Isobel Harper

The Bat and the Wolf?

163 posts in this topic

2 minutes ago, Isobel Harper said:

 

Evidence of what outcome?  The articles seem to only cover comic books as an inspiration for GRRM to become a writer.

Hahaha!  I've noticed this before too.  I reminded me of The Hound as well.  Both Sansa and Arya (who are both associated with Harrenhal) have the Hound as a "sidekick" for a time.  And Sansa even has her own Robin.  :D

I suppose Arya is more of a Catwoman than a Batman now?  I dunno.

I think you'd be interested in watching this Arya is Batman theory. 

 

What I mean by evidence of outcome is even though the stories "broad stroke" concept may be similar, GRRM will no doubt change the ending as to not completely rip off the original author, and to not give away the ending. Sorry if I'm not making sense. An old brain injury from years past is making typing hard. 

george being as in to comics as a kid no doubt influenced both wanting to write and what to write. There is always a bit that seeps out subconsciously. Many authors avoid reading in their written genre because they want to avoid subconscious leaks. 

I agree, Arya is cat woman! How funny :D I didn't think of that one. 

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23 minutes ago, Isobel Harper said:

 

Evidence of what outcome?  The articles seem to only cover comic books as an inspiration for GRRM to become a writer.

Hahaha!  I've noticed this before too.  I reminded me of The Hound as well.  Both Sansa and Arya (who are both associated with Harrenhal) have the Hound as a "sidekick" for a time.  And Sansa even has her own Robin.  :D

I suppose Arya is more of a Catwoman than a Batman now?  I dunno.

I think you'd be interested in watching this Arya is Batman theory. 

 

Just watched the video. I loved it. Thanks for sharing. Good to know there is more than one crazy like me out there :D

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On 3/14/2016 at 7:18 PM, Isobel Harper said:

 Sansa drifted to sleep as the moon rose, Arya several hours later, curling up in the grass under Ned's cloak.

<snip>That is, the order of the hours are bat, eel, ghosts, owl, wolf, nightingale.  The hour of the wolf is "several hour later" than the hour of the bat. 

Therefore, in this scene, Sansa and Arya fell asleep during the hour of the bat and the hour of the wolf, respectively, no?

I recently came upon a quote, possibly connected to what time Arya falls asleep.  It occurs during her escape of Harrenhal:

Gendry nodded. Hot Pie said, "Hoot like an owl when you want us to come."

"I'm not an owl," said Arya. "I'm a wolf. I'll howl."

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RE: Stark/Harrenhal connection.  (Prepare to have your mind blown.)

Tully blood ruling Harrenhal is not something new.  When Aegon I granted Harrenhal to Quenton Qoherys, he married one of Lord Tully's daughters.  This means that his grandson, Gargon, was at least 1/4 Tully.  Catelyn's parents were Hoster Tully and Minisa Whent.  So essentially, Catelyn is half-Tully and half-"Harrenhal."  Therefore, Catelyn's children are 1/4 Tully, like Gargon.  (One may say that Catelyn was technically a Tully, but here Catelyn parallels Gargon's unnamed parent.  Both were Tully and Qoherys in name, but half-Tully and half-Qoherys in blood, respectively.)

Gargon was executed in the godswood.  Lord Gargon was gelded in the castle's godswood and left to bleed to death, per AWoIaFLet's consider the repercussions of his death.  If Gargon bled and died in the godswood, did his blood and "life" go into the weirwood tree?  Perhaps this is why Harrenhal's weirwood has such an angry face.  Did the curse really begin after Harren the Black's death or did it begin after Gargon Qoherys'?  Both deaths were terrible, but only Gorgon's involved blood and a godswood, and therefore, a weirwood which "always remembers" and is immortal. 

Let's parallel Gorgon dying to Catelyn dying.  In the godswood, Gorgon laid dying, bleeding to death, knowing that his death would lead to the end of his line.  As Catelyn saw Robb die, she knew his line would end with him.  Sansa was a Lannister (and disinherited), and her other children were thought to be dead.  She now "lives" as Stoneheart, an angry, vengeful revenant of her former self, looking for an heir to crown.  Like UnCat, is there an UnGargon living in Harrenhal's weirwood, angry and vengeful, looking for an heir?  Perhaps this "UnGargon" is looking for someone else with 1/4 Tully blood, like him, to be his heir.

Now begins some theorizing and speculation:  Were House Lothston and House Whent related to House Qoherys? 

First, let's examine how House Lothston and House Whent are related.  Note the 9 bats on House Whent's arms.  (Examine House Lothston's and House Whent's arms if you are not already familiar with them.)  When the animal on arms is repeated, it often indicates a "Nth" descendant of a certain line.  Maekar Targaryen, for example, had 4 three-headed dragons on his arms to indicate that he was a 4th son.  Therefore, the 9 bats of House Whent would indicate that they are the 9th descendant of House Lothston.  Since Whent is a different name than Lothston, it seems that this 9th descendant was a woman.  So, like the current Tully-Starks, House Whent had relation to Harrenhal through the female line. 

