The Walking Dead Season 6: "Who's Neegan?" (no comics spoilers)

[Rhollo]

Came here just to see that @Pecan already pointed out, what I was gonna say. I had the same conclusion with the shots from inside the container.

If the victim wasn't one of the people inside, what was the point of these glimpses througout the episode ? It's either a hint or a deliberate misdirection. And the cliffhanger is already pretty awful without throwing red herring into the mix, so I am just gonna assume they dindn't do that.

I am also guessing Glenn as the victim, although my purely logical choice would be Daryl. The POV shots from the container seemed like someone "waking up". Daryl got shot at the end of the previous episode, so it would make sense that he was regaining consciousness while locked up. But of cource, anyone of the other three could have been knocked out at some point after being captured. And also, IIRC Daryl killed most of Negans man, he would be the obvoius choice for revenge (but I admit, it's unclear how/if they could know that)

[Free Northman Reborn]

On to a more general opinion on the current state of the Show.

Frankly, I have reached a low point in my enthusiasm for it. All the complaints I have had about the Show previously have just been magnified a thousand fold in the finale.

And worst of all, I don't actually like Rick anymore. The reality is that he is a piss poor leader. The writers make him so dumb, and yet they don't seem to agree that they have done so. Driving around in an RV from trap to trap? After the bad guys clearly demonstrated that they are just herding you in a specific direction?

Where are the scouts? (Feels like this is the oldest complaint I have). How the hell have this group of retards survived this long?

And frankly, Rick is mentally fragile. He swings from uber confidence to utter disintegration depending on his situation. There is no calmness or resolve under pressure. Heck, Abe was by far the most impressive guy when staring death in the face at the end there. Ricky boy had tears in his eyes. AGAIN. And shocking disbelief at his world collapsing all around him.

He went crazy at least twice before when the pressure of the Apocalypse grew too much for him. He looks about to collapse into his inner mind's little hidey hole again. He is NOT the leader the writers try to make him out to be.

Heck, Glenn looked more ferocious than Rick in that final scene. So did Daryl.  Rick just looked lost, devastated and at the point of tears.

Loser.

[Castel]

30 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

On to a more general opinion on the current state of the Show.

Frankly, I have reached a low point in my enthusiasm for it. All the complaints I have had about the Show previously have just been magnified a thousand fold in the finale.

And worst of all, I don't actually like Rick anymore. The reality is that he is a piss poor leader. The writers make him so dumb, and yet they don't seem to agree that they have done so. Driving around in an RV from trap to trap? After the bad guys clearly demonstrated that they are just herding you in a specific direction?

Where are the scouts? (Feels like this is the oldest complaint I have). How the hell have this group of retards survived this long?

And frankly, Rick is mentally fragile. He swings from uber confidence to utter disintegration depending on his situation. There is no calmness or resolve under pressure. Heck, Abe was by far the most impressive guy when staring death in the face at the end there. Ricky boy had tears in his eyes. AGAIN. And shocking disbelief at his world collapsing all around him.

He went crazy at least twice before when the pressure of the Apocalypse grew too much for him. He looks about to collapse into his inner mind's little hidey hole again. He is NOT the leader the writers try to make him out to be.

Heck, Glenn looked more ferocious than Rick in that final scene. So did Daryl.  Rick just looked lost, devastated and at the point of tears.

Loser.

What? Glenn was pathetically begging for Maggie's life. Begging, which is doing something but pathetic. 

Rick just got everyone he loved killed. Everyone. He, and Darryl but I guess he was busy being shot, had totally miscalculated and everyone was dead and there was nothing he could do about it. The guilt would eat at anyone. 

The fact that Abraham chose to look badass doesn't really change anything. At that point, it was over. 

No calmness or resolve under pressure? Like when he planned to cut himself free at Terminus despite knowing that, for them to get close enough to use the weapon he'd have to let others die? The whole "I'm going to kill you with the red-handled machete" straight to the face of the cannibal killer threatening to poke Bob's eye out? Him convincing Jenner to let them go while people either fell into despair or went crazy like Shane?

 

I really don't think this particular scene needs to be evidence against him for the rest of the series. 

 

If anything the writers should have written him as being unaware that he was the protagonist earlier. It's not a surprise to expect some sort of heroic stand here, when the point is that there is none, because that's what you usually get

[Free Northman Reborn]

15 minutes ago, Castel said:

What? Glenn was pathetically begging for Maggie's life. Begging, which is doing something but pathetic. 

Rick just got everyone he loved killed. Everyone. He, and Darryl but I guess he was busy being shot, had totally miscalculated and everyone was dead and there was nothing he could do about it. The guilt would eat at anyone. 

