Arya wants to be an otter and Gendry wants to build a raft on the same page.

This also ties in with those otter passages linking Asha and Arya (cited in my previous post). Asha responds to her companion by underscoring the "We do not sow" words of the Ironborn - she does not plan on planting wheat or corn. But then she lists groups of animals - otters, salmon, clams, seals. A group of salmon is called a run. A group of clams is called a bed. A group of seals is called a "Pod, Bob, Harem, Herd, or Rookery." Rookery would take us back to crows - apparently that's not the collective name for crows, but a place where crows are born is called a rookery. (Hmm. Do we know any crows who might have been born on Sea Dragon Point?) Are we being told that Asha yearns for family, run, bed and herd? Or some other combination of the possibilities? She doesn't seem like a homebody, in her thoughts or her actions, so maybe romp, run, bed and harem would be more accurate - she has a lot of lovers and doesn't seem interested in settling down.

By contrast, Arya likes the taste of "growing things" that she picks up from the water. She's all about otters and the family and raft symbolism, I bet. The anti-Asha.

Here's a fabulous collective noun: A group of ravens is called an "Unkindness" or a "Storytelling." How cool is that in the context of ASOIAF?

Perhaps not on this thread, but now we also need to think about Podrick Payne and his pod symbolism . . .

Very nice catch, IH! Lots of new insights could come from this.

[St Daga]

19 hours ago, Springwatch said:

But you're mistaken thinking worms are being used to denigrate Arya.  It's the very reverse - I proposed that worms represent dragons (which they do - sometimes). Think of this: Lommy calls Arya 'worm breath'. See? If it's more than tinfoil, the implications are staggering.

Worms = wyrms = dragons, I can see the possibility.

22 hours ago, DarkSister1001 said:

On 2/10/2017 at 8:34 AM, St Daga said:

So I searched worm in the five ASOIAF novels, I found 133 hits! So worm is well used. And more that I could look at at 3am!

LOL, I had the same issue.  My brain turned to mush. 

It took me days to try to think about it again. This discussion as produced some interesting ideas to think on.

16 hours ago, DutchArya said:

Your idea of worms representing dragons is very interesting in that context. Got me thinking... "Only the blood of the dragon"... What are your thoughts on the method George used for Arya's escape from the Red keep? Using the secret tunnels:

Never really thought of Arya as representing someone as a dragon, although Dragon's do show up in her story. They show up in a lot of peoples stories because the Targaryens and their dragons changed things in Westeros for every person who lives there. But Arya does know the secrets of some tunnels beneath the Red Keep, as so Varys and Illyrio.  Littlefinger does not seem aware of these tunnels, however, and sneaks Ned out of the castle by way of that creepy wall ladder, and that is how Dontos get's Sansa out as well. This makes me think there are some things that Littlefinger is not aware of.

15 hours ago, Isobel Harper said:

If Sansa WAS warging Lady before she died, she would be the ONLY Stark to warg a direwolf before the red comet came, when magic reentered the world. 

Jon had some type of connection with Ghost when he found the pup, which was chapter one. Who know's for sure what is going on with Robb and Rickon since we are never in their heads. I would imagine all the the kids had wolf dreams pretty early in the time frame after they got their pups, although would think none of them knew what was happening. I do think Sansa has something special about her that is different from her siblings, but I think it will develop because she no longer has Lady. I think the Starks all must have something that is individual in regards to their gift.

15 hours ago, Isobel Harper said:

There's something special about Sansa's shade of hair.  It's not just red, it's "copper." Sansa is only 1 of 3 people who have "copper" hair:  Melisandre and Addam Marbrand are the others.  Melisandre's hair is (imo) somehow achieved through artifice - dye or glamor.  Her hair is a fake color like Stannis' sword gives off "fake light."  Copper hair is important somehow.  Maybe a historical figure out person in prophecy had copper hair?  Yeah, red is associated with Rhllor, but Melisandre could have chosen any shade she wanted, and "copper" is not the shade closest to true red anyway; Copper is more orange.  Additionally, at this point in the story, only people with red hair (Dondarrion, Catelyn) are able to be revived by red priests.