But what evidence do we have that House Lothston and, therefore, House Whent are related to House Qoherys?  Well, first and foremost, House Lothston and House Whent never went extinct,.not through blood.  House Lothston lived on through House Whent, and Shella Whent held Harrenhal and lost it without dying, therefore surviving the Curse.  (Also, Shella Whent might already have an heir ala Stark.)  If one can conclude that the Curse of Harrenhal is a curse derived from Gargon Qoherys (not Harren Hoare) like I do, one can see why House Lothston and House Whent never went extinct: they were related to House Qoherys in some way.

ETA: Further evidence that House Hoare isn't the origin of the Curse: House Hoare didn't go extinct (not through blood) when Aegon I burned Harrenhal.  It lived on through Harren the Red.  It was only after Harren the Red reconquered Harrenhal, after Gargon Qoherys' death, that House Hoare went extinct in name and in blood.

House Qoherys' arms featured four skulls.  It's probably an allusion to House Hoare's arms, the sigils depicted in chains replaced with skulls.  Harrenhal has had seven houses rule Harrenhal:  Hoare, Qoherys, Harroway, Towers, Strong, Lothston, and Whent.  As concluded earlier, House Qoherys, Lothston, and Whent are related and never went extinct via blood relation.  This leaves Hoare, Harroway, Towers, and Strong, houses that did go extinct in name and in blood.  And how many houses is that?  Four, like the four skulls of House Qoherys.

(Note: House Slynt and House Baelish have earned the title of Lord of Harrenhal, but have yet to actually rule Harrenhal from Harrenhal, and do not count.  Perhaps this is why Petyr Baelish refuses to step foot in Harrenhal; he knows that without, for example, being married to Sansa, he is subject to the curse.  Or perhaps he thinks Sansa playing the role of his daughter will lift the curse on him?)

Edited by Isobel Harper

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10 hours ago, Isobel Harper said:

~snipped some good stuff to save space~

(Note: House Slynt and House Baelish have earned the title of Lord of Harrenhal, but have yet to actually rule Harrenhal from Harrenhal, and do not count.  Perhaps this is why Petyr Baelish refuses to step foot in Harrenhal; he knows that without, for example, being married to Sansa, he is subject to the curse.  Or perhaps he thinks Sansa playing the role of his daughter will lift the curse on him?)

I love the amount of time and effort that went in to this. Really good work.

I have felt for a while now that Sansa has a strong connection to Harrenhal that the other Stark kids don't... even though Arya was actually there, her connection was different. For Arya, this was her first step in becoming a servant of dead. Where she learned to literally serve food and drink (like the drink in HoBW) and started her selection of who lives/ who dies that continues to develop from this point on.

Back to Sansa, it is her loss of Lady and identity with flying animals, specifically bats, that will bring her here (she is part of the pack, yet one apart... ironically like Jon whom she always called bastard brother).

I always thought it was weird that Baelish never went to HH, but now with Sansa... I see your connection :thumbsup: It is just too funny to think of Baelish as afraid of "ghosts". I don't think Baelish will live long enough to take Sansa there to play his daughter/ lift the curse. Maybe it will be Sansa's Whent blood that calms the place?

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On 4/14/2016 at 4:23 PM, Springwatch said:

The bat-wolf story stuck out like a sore thumb to me - it seemed just too unlikely, why would anyone think Sansa was a witch? So I marked it down as forshadowing, along with all the other sore-thumb stuff. And it reminded me of something in the show - Sansa wearing dresses with designs of dragonflies. Like the bat-wolf story, this came out of nowhere, was a bit unexpected and surprising, and so far has led to nothing at all. I wonder if a verbal clue in the book has translated into a visual clue for the show. So my feeling is that bats and dragonflies serve the same purpose, which is to tell us something about dragons, and in Sansa's case, that she will meet a dragon, she may metamorphose into a dragonrider or she may be a tiny, pale imitation of a real dragonrider (Dany, say) - but definitely, definitely, something, something dragon.

In the books, Catelyn and Robb have an important conversation at Oldstones about the need for Robb to have an heir. The lead-up to their conversation includes Catelyn recalling a visit to the same location years ago with her father and with Petyr Baelish. Catelyn played the part of Jenny of Oldstones and Petyr was the Prince of Dragonflies:

"There's a song," he remembered. " 'Jenny of Oldstones, with the flowers in her hair.' "

"We're all just songs in the end. If we are lucky." She had played at being Jenny that day, had even wound flowers in her hair. And Petyr had pretended to be her Prince of Dragonflies. Catelyn could not have been more than twelve, Petyr just a boy.

