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The Bat and the Wolf?


Isobel Harper

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47 minutes ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

Oops.  Sorry I wasn't clear.  "She even liked the sailors, with all their songs and stories" was the quote.  They weren't singing at that moment, but they do sing and tell stories.  What do sailors do in the story?  They travel from port to port and they bring news across the distances.  Can that be a metaphor for the weirwood net that a greenseer can use?  I was comparing Dany's dragon dreams to Jojen's greendreams.  Both are prophetic dreams, but Jojen says he is not a greenseer.  If there's a connection between greensee and greensea, another name for a sailor is a seaman or "seeman."  

I do follow the podcast as much as I can and I do agree with the comets and moon meteors.  I'll have to go back and listen or read that part, but I think it may be multi-layered in meaning as well, which may add to our understanding of the comet and moon disaster.  I definitely see the moon rock in the silver spears and a comet in the fiery lance.  Bran describes Summer as "silver and smoke."  Greywind, Nymeria, and Lady are all described as grey-furred.    

I'd sure like to know what shade of red "Mad" Danelle Lothston's hair was.  She's definitely associated with sorcery (and with BR putting down the Blackfyre plot at Whitewalls) as with Mel.  Sansa was accused of sorcery in rumors after the PW.  I personally suspect the rumors of child murder surrounding Danelle was probably vicious slander for being an uppity woman, but being a sorceress was probably true. Nice catch on Addam Marbrand and Tyrek.  That's very interesting.

Yes he did!  Under the sea you "fall up."  We could be expanding on this theme of aquatic mammals being like wolves.  Another interesting thing is that toothed whales and dolphins also navigate and hunt by echolocation, as well as bats and even some cave-dwelling bird species like swiftlets.  Is echolocation also a metaphor for greenseeing?  I like that jumping above the surface to "spy."  I am wondering if this piercing between the mirrored worlds of sky and sea is particularly important -- for some reason, not sure yet.   

That is very cool.  As we have been shown, things that die under the sea (as well as in the North) can be brought back to the world of the living.  Thinking about LmL's podcast again about the importance of dead greenseers in the Last Hero story, I'm thinking again about the possible parallelI here of dead sailors/seaman/seeman. 

And excellent catch on the "pod" and "seed" connection!  That's great thinking.  I would also throw in seaman/semen possible word play along the same lines planting seeds.  

@Seams  Awesome expansion on that idea!  Otters as rafts probably comes from that they sometimes float on their backs and hold on to another otter's paw to stick together as well as their young (pups!) ride on their mothers like a raft.  So cute when you consider that's a Arya/Gendry scene lol. :wub:  I like the connection to Jeyne Poole, f(Arya), naked under the furs.  Could be along the same theme of people wanting to be Starks and wear their pelts, but can't truly be.  So maybe there's your play with "otter" and "other" if "an otter" is "another" wolf-type animal.  

Yes, absolutely!  Sansa, Arya, and Bran all have the "flying mouse" motif.  Arya has been called a squirrel and Bran sees Leaf I think and mistakes her for Arya.      

 

                 

RE: Danelle Lothston. 

I believe a lot of her "crimes" were slander.  Think of all she's accused of and compare it to Rohanne Webber and Daenerys.  Were/are they sorceresses too?  Or did/do they bathe in blood to stay young and beautiful?  ;)

Mad Danelle is a parallel to real life Elizabeth Bathory.  She committed similar crimes to what Mad Danelle had done...  supposedly.  Some historians think Elizabeth Bathory was innocent. Coersion and torture were used on some of the witnesses of Bathory's "crimes."  And it just so happened that executing Bathory relieved the crown of the 7 million mark debt that they owed her.  

If Danelle Lothston was an ally of BR, this alliance might have played a role in her execution.  Maekar and BR are enemies, and per AWoIaF, her execution took place during Maekar's reign. 

RE: echolocation

I hadn't considered that bats and dolphins use echolocation to travel.  Nice catch!  

RE: seamen/seemen/semen

I totally meant the lemon cakes/semen cloak as a joke, but every so often I'm tempted to apply it somehow.  Lol!  If LF's background on his sigil is seagreen, then Alayne should bear a "seamen cloak."  And, as Alayne she's a dormant chestnut "seed" of herself.  Lemon cakes can also form seamen lock; Sansa is locked away under "seagreen" Baelish. 