Certainly GRRM likes the red heads, and it does seem like they are special in this story. This link with Sansa and Mel having the same shade of red is interesting. Copper is a color, but it is also a metal, a workable substance, It does not need to be extracted to be used, because it can be used in its native form.  It is soft and malleable, with high thermal conductivity, as well as electrical. Humans used it very early in development, and I wonder if this could be said about the people of Planetos, or at least Westeros. Does the copper shade of their hair draw back to a very "old" power. Bronze, which is a metal associated with the first men, is worked primarily from copper. 

As for the red hair red god connection, that is what we have been shown, but I am not sure if that is how the  connection really works. Honestly, we don't even know what power has revived Beric or Catelyn. We know that Thoros thinks it must be R'hllor, but there is no proof. 

15 hours ago, winter daughter said:

Arya riding a dragon? interesting theory...but unlikely in my opinion.

Dany rides Drogon and we already have better candidates for the remaining dragons: Jon and Bran.

 

And Arya wishes to be a winged wolf after she hears the tale of Sansa changing to one:

 

15 hours ago, winter daughter said:

Does that mean Sansa is going to ride a dragon? I don't think so.

I am not sure that the Stark kids are meant to ride dragons at all. Any of them! I wonder if they are meant to warg/skin change the dragons, to steal them from Dany!

15 hours ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

Old Nan describes the CoTF as "flying like birds" and "swimming like fish," so there's a water/air dichotomy within them.

I need to do just a reread of things Old Nan said. This connection is interesting, and does bring the Tully and Whent sigil's in play.

13 hours ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

 I think squirrels fit in the "flying mouse" catagory and they are a euphemism for CotF and Meera describes herself and father as being able to "fly" on leaves or through trees.

The squirrel motif shows up for Arya, and Bran, as well. Ned refers to Bran as a squirrel because of his climbing. 

As angry as he was, his father could not help but laugh. "You're not my son," he told Bran when they fetched him down, "you're a squirrel. So be it. If you must climb, then climb, but try not to let your mother see you." Bran II-aGoT.

Interesting that Ned is both worried about the danger but laughs about the situation to, and he allows that Bran cannot hide from his nature. And also, the try to hide that from your mother is interesting, because I think Cat did try to alter the nature of her children, while Ned was able to let it develop, such as hiring Syrio Forel to teach Arya, and letting Bran continue to climb.

 

 

[Isobel Harper]

15 minutes ago, Seams said:

This is excellent! I hadn't thought to look at pod as part of the "seed is strong" hint. The seed / pit connection was explored a bit on the Puns and Wordplay thread - bear pits, dragon pits, fighting pits as well as fruit that has seeds vs. fruit that has pits.

The blood spilled in the fighting pits in Meereen is said to be a sacrifice to and an appeasement for a god/gods.  (So is a sacrifice to a weirwood.)  People can be interpreted as "fruits" consumed by gods. 

 

44 minutes ago, Seams said:

But the collective nouns for animal groups opens up a whole new area of exploration! Of course Jon would be stabbed by his Night's Watch brothers - what else would you expect from a Murder of Crows? Getting back to the origin of this thread, I just looked up the collective noun for bats: either colony or cloud is used. Maybe that explains Sansa's vision of two clouds shaped like castles that merge into a single castle. A group of otters can be a "Romp, Bevy, Family, or Raft." Interesting that Arya wants to be an otter and Gendry wants to build a raft on the same page.

 

 

I've already started looking through lists of names for animals in the collective.  Lol!  "Murder of crows," "raft of otters" ... at least some of these collective names seem to have significance.  (Does Gendry want to make a "raft of otters" with Arya?)

Alys Rivers  (Aemond's paramour) could see visions in storm clouds, and saw Daemon Targaryen in a fire.  Perhaps Sansa has potential to see things in the flames as well? 

51 minutes ago, Seams said:

This also ties in with those otter passages linking Asha and Arya (cited in my previous post). Asha responds to her companion by underscoring the "We do not sow" words of the Ironborn - she does not plan on planting wheat or corn. But then she lists groups of animals - otters, salmon, clams, seals. A group of salmon is called a run. A group of clams is called a bed. A group of seals is called a "Pod, Bob, Harem, Herd, or Rookery." Rookery would take us back to crows - apparently that's not the collective name for crows, but a place where crows are born is called a rookery. (Hmm. Do we know any crows who might have been born on Sea Dragon Point?) Are we being told that Asha yearns for family, run, bed and herd? Or some other combination of the possibilities? She doesn't seem like a homebody, in her thoughts or her actions, so maybe romp, run, bed and harem would be more accurate - she has a lot of lovers and doesn't seem interested in settling down.