Since Alayne Stone shares many elements with Catelyn, the dragonflies you noticed on her clothing could be the show's way of making a connection to both Jenny of Oldstones and her Targaryen prince, but also to Catelyn and Petyr and, thus, Sansa and Petyr. (Note: Because of the hair / heir pun, and the fact that Robb's heir will also be Catelyn's heir, the flowers in Catelyn's hair might symbolize her tacit belief that Jon Snow will be her heir. I'm assuming the general belief that flowers are symbols of Lyanna and of Jon.)

This doesn't preclude another layer of foreshadowing, with the dragonflies also hinting about a dragon connection for Sansa (or for Petyr - I happen to suspect that he has a couple of dragon eggs). 

On 4/16/2016 at 7:43 PM, Isobel Harper said:

In the text, the Harpy is a woman in power with imagery of a "bat" and "dragon" attached to it.  ("In place of arms [the Harpy] had the wings of a bat or a dragon.")  Sansa may indeed be an "imitation" of Daenerys in that she also becomes some sort of woman in power, like Queen/Wardeness of the North, for example. 

Very interesting. Now I wonder whether Merillion's wood harp was mentioned so frequently in the Alayne chapters to underscore this harpy symbolism for Sansa? Ned told us in an early POV that Sansa loves singers. But singers are truth-tellers in ASOIAF, and Littlefinger persuades Sansa to become a liar just about the time that Merillion appears to be blinded and maimed and accused of Lysa's murder. (Parallelng Arya's Blind Beth experience?) He is allowed to keep his harp, though, and maybe that is a symbol that Sansa is still a singer / truth-teller and a strong woman / harpy in spite of outward appearances. 

On 5/1/2016 at 10:02 PM, Isobel Harper said:

...Sansa even has her own Robin. 

I suppose Arya is more of a Catwoman than a Batman now?  I dunno.

I think you'd be interested in watching this Arya is Batman theory.

This is great! I was starting to make the Batman connections with Sansa's story as I was reading this thread and the other discussion of the Lothston heritage, but the Arya connections are great, too! So we have Bran in a bat cave and Arya with the Faceless Men / League of Assassins / League of Shadows. But I've recently been considering that we readers are supposed to see Littlefinger and the Kindly Man as parallel characters: both masters of coins, each guiding a Stark sister toward false identities, acts of dishonesty and involving them in murders that are parts of some larger hidden agenda. So maybe we can continue to make a case for Sansa as Batman, even though the Arya evidence is persuasive.

Aside from her own Robin, something Sansa has that Arya does not is a connection to the Waynwood family. (Wayne, get it?) Anya Waynwood's youthful ward, Dick Grayson Harry the Heir, in fact, could indicate that Sansa has two Robins.

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Bat Sansa? Pow! Zonk!! Zappy!!! 10 points to anyone who gets that.

It's a great pick up on symbolism and I never really thought about it before but it makes sense.

So the way I see it, is with the POV, Characters and overall Story, it has a classical 3 act structure. Within the POV's they have that same structure. An example. Dany is the easiest, so when you meet Dany like all the characters she has symbolism. So at first in act one Dany is basically a moon maiden. The moon symbolism is there and she is a maiden. Now in act one we see foreshadowing to act 2, the dragon dreams. So when Dany eventually goes into the fire to mark the end of act one you see a transformation, Moon Maiden, Becomes Mother of Dragons. Every act is marked by something like this for the characters.

So you take Sansa, when you first meet her, Lady. She is a Stark, wolf symbolism. Of course Ned executes Lady and Sansa is given over to the Lannisters. Slowly Sansa will transform to her act two part. Little Bird. While it is the Hound who says it, she eventually ends up with Little Finger the Mocking Bird, and at the Eyrie in the Vale of Arryn, lots of birds, lots of moon symbolism.

Her transformation from Lady the little Wolf to Little Bird happens and act two starts after her escape. Now she is with Littlefinger and he is the Lord of Harrenhal, and you see other things as you all have mentioned tying her to the Bat. Just like with Littlebird you get this foreshadowing. In the Vale she is not longer a Lady but a bastard and a Little Bird surrounded by other birds. The bats hints foreshadow the future just as Little bird did.

Sansa has a lot of value, in the context of the world she lives in. She is still a daughter of house Stark, she has strong connections to the Vale and to Riverrun as well. We see Littlefinger talk about this, and the Lannisters. Kind of how people chase after Dany like Euron, Darrio, Vic, etc... they see value and power. It's not nice but it is the reality of that world.

So when you look at the Hands Tourney you see Sansa kind of mirror Lyanna, so it would be no surprise if Harrenhal is on the table. Now it just so happens that there is a Blue eyed Baratheon on the field with connections to the North now fighting a rebellion. And there is a "Targaryen" a supposed son of Rhaegar also on the field. Oh and he is making connections to Dorne. He of course it s tied to Littlefingers foil Varys.

