The Walking Dead Season 6: "Who's Neegan?" (no comics spoilers)

[MisterOJ]

I don't think discussing diversity on TV is a bad thing at all. I do think that slamming a show that is (for the most part) getting it right with regards to diversity for not being diverse enough is problematic. Look, sometimes you just have to pick your battles. If you want to get up in arms about some popular show that has a mostly white cast and only token minority representation; that's great. That's the sort of discussion that still needs to happen today. But when you keep harping on a show that is doing a pretty good job with being diverse - you come off looking like a whiner that will never be happy.

Your words that started this whole debate were, "the writers have set it up so that there is a pretty high probability of one of the few characters of color being killed off.  Sigh." But, it's been pointed out time and again that there is a high percentage of characters of color on this show and most of them are shown as being very capable and admirable. The only one that hasn't been shown in a favorable light is Father Gabriel, and he got a nice redemption story arc and now is seen as much more capable than he was before. 

With regard to having significant characters of color, TWD is doing a pretty darn good job. I don't know how you can argue that. Are you even disputing that at this point, or are you just arguing for the sake of being argumentative?

[Myrddin]

I can't believe I'm wading into this...

To me, the true sign of diversity on a show is the fact that every character regardless of race/creed/orientation is given a balanced characterization beyond that one aspect that marks them as diverse.

True diversity means no character is identified as "the __fill_in_the_blank__ character."

Denise wasn't "the lesbian".  She was the doctor, or more accurately, the one who stepped up and became the doctor when needed. She was caring. She was reliable. She was slightly over weight. She wore glasses. She was shy and insecure, but had a tough core underneath all that. Yes, she was also a lesbian who displayed a touching affection and love for Tara.

Her death was tragic because she was all of those things and I enjoyed watching her grow a little bit every week. 

All the characters on this show represent the broken and flawed nature of humanity.  Skin color and orientation is only one aspect what makes them human. Fixating on that one aspect of diversity feels counter-productive.

[Castel]

I would be much more sympathetic to the argument if it was back when a new black character showed up whenever an old one died. Which happened in the space of a season and was probably a coincidence, though it was their fault that it was T-Dog or bust.

But Denise always seemed like a lesbian who died and not the buried lesbian. 

[Dr. Pepper]

9 minutes ago, MisterOJ said:

I don't think discussing diversity on TV is a bad thing at all. I do think that slamming a show that is (for the most part) getting it right with regards to diversity for not being diverse enough is problematic. Look, sometimes you just have to pick your battles. If you want to get up in arms about some popular show that has a mostly white cast and only token minority representation; that's great. That's the sort of discussion that still needs to happen today. But when you keep harping on a show that is doing a pretty good job with being diverse - you come off looking like a whiner that will never be happy.

Your words that started this whole debate were, "the writers have set it up so that there is a pretty high probability of one of the few characters of color being killed off.  Sigh." But, it's been pointed out time and again that there is a high percentage of characters of color on this show and most of them are shown as being very capable and admirable. The only one that hasn't been shown in a favorable light is Father Gabriel, and he got a nice redemption story arc and now is seen as much more capable than he was before. 

With regard to having significant characters of color, TWD is doing a pretty darn good job. I don't know how you can argue that. Are you even disputing that at this point, or are you just arguing for the sake of being argumentative?

Sigh.   Again, broken record here, but it's like saying there is nothing left to discuss about race because we have a black president.  You're entire argument is that there's nothing left to discuss here before this show is better than that show (whatever that show might be).  

Just now, Myrddin said:

I can't believe I'm wading into this...

To me, the true sign of diversity on a show is the fact that every character regardless of race/creed/orientation is given a balanced characterization beyond that one aspect that marks them as diverse.

True diversity means no character is identified as "the __fill_in_the_blank__ character."