The fact that Abraham chose to look badass doesn't really change anything. At that point, it was over. 

No calmness or resolve under pressure? Like when he planned to cut himself free at Terminus despite knowing that, for them to get close enough to use the weapon he'd have to let others die? The whole "I'm going to kill you with the red-handled machete" straight to the face of the cannibal killer threatening to poke Bob's eye out? His plan for the walkers in Alexandria? 

I really don't think this particular scene needs to be evidence against him for the rest of the series. 

 

If anything the writers should have written him as being unaware that he was the protagonist earlier. 

Rick is the leader. He needs to be able to bear the weight of that responsibility. When things go well, and when they go pear shaped.

But he is the type of leader that is inconsistent. Yes, there were times in the past when he was great under pressure. Like the gunfight in the Nebraska bar scene, or at Terminus. But he also falls apart mentally way too often for someone who has to lead his people during the Apocalypse.

"Wait, we can talk about this", is not the response you give to an enemy after you went and killed 30+ of their people - some in their sleep. For the record, I don't condemn the killing of the Saviours in their sleep, but I condemn the lack of understanding of what the implications of that are.

When you kill your enemies in their sleep, you prepare for war. And you act accordingly. You don't throw all caution to the wind to undertake reckless endeavours, only to then hope for mercy from your enemy when things go bad. No, you prepare for total war, which is kind of obvious after the killing of enemy soldiers in their beds.

Rick should have paid the price for his mistakes many times before. But he escapes each time thanks to poor writing and the need for drama.

The first time you drive an RV up to a bunch of armed guys blocking the road, and your first warning of this trap is seeing those guys in the road, you should already pay the ultimate price. It is only thanks to Negan's mercy (or rather, ulterior motives) that all of the occupants of the RV weren't dead already when they came across the first roadblock. Because they had zero knowledge of whether the woods on both sides were not filled with enemy machine gunners, snipers, bazooka men, and genadiers.

In this world, driving up an unknown country road is no different to driving a US Humvee through the Syrian or Iraqi countryside. Just blundering blindly from your hometown to your destination is beyond idiocy. Rick has been made stupid by the writers. And the death of only one of his people is actually him getting off lightly for this stupidity. They should all have been dead by now.

[Castel]

1 minute ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Rick is the leader. He needs to be able to bear the weight of that responsibility. When things go well, and when they go pear shaped.

But he is the type of leader that is inconsistent. Yes, there were times in the past when he was great under pressure. Like the gunfight in the Nebraska bar scene, or at Terminus. But he also falls apart mentally way too often for someone who has to lead his people during the Apocalypse.

"Wait, we can talk about this", is not the response you give to an enemy after you went and killed 30+ of their people - some in their sleep. For the record, I don't condemn the killing of the Saviours in their sleep, but I condemn the lack of understanding of what the implications of that are.

Right, but this seems like an uncharitable complaint. It's not that Rick doesn't get what's going on, he's just desperate.

Should I blame Glenn, who you held up, for shouting "no" when Negan threatened Maggie? Whose mind will that change? They went through a lot of effort, surely he doesn't think that that'll change work? 

Rick is not unaware of what's happening or confused. Again, he's coming to the realization that everyone he knows might just die then and there. If you don't get some slack for grasping at anything in that moment what do you get slack for? And, tbh, they should have been dead already, so you might as well ask. 

What was he supposed to do? 

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When you kill your enemies in their sleep, you prepare for war. And you act accordingly. You don't throw all caution to the wind to undertake reckless endeavours, only to then hope for mercy from your enemy when things go bad. No, you prepare for total war, which is kind of obvious after the killing of enemy soldiers in their beds.

 

If we're talking about what happened later:

Denise stopped for that Crush can and got popped. Carol ran off like a moron in their time of need. Darryl chased after Dwight and got everyone caught. Maggie got ill (I guess this is reckless :P). 

This is the set of events that led at least half the group to that clearing. It wasn't Rick going "the Saviors are out there, but they're pussies, I'm going out for takeout". 

 

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Rick should have paid the price for his mistakes many times before. But he escapes each time thanks to poor writing and the need for drama.

The first time you drive an RV up to a bunch of armed guys blocking the road, and your first warning of this trap is seeing those guys in the road, you should already pay the ultimate price. It is only thanks to Negan's mercy (or rather, ulterior motives) that all of the occupants of the RV weren't dead already when they came across the first roadblock. Because they had zero knowledge of whether the woods on both sides were not filled with enemy machine gunners, snipers, bazooka men, and genadiers.