So it would seem you can see something similar forming to what we have seen before. Not the exact same of course, but there is repetitive theme to this story. Which ties into the cyclical nature of the story. Do to a rather big lie, Sansa is already basically the lady of Harrenhal. Though not really, she is not Littlefinger real daughter after all. But she does happen to be engaged too a rather Robert like character. Of course a little different, Robert had black hair.

But right now I have a Baratheon at war, and a Targaryen going to war, and a Stark who was given a rose at a tourney. If there is a Dragon in her future, for good or for bad, it would seem to be Aegon. Though she could side with Stannis. Aegon and Dorne, Stannis and the Vale. Maybe, you never know. Anyway that's my 2 cents, Love Bat Sansa. But I can't get that theme music out of my head, NA NA NA NA NA NA NA NA NA NA NA NA NA NA BATSAN!!!

 

Edited by Ser Creighton

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On 5/3/2016 at 9:22 AM, Isobel Harper said:

RE: Stark/Harrenhal connection.  (Prepare to have your mind blown.)

Tully blood ruling Harrenhal is not something new.  When Aegon I granted Harrenhal to Quenton Qoherys, he married one of Lord Tully's daughters.  This means that his grandson, Gargon, was at least 1/4 Tully.  Catelyn's parents were Hoster Tully and Minisa Whent.  So essentially, Catelyn is half-Tully and half-"Harrenhal."  Therefore, Catelyn's children are 1/4 Tully, like Gargon.  (One may say that Catelyn was technically a Tully, but here Catelyn parallels Gargon's unnamed parent.  Both were Tully and Qoherys in name, but half-Tully and half-Qoherys in blood, respectively.)

Gargon was executed in the godswood.  Lord Gargon was gelded in the castle's godswood and left to bleed to death, per AWoIaFLet's consider the repercussions of his death.  If Gargon bled and died in the godswood, did his blood and "life" go into the weirwood tree?  Perhaps this is why Harrenhal's weirwood has such an angry face.  Did the curse really begin after Harren the Black's death or did it begin after Gargon Qoherys'?  Both deaths were terrible, but only Gorgon's involved blood and a godswood, and therefore, a weirwood which "always remembers" and is immortal. 

Let's parallel Gorgon dying to Catelyn dying.  In the godswood, Gorgon laid dying, bleeding to death, knowing that his death would lead to the end of his line.  As Catelyn saw Robb die, she knew his line would end with him.  Sansa was a Lannister (and disinherited), and her other children were thought to be dead.  She now "lives" as Stoneheart, an angry, vengeful revenant of her former self, looking for an heir to crown.  Like UnCat, is there an UnGargon living in Harrenhal's weirwood, angry and vengeful, looking for an heir?  Perhaps this "UnGargon" is looking for someone else with 1/4 Tully blood, like him, to be his heir.

Now begins some theorizing and speculation:  Were House Lothston and House Whent related to House Qoherys? 

First, let's examine how House Lothston and House Whent are related.  Note the 9 bats on House Whent's arms.  (Examine House Lothston's and House Whent's arms if you are not already familiar with them.)  When the animal on arms is repeated, it often indicates a "Nth" descendant of a certain line.  Maekar Targaryen, for example, had 4 three-headed dragons on his arms to indicate that he was a 4th son.  Therefore, the 9 bats of House Whent would indicate that they are the 9th descendant of House Lothston.  Since Whent is a different name than Lothston, it seems that this 9th descendant was a woman.  So, like the current Tully-Starks, House Whent had relation to Harrenhal through the female line. 

But what evidence do we have that House Lothston and, therefore, House Whent are related to House Qoherys?  Well, first and foremost, House Lothston and House Whent never went extinct,.not through blood.  House Lothston lived on through House Whent, and Shella Whent held Harrenhal and lost it without dying, therefore surviving the Curse.  (Also, Shella Whent might already have an heir ala Stark.)  If one can conclude that the Curse of Harrenhal is a curse derived from Gargon Qoherys (not Harren Hoare) like I do, one can see why House Lothston and House Whent never went extinct: they were related to House Qoherys in some way.

ETA: Further evidence that House Hoare isn't the origin of the Curse: House Hoare didn't go extinct (not through blood) when Aegon I burned Harrenhal.  It lived on through Harren the Red.  It was only after Harren the Red reconquered Harrenhal, after Gargon Qoherys' death, that House Hoare went extinct in name and in blood.

House Qoherys' arms featured four skulls.  It's probably an allusion to House Hoare's arms, the sigils depicted in chains replaced with skulls.  Harrenhal has had seven houses rule Harrenhal:  Hoare, Qoherys, Harroway, Towers, Strong, Lothston, and Whent.  As concluded earlier, House Qoherys, Lothston, and Whent are related and never went extinct via blood relation.  This leaves Hoare, Harroway, Towers, and Strong, houses that did go extinct in name and in blood.  And how many houses is that?  Four, like the four skulls of House Qoherys.