Or maybe I just have a dirty mind. :o

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1 hour ago, Isobel Harper said:

We concluded that the skills that Sansa learns as Sansa and Alayne would make her a potential Good Queen Alysanne 2.0.  In addition to this, if Sansa represents copper and Alayne represents tin, then Sansa is turning into bronze!  Sansa+Alayne=Sansa evolving into something more powerful. 

I like the idea that Sansa's time as Alayne has changed her, tempered her, into being a stronger weapon than she was before. It brings in the copper, tin and bronze idea beautifully. Sansa's time as Alayne the bastard I think really gave her a different perspective on life and people and made her a more thoughtful, less selfish type of person.

Not sure about the Good Queen Alysanne connection, however. I know that Alysanne and Jaehaerys are widely thought to be good, stable Targaryen rulers, but Alysaane seems to have hurt both the Starks and the Nights Watch when she took the New Gift from the Starks and gave it to the Watch. I think it did badly affect the Watch and eventually the Starks, and I am not sure she might not have known that could happen all along. It could also be an example of the best of intentions do not always work out well, I suppose. Unless Sansa is full of good intentions and deeds that continue to badly effect everyone around her.

31 minutes ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

Cersei wanted Lady's pelt, but Ned denied her that.  The skin was still intact and may be symbollic of Sansa's skinchanging ability being still present, even if its dormant.  So maybe it's not really that altered so much that it needs a means of awakening.

Yes. But what will cause that reawakening? Or is it slowly happening already? 

32 minutes ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

I really like this!  Sansa herself was regarded as a fool by many.  Fools in this story, though they may be mocked, tend to have knowledge and insight other people don't.  Being regarded as a fool can also help keep you safe if everyone underestimates you.    

True! The fool's of our story seem to have both great knowledge and they fly under the radar. And most importantly in this case, is that Littlefinger underestimates Sansa, and that is why I have hope that she is going to bring him down!

 

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58 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

I am always curious what would happen when Sansa gets back to Winterfell (somehow, someday?) and she goes to visit Lady's bones, and we know that 'the bones remember'. I wonder if Sansa will pick something up storywise about her past or future? A little speculative, I know, but I think based on what we have learned about how things work in the story, Sansa could find something out about through her wolf's bones.

 

25 minutes ago, St Daga said:

 

Yes. But what will cause that reawakening? Or is it slowly happening already? 

 

I think Sansa's warging "reawakening" will occur sooner rather than later.  Darry, where Lady was executed, is in closer proximity to the Vale than Winterfell is, so it's likely to occur there or near there.  Maybe she'll "rebond" with Lady's spirit in some way or gain another animal to skinchange.  I'm not sure yet.  That'll be something to wait for in Winds. 

59 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

 

Funny enough, I always kinda thought the same as well, even if in my own personal wishful thinking way. I am glad you pointed this out.

Great minds think alike.  :cheers:

27 minutes ago, St Daga said:

 

Not sure about the Good Queen Alysanne connection, however. I know that Alysanne and Jaehaerys are widely thought to be good, stable Targaryen rulers, but Alysaane seems to have hurt both the Starks and the Nights Watch when she took the New Gift from the Starks and gave it to the Watch. I think it did badly affect the Watch and eventually the Starks, and I am not sure she might not have known that could happen all along. It could also be an example of the best of intentions do not always work out well, I suppose. Unless Sansa is full of good intentions and deeds that continue to badly effect everyone around her.

Hmm, I didn't think about Alysanne's negative effect on the North...  Alysanne essentially coruled with her husband, and supported her granddaughter Rhaenys' claim to the throne.  I see Sansa somehow fulfilling feminist ideals in some way.  Qoherys (which very well could be the ancestor of Lothston and Whent) could be wordplay on "coheiress."  I'm super-excited about Sansa being coruler of Harrenhal with her SISTER not her husband.  But we shall see. 

Either way, I just don't see Sansa (or any Stark) ruling and causing detriment to the North, intentional or not.  Starks gaining power again would empower the North, if anything. 

41 minutes ago, St Daga said:

 

True! The fool's of our story seem to have both great knowledge and they fly under the radar. And most importantly in this case, is that Littlefinger underestimates Sansa, and that is why I have hope that she is going to bring him down!

 

Exactly! 