By contrast, Arya likes the taste of "growing things" that she picks up from the water. She's all about otters and the family and raft symbolism, I bet. The anti-Asha.

 

Asha and Arya certainly do have a lot in common.  You make a lot of good points here and in your previous post.  Re: the symbolic baptism in the lake near the inn, I wonder if this alludes to Arya becoming Queen of the North.  

Sea Dragon Point sounds like it's teaming with life and relatively untouched by man, so I don't think Asha differs from Arya with regard to "growing things"/water as life. 

Quote

She doesn't seem like a homebody, in her thoughts or her actions, so maybe romp, run, bed and harem would be more accurate - she has a lot of lovers and doesn't seem interested in settling down.

Yes! 

Quote

Perhaps not on this thread, but now we also need to think about Podrick Payne and his pod symbolism . . .

Pod is a parallel to Egg, playing the role of squire to Brienne, the Dunk parallel.  Both pods and eggs are a type of "seed," a vessel that harbors new life.  Egg's death was said to have birthed a "dragon," Rhaegar.  I'm sure we'll get some birth/rebirth symbolism related to Pod somehow in Winds or Spring. 

[a black swan]

1 hour ago, St Daga said:

Never really thought of Arya as representing someone as a dragon, although Dragon's do show up in her story. They show up in a lot of peoples stories because the Targaryens and their dragons changed things in Westeros for every person who lives there. But Arya does know the secrets of some tunnels beneath the Red Keep, as so Varys and Illyrio.  Littlefinger does not seem aware of these tunnels, however, and sneaks Ned out of the castle by way of that creepy wall ladder, and that is how Dontos get's Sansa out as well. This makes me think there are some things that Littlefinger is not aware of.

 

But unlike Varys/Illyrio, Arya found that passage by accident - like she was meant to find it. Just consider her nightmares about King's Landing and the fact that she goes down serpentine stairs to get to that room of monsters:

~*~

"When they had first come to King’s Landing, she used to have bad dreams about getting lost in the castle. Father said the Red Keep was smaller than Winterfell, but in her dreams it had been immense, an endless stone maze with walls that seemed to shift and change behind her. She would find herselfwandering down gloomy halls past faded tapestries, descending endlesscircular stairs, darting through courtyards or over bridges, her shouts echoing unanswered. In some of the rooms the red stone walls would seem to drip blood, and nowhere could she find a window. Sometimes she would hear her father’s voice, but always from a long way off, and no matter how hard she ran after it, it would grow fainter and fainter, until it faded to nothing andArya was alone in the dark.

It was very dark right now, she realized. She hugged her bare knees tight against her chest and shivered. She would wait quietly and count to ten thousand. By then it would be safe for her to come creeping back out and find her way home. - Arya Stark, AGoT

 

Jon has a similar dream of being lost in Winterfell and fearing what is down another set of serpentine stairs. 

The fact that Arya literally sits inside the skull of Dragon as a skin-changer herself. The implications are 

Arya feels like the dead dragons are alive and watching her. By her last encounter with them, she has no fear and thinks of them like old friends.  

The Old Gods speak to Arya in the Harrenhal godswood and call her a Daughter of the North ... yet she wishes for a flaming sword? 

“When your dragons were small they were a wonder. Grown, they are death and devastation, a flaming sword above the world.” - said about Dany’s dragons.

~*~

“I wish I had a flaming sword.” Arya could think of lots of people she’d like to set on fire.“ - said by Arya Stark of Winterfell. 

If Arya & Dany ever meet it would be so sweet to see them both speak in High Valyrian. Super endearing. 

 

44 minutes ago, Isobel Harper said:

 

Asha and Arya certainly do have a lot in common.  You make a lot of good points here and in your previous post.  Re: the symbolic baptism in the lake near the inn, I wonder if this alludes to Arya becoming Queen of the North.  

 

@Seams providing great analysis contrasting Asha/Arya so precisely. 

Arya becoming Queen of the North is alluded to in other places as well. Jon thinks of Arya as he looks at Alys Karstark and sees a frosty crown appear on her head. George is sneaky! 