(Note: House Slynt and House Baelish have earned the title of Lord of Harrenhal, but have yet to actually rule Harrenhal from Harrenhal, and do not count.  Perhaps this is why Petyr Baelish refuses to step foot in Harrenhal; he knows that without, for example, being married to Sansa, he is subject to the curse.  Or perhaps he thinks Sansa playing the role of his daughter will lift the curse on him?)

Harpy/harp 

We've already established Harpy representing a woman in power.  Harps are tied to women's "softer" skills at court.  Sansa practices the harp while enjoying the company of Margaery's ladies; Arianne mentions playing the harp to Dornish lords and ladies, per her father's instruction, a connection to Doran coaxing Arianne to use "softer" diplomatic skills. 

 

ETA: Shit.  Quoted the wrong comment!  Meant to quote @Seams.

Edited by Isobel Harper

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On 3.5.2016 at 4:22 PM, Isobel Harper said:

When Aegon I granted Harrenhal to Quenton Qoherys, he married one of Lord Tully's daughters.  This means that his grandson, Gargon, was at least 1/4 Tully.

That's wrong. Quenton married the daughter in 7 AC and died in 9 AC. After his death his grandson Gargon took over Harrenhal, so Gargon must have been a grandson through other children Quenton might have had with a former wife.

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10 hours ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

That's wrong. Quenton married the daughter in 7 AC and died in 9 AC. After his death his grandson Gargon took over Harrenhal, so Gargon must have been a grandson through other children Quenton might have had with a former wife.

Where did you find Quenton's date of death?  I searched asearchoficeandfire.com and couldn't find anything.

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1 hour ago, Isobel Harper said:

Where did you find Quenton's date of death?  I searched asearchoficeandfire.com and couldn't find anything.

It was mentioned in a reading, Lord Varys confirmed it here.

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On 3/13/2016 at 8:18 PM, Isobel Harper said:

Ned knelt beside her. "He has years to find that answer, Arya. For now, it is enough to know that he will live." The night the bird had come from Winterfell, Eddard Stark had taken the girls to the castle godswood, an acre of elm and alder and black cottonwood overlooking the river. The heart tree there was a great oak, its ancient limbs overgrown with smokeberry vines; they knelt before it to offer their thanksgiving, as if it had been a weirwood. Sansa drifted to sleep as the moon rose, Arya several hours later, curling up in the grass under Ned's cloak. All through the dark hours he kept his vigil alone. When dawn broke over the city, the dark red blooms of dragon's breath surrounded the girls where they lay. "I dreamed of Bran," Sansa had whispered to him. "I saw him smiling."

So far in the series, the hour of the bat is the earliest of the "hours of the night," making the hour of the bat likely the time that Sansa fell asleep.  The hour of the bat precedes the hour of the eel.  The hour of the eel precedes the hour of the ghosts.  The hour of the ghost precedes the hour of the owl.  The hour of the owl precedes the hour of the wolf.  The hour of the wolf precedes the hour of the nightingale.  That is, the order of the hours are bat, eel, ghosts, owl, wolf, nightingale.  The hour of the wolf is "several hour later" than the hour of the bat. 

Therefore, in this scene, Sansa and Arya fell asleep during the hour of the bat and the hour of the wolf, respectively, no?

No, I don't think Arya fell asleep during the hour of the wolf, because isn't the hour of the nightingale right before dawn or dawn itself? How can Ned keep his vigil alone all through the dark hours if Arya was awake until the hour of the wolf?

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3 hours ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

It was mentioned in a reading, Lord Varys confirmed it here.

Oooh, interesting.  Well, so much for Gorgon being 1/4 Tully.  I had figured that Gorgon inherited Harrenhal because Quenton had only daughters with his Tully bride and that Gargon was the first male grandson (either that our that Quenton's son died very young). 

Speaking of only daughters, I've also speculated that one of Quenton's daughters married back into House Tully, giving the current Tullys (albeit distant) Valyrian blood.  Again, speculation.   However, given that Gorgon is NOT part Tully and that (as your thread you linked mentions) House Tully had "troublesome connection" to Gorgon, I wonder if a daughter from the Quenton-Tully union DIDN'T marry back into House Tully.  I mean, what other connection would there be after Quenton died? 

Now I totally want to read "Fire and Blood."  And that bit about Harren the Red feeding Gorgon's genitals to a dog - dang.  Reminds me of Ramsey. 

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There is a very strong connection of Stark kids to Harrenhal - Jon's parents met there, Arya went through some difficult time there, Bran and his abilities are obviously connected to Children of the Forest and weirwoods which to personally means he will visit Isle of Faces and God's Eye, and obviously Sansa, her red hair and connection to Lady Lothston, House Whent through her Tully genes, bat symbolism, etc.

It will be the new seat of House Stark - royal house of Westeros when it is all said and done. Just wait and see.