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54 minutes ago, Isobel Harper said:

 

RE: seamen/seemen/semen

I totally meant the lemon cakes/semen cloak as a joke, but every so often I'm tempted to apply it somehow.  Lol!  If LF's background on his sigil is seagreen, then Alayne should bear a "seamen cloak."  And, as Alayne she's a dormant chestnut "seed" of herself.  Lemon cakes can also form seamen lock; Sansa is locked away under "seagreen" Baelish. 

Or maybe I just have a dirty mind. :o

To add, a lock is a type of canal:

Lock (n): A gated enclosure in a canal which connects two bodies of water that have different water levels. When a ship has entered the lock and the gate closed, the water can be raised or lowered to float the ship to the next level.

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2 hours ago, Isobel Harper said:

Most certainly a cat. Probably not the first time either. Those nightmares that Arya has in Game are most likely her skinchanging Balerion the cat, the Rhaenys inside him looking for her father.  (Interesting, the dragon bones that Arya "skinchanges" are also Balerion's.)

Sansa has a near skinchanging experience involving Balerion too. . . .

In that otter excerpt involving Arya at the God's Eye, she and another of Yoren's recruits are supposed to be looking for boats (which I think are often symbolic eggs in the books, preparing people for rebirth). They don't find boats but they do find a litter of kittens with their mother. When I noticed this on this re-read, I thought it was very similar to Robb and Jon finding the direwolf pups in AGoT. I realize the Balerion "skinchanging" scenes precede the God's Eye scene, but I wonder whether the discovery of the litter of "cats" symbolizes Arya and Sansa now showing more characteristics of their mother's side of the family, with the cat as a personal symbol of Catelyn, not related to her father or husband's sigils?

1 hour ago, Isobel Harper said:

People as metals is a theme that I've been meaning to explore further.  There's a discussion in the Puns and Wordplay thread at the moment analyzing "pig iron" representing people, namely Tyrion. 

... Fools also wear tin armor.  Renly's fool, Dontos, and Patchface wear tin.  Not only is tin a "foolish" metal, people also use the term tin in mockery.  Needle is mocked for "just being tin" in Clash.  

How this relates to Sansa?  Well, now she's hiding as Alayne, LF's BASEborn daughter.  @Seamsand I discussed at length on the Puns and Wordplay thread how Alysanne  is a near portmanteau of Sansa and Alayne.  We concluded that the skills that Sansa learns as Sansa and Alayne would make her a potential Good Queen Alysanne 2.0.  In addition to this, if Sansa represents copper and Alayne represents tin, then Sansa is turning into bronze!  Sansa+Alayne=Sansa evolving into something more powerful. 

Adding "tin" to her copper starts a little earlier than her transformation into Alayne though.  Sansa finding agency and doing the rescuing for herself is essential to her arch.  Dontos wears tin armor, but Sansa rescues HIM,  not the other way around.  

This is terrific! So many home runs today for you, IH! Remember that Catelyn's last thought at the Red Wedding is, "Don't cut my hair. Ned loves my hair." Just as she has cut Jinglebell's throat. She wants her copper and Jinglebell's tin. (Are bells made of tin?) I had wondered why crones are often shown in the company of fools, and the idea of people as metals could explain it: women change from maiden or mother to crone by becoming alloyed with tin! And crones represent wisdom. So the people who hang out with fools are alloys and are wise; the mother, Catelyn, and the fool, Jinglebell, are united in death, creating Lady Stoneheart, the crone. Although her hair then turns grey, doesn't it?

Sansa doesn't unite with Ser Dontos in death, but she does let him kiss her once, I think. Maybe there is another kind of contact that results in her becoming an alloy. Doesn't Littlefinger give Ser Dontos some coins just before he has him killed? Maybe he is creating an alloy with the foolish tin at that moment.

I wonder whether "Alayne" is even supposed to evoke "alloy"? I had wondered that about Tyrion's fake name, "Yollo." Maybe Alayne and Yollo together (almost) make two alloys.

Cersei has contempt for fools, and compares people like the Stokeworth family and Maggy to fools. Perhaps this is GRRM telling us that Cersei wants to stay gold and not become an alloy. She is not wise. BUT! Tyrion tells Jaime (falsely) that Cersei may have been having an affair with Moonboy. This really bothers Jaime - is he thinking that she is no longer 24 karat Lannister gold?