Side note: was it ever conclusive on whether Arya was a wolf or cat when she dreamed about padding along the roof tops & canals in Braavos? 

 

 

 

 

[Isobel Harper]

4 minutes ago, DutchArya said:

But unlike Varys/Illyrio, Arya found that passage by accident - like she was meant to find it. Just consider her nightmares about King's Landing and the fact that she goes down serpentine stairs to get to that room of monsters:

When they had first come to King’s Landing, she used to have bad dreams about getting lost in the castle. Father said the Red Keep was smaller than Winterfell, but in her dreams it had been immense, an endless stone maze with walls that seemed to shift and change behind her. She would find herselfwandering down gloomy halls past faded tapestries, descending endlesscircular stairs, darting through courtyards or over bridges, her shouts echoing unanswered. In some of the rooms the red stone walls would seem to drip blood, and nowhere could she find a window. Sometimes she would hear her father’s voice, but always from a long way off, and no matter how hard she ran after it, it would grow fainter and fainter, until it faded to nothing andArya was alone in the dark.

It was very dark right now, she realized. She hugged her bare knees tight against her chest and shivered. She would wait quietly and count to ten thousand. By then it would be safe for her to come creeping back out and find her way home. - Arya Stark, AGoT

Jon has a similar dream of being lost in Winterfell and fearing what is down another set of serpentine stairs. 

The fact that Arya literally sits inside the skull of Dragon as a skin-changer herself. The implications are 

Arya feels like the dead dragons are alive and watching her. By her last encounter with them, she has no fear and thinks of them like old friends.  

The Old Gods speak to Arya in the Harrenhal godswood and call her a Daughter of the North ... yet she wishes for a flaming sword? 

“When your dragons were small they were a wonder. Grown, they are death and devastation, a flaming sword above the world.” - said about Dany’s dragons.

~*~

“I wish I had a flaming sword.” Arya could think of lots of people she’d like to set on fire.“ - said by Arya Stark of Winterfell. 

If Arya & Dany ever meet it would be so sweet to see them both speak in High Valyrian. Super endearing. 

 

@Seams providing great analysis contrasting Asha/Arya so precisely. 

Arya becoming Queen of the North is alluded to in other places as well. Jon thinks of Arya as he looks at Alys Karstark and sees a frosty crown appear on her head. George is sneaky! 

Side note: was it ever conclusive on whether Arya was a wolf or cat when she dreamed about padding along the roof tops & canals in Braavos?

Most certainly a cat. Probably not the first time either. Those nightmares that Arya has in Game are most likely her skinchanging Balerion the cat, the Rhaenys inside him looking for her father.  (Interesting, the dragon bones that Arya "skinchanges" are also Balerion's.)

Sansa has a near skinchanging experience involving Balerion too. 

 The noise receded as she moved deeper into the castle, never daring to look back for fear that Joffrey might be watching . . . or worse, following. The serpentine steps twisted ahead, striped by bars of flickering light from the narrow windows above. Sansa was panting by the time she reached the top. She ran down a shadowy colonnade and pressed herself against a wall to catch her breath. When something brushed against her leg, she almost jumped out of her skin, but it was only a cat, a ragged black tom with a chewed-off ear. The creature spit at her and leapt away.

By the time she reached the godswood, the noises had faded to a faint rattle of steel and a distant shouting. Sansa pulled her cloak tighter. The air was rich with the smells of earth and leaf. Lady would have liked this place, she thought. There was something wild about a godswood; even here, in the heart of the castle at the heart of the city, you could feel the old gods watching with a thousand unseen eyes.

Sansa almost "jumps out of her skin" when she touches Balerion.  (I see what you did there, GRRM.)

Any and every time a smell is described as "rich," it occurs while a Stark is warging their wolf.  And then, Sansa feels that Lady would have liked the godswood.  (Perhaps the Lady inside of her is telling her this.)

[St Daga]

11 minutes ago, DutchArya said:

an endless stone maze with walls that seemed to shift and change behind her. She would find herselfwandering down gloomy halls past faded tapestries, descending endlesscircular stairs, darting through courtyards or over bridges, her shouts echoing unanswered.

This is very similar to Jon's dreams. I don't think I realized until now that they are so alike. Circular stairs, calling out for people who don't answer, the walls (kings) seeming to move as she passes. Like Ned's thoughts of the crypts, as well. 

