The Bat and the Wolf?

[Blind Beth the Cat Lady]

9 hours ago, Isobel Harper said:

The Harpy of Ghis in Meereen is described as "in place of arms she had the wings of a bat or a dragon."  The Harpy is a woman in power, connected to the image of a bat or a dragon.  In addition to bat and dragon wings depicted as similar, if not identical, in this scene, bat wings and dragon wings are the similarly described as "leather" or "leathery."  Like you, I'm not sure how these tie in exactly, but there might be some sort of connection there.

True. And the Qartheen myth of the moon cracking and a thousand thousand dragons pouring forth is a bit reminiscent of a bat swarm. Other than insects I can't think of any animal that swarms in those numbers. Even very large bird flocks rarely number in the thousands but bat caves often hit several thousand, even millions.

[DarkSister1001]

And then there's this...

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"So much for my brave brothers of the Kingsguard."  The Hound gave a snort of contempt.  "Who killed him?"

"The Imp, it's thought.  Him and his little wife."

"What wife?"

"I forgot, you're been hiding under a rock.  The northern girl.  Winterfell's daughter.  We heard she killed the king with a spell, and afterward changed into a wolf with big leather wings like a bat, and flew out a tower window.  But she left the dwarf behind and Cersei means to have his head."

That's stupid, Arya thought.  Sansa only knows songs, not spells, and she'd never marry the Imp.

ASoS, Chapter 74

 

[Jak Scaletongue]

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The Rock has been a habitation for men for thousands of years. Before the coming of the First Men it seems likely that the children of the forest and giants made their homes in the great sea-carved caverns at its base. Bears, lions, wolves, and bats have also been known to make their lairs within, along with countless lesser creatures.

Is it just me, or is it a little odd that bats are mentioned explicitly?  Beside bears, wolves and lions? And then compared to "lesser creatures"?  The other three are large predators - "Which of these things is not like the others?" Why would bats be mentioned along with three large predatory animals?  And not one of the "countless lesser creatures"?

(Sorry, I did that wrong - Here's part of @The Fattest Leech's comment I'm responding too:

And I know what you are thinking, Bran saw an actual giant bat skeleton in the caves. Well, if you do a search in the World Book, there are no references to giant bats at all. Just regular old sized bats. Once in Casterly Rock and once in Sothoryos.)

So, I'm sold on Bran not actually seeing giant bat skeletons, he's seeing dragon skeletons!

[The Fattest Leech]

1 hour ago, Jak Scaletongue said:

Is it just me, or is it a little odd that bats are mentioned explicitly?  Beside bears, wolves and lions? And then compared to "lesser creatures"?  The other three are large predators - "Which of these things is not like the others?" Why would bats be mentioned along with three large predatory animals?  And not one of the "countless lesser creatures"?

(Sorry, I did that wrong - Here's part of @The Fattest Leech's comment I'm responding too:

And I know what you are thinking, Bran saw an actual giant bat skeleton in the caves. Well, if you do a search in the World Book, there are no references to giant bats at all. Just regular old sized bats. Once in Casterly Rock and once in Sothoryos.)

So, I'm sold on Bran not actually seeing giant bat skeletons, he's seeing dragon skeletons!

YYEESSSS!!!!   

It would be pretty kick-friggin-butt if it was an ice dragon, but it was probably just a "regular" dragon, maybe one that went missing that no one can find.

One thing I will add to my dragon post is that I did find one more reference to bats and it is in... Harrenhal:

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The topmost story was infested with nests of the huge black bats that House Whent had used for its sigil, and there were rats in the cellars as well . . . and ghosts, some said, the spirits of Harren the Black and his sons.

and Bran finds:

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He found chambers full of bones, shafts that plunged deep into the earth, a place where the skeletons of gigantic bats hung upside down from the ceiling. He even crossed the slender stone bridge that arched over the abyss and discovered more passages and chambers on the far side. One was full of singers, enthroned like Brynden in nests of weirwood roots that wove under and through and around their bodies.

 

(don't tell anyone but I am a not-so-secret, secret ice dragon lover and would love to have an ice dragon be reborn... aside from Jon)

[Blind Beth the Cat Lady]

2 hours ago, DarkSister1001 said:

And then there's this...

 

Yep!

I think we get clues in Dany's fever dream that the Amethyst Empress actually entered a second life in a dragon and flew away after she was murdered.