I've also been noticing some of the people as metals references, probably stemming from the "people as weapons" notions I've tried to explore in the past. The Ironborn is an obvious example, with Asha even marrying an axe and having a dirk for a suckling babe. I'll try to keep better track from now on - there are others I can't recall at the moment.

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1 hour ago, Seams said:

In that otter excerpt involving Arya at the God's Eye, she and another of Yoren's recruits are supposed to be looking for boats (which I think are often symbolic eggs in the books, preparing people for rebirth). They don't find boats but they do find a litter of kittens with their mother. When I noticed this on this re-read, I thought it was very similar to Robb and Jon finding the direwolf pups in AGoT. I realize the Balerion "skinchanging" scenes precede the God's Eye scene, but I wonder whether the discovery of the litter of "cats" symbolizes Arya and Sansa now showing more characteristics of their mother's side of the family, with the cat as a personal symbol of Catelyn, not related to her father or husband's sigils?

I had forgotten about the kitten scene completely.  Yes, it could foreshadow Arya's future bonding experiences with cats, and perhaps a growing connection to Cat/cats in the future for both girls.  

 Though Sansa looks like her mother, she behaves more like her father.  And though Arya looks more like her father, she behaves more like her mother.  Brienne has the Lothston shield repainted, essentially wielding the same shield in a new form, essentially what "Alayne" and "no one" are.  Speaking of new names, compare the sound of Cat (ie Cat of the Canals) and Alayne with Catelyn.  "Cat Alayne" looks and sounds a lot like Catelyn.  There are a lot of good (better) threads out there that compare and contrast Sansa and Arya to Catelyn.

1 hour ago, Seams said:

Remember that Catelyn's last thought at the Red Wedding is, "Don't cut my hair. Ned loves my hair." Just as she has cut Jinglebell's throat. She wants her copper and Jinglebell's tin. (Are bells made of tin?) I had wondered why crones are often shown in the company of fools, and the idea of people as metals could explain it: women change from maiden or mother to crone by becoming alloyed with tin! And crones represent wisdom. So the people who hang out with fools are alloys and are wise; the mother, Catelyn, and the fool, Jinglebell, are united in death, creating Lady Stoneheart, the crone. Although her hair then turns grey, doesn't it?

 

I'm not familiar with the theme of cones associating themselves with fools.  Can you explain?  

Jinglebells isn't mentioned as wearing tin.  He wears bells on his head, but no tin.  PF wears bells on his antlered helm, which is made from tin though.  Jinglebells hair is grey (maybe that could be seen as tin?), and Catelyn's hair turns white. 

Renly's fool (in the one scene he is mentioned in) chases a dwarf around, hitting him with a bladder.  His tin armor is painted with gold; he's acting, pretending to be Jaime.  Well, Jaime IS a "fool where women (Cersei) is concerned."  Cersei's unfaithfulness essentially "makes a fool" out of Jaime for trusting her. 

1 hour ago, Seams said:

 

I wonder whether "Alayne" is even supposed to evoke "alloy"? I had wondered that about Tyrion's fake name, "Yollo." Maybe Alayne and Yollo together (almost) make two alloys.

Hmm, maybe. 

Well, gold (as a finished product, not the element) is essentially like bronze.  By itself, the element gold is extremely soft, and even brittle.  But add some "base metals" to it (like tin to copper to make bronze) and you have something strong.  Gold can't be used as a weapon, but it does have its advantages.  It takes hundreds of years for it to begin to tarnish.  Like Alayne, Tyrion is pretending to be a bastard - Hugor Hill.  Maybe he's turning into stronger gold? 

1 hour ago, Seams said:

 

I've also been noticing some of the people as metals references, probably stemming from the "people as weapons" notions I've tried to explore in the past. The Ironborn is an obvious example, with Asha even marrying an axe and having a dirk for a suckling babe. I'll try to keep better track from now on - there are others I can't recall at the moment.

If I ever get a chance to make a Metals as People thread, I'll be sure to tag you. 

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35 minutes ago, Isobel Harper said:

I believe a lot of her "crimes" were slander.  Think of all she's accused of and compare it to Rohanne Webber and Daenerys.  Were/are they sorceresses too?  Or did/do they bathe in blood to stay young and beautiful?