Denise wasn't "the lesbian".  She was the doctor, or more accurately, the one who stepped up and became the doctor when needed. She was caring. She was reliable. She was slightly over weight. She wore glasses. She was shy and insecure, but had a tough core underneath all that. Yes, she was also a lesbian who displayed a touching affection and love for Tara.

Her death was tragic because she was all of those things and I enjoyed watching her grow a little bit every week. 

All the characters on this show represent the broken and flawed nature of humanity.  Skin color and orientation is only one aspect what makes them human. Fixating on that one aspect of diversity feels counter-productive.

Just because Denise had some other aspects about her doesn't actually erase the fact that she was a lesbian and that her death was another in a long line of a particularly insensitive trope.  It's not an either/or situation.  She's not either a doctor or a lesbian.  She can be both and discussing her as an LGBT character doesn't nullify the rest of her.  Trust me, I'd be all for discussion about the lack of diversity in the sizes of women's bodies on tv.  Discussing Denise in the context of the sizes of women's bodies doesn't remove her from also being a lesbian character. Cue Mr. OJ coming in to exclaim "but but but, there are TWO overweight women on this show and on that show there aren't any there shouldn't be any commentary on the treatment of overweight women on TWD since they at least have two, body shaming cured!!!!"

5 minutes ago, Castel said:

I would be much more sympathetic to the argument if it was back when a new black character showed up whenever an old one died. Which happened in the space of a season and was probably a coincidence, though it was their fault that it was T-Dog or bust.

But Denise always seemed like a lesbian who died and not the buried lesbian. 

Lesbian character gets shot by stray projectile meant for someone else immediately after declaration of love for their partner...it's basically an homage to the most well known lesbian example of this trope, Tara from Buffy.  

[MisterOJ]

6 minutes ago, Dr. Pepper said:

Sigh.   Again, broken record here, but it's like saying there is nothing left to discuss about race because we have a black president.  You're entire argument is that there's nothing left to discuss here before this show is better than that show (whatever that show might be). 

That's actually not what I'm saying. 

What I'm saying is that you're being disingenuous by claiming that the show has "few characters of color" when that is not actually the case at all. And by doing that, you are being more harmful than helpful. 

[Dr. Pepper]

11 minutes ago, MisterOJ said:

That's actually not what I'm saying. 

What I'm saying is that you're being disingenuous by claiming that the show has "few characters of color" when that is not actually the case at all. And by doing that, you are being more harmful than helpful. 

Perhaps you missed the posts where I conceded that I misspoke on the single particular phrase?  And no, discussing problems with representation is not doing more harm.  What a truly ignorant and bizarre notion. 

You're problem seems to be that I'm not (or at least no longer) going out of my way to give this show brownie points.  I'm not sure why you think I should.  

[Castel]

Oh, I recognized the parallels between Denise and the "bury the gays" thing, which is why I said nothing about it at the time. 

I'm ambivalent on it tbh. I see the parallel but I don't know that it's inherently problematic for a TWD character to die in the stupid way that seems inherent to the series. Perhaps it should have been avoided, but she does serve an important role and is the most impactful Alexandrian "mook" to kill tbh. 

 

As criticism I would say that it stands on much stronger ground than "someone might die next episode".

[MisterOJ]

1 minute ago, Dr. Pepper said:

Perhaps you missed the posts where I conceded that I misspoke on the single particular phrase?  And no, discussing problems with representation is not doing more harm.  What a truly ignorant and bizarre notion. 

I must have missed that post. Apologies.

And the reason why it can be harmful in some cases, is best summed up by a pretty basic metaphor. Ever heard the one about the boy who cried wolf? If you keep crying under-representation in cases when it doesn't actually exist, people will cease to listen to you in cases where it does actually exist.

[Free Northman Reborn]

Screw representation.

There, I said it.

Counting the number of characters that meet X,Y or Z criteria means you likely suffer from some type of obsessive disorder.

Must we now think that Tara is unkillable else the LGBT activists are going to have a fit? Screw that. Let them have their fit. The majority of viewers don't give a shit.