14 minutes ago, DutchArya said:

It was very dark right now, she realized. She hugged her bare knees tight against her chest and shivered. She would wait quietly and count to ten thousand. By then it would be safe for her to come creeping back out and find her way home. - Arya Stark, AGoT

This is like Arya's whole story line. She is in hiding since she left the Red Keep, few people know who or what she is or where she has been. She is not just counting to ten thousand, though, in real life (as a fictional character) she is learning things that will help her in her role, when the time comes for her to creep out and make her way home!

16 minutes ago, DutchArya said:

Arya feels like the dead dragons are alive and watching her. By her last encounter with them, she has no fear and thinks of them like old friends.  

Arya does not fear very much, and that is one of the reason's she is so awesome! She is young and adaptable enough that she encounters challenges; learns from them, confronts them at times, makes the best of them, and then stores all that knowledge away for later, when it will be needed!

[hiemal]

The more I think about it, the more I think Arya could be a "real sphinx", and thus the real riddle:

Who is a lady and no one, a wolf and a cat, a fish and a bird, a victim and a killer?

Alleras is a sphinx, and wonderfully reflective of the twin sphinxes, male and female, that guard the citadel's entrance but I think Arya fits the bill just as well.

Are there sphinxes that guard the entrance to the underworld in Westerosi myth, I wonder?

[St Daga]

17 minutes ago, Isobel Harper said:

Sansa almost "jumps out of her skin" when she touches Balerion.  (I see what you did there, GRRM.)

Awesome. I love this insight! 

17 minutes ago, Isobel Harper said:

By the time she reached the godswood, the noises had faded to a faint rattle of steel and a distant shouting. Sansa pulled her cloak tighter. The air was rich with the smells of earth and leaf. Lady would have liked this place, she thought. There was something wild about a godswood; even here, in the heart of the castle at the heart of the city, you could feel the old gods watching with a thousand unseen eyes.

Any and every time a smell is described as "rich," it occurs while a Stark is warging their wolf.  And then, Sansa feels that Lady would have liked the godswood.  (Perhaps the Lady inside of her is telling her this.)

Also, Lady is buried in the lichyard, so maybe the smells of earth and leaf are what are familiar to her, and Sansa is still aware of what Lady's bones are aware of? I certainly don't think that connection was severed by Lady's death, but how it was altered, I am not sure of, either!

 

[Isobel Harper]

1 hour ago, St Daga said:

 

Certainly GRRM likes the red heads, and it does seem like they are special in this story. This link with Sansa and Mel having the same shade of red is interesting. Copper is a color, but it is also a metal, a workable substance, It does not need to be extracted to be used, because it can be used in its native form.  It is soft and malleable, with high thermal conductivity, as well as electrical. Humans used it very early in development, and I wonder if this could be said about the people of Planetos, or at least Westeros. Does the copper shade of their hair draw back to a very "old" power. Bronze, which is a metal associated with the first men, is worked primarily from copper. 

 

People as metals is a theme that I've been meaning to explore further.  There's a discussion in the Puns and Wordplay thread at the moment analyzing "pig iron" representing people, namely Tyrion. 

Maester Aemon compares people to metals in Game:  "gold is a lord" and "steel is a knight" but two links don't make a chain just as two men don't make a kingdom.  Noble metals and base metals make a chain, just as noblemen and baseborn people (commoners) make a kingdom. 

Sansa represents copper.  When combined with tin, one has bronze, an important metal to the First Men.  Bronze was the strongest metal in Westeros before the Andals, and the metal still holds culture significance for First Men families.  Robb's crown is made from bronze, as is House Royce's armor. 

Adding "tin" somehow to Sansa makes her bronze, a sort of First Man Instrument.  Search "tin" in asearchoficeandfire.com and you'll see where I'm going with this. 

Tin is mentioned by maesters when describing importance of different metals and people in the realm, like Maester Aemon in Game and also by Pycelle (and Cressen?).  Fools also wear tin armor.  Renly's fool, Dontos, and Patchface wear tin.  Not only is tin a "foolish" metal, people also use the term tin in mockery.  Needle is mocked for "just being tin" in Clash.  