Rohanne and Daenerys may not be sorceresses.  Melissandre, definitely.  I think with Danelle and her association with BR, a sorcerer, that there was probably some truth to that.  She may have engaged in some kind of magical art, but it may have been grossly exaggerated to a slanderous degree to justify more mundane and political reasons for ousting her.  The Whents, who originally served the Lothstons, took over Harrenhal in return for their part in bringing House Lothston down.  That sounds like a betrayal of some kind to me.  I hope we get to know the whole story. 

49 minutes ago, Isobel Harper said:

I totally meant the lemon cakes/semen cloak as a joke, but every so often I'm tempted to apply it somehow.  Lol!  If LF's background on his sigil is seagreen, then Alayne should bear a "seamen cloak."  And, as Alayne she's a dormant chestnut "seed" of herself.  Lemon cakes can also form seamen lock; Sansa is locked away under "seagreen" Baelish

Maybe it's funny because it's true. lol  I think she was already wearing her own green cloak when LF tried to cloak her with his cloak.  Maybe you can call that a seaman/semen cloak since they were standing on a ship.  She did reject his offer of a pomegranate because she found the seeds too messy and chose a pear instead.  Lemons are associated with bitterness and disappointment, but they are also associated with the Virgin Mary and fidelity in love.  I love that chest nut = heart.  LF does ask Sansa to be Alayne all the time "in her heart," but as we can see her Stark identity is firmly in her heart.  

Spoiler

I love how in the sample chapter LF makes her a giant phallic lemon cake. She knows he had it made for her, but there's no mention of her actually eating it.  She calls it a "splendid subtlety," which is funny meaning an elaborate confection but there's nothing subtle about the meaning of it for the reader.  So while Alayne is more worldly, Sansa's innocence and naivete is still inside like she's hovering between knowing and not knowing.      

 

1 hour ago, St Daga said:

Yes. But what will cause that reawakening? Or is it slowly happening already? 

  I think it might be slowly happening if we considering the Hound as her Lady replacement.  Sansa and Sandor often mirror each other's clothing, which could be symbollic of their connection, but also as symbollic skin-changing.  I don't believe Sansa has ever directly had control of an animal or person, but I think her natural empathy might be a means of feeling and sensing through another animal or human.  The scene in Tyrion's POV at the PW where the black dog comes up to sniff Joffrey's body while Cersei is greiving and crying, Sansa has already fled by that time.  In her POV, Sansa knows Joffrey is dead by the bells tolling, but it's her emotional state that is interesting.  And very interesting she talks to the trees too.  

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Sansa felt as though she were in a dream. "Joffrey is dead," she told the trees, to see if that would wake her.

He had not been dead when she left the throne room. He had been on his knees, though, clawing at his throat, tearing at his own skin as he fought to breathe. The sight of it had been too terrible to watch, and she had turned and fled, sobbing. Lady Tanda had been fleeing as well. "You have a good heart, my lady," she said to Sansa. "Not every maid would weep so for a man who set her aside and wed her to a dwarf."

A good heart. I have a good heart. Hysterical laughter rose up her gullet, but Sansa choked it back down. The bells were ringing, slow and mournful. Ringing, ringing, ringing. They had rung for King Robert the same way. Joffrey was dead, he was dead, he was dead, dead, dead. Why was she crying, when she wanted to dance? Were they tears of joy?

She found her clothes where she had hidden them, the night before last. With no maids to help her, it took her longer than it should have to undo the laces of her gown. Her hands were strangely clumsy, though she was not as frightened as she ought to have been

We can say her sobbing at first is a result of the horror, but after Joffrey's out of her sight there's a turn.  She wants to laugh at Lady Tanda's assumption of weeping for Joffrey.  She feels like dancing.  She's chanting he's dead, dead, dead.  She doesn't understand herself why she is crying and wonders if they are tears of joy.  I would think Sansa would know without a doubt if they were tears of joy or not.  She understood her tears before were from from the horror, but she says in the same passage she wasn't so frightened anymore.  She speaks of those tears like they are in conflict with her mental state.  What's going on at this same moment?  That very significantly black dog was next to Cersei while she was grieving for her child.  Dogs being very attentive to human emotional states, could Sansa be empathically feeling a mother's loss of her child through the dog?  I think the black dog has more than one meaning of course.  Honestly, if Sandor had still been around he might have actually been the one kingsguard doing his job and would have spotted the poison or smelled the lie at some point.    