In this world, driving up an unknown country road is no different to driving a US Humvee through the Syrian or Iraqi countryside. Just blundering blindly from your hometown to your destination is beyond idiocy. Rick has been made stupid by the writers. And the death of only one of his people is actually him getting off lightly for this stupidity. They should all have been dead by now.

 

Right, but this doesn't change anything. I agree that Rick and co. were basically dead at this point. And yes, they are main characters and have reaped the benefits.

One of the benefits is definitely this "one person" bullshit. What are you talking about? You killed 20 Saviors at least! Negan should kill half of them and then go and take 80% of their ammo and leave them some spears like they're in the Stone Age. But he won't and we know why.

I just don't hold his reaction at the clearing against him. He'd just gone through hours (or an hour, I think Eugene said Hilltop was 23 miles away?) of psychological torture with no release, up until his final hopes were dashed.

This was the moment where Rick realized that he wasn't a TV hero (even though, again, he is cause of the punishment he's getting) and it's great.

As for the scout thing: the thing is; they've actually had it before. But it was Darryl and his bike, and both of those things were fucked. But someone else really could have gone miles ahead in a car or something.

[Free Northman Reborn]

20 minutes ago, Castel said:

Right, but this seems like an uncharitable complaint. It's not that Rick doesn't get what's going on, he's just desperate.

Should I blame Glenn, who you held up, for shouting "no" when Negan threatened Maggie? Whose mind will that change? They went through a lot of effort, surely he doesn't think that that'll change work? 

Rick is not unaware of what's happening or confused. Again, he's coming to the realization that everyone he knows might just die then and there. If you don't get some slack for grasping at anything in that moment what do you get slack for? And, tbh, they should have been dead already, so you might as well ask. 

What was he supposed to do? 

If we're talking about what happened later:

Denise stopped for that Crush can and got popped. Carol ran off like a moron in their time of need. Darryl chased after Dwight and got everyone caught. Maggie got ill (I guess this is reckless :P). 

This is the set of events that led at least half the group to that clearing. It wasn't Rick going "the Saviors are out there, but they're pussies, I'm going out for takeout". 

 

Right, but this doesn't change anything. I agree that Rick and co. were basically dead at this point. And yes, they are main characters and have reaped the benefits.

One of the benefits is definitely this "one person" bullshit. What are you talking about? You killed 20 Saviors at least! Negan should kill half of them and then go and take 80% of their ammo and leave them some spears like they're in the Stone Age. But he won't and we know why.

I just don't hold his reaction at the clearing against him. He'd just gone through hours (or an hour, I think Eugene said Hilltop was 23 miles away?) of psychological torture with no release, up until his final hopes were dashed.

This was the moment where Rick realized that he wasn't a TV hero (even though, again, he is cause of the punishment he's getting) and it's great.

As for the scout thing: the thing is; they've actually had it before. But it was Darryl and his bike, and both of those things were fucked. But someone else really could have gone miles ahead in a car or something.

My criticism goes back farther than that. Back to Rick's decision to get Maggie to Hilltop. It was the wrong decision. Simple as that. It was the wrong strategic move.

And it ties back to this theme the writers are trying to hammer down on us. That as long as "they are together" they can somehow achieve anything. Actually, they can't. Just like Rick's bogus bravado in the container back in Terminus. The Termites were not "screwing with the wrong people". Those "wrong people" would have been dead, no matter how much resolve Rick put into the statement. He was about to be gutted like a pig, along with all his people, despite his "screwing with the wrong people" certainty. Until Carol magically appeared to save them.

Rick didn't do anything - couldn't do anything - until that point. And he had no way of knowing that this would happen. So he was just mouthing empty words.  Same with his statements in this last episode, about them being ok as long as they are together. No, you are not ok, even if you are together, if you go haring across the enemy countryside like a bunch of idiots.

The right call was to not leave Alexandria. And Rick as leader should have made it, and enforced it. And if Maggie had a bad pregnancy, well, it didn't go any better for Lori, did it. That is the reality of the Apocalypse.

 

[Morpheus]

It boggles the mind how this looked like a good idea to everyone from the writers and producers, to AMC, and the cast . Their response has been rather condescending, they seem to genuinely believe the reactions are purely emotional and thus a result of effective storytelling. Unfortunately, they are probably correct in their assumption that October is far enough away that most people will put aside their disappointment and line up for the next bit of hack storytelling with no negative consequences for the show. 