And we have Sansa being rumored to fly away on dragon-like wings after an amethyst-related murder. In a way she also enters a "second life" as Alayne.

Based on other clues (I'm being super vague to keep it short, but I'm slowly working on writing all of this up in full) I think that the AE was associated with the Maid (keeping in mind the Maid is also patroness of brides and young lovers), but in her second life was associated with the Mother. Much like Maid-figure Dany symbolically dies on the pyre and is reborn as a Mother figure, and Sansa in her "second life" as Alayne acts as a mother figure to Sweetrobin.

I think this may be an important pattern that also plays out for other AE-associated characters, like Ashara Dayne for example.

[bemused]

I love this topic, but my brain is with Daario ATM, and I was posting on the fly yesterday .. and making silly mistakes (I should know better).. so I checked this one..

"This was the most beautiful city on the river, and the richest," said Yandry. "Chroyane, the festival city."

Too rich, thought Tyrion, too beautiful. It is never wise to tempt the dragons. The drowned city was all around them. A half-seen shape flapped by overhead, pale leathery wings beating at the fog. The dwarf craned his head around to get a better look, but the thing was gone as suddenly as it had appeared. ... ADWD, Tyrion V

Perhaps another piece of the puzzle ? ... I'l be sad if there are / were no flesh and blood giant bats (I wants them), but I'll take dragons, too..

IIRC, George has said there were once dragons in the north ?

 

[Blind Beth the Cat Lady]

"Gigantic bats" may be the same as "huge bats," or they may be megafauna that has gone extinct, leaving only bones as a record. And if none of those bones has made its way to the Citadel they naturally wouldn't be in the Worldbook.

Or they might have cousins flapping around Chroyane. :-D Foggy rivers are great spots for bats b/c they are great spots for bugs.

[The Fattest Leech]

6 minutes ago, Blind Beth the Cat Lady said:

"Gigantic bats" may be the same as "huge bats," or they may be megafauna that has gone extinct, leaving only bones as a record. And if none of those bones has made its way to the Citadel they naturally wouldn't be in the Worldbook.

Or they might have cousins flapping around Chroyane. :-D Foggy rivers are great spots for bats b/c they are great spots for bugs.

I'd be willing to bet that there were/are giant mammalian bats in Sothoryos at least.

[Blind Beth the Cat Lady]

4 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

I'd be willing to bet that there were/are giant mammalian bats in Sothoryos at least.

Oh my yes. I didn't even think about that. They definitely have those huge flying lizzards, there's probably some monster bats around as well.

[DarkSister1001]

19 minutes ago, Blind Beth the Cat Lady said:

Yep!

I think we get clues in Dany's fever dream that the Amethyst Empress actually entered a second life in a dragon and flew away after she was murdered.

And we have Sansa being rumored to fly away on dragon-like wings after an amethyst-related murder. In a way she also enters a "second life" as Alayne.

Based on other clues (I'm being super vague to keep it short, but I'm slowly working on writing all of this up in full) I think that the AE was associated with the Maid (keeping in mind the Maid is also patroness of brides and young lovers), but in her second life was associated with the Mother. Much like Maid-figure Dany symbolically dies on the pyre and is reborn as a Mother figure, and Sansa in her "second life" as Alayne acts as a mother figure to Sweetrobin.

I think this may be an important pattern that also plays out for other AE-associated characters, like Ashara Dayne for example.

Cool!  I'm excited to read it. 

18 minutes ago, bemused said:

IIRC, George has said there were once dragons in the north ?

 

Yes ma'am. 

8 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

I'd be willing to bet that there were/are giant mammalian bats in Sothoryos at least.

The ones that were rumored to drink blood?

[bemused]

Blind Beth , Fattest Leech.. Exactly.. When Leaf tells Bran the great lions of the west are gone and goes on to speak of other life forms that will be going, she simply may not have mentioned the bats (tricky of her...)

[Lord Wraith]

9 hours ago, Blind Beth the Cat Lady said:

Oh my yes. I didn't even think about that. They definitely have those huge flying lizzards, there's probably some monster bats around as well.

Aren't there the bones of some giant bats in the caves of the COTF?

[Blind Beth the Cat Lady]

12 hours ago, Lord Wraith said:

Aren't there the bones of some giant bats in the caves of the COTF?

On 3/15/2016 at 4:44 PM, The Fattest Leech said:

 

Yes and Yes to your hidden comments! I have a thing for bats in real life and they stand out to me wherever I go. Also when I read like the comparison Bran makes to giant bats in the cave that matches how Dany describes Viseryion while locked away.