This empathic ability may be a two-way street, because Sansa does demonstrate how she can influence other peoples' states of mind:  the Hound, Sweetrobin, Lancel Lannister.  It's not anywhere near skin-changing and controlling directly, but maybe a little hint at what her flavor of skin-changing might be.             

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44 minutes ago, Isobel Harper said:

I'm not familiar with the theme of crones associating themselves with fools.  Can you explain? 

Long story short: fools have wise insights; crones "light the way," providing wisdom and sometimes prophecy. They are often found together and interact with each other. The Seven Gods religion says that “the Crone… had let the first raven into the world when she peered through the door of death” (ASoS, Chap. 2). I think Mormont's raven is a kind of fool figure, providing wise insights that no one fully recognizes or understands. So the fools in other noble houses are stand-ins for ravens. (More detail in the link, below.)

@Blue-Eyed Wolf Speaking of crones, it is interesting to note that the crone, Lady Tanda, accompanies Sansa on her flight from Joffrey's wedding feast. Lady Tanda is a challenging character to decipher, as she is presumed to be dumb but she is actually quite kind and loyal and generous. Maybe her role is to say things that are half ironic and half true - Sansa probably does have a good heart, but she is not crying out of sorrow for a man who set her aside and wedded her to a dwarf.

It's also interesting that GRRM makes a point of telling us that Sansa dresses herself in the gods wood. Since that crone thread describes dressing young women as a function of a crone, this could indicate that Sansa is skipping the "mother" stage of the seven gods and going straight to crone status.

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@Seams  I went back and read your link.  There's definitely a relationship between fools and crones, though I still lean toward Tanda being more fool than crone.  Reminds me of Arya and the Hound trying to sneak into the Twins under the guise of being sent by Lady Shella Whent.

Quote

"Old Lady Whent, ser."
"Does she think she can buy Harrenhal back with a horse?" the knight asked. "Gods, is there any fool like an old fool?" Yet he waved them down the road. "Go on with you, then."

But the fools do the fooling and they make a fool of someone else, don't they?  I also subscribe to the idea that Lady Whent is not dead, but was that woman in the unmarked carriage Brienne comes across in her search for Sansa.      

I do agree with you that what she says is ironic truth, because it's not for the reasons she believes.  I can see how she can be kind and loyal in a way, but in that very scene is also her ableist attitudes.  She sees Sansa's marriage to a dwarf as an awful disgrace.  She has a disabled daughter that she treats like a burden and an embarassment.  Lollys's rape and pregnancy is yet another obstacle for Tanda to marrying her off and ends up settling for Bronn, a man who doens't care a whit about Lollys, kills her goodson, names her bastard grandson after Sansa's dwarf husband, and probably bumped off Tanda to make himself Lord Stokeworth.  But the imagery of Sansa dressing herself is crone-like if you also consider she had to navigate her way through the dark with Dontos (her fool).  I still see tons of mother imagery and themes surrounding Sansa to say she skips right to the crone, but what she definitely does need is the crone's wisdom.  She'll be on her own for a while with no outside help and she must bury Sansa under the Alayne persona.  The crone could be symbollic of her need to "get wise" fast to avoid being permanently trapped in LF's schemes.                 

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Is "echo" a term common to the general population when describing parallels in history, or is it a term that fans of the book series coined?

Archmaester Perestan teaches history at the Citadel, and bears the copper ring, rod, and mask. 

I just learned this the other day about Perestan, and it got me thinking about Sansa's copper hair and association with bats.  Not sure how to relate this to her but copper > history > echos.  I dunno. 

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1 hour ago, Isobel Harper said:

Is "echo" a term common to the general population when describing parallels in history, or is it a term that fans of the book series coined?

Archmaester Perestan teaches history at the Citadel, and bears the copper ring, rod, and mask. 

I just learned this the other day about Perestan, and it got me thinking about Sansa's copper hair and association with bats.  Not sure how to relate this to her but copper > history > echos.  I dunno. 

I think "echo" is just a term used in thiis forum (maybe in other blogs and websites, too) to try to get at what GRRM is doing with stories and elements of stories that seem to repeat. There was a thread a few months ago with a good, lengthy discussion that tried to sort whether Bran was literally a reborn Bran the Builder, or whether he was one of a series of Brans in the history of Westeros. Some of the discussion tried to figure out what kind of term to use to explain time loops or repetitions of events.