[Spockydog]

5 minutes ago, Morpheus said:

It boggles the mind how this looked like a good idea to everyone from the writers and producers, to AMC, and the cast . Their response has been rather condescending

Gimple defends his shit-sandwich of a cliffhanger while comparing angry fans to children throwing tantrums.

Wanker.

 

[Morpheus]

I saw that. I'd say firing him would be the best first step toward acknowledging how badly they fucked up (it isn't just the finale, the Glenn debacle last year and the Darly shot one episode before show how much he loves gimmicks) but really everyone from Kirkman and the other producers are also to blame. I imagine the average writing session consists of them sitting in a room smelling each others farts and complimenting each other on how brilliant they are, bold and daring indeed.

[dbunting]

To me all signs point to Glen. He killed a human for the first time just a few episodes ago which was a major change for him. There is the whole scene where Maggie is gloomy and cuts her hair off. When asked why she says something like, I need to be ready to move on and do what I need to survive. Then there is the POV from inside the van. It was clearly set up through the entire episode that it was someone in the van looking out. Then as Negan chooses his sacrifice it again goes to POV, which calls back to who was in the van.

I could see it being Darryl, he was shot last time and the POV seemed groggy in the van, and maybe he wants to move on from being Darryl? 

If it is Rosita, or even Michonne, I don't see the impact on the group and Rick like they talked about on the Talking Dead. About how this death was more about the impact it will have on the group going forward. Michonne is one of my favorites but Glen is much more important to the group. He was Rick's first contact, has was the innocent kid who hadn't killed a man. He is an expectant father and married to another key member of the group. IMO his death means more to the group than anyone except Rick.

[Consigliere]

Oh, ffs, I can't believe they actually pulled this shit. Actually... I guess I can believe it. This is what happens when you have a bunch of hacks running things. There were a few decent episodes in the first half of the season and then a few more after midseason. The rest were rubbish. A perfectly asinine way to end a thoroughly mediocre season. Honestly, at this point, I don't even give a shit who got killed. Thanks, wankers.

[Myrddin]

12 hours ago, l2 0 5 5 said:

The ambiguous death is very frustrating. When I think of some of the most memorable deaths in tv history, I think of The Wire, Sopranos, and a few deaths in GoT, etc.  These deaths happen in real time and it takes you by surprise. You're really in that moment watching a character die and it evokes a lot of emotion. The ambiguous death we saw last night won't have that same effect when we find out whom died this coming October. Yeah, that's 7 months from now... At that point it will have lost its intrigue. That's a shame.

Coitus interruptus

 

[Castel]

3 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

My criticism goes back farther than that. Back to Rick's decision to get Maggie to Hilltop. It was the wrong decision. Simple as that. It was the wrong strategic move.

And it ties back to this theme the writers are trying to hammer down on us. That as long as "they are together" they can somehow achieve anything. Actually, they can't. Just like Rick's bogus bravado in the container back in Terminus. The Termites were not "screwing with the wrong people". Those "wrong people" would have been dead, no matter how much resolve Rick put into the statement. He was about to be gutted like a pig, along with all his people, despite his "screwing with the wrong people" certainty. Until Carol magically appeared to save them.

Rick didn't do anything - couldn't do anything - until that point. And he had no way of knowing that this would happen. So he was just mouthing empty words.  Same with his statements in this last episode, about them being ok as long as they are together. No, you are not ok, even if you are together, if you go haring across the enemy countryside like a bunch of idiots.

The right call was to not leave Alexandria. And Rick as leader should have made it, and enforced it. And if Maggie had a bad pregnancy, well, it didn't go any better for Lori, did it. That is the reality of the Apocalypse.

 

But that's not the theme. That's the opposite of the theme. The point is that that is what Rick believed going in. He also believed he would kill more Saviors. Didn't work out did it? 

 

He's been feeling like the shit forever. And now he's realizing: he's not. None of this kumbaya shit matters. They're not the most skilled group, they're not the best group. 

 

The entire episode was about them not being in control. Rick is super confident when he runs into Negan's second in command the first time. Later he crumbles. Eugene tries to make a heroic sacrifice, he's fucked. Carl says he'll never let what happened to Denise happen to anyone else...and there's fuck all he can do as someone is bludgeoned to death. 

 

It seems to me that, if you disliked the Terminus bravado, this is the reaction and realization you'd want. 