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3 hours ago, Khal Pod said:

No, I don't think Arya fell asleep during the hour of the wolf, because isn't the hour of the nightingale right before dawn or dawn itself? How can Ned keep his vigil alone all through the dark hours if Arya was awake until the hour of the wolf?

Sansa feel asleep "as the moon rose," so around 8-9 pm.  Arya feel asleep several hours later.

The hour of the wolf begins around 2-3 am.  In real life, the hour of the wolf encompasses the darkest part of night (i.e. 2-3am) until dawn; however, the hour of the nightingale in ASoIaF appears to cover anytime concerning dawn approaching, so the hour of the wolf in ASoIaF occurs only during the darkest part of night.  Therefore, if Arya feel asleep at the beginning of the hour of the wolf, this would allot Ned plenty of time to pray while his daughters slept.  There's also the connection to hours of the night that I made in a previous comment:

On 5/3/2016 at 8:11 AM, Isobel Harper said:

I recently came upon a quote, possibly connected to what time Arya falls asleep.  It occurs during her escape of Harrenhal:

Gendry nodded. Hot Pie said, "Hoot like an owl when you want us to come."

"I'm not an owl," said Arya. "I'm a wolf. I'll howl."

 

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Maybe I need to do some reading on other theories connected to this because I think I'm missing the significance. Why do you think that passage you quoted is confirming the hour Arya fell asleep? To me, it seems more like an example of Arya's family pride than anything else. Is this just meant to be an example of Sansa and Arya favoring Cat (whents) and Ned respectively? Or is there more to it?

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14 hours ago, Khal Pod said:

Maybe I need to do some reading on other theories connected to this because I think I'm missing the significance. Why do you think that passage you quoted is confirming the hour Arya fell asleep? To me, it seems more like an example of Arya's family pride than anything else. Is this just meant to be an example of Sansa and Arya favoring Cat (whents) and Ned respectively? Or is there more to it?

It's another connection between Sansa and bats via hour of the bat.  And Arya is (still) connected to wolves via hour of the wolf. 

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On Monday, 14 March 2016 at 9:09 AM, bemused said:

I always felt the Mad Mouse was on Sansa's side, somehow, with the old gods' colours on his shield...

This guy reckons that he's Howland Reed.

On Sunday, 1 May 2016 at 9:10 AM, The Fattest Leech said:

You smart readers here will know the reference to the star and how it is linked to Sandor at this point in the story.

...you mean a seven-pointed star?

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This is an elaboration on a post I made in the Merging Storylines thread in the Winds of Winter forum :

I have this thing.. a feeling, a suspicion, a what-have-you .. about the old magical bloodlines coming together to stand against the magic of the Others. And it dovetails with a thing I think GRRM is doing where the matrilineal bloodline can have equal importance with the bloodline of the father (or more in some cases) ...Jon is just the most obvious case,  because R+L=J has been discussed and delved into for so long. 

(Digression I: This has become an obvious political reality {not magical}  in the case of the Mormonts, since Jorah is exiled and seems unlikely to have any progeny. I've also been of the opinion for a number of years, that Tormund was Maege's choice of partner .. she raised the daughters, Tormund raised the sons. (but in spite of Tormund and Alysanne's jokes, I don't think that the Mormonts are actually skinchangers.) So for Maege's generation and Alysanne's at least, the Mormont line is continuing openly through it's daughters.)

Anyway, Sansa : I said in my earlier posts that it's possible that some Lothston blood has crept down through the Whents. (The Whents participated in extinguishing the Lothstons, though they were Lothston servants, yet may carry a fair amount of Lothston blood in their veins.)... In the present, Tywin's forces pushed Shella Whent out of her seat and gave it over to a string of horrible commanders, using it as a base to rape and pillage throughout the Riverlands - eventually granting it to LF (who, to date has no intention of going there). .. but it actually could be Sansa's by right of blood. She could wind up there, depending on what happens in the north, whether Edmure is ever re-instated at Riverrun, and if the Lannisters' b.s. grants are ever declared invalid. I doubt she would want to take it or to live there, as things stand now, but I can imagine scenarios where she might.

I'm interested in the allegiances of her past relations and possible past relations. - Whents - supported Rhaegar over Aerys, but still Targaryen loyalists.. Lothstons - Debatable. Targaryen supporters after Manfryd's brief support for, then betrayal of  Daemon Blackfyre (if he wasn't a Targ. catspaw all along).

(Digression II: So much of this backstory is shrouded, I'm reserving judgement on just how mad Danelle Lothston was, and whether, or to what degree, she was using the "black arts"...I think it's more than likely that we can rule out eating children and bathing in blood... We saw her with Bloodraven ,  also branded a sorcerer, in TMK. Some of what was said of him is true, some probably not. Maekar had a prickly relationship with Bloodraven , and perhaps KIng and Hand weren't always in agreement. TWoIaF tells us Maekar thought Danelle, with her madness and sorcery was "causing chaos". Causing political chaos might have been the important bit in Maekar's eyes.. At the same time, BR, as Maekar's hand, would likely have known the truth of the matter... I feel there are some important details hidden in the murk (probably involving Blackfyres).. 