How this relates to Sansa?  Well, now she's hiding as Alayne, LF's BASEborn daughter.  @Seamsand I discussed at length on the Puns and Wordplay thread how Alysanne  is a near portmanteau of Sansa and Alayne.  We concluded that the skills that Sansa learns as Sansa and Alayne would make her a potential Good Queen Alysanne 2.0.  In addition to this, if Sansa represents copper and Alayne represents tin, then Sansa is turning into bronze!  Sansa+Alayne=Sansa evolving into something more powerful. 

Adding "tin" to her copper starts a little earlier than her transformation into Alayne though.  Sansa finding agency and doing the rescuing for herself is essential to her arch.  Dontos wears tin armor, but Sansa rescues HIM,  not the other way around.  

[Blue-Eyed Wolf]

1 hour ago, Isobel Harper said:

I don't recall anything about singing.   Could you reference it?  And what's this about Daenerys' dreams? 

Oops.  Sorry I wasn't clear.  "She even liked the sailors, with all their songs and stories" was the quote.  They weren't singing at that moment, but they do sing and tell stories.  What do sailors do in the story?  They travel from port to port and they bring news across the distances.  Can that be a metaphor for the weirwood net that a greenseer can use?  I was comparing Dany's dragon dreams to Jojen's greendreams.  Both are prophetic dreams, but Jojen says he is not a greenseer.  If there's a connection between greensee and greensea, another name for a sailor is a seaman or "seeman."  

2 hours ago, Isobel Harper said:

I know LmL dissected that scene in one of his podcasts.  He concluded that the dolphins represented comets or pieces of moon rock, I don't recall.  A scene can have multiple meanings though.  Aren't the grey Stark wolves also sometimes described as silver?

I do follow the podcast as much as I can and I do agree with the comets and moon meteors.  I'll have to go back and listen or read that part, but I think it may be multi-layered in meaning as well, which may add to our understanding of the comet and moon disaster.  I definitely see the moon rock in the silver spears and a comet in the fiery lance.  Bran describes Summer as "silver and smoke."  Greywind, Nymeria, and Lady are all described as grey-furred.    

2 hours ago, Isobel Harper said:

I think all red-haired people are somehow special to Rhllor, not just red-haired people from a certain house. I'm still curious about Sansa's copper hair though.  I think that shade is special with regard to Harrenhal.  Side note: Addam Marbrand is the third example of someone with copper hair.  If copper hair does hint at some kind of genetic connection to Harrenhal, he's got it.  I personally think he's got some Lothston/Whent blood via the maternal line as well.  Tyrek Lannister's mother was a Marbrand, and I do wonder if Tyrek went missing during the riot due to his (potential) heritage. 

I'd sure like to know what shade of red "Mad" Danelle Lothston's hair was.  She's definitely associated with sorcery (and with BR putting down the Blackfyre plot at Whitewalls) as with Mel.  Sansa was accused of sorcery in rumors after the PW.  I personally suspect the rumors of child murder surrounding Danelle was probably vicious slander for being an uppity woman, but being a sorceress was probably true. Nice catch on Addam Marbrand and Tyrek.  That's very interesting.

2 hours ago, Isobel Harper said:

In one of his prophecies, PF says that men "fall up" didn't he?  Falling up (failing to fly in the sea) is what happens to people who drown.  They float to the top or wash up on the shore.  Dolphins aren't fish but mammals.  Dolphins' ancestors were land mammals that returned to the sea.  THEY can "fly" in the ocean, and even above it in a sense.  And when pods** of dolphins jump above the sea, they aren't just playing, they are looking at things above the water.  I believe it's called "spying" or  "something-spying."

Yes he did!  Under the sea you "fall up."  We could be expanding on this theme of aquatic mammals being like wolves.  Another interesting thing is that toothed whales and dolphins also navigate and hunt by echolocation, as well as bats and even some cave-dwelling bird species like swiftlets.  Is echolocation also a metaphor for greenseeing?  I like that jumping above the surface to "spy."  I am wondering if this piercing between the mirrored worlds of sky and sea is particularly important -- for some reason, not sure yet.   

2 hours ago, Isobel Harper said:

I've mentioned before (you may have read it) that Valyrians are sort of the "Starks of the sea."  Seahorses carried dead sailors to the Underworld in European mythology.  And as the "Lord of the Tides" they control the ebb and flow of life and death.  The background in House Velaryon's sigil is SEA GREEN

That is very cool.  As we have been shown, things that die under the sea (as well as in the North) can be brought back to the world of the living.  Thinking about LmL's podcast again about the importance of dead greenseers in the Last Hero story, I'm thinking again about the possible parallelI here of dead sailors/seaman/seeman. 