[Criston of House Shapper]

Wow, everyone seems to really hate this cliffhanger, but I actually think it was executed quite well, unlike some of the stupid fake-deaths this season.

a) Someone actually died. We don't know who it was, but it happened, so I appreciate them finally killing someone I may care about.

b ) (for some reason this forum transforms b and ) into , which is annoying as hell) If you're going to have a cliffhanger, at least give us some intrigue. Don't give us the old "Will this guy survive or not"-bs because we all know how that turns out (spoiler alert: with the character not dead). This one is more of a guess-who's-dead type of situation, so at least I'm interested to know who got killed because I don't know the answer.

c) The situation the group is in now is really interesting. I don't think this will be resolved quickly like Terminus was, we find ourselves in a situation where our group has to work for someone they loathe and that is probably going to be interesting to watch. I will watch season 7 now because this episode delivered.

If they killed off Rosita though, I'm out, because that would be a total waste. I still would've liked it if Neegan had just killed everyone except Rick, that would've been a cool twist.

[Free Northman Reborn]

32 minutes ago, Castel said:

But that's not the theme. That's the opposite of the theme. The point is that that is what Rick believed going in. He also believed he would kill more Saviors. Didn't work out did it? 

 

He's been feeling like the shit forever. And now he's realizing: he's not. None of this kumbaya shit matters. They're not the most skilled group, they're not the best group. 

 

The entire episode was about them not being in control. Rick is super confident when he runs into Negan's second in command the first time. Later he crumbles. Eugene tries to make a heroic sacrifice, he's fucked. Carl says he'll never let what happened to Denise happen to anyone else...and there's fuck all he can do as someone is bludgeoned to death. 

 

It seems to me that, if you disliked the Terminus bravado, this is the reaction and realization you'd want. 

No, no, no.

The Terminus bravado is appropriate. But it should be backed up by actual skill, foresight and cunning. Our group displays none of that. Just luck (read, the favor of the writers).

In this Apocalyptic world you do need strong, bold, martial leaders. What you don't need, are leaders who act like they are all of that, and think that they are all of that, but in reality they can't back it up because they are dumb as mud.

[Dr. Pepper]

Rick has always been a fairly terrible leader.  Everything he touches turns to shit.  Ignoring how they've written him as a poor long-term leader gets harder with each passing season.  It was nearly comical when Deanna was dying in bed after half her compound had been wiped out and pretending that Rick is this sort of messiah figure and only he could save them.  I couldn't believe the show actually thought the audience would swallow that bullshit.  tbf to the show, a lot of the audience actually does swallow that bullshit, and joyfully.  

If this were a show where the writers paid attention to what they write, the group would definitely no longer be looking to Rick for overall leadership.  They'd probably all be wishing they didn't blindly follow him into murdering a bunch of sleeping people, ending with executing the last survivor without thoroughly interrogating him.  

[Castel]

2 hours ago, Dr. Pepper said:

Rick has always been a fairly terrible leader.  Everything he touches turns to shit.  Ignoring how they've written him as a poor long-term leader gets harder with each passing season.  It was nearly comical when Deanna was dying in bed after half her compound had been wiped out and pretending that Rick is this sort of messiah figure and only he could save them.  I couldn't believe the show actually thought the audience would swallow that bullshit.  tbf to the show, a lot of the audience actually does swallow that bullshit, and joyfully.  

If this were a show where the writers paid attention to what they write, the group would definitely no longer be looking to Rick for overall leadership.  They'd probably all be wishing they didn't blindly follow him into murdering a bunch of sleeping people, ending with executing the last survivor without thoroughly interrogating him.  

Which is why Negan almost certainly didn't kill Rick ("feed his eye to his dad"). He's not gonna have an easy time after all his "we can do it, yes we can!" talk.

 

EDIT: We don't need to go into the Rick thing again. 

[Jack Bauer 24]

8 hours ago, Spockydog said:

Gimple defends his shit-sandwich of a cliffhanger while comparing angry fans to children throwing tantrums.

Wanker.

 

Gimple is a straight coward.

[Morpheus]

Chris Hardwick is blaming the complaints on binge obsessed, low attention span, spoiled modern audiences. Andrew Lincoln has complained that people just don't "get it". Clearly, Gimple must be a genius ushering in a new age of television storytelling.

[Dr. Pepper]

1 hour ago, Castel said:

Which is why Negan almost certainly didn't kill Rick ("feed his eye to his dad"). He's not gonna have an easy time after all his "we can do it, yes we can!" talk.

 

It's laughable to even consider that the show would completely and permanently remove Rick from the position of leadership.  They've never done it before.  They've even gone so far as to have an entire episode devoted to all the characters describing how wonderful their new set up is, how they have food and people working and safe walls and a good council, but they totally still needed Rick at the head of the table for some reason.  

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EDIT: We don't need to go into the Rick thing again. 

lol, sure, let's not get into the main character of the fucking show.  *rolls eyes*