We don't know how close to the year of Maekar's death (233) the Lothstons were extinguished, but that, of course, is the year that Bloodraven executed Aenys Blackfyre and was subsequently sent to the wall (by Aegon). Being a BR afficionado myself, and believeing he probably was acting in the interest of the realm, I wonder if Aenys hadn't made some previous overtures to Maekar and how Maekar came to view Danelle as a source of chaos in the first place... I wonder if there isn't some cause and effect there... (Should we suspect Aenys = anus?)

In the present timeline, BR is acting to support, recruit and watch over Starks, notably Bran and Jon (in whom the Stark and Targaryen bloodlines come together) but there are hints of his vigilance around Arya and Sansa as well (all of the Dontos/Sansa interactions in the KL godswood... and more in the case of Arya. I particularly love that when Arya catches the tomcat/Balerion/Bloodraven, she kisses him between the eyes before she lets him go - right where the 3rd eye would be.))

Stay with me, I think this is going somewhere...;) ...  I've seen quite a bit of speculation to the effect that Sansa could be destined to marry Aegon, that somehow LF, through various machinations, would hope to interest him in Sansa on the strength of Sansa's claim to WF.. or something to that effect, merging those two storylines. If Aegon is any kind of a Targaryen at all (and he may not be), I think he'd be a Blackfyre, so I'd think BR would be working to influence Sansa to avoid this, or to intercede in any way he could.

Sansa, herself, doesn't want to be wanted for her claim alone, and with the  political education she's been getting, would be keenly aware that if her claim to WF was upheld, WF would pass through her to her husband's family. I'm very sure there's enough Stark left in her to recoil at the idea .(I'll come back to this later.)

Besides, I think the Riverlands will be calling to her. There's a lot, personally, for her to resolve, and lessons to be learned there... Sandor, LSH, (and, wild surmise, perhaps a bond with Dog?) There's maybe news of Arya through Gendry and certainly through Sandor... maybe even meeting Arya there, while Brienne and possibly Jaime, could learn the truth about Joffrey's death from her... lots of possibilities for important meetings. And there would be ways to put Sansa's growing political savvy to use.

I love the Blackfish, and he can attract followers, but he's really best as a general and wise older advisor. Men with brains, strategically placed, may be able to wrest RR away from Emmon Frey. Edmure may be rescued. .. He hasn't been shown to be the sharpest tool in the box, or shown very great promise as a leader, however, he could keep the Tully line going. ...Blackfish hasn't met Sansa, but he would know her, because as we've been told repeatedly, she is so like Cat. He's someone who could honestly love her, in a healthy way, for that resemblance. He didn't always agree with Cat, but showed fondness when speaking to her... (Petyr's Cat/Sansa transference is definitely unhealthy. .. Ideally, I think he would have wanted to complete the ruin of Cat and her family himself, and have wanted her know it before she died.. and I think that twisted love/hate motivation would carry through to Sansa.)

So, Petyr  carried out a Bael-ish (but not very Bael-like) abduction of Sansa (not really a rescue, because he set it up so that she would be incriminated in Joffrey's death). My strong suspicion is that The Mad Mouse is with her to carry out a more benevolent abduction/rescue.

(Digression III : I doubt Shadrich was telling Brienne the truth about himself.  He says his motive in searching for her is "Love." and adds, "Love of gold" (The gold offered by Varys).. I think the first may be true ( especially if he's connected to Shella Whent or if he is Howland Reed), but "Love of gold" is false.
To me, he was clearly sounding her out..n.b. she carried a shield bearing the Lothston bat, at the time.. His offer to share the spoils was odd. Why should he, when they had just met? Why share, if his ransom had ruined him? However,  his offer alerted Brienne to the fact that Varys had offered a reward (meaning more competitors for her), and made her more wary going forward. Depending on whether he has some connection to BR/ the old gods / green men, he may know quite a lot about Brienne, though she knows nothing about him....)

I've no idea if Ser Morgoth and Ser Byron are his henchmen, partners, or each hired by LF under separate circumstances, but if Shadrich followed the same path as Brienne for a time , he would have passed the Quiet Isle ..and Ser Morgoth has been suggested by some to be Elder Brother... I have no hints for Ser Byron, yet.

If Shadrich does pull it off  - depending on whether Petyr is alive or dead, how would Shadrich get Sansa away? 1) .. perhaps through the mountains.. Timmett son of Timmett would know Sansa (esp. if she used her own hair colour) and he might allow passage because she's Tyrion's wife....   2.) Bronze Yohn has ports of his own, and might help them escape that way, avoiding Gulltown (esp. if he recognised her and thought she was on her way to the Blackfish ...?). They could take a boat/ship from there to Saltpans, or maybe even Maidenpool, depending on what happens there after the departure of Tarly..