I guess Abraham is safe next week too, else the redhead quota gets upset.

 

[Dr. Pepper]

1 hour ago, MisterOJ said:

I must have missed that post. Apologies.

And the reason why it can be harmful in some cases, is best summed up by a pretty basic metaphor. Ever heard the one about the boy who cried wolf? If you keep crying under-representation in cases when it doesn't actually exist, people will cease to listen to you in cases where it does actually exist.

Lol, if I had a nickel for every time I heard this when someone speaks about diversity and representation and other race issues.  It's a favorite argument people like to give Black Lives Matter and their allies.  

You claiming that problems with under-represented characters don't exist doesn't actually make it true.  ffs, I went into pretty specific detail about the LGBT characters, but apparently in your book it doesn't count because there are X number of gay characters regardless of whether or not they are given equal treatment, development or even provided screen time.  You've basically done the same thing about the characters of color without me even having gone down the list of the problems I find in their representation.  Everything from lack of screen time to lack of development to several women of color spending the past and/or most of this half season in service to a man's story and so on.  

 

16 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

The majority of viewers don't give a shit.

And this is why it should be discussed and why better representation should be encouraged, because it's pretty terrible that the majority of viewers are privileged enough to not give a shit.  Seriously, could you imagine spending your entire life rarely seeing yourself well represented on tv?  Do you think you'd care if your daughters rarely ever saw a white person, or a straight person, or a christian when they watched something?  Would you care if a rather significant percentage of characters who represented your daughters were insensitive tropes or cliches, rarely given screen time, or portrayed in extremely negative ways?  You being on the rather extreme end of bigotry on this forum, I'd think you'd care a lot.  

[Free Northman Reborn]

19 minutes ago, Dr. Pepper said:

And this is why it should be discussed and why better representation should be encouraged, because it's pretty terrible that the majority of viewers are privileged enough to not give a shit.  Seriously, could you imagine spending your entire life rarely seeing yourself well represented on tv?  Do you think you'd care if your daughters rarely ever saw a white person, or a straight person, or a christian when they watched something?  Would you care if a rather significant percentage of characters who represented your daughters were insensitive tropes or cliches, rarely given screen time, or portrayed in extremely negative ways?  You being on the rather extreme end of bigotry on this forum, I'd think you'd care a lot.  

Funnily enough, as of 2015 roughly 1 in 4 Americans identified as Evangelical Christians. You don't see me moaning because 26% of the cast aren't openly Evangelical born again Christians. And if some of them are, they clearly keep it in the closet, something which you would no doubt moan about if a gay character wasn't expressing his identity openly in the Show.

So no, I'm not jumping up and down in a fit when the character breakdown of the Show does not represent all groups exactly according to their percentage of the demography. Instead, I focus on the drama of the Show, rather than trying to socially engineer the cast to achieve some activist goal all the time.

 

[Lord Syv Aldlark]

On 3/15/2016 at 10:19 AM, kairparavel said:

Why can't I delete this quote when I reply on my phone?

Blacks, gay's, Asians, etc.. all plot armored please. We need to ensure we don't use any trope ever.

[Lord Syv Aldlark]

Also maybe the mistake you're making the mistake of letting the skin color of a character be the one you identify with.

 

I liked Tyrese the most. Identified with him the most.

[First of My Name]

5 hours ago, Dr. Pepper said:

Is this the version of "I'm not racist, i have a black friend'?  You do get that being happy with who you are really says nothing about one's level of ignorance, right?  I'm happy with who I am, doesn't mean I'm not ignorant about any number of things.  Discussing diversity just doesn't happen to be one of those things.

You and your ilk can claim comments or discussions about diversity on tv are out of context all you want, it doesn't make it true.  Having three gay characters means very little when those gay characters are either pushed to the background or not even shown, or else are given plots that fulfill some of the most despised tropes in tv land.  Similar arguments can be made about the characters of color.  