In the first direwolf re-read ("Six Pups in the Snow") we discussed the way the author used elements of the scene where Bran is surrounded by wildlings and deserters in the woods, but Robb and Theon and Grey Wind return in time to save Bran, taking Osha prisoner. There were elements of Ramsay's "girls" in the details of the hunting party, as well as Jon Snow meeting Ygritte. For a little while, we used the term "mosaic" to describe the elements that don't quite match but that can be picked out and rearranged to look like the other stories.

Echo, mosaic - maybe you can come up with a better guess.

ETA: Chain might be a better term. The maester's chains are a record of their learning, so they are kind of like books. I think Tyrion (with his giant chain at King's Landing harbor) and Sam, who will soon be forging his own maester's chain, are going to be the storytellers of this generation of Westeros. So those who interpret and record history are making loops to go into a chain that goes around a neck. (Like a noose! As Lady Stoneheart says, you must choose the noose or the sword!)

Somebody did point out in the Bran the Builder thread (I think) that GRRM used the phrase attributed to Mark Twain: History doesn't repeat itself, but it does rhyme. So maybe "rhymes" would be a better term.

I like the Perestan copper connection to Sansa. A great example for your "people as metals" topic. Maybe the significance will be that Sansa is naturally copper, while all of Perestan's copper items are adornments, not truly part of who he is.

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36 minutes ago, Seams said:

I think "echo" is just a term used in thiis forum (maybe in other blogs and websites, too) to try to get at what GRRM is doing with stories and elements of stories that seem to repeat. There was a thread a few months ago with a good, lengthy discussion that tried to sort whether Bran was literally a reborn Bran the Builder, or whether he was one of a series of Brans in the history of Westeros. Some of the discussion tried to figure out what kind of term to use to explain time loops or repetitions of events.

In the first direwolf re-read ("Six Pups in the Snow") we discussed the way the author used elements of the scene where Bran is surrounded by wildlings and deserters in the woods, but Robb and Theon and Grey Wind return in time to save Bran, taking Osha prisoner. There were elements of Ramsay's "girls" in the details of the hunting party, as well as Jon Snow meeting Ygritte. For a little while, we used the term "mosaic" to describe the elements that don't quite match but that can be picked out and rearranged to look like the other stories.

Echo, mosaic - maybe you can come up with a better guess.

ETA: Chain might be a better term. The maester's chains are a record of their learning, so they are kind of like books. I think Tyrion (with his giant chain at King's Landing harbor) and Sam, who will soon be forging his own maester's chain, are going to be the storytellers of this generation of Westeros. So those who interpret and record history are making loops to go into a chain that goes around a neck. (Like a noose! As Lady Stoneheart says, you must choose the noose or the sword!)

Somebody did point out in the Bran the Builder thread (I think) that GRRM used the phrase attributed to Mark Twain: History doesn't repeat itself, but it does rhyme. So maybe "rhymes" would be a better term.

I like the Perestan copper connection to Sansa. A great example for your "people as metals" topic. Maybe the significance will be that Sansa is naturally copper, while all of Perestan's copper items are adornments, not truly part of who he is.

I was thinking it might relate to Sansa as a storyteller.  She reads to SR about his ancestor, Artys Arryn the Winged Knight, essentially teaching him history.  If she survives the Long Night 2.0, she could play a role in "passing down the story" of the events and characters involved in it. 

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6 hours ago, Isobel Harper said:

I was thinking it might relate to Sansa as a storyteller

That's a very good guess.  She's noted to be a very good writer, reader, singer, and supposely plays the high harp a little.  Could she be the writer of a new song?  A song would be a good way to pass down the "bard's truth" to a mostly illiterate society.  

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  • 1 month later...
On 2/12/2017 at 8:52 AM, Isobel Harper said:

I think all red-haired people are somehow special to Rhllor, not just red-haired people from a certain house. I'm still curious about Sansa's copper hair though.  I think that shade is special with regard to Harrenhal.  Side note: Addam Marbrand is the third example of someone with copper hair.  If copper hair does hint at some kind of genetic connection to Harrenhal, he's got it.  I personally think he's got some Lothston/Whent blood via the maternal line as well.  Tyrek Lannister's mother was a Marbrand, and I do wonder if Tyrek went missing during the riot due to his (potential) heritage. 