And excellent catch on the "pod" and "seed" connection!  That's great thinking.  I would also throw in seaman/semen possible word play along the same lines planting seeds.  

@Seams  Awesome expansion on that idea!  Otters as rafts probably comes from that they sometimes float on their backs and hold on to another otter's paw to stick together as well as their young (pups!) ride on their mothers like a raft.  So cute when you consider that's a Arya/Gendry scene lol.   I like the connection to Jeyne Poole, f(Arya), naked under the furs.  Could be along the same theme of people wanting to be Starks and wear their pelts, but can't truly be.  So maybe there's your play with "otter" and "other" if "an otter" is "another" wolf-type animal.  

2 hours ago, St Daga said:

The squirrel motif shows up for Arya, and Bran, as well. Ned refers to Bran as a squirrel because of his climbing. 

Yes, absolutely!  Sansa, Arya, and Bran all have the "flying mouse" motif.  Arya has been called a squirrel and Bran sees Leaf I think and mistakes her for Arya.      

 

                 

[Isobel Harper]

1 hour ago, St Daga said:

Awesome. I love this insight! 

Also, Lady is buried in the lichyard, so maybe the smells of earth and leaf are what are familiar to her, and Sansa is still aware of what Lady's bones are aware of? I certainly don't think that connection was severed by Lady's death, but how it was altered, I am not sure of, either!

 

Interesting.  Perhaps she is aware of what Lady (still?) experiences?  I agree with you, the connection between Sansa and Lady is still there, albeit somewhat dormant.  

Sansa parallels Idunn in Norse mythology.  Idunn is kidnapped and hidden in a mountain keep by a giant.  She's later turned into a nut so that Loki (as a bird) can carry her back home.  "Alayne" has chestNUT hair.  (Side note: a "chest nut" is a seed in the chest or heart!)  Idunn turning from a goddess to a nut back to a goddess is a death and rebirth story that parallels to Persephone or Horus.  So, Sansa as "Alayne" is herself in some sort of dormant phase.  I mean, quite literally, she's set "Sansa on the shelf" for a while, letting her sleep while she exists as Alayne. 

I'm not sure exactly how Lady's death has truly altered Sansa, or how Sansa will "wake up" from Alayne or what will happen when she does.  We'll just have to wait for Winds to find out. 

Speaking of portmanteaus... does anyone else find it curious that every time someone calls Sansa "Lady Sansa," they are literally calling her HER plus her wolf? 

ETA: I looked up the etymology of lichyard.  I thought the lich- stemmed from the lichen present there.  Apparently it means "corpse."

Quote

lich (n.) also litch, lych, "body, corpse," a southern England dialectal survival of Old English lic"body, dead body, corpse," from Proto-Germanic *likow (source also of Old Frisian lik, Dutch lijk, Old High German lih, German Leiche"corpse, dead body," Old Norse lik, Danish lig, Swedish lik, Gothic leik), probably originally "form, shape," and identical with like (adj.). 

Also in Old English in an expanded form lichama (Middle English licham), with hama"shape, garment, covering." This is etymologically pleonastic, but the image perhaps is of the body as the garment of the soul. The compound has a cognate in Old High German lihhinamo. A litch-gate (also lych-gate) was a roofed gate to a churchyard under which a bier is placed to await the coming of the clergyman; lich-owl "screech-owl" was so called because it was supposed to forebode death. Old English also had licburg "cemetery,"lichhaemleas "incorporeal."

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?allowed_in_frame=0&search=lich

Basically, a lichyard is a "corpse yard," a graveyard.  I found the term "lichama" mentioned in the text interesting though.  "The image of the body as a garment for the soul."  Ned sends Lady's bones home, so that Cersei won't make a cloak (garment) from her fur, protecting Lady's (and Sansa's) soul from Cersei, or perhaps from ANYONE.  And by burying Lady at Winterfell, there will always be a part of Sansa that IS home.

[Blue-Eyed Wolf]

54 minutes ago, St Daga said:

Also, Lady is buried in the lichyard, so maybe the smells of earth and leaf are what are familiar to her, and Sansa is still aware of what Lady's bones are aware of? I certainly don't think that connection was severed by Lady's death, but how it was altered, I am not sure of, either!