As a homosexual, I don't really get what you're complaining about. This show is doing a better job than 90% of the shows out there when it comes to diversity. I liked Denise, thought she was an enjoyable character, and was glad that she was LGBT. And I was sad and surprised when she died, but in no way did I consider it problematic in any of the ways you describe. By your logic I could say that a lot of straight characters have died and that the show must therefore have a problem with straight people.
Gay characters should be treated as just that - characters who happen to be gay. When we start giving them special treatment in order to preserve the show's image as LGBT-friendly - or black, Asian, whatever - is the day I quit watching. Diversity is important. but the story itself remains the most important factor when determining a show's quality. (And even if it wasn't I'd still be satisfied with TWD's current amount of gay characters. Percentage-wise I think they do pretty alright).
Having three gay characters doesn't mean very little when that's a group of people that is generally lacking in representation in this medium. TWD represents them, and that matters more to me than if they the showrunners were to push them to the forefront simply because they are gay,

[Macklunkey]

It's disappointing that there are no Scottish people in the show. We generally make good engineering types.

[Dr. Pepper]

Whoa, I'm completely and utterly shocked a bunch of people totally miss the point.  

[S John]

4 minutes ago, Dr. Pepper said:

Whoa, I'm completely and utterly shocked a bunch of people totally miss the point.  

I don't think anyone is not understanding your point, they just don't agree.  

[Kindly Old Man]

28 minutes ago, First of My Name said:

As a homosexual, I don't really get what you're complaining about. This show is doing a better job than 90% of the shows out there when it comes to diversity. I liked Denise, thought she was an enjoyable character, and was glad that she was LGBT. And I was sad and surprised when she died, but in no way did I consider it problematic in any of the ways you describe. By your logic I could say that a lot of straight characters have died and that the show must therefore have a problem with straight people.
Gay characters should be treated as just that - characters who happen to be gay. When we start giving them special treatment in order to preserve the show's image as LGBT-friendly - or black, Asian, whatever - is the day I quit watching. Diversity is important. but the story itself remains the most important factor when determining a show's quality. (And even if it wasn't I'd still be satisfied with TWD's current amount of gay characters. Percentage-wise I think they do pretty alright).
Having three gay characters doesn't mean very little when that's a group of people that is generally lacking in representation in this medium. TWD represents them, and that matters more to me than if they the showrunners were to push them to the forefront simply because they are gay,

I don't think you get it. Your lived experience doesn't matter. Dr. Pepper knows better than you, and will tell you how you should feel. Probably you've internalized heteronormativity just like I've internalized racism. We should marvel at her amazing sensitivity, and thank her for her tireless work in these forums, which we could never do for ourselves.

[First of My Name]

Just now, Kindly Old Man said:

I don't think you get it. Your lived experience doesn't matter. Dr. Pepper knows better than you, and will tell you how you should feel. Probably you've internalized heteronormativity just like I've internalized racism. We should marvel at her amazing sensitivity, and thank her for her tireless work in these forums, which we could never do for ourselves.

I see now how wrong I was, thank you for setting me straight... or gay, or... well you know.

[Dr. Pepper]

4 minutes ago, S John said:

I don't think anyone is not understanding your point, they just don't agree.  

Right, they don't agree because they refuse to acknowledge there is even an issue of representation on tv, or they fall back on the absurdly ignorant "but other shows do worse".  Of course, one tries to discuss diversity on those 'other shows', the response is exactly the same.  

3 minutes ago, Kindly Old Man said:

I don't think you get it. Your lived experience doesn't matter. Dr. Pepper knows better than you, and will tell you how you should feel. Probably you've internalized heteronormativity just like I've internalized racism. We should marvel at her amazing sensitivity, and thank her for her tireless work in these forums, which we could never do for ourselves.

Sarcasm, but what you're saying is actually true.