@Isobel Harper Yes, Tyrek's mother was a Marbrand, and his grandmother was a Marbrand, and his great-grandmother was Rohanne Webber, the Red Widow herself, who disappeared mysteriously a year after giving birth to her son Jason.

Also, I wanted to point out some wordplay as a callback to another thread about Sansa's Lothston heritage with @Damon_Tor and @Seams, I think?. She was tricked into becoming a Vale bastard and was quite conflicted about going along with the ruse--she is indeed a "loath Stone."

As for people as metals, Donal Noye described Renly as copper because he relies on appearance and dazzle (Robert as steel, and Stannis as iron). Perestan's adornments all seem to have to do with appearances (being adornments, plus...a mask) and the trappings of power (ring, rod). Just some thoughts.

 

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28 minutes ago, thereticent said:

Also, I wanted to point out some wordplay as a callback to another thread about Sansa's Lothston heritage . . . She was tricked into becoming a Vale bastard and was quite conflicted about going along with the ruse--she is indeed a "loath Stone."

That is excellent!

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On 3/19/2017 at 6:35 PM, thereticent said:

Also, I wanted to point out some wordplay as a callback to another thread about Sansa's Lothston heritage with @Damon_Tor and @Seams, I think?. She was tricked into becoming a Vale bastard and was quite conflicted about going along with the ruse--she is indeed a "loath Stone."

Interesting point. I do wonder how often bastard names are used as double meanings in prophecy. We know heraldry is used frequently, and many people point to Melisanre's vision of "only Snow" while trying to see Azor Ahai Reborn as being an example of it. I personally like the interpretation of the Lightbringer story where "Water" refers to a crownlands bastard, either Gendry or one of the "Baratheon" children, all of whom would be called "Waters" if their true parentage were known.

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8 hours ago, Damon_Tor said:

Interesting point. I do wonder how often bastard names are used as double meanings in prophecy. We know heraldry is used frequently, and many people point to Melisandre's vision of "only Snow" while trying to see Azor Ahai Reborn as being an example of it. I personally like the interpretation of the Lightbringer story where "Water" refers to a crownlands bastard, either Gendry or one of the "Baratheon" children, all of whom would be called "Waters" if their true parentage were known.

This is a topic worth a thread of its own! I have always wished we could know the story behind the name of Jafer Flowers. There are a lot of Flowers bastards, but this guy plays such a key symbolic role in the plot. His first name is the closest to Joffrey of any name in the books. The flower motif, with the Knight of Flowers, Lyanna's blue roses and even Sansa as "Roadside Rose," in the song that Merillion says he is writing about her seems significant. And then there is the wordplay on flour, with Ramsay as the son of the miller's wife and Jon Snow covered in flour, pretending to be a ghost in the Winterfell crypt.

The Alayne Stone alias is almost certainly intended to show that the change that comes over Sansa after her escape from King's Landing is related to the change that comes over Catelyn when she becomes Lady Stoneheart. But there's more to it, I'm sure, and a good analysis of the "Stone" surname might help us to sort out the Harrenhal connection, since ruined castles are often described in terms of toppled stones or piles of stones or fragments of stone walls.

Do you want to start a "Double Meanings of Bastard Names" thread?

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And does anyone else find the Ironborn bastard surname "Pyke" somewhat out of place? Every other bastard surname is simply a frequently occurring natural object/substance found in the region in question, but Pyke is the name of a specific island. Why the difference? Why aren't they "Harbob Irons" or "Harjim Salt" or "Harbill Tides" or something? Why "Pyke"?

10 minutes ago, Seams said:

Do you want to start a "Double Meanings of Bastard Names" thread?

I'm not prepared to offer enough of an opinion on the topic to cover a new thread.

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1 minute ago, Damon_Tor said:

And does anyone else find the Ironborn bastard surname "Pyke" somewhat out of place? Every other bastard surname is simply a frequently occurring natural object/substance found in the region in question, but Pyke is the name of a specific island. Why the difference? Why aren't they "Harbob Irons" or "Harjim Salt" or "Harbill Tides" or something? Why "Pyke"?

I'm not prepared to offer enough of an opinion on the topic to cover a new thread.

I don't have too much material to start with, but do you mind if I start a thread?

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