A few months back I asked about why Varys wants to find Sansa and the Shadrich connection and then the TWOW stuff, yadda, yadda, yadda. I never got an answer that felt... right, but I think this is it.

What you have here is great. Thank you. Please post anymore to this if it comes to you.

 

 

[Springwatch]

The bat-wolf story stuck out like a sore thumb to me - it seemed just too unlikely, why would anyone think Sansa was a witch? So I marked it down as forshadowing, along with all the other sore-thumb stuff. And it reminded me of something in the show - Sansa wearing dresses with designs of dragonflies. Like the bat-wolf story, this came out of nowhere, was a bit unexpected and surprising, and so far has led to nothing at all. I wonder if a verbal clue in the book has translated into a visual clue for the show. So my feeling is that bats and dragonflies serve the same purpose, which is to tell us something about dragons, and in Sansa's case, that she will meet a dragon, she may metamorphose into a dragonrider or she may be a tiny, pale imitation of a real dragonrider (Dany, say) - but definitely, definitely, something, something dragon.

[Isobel Harper]

On 4/14/2016 at 3:23 PM, Springwatch said:

The bat-wolf story stuck out like a sore thumb to me - it seemed just too unlikely, why would anyone think Sansa was a witch? So I marked it down as forshadowing, along with all the other sore-thumb stuff. And it reminded me of something in the show - Sansa wearing dresses with designs of dragonflies. Like the bat-wolf story, this came out of nowhere, was a bit unexpected and surprising, and so far has led to nothing at all. I wonder if a verbal clue in the book has translated into a visual clue for the show. So my feeling is that bats and dragonflies serve the same purpose, which is to tell us something about dragons, and in Sansa's case, that she will meet a dragon, she may metamorphose into a dragonrider or she may be a tiny, pale imitation of a real dragonrider (Dany, say) - but definitely, definitely, something, something dragon.

In the text, the Harpy is a woman in power with imagery of a "bat" and "dragon" attached to it.  ("In place of arms [the Harpy] had the wings of a bat or a dragon.")  Sansa may indeed be an "imitation" of Daenerys in that she also becomes some sort of woman in power, like Queen/Wardeness of the North, for example.  I've also taken into account that the Sansa->bat->dragon connection might point to a connection to a dragon or dragonrider as well.  Some theorize (ref: 5th Suitor Theory, a theory I'm on the fence on) that Sansa will marry Aegon, with the Targaryen line continuing through them.  This echoes "Mother of Dragons," albeit not the literal type of dragon.

In the literature, we can connect Viserion, Sansa, and bats due to similar language in the text.  However, a TV show cannot draw a parallel using literary imagery like a book does.  Instead, they use literal imagery.  So they use dragonflies.  A dragonfly, like a butterfly, symbolizes some sort of metamorphosis.  Sansa reflects in ASoS a transformation taking place within her: "to porcelain, to ivory, to steel."  Dragonflies have a unique look.  The insect even has the word "dragon" in its name.  The book series even makes its own connection to dragons and dragonflies: Aegon V's son Duncan was referred to as the Prince of Dragonflies.

[Isobel Harper]

On 3/14/2016 at 8:09 PM, bemused said:

Ta-Da ! Never thought about this before, but I like it very much.. since I think Sansa's Whent blood (and possibly some wrong -side-of-the-blanket Lothston blood) may be quite important down the road.

Brienne begins searching for Sansa bearing a Lothston shield. 

Shadrich questions / tests her, to see if she is after Varys' bag of dragons when he sees it. (I really doubt that's his motive .. )

I always felt the Mad Mouse was on Sansa's side, somehow, with the old gods' colours on his shield...

  Reveal hidden contents

But then in the TWoW Alayne chapter, when he quips he won't be competing to be a winged knight, because "A mouse with wings would be a silly sight" (winged mouse = fledermaus = bat) .. coupled with his red hair..

... I became more convinced that she has something to do in or around Harrenhall - without Petyr.

Sansa's abduction parallels the abduction of a goddess in Norse mythology, Idunn.  Idunn is kidnapped during a feast in Asgard, the seat of the gods.  A giant, Thjazi, kidnaps her in the form of a bird and carries Idunn away into a mountain.  Sound familiar? 