Because Lady's bones are buried in Winterfell is important. Sansa will later say she feels "stronger within the walls of Winterfell" and bones are said to "remember," which is probably why they can be used in glamors or why an undead can retain some memory.  Cersei wanted Lady's pelt, but Ned denied her that.  The skin was still intact and may be symbollic of Sansa's skinchanging ability being still present, even if its dormant.  So maybe it's not really that altered so much that it needs a means of awakening.  In her isolation and imprisonment, she's been cut off from quite a bit. I think that's where her relationship with the Hound as a surrogate Lady comes in.  "A dog can smell a lie."  Smelling is an important metaphor in her arc for intuition and finding the truth.       

3 hours ago, St Daga said:

Copper is a color, but it is also a metal, a workable substance, It does not need to be extracted to be used, because it can be used in its native form.  It is soft and malleable, with high thermal conductivity, as well as electrical. Humans used it very early in development, and I wonder if this could be said about the people of Planetos, or at least Westeros. Does the copper shade of their hair draw back to a very "old" power. Bronze, which is a metal associated with the first men, is worked primarily from copper. 

  I do like this!  Good job!  

35 minutes ago, Isobel Harper said:

Tin is mentioned by maesters when describing importance of different metals and people in the realm, like Maester Aemon in Game and also by Pycelle (and Cressen?).  Fools also wear tin armor.  Renly's fool, Dontos, and Patchface wear tin.  Not only is tin a "foolish" metal, people also use the term tin in mockery.  Needle is mocked for "just being tin" in Clash.  

How this relates to Sansa?  Well, now she's hiding as Alayne, LF's BASEborn daughter.  @Seamsand I discussed at length on the Puns and Wordplay thread how Alysanne  is a near portmanteau of Sansa and Alayne.  We concluded that the skills that Sansa learns as Sansa and Alayne would make her a potential Good Queen Alysanne 2.0.  In addition to this, if Sansa represents copper and Alayne represents tin, then Sansa is turning into bronze!  Sansa+Alayne=Sansa evolving into something more powerful.

I really like this!  Sansa herself was regarded as a fool by many.  Fools in this story, though they may be mocked, tend to have knowledge and insight other people don't.  Being regarded as a fool can also help keep you safe if everyone underestimates you.           

[The Fattest Leech]

9 minutes ago, Isobel Harper said:

Interesting.  Perhaps she is aware of what Lady (still?) experiences?  I agree with you, the connection between Sansa and Lady is still there, albeit somewhat dormant.  

I am always curious what would happen when Sansa gets back to Winterfell (somehow, someday?) and she goes to visit Lady's bones, and we know that 'the bones remember'. I wonder if Sansa will pick something up storywise about her past or future? A little speculative, I know, but I think based on what we have learned about how things work in the story, Sansa could find something out about through her wolf's bones.

9 minutes ago, Isobel Harper said:

Sansa parallels Idunn in Norse mythology.  Idunn is kidnapped and hidden in a mountain keep by a giant.  She's later turned into a nut so that Loki (as a bird) can carry her back home.  "Alayne" has chestNUT hair.  (Side note: a "chest nut" is a seed in the chest or heart!)  Idunn turning from a goddess to a nut back to a goddess is a death and rebirth story that parallels to Persephone or Horus.  So, Sansa as "Alayne" is herself in some sort of dormant phase.  I mean, quite literally, she's set "Sansa on the shelf" for a while, letting her sleep while she exists as Alayne. 

Very much agreed on the Idunn inspiration. And the chest-nut is one I had not thought of yet. Nice.

No doubt Sansa is on the shelf for a bit, and since words are wind, I am anticipating a whole lot of wordy winds in TWOW and with that a lot of identity reveals, which in turn moves the story along nicely.

9 minutes ago, Isobel Harper said:

I'm not sure exactly how Lady's death has truly altered Sansa, or how Sansa will "wake up" from Alayne or what will happen when she does.  We'll just have to wait for Winds to find out. 

Speaking of portmanteaus... does anyone else find it curious that every time someone calls Sansa "Lady Sansa," they are literally calling her HER plus her wolf? 

Funny enough, I always kinda thought the same as well, even if in my own personal wishful thinking way. I am glad you pointed this out.