Two obscure little clues.. When Sandor and Arya are headed for the RW, Sandor diguises them as farmers serving "Old Lady Whent" ... In AFFC, Petyr tells Sansa, "Lady Whent's died as well, I hear." ... but he could be wrong. I think that hearsay is the only report we have of her death, and she's listed in the appendix as the "dispossessed Lady of Harrenhal." ..Shadrich could be her agent, if she's alive. (His "orange" hair could be dyed as a symbol of his service to her, or harking back to "Mad Dannelle".)

Random thoughts : If BR has been watching the girls through "Balerion" in KL, maybe we're seeing a different kind of "Cat and Mouse" game, where the cat and mouse are on the same side. .. I've considered Shadrich as Howland in the past, and I'm open to it, but hold back a little, because there's so much speculation about Howland being active in other storylines (and no, I don't mean the HS).. Unlike BR, HR can't be everywhere at once, switching location by switching focus. 

Assuming Sansa makes it to the Riverlands, how would she survive? Incognito, of course. ..The BWB needs redeeming, thanks to LSH.. Whatever is left of Cat may not want to exist, as long as she can see even one of her daughters (maybe both) before finally shuffling off... At least one faction of the BWB is currently led by a woman in a hooded cloak. This could be a disguise in waiting for Sansa.

For a complete flight of fancy : While all this was rattling around in my head I could suddenly see Sansa and the BWB a la Snow White and the 7 dwarfs (she already has a dwarf association)..living with them in the forest, making them bathe more often and comb their hair and beards, while the evil Queen Cersei searches for her high and low.. :D...(Too much?)

I need to to start cutting this epic short, but  there are a few more angles I want to mention. - The Riverlands came to support Robb through Cat. We see Robb and the Blackfish are of the same mind regarding Edmure's ill-advised skirmish at RR...  If Robb has designated Jon as his heir, even though the Blackfish may trust Robb's judgement (and later misrepresent his sentiments to Jaime), the Riverland lords don't know Jon and he has no Tully blood..  But Sansa, with Stark, Tully and Whent blood, could become a figurehead that creates that link (Riverlands to north/Jon) anew, and brings the disparate factions of the BWB together again... I can't think Bonnifer Hasty will be able to carry out his plans, and after what the small folk around Harrenhal have been through, those that are left around the God's Eye must look back fondly to Shella Whent, and be ready to cleave to her successor by blood.

Sansa's wolf blood has been calling to her, too.. building snow WF ... in the wind as she descends fom the Eyrie ... and she has been thinking of Jon with new understanding. At the same time, it's possible nothing will be resolved regarding her marriage until Tyrion arrives with Dany (as I'm sure he will). 

I don't know if she'll be a queen - I certainly don't think she'll be the queen of (poor,doomed) Aegon. But.. She could be placed to be a major diplomatic buffer between Dany, the Riverlands, the Vale and the North and has been developing the skill to do the job well. 

A few last imaginings : If there is to be another literal enactment of the maiden (Sansa) slaying the giant(Petyr) in a castle built of snow... With both of them being connected to Harrenhal, it could take place there, not in WF. In a heavy snowfall, any castle can look like it's made of snow, and snow is falling in KL.

Earlier, I said that I don't think Sansa would really want WF to pass to some other House through her marriage. Harrenhal would be another matter. Shella Whent is/was the last of her line. Sansa is a Stark, but if she married, as lady of Harrenhal, there would be no question of dispossessing the rest of her family of their hereditary home. 

This is the one scenario where I can see the possibility of an eventual marriage with Sandor working out really satisfactorily.. As Lady, there would be no one to object to her choice. There would already be blood ties to RR. If her situation re: Tyrion is resolved fairly, there could be amicable relations with him. I don't think Sandor would ever consider taking up his family lands, very possibly meaning being back as a Lannister bannerman ... not to mention the horrific personal memories - his own maiming and the tragic suspicious death of his sister (perhaps even the hunting accident death of his father)...Nor would Sansa want to be under direct command of any Lannister again. ...And like Jaime dreaming of earning the sobriquet "Goldenhand" rather than "Kingslayer", Sandor might dream of earning a new reputation in the RL, erasing the horrors done by his impersonators. .. I don't know, something like.. the Loyal Hound .. the Good Dog (tee hee) .. "Wolfhound" ?.. you get the idea.

Mind you this could work out at Riverrun, too, but it would require the deaths of Edmure and his baby with Roslin.. In case Edmure should hold RR and Sansa should hold HH, whoever has eventual Rule - Dany , or Dany/Tyrion , or Dany/Tyrion/Jon - would probably be wise to make the Paramountcy hers, not Edmure's.

(gasp) I think that's it...

ETA: NO, there's stuff I forgot...I'll have to come back.

Edited by bemused

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