As for Sansa acquiring Harrenhal, I came across something new today with regards to Thjazi.  Thjazi (the LF parallel) had a daughter, Skadi.  When Thjazi is murdered for kidnapping Idunn, Skadi is given her father's seat in compensation for his death.  Perhaps Sansa acquires Harrenhal when LF dies?

[The Fattest Leech]

I came across this today while doing a re-listen and thought of this thread  I feels it means something. 

i don't think it's been mentioned, my apologies if has. 

Storm, Sansa 4. This the chapter before Joffery dies at the Purple Wedding. 

Tyrion scarce touched his food, Sansa noticed, though he drank several cups of the wine. For herself, she tried a little of the Dornish eggs, but the peppers burned her mouth. Otherwise she only nibbled at the fruit and fish and honeycakes. Every time Joffrey looked at her, her tummy got so fluttery that she felt as though she'd swallowed a bat.

[The Fattest Leech]

And ok, bare with me cuz' this is gonna sound really weird. We all know that Sansa is linked to the Hound in a probably romantic way. And we know that GRRM loves his comic books. I think I also found a link that proves this theory correct, if not fully known what the outcome will be. George mention Batman comics in this interview http://www.abebooks.com/docs/Fantasy/george-martin.shtml 

another aticle where GRRM explains comic writers are more influence on him than Tolkien http://www.bbc.com/culture/story/20140826-who-inspired-george-rr-martin

However, in the Batman comics, there is a dog called the bat-hound and his name is Ace. Ace has a prominent star shape on his forehead. You smart readers here will know the reference to the star and how it is linked to Sandor at this point in the story. Batman even makes a hood-like mask for Ace to wear, which kinda fits with how we see Sandor when Brienne runs into him on QI. Sansa carries his cloak with her after the Battle of Blackwater. 

You can do a little reading here https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ace_the_Bat-Hound 

I know it sounds crazy, and it's not the craziest thing I have said today. Just to let you know how crazy I am, a few weeks ago I found a link between the wood dancers and Bran becoming a warrior and frickin' Pinocchio.   It is very clear that GRRM wrote with a lot of inspiration, like a good writer should. 

[The Fattest Leech]

1 hour ago, Isobel Harper said:

Sansa's abduction parallels the abduction of a goddess in Norse mythology, Idunn.  Idunn is kidnapped during a feast in Asgard, the seat of the gods.  A giant, Thjazi, kidnaps her in the form of a bird and carries Idunn away into a mountain.  Sound familiar? 

As for Sansa acquiring Harrenhal, I came across something new today with regards to Thjazi.  Thjazi (the LF parallel) had a daughter, Skadi.  When Thjazi is murdered for kidnapping Idunn, Skadi is given her father's seat in compensation for his death.  Perhaps Sansa acquires Harrenhal when LF dies?

I love those old Norse stories. They are so bizarre and beautiful. 

The more I think about it, the more I totally agree that Sansa will get Harrenal. That place has been cursed and the only way to make it right is to have the "bat" back in the belfry. 

[Isobel Harper]

46 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

And ok, bare with me cuz' this is gonna sound really weird. We all know that Sansa is linked to the Hound in a probably romantic way. And we know that GRRM loves his comic books. I think I also found a link that proves this theory correct, if not fully known what the outcome will be. George mention Batman comics in this interview http://www.abebooks.com/docs/Fantasy/george-martin.shtml 

another aticle where GRRM explains comic writers are more influence on him than Tolkien http://www.bbc.com/culture/story/20140826-who-inspired-george-rr-martin

 

Evidence of what outcome?  The articles seem to only cover comic books as an inspiration for GRRM to become a writer.

47 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

However, in the Batman comics, there is a dog called the bat-hound and his name is Ace. Ace has a prominent star shape on his forehead. You smart readers here will know the reference to the star and how it is linked to Sandor at this point in the story. Batman even makes a hood-like mask for Ace to wear, which kinda fits with how we see Sandor when Brienne runs into him on QI. Sansa carries his cloak with her after the Battle of Blackwater. 

You can do a little reading here https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ace_the_Bat-Hound 

Hahaha!  I've noticed this before too.  I reminded me of The Hound as well.  Both Sansa and Arya (who are both associated with Harrenhal) have the Hound as a "sidekick" for a time.  And Sansa even has her own Robin. 

I suppose Arya is more of a Catwoman than a Batman now?  I dunno.

I think you'd be interested in watching this Arya is Batman theory.