Why did the Others awaken NOW?

[Greywater-Watch]

I do not believe that the awakening or coming-to-move of The Others is caused by any of the events we have witnessed in the books of ASOIAF. I think GRRM has a sort of cycle of on a much larger time-scale in mind.

In "The Hedge Knight" it says: "The summers have been shorter since the last dragon died, and the winters longer and crueler." 

The balance of the seasons thus seems to be linked directly to the existence of the Targaryen dragons. The imbalance started after the Dance of the Dragons, i.e. around 150 AC.

[John Suburbs]

@Mat92 @Lord Varys @rotting sea cow

One thing to keep in mind: while it is extremely likely that the Others are indeed controlling the wights, we've never actually seen this.

In the GoT prologue, the wights are gone by the time Waymar and Co arrive, and then the Others are gone for hours before Waymar rises.

Othor and Jafer rise in Castle Black, but no Others are present (although it is cold)

On the fist, lots of wights, but not one Other sighting.

Outside BR's cave, wights but no Others

and so on...

At best, we have an Other riding a dead horse as it approaches Sam, Grenn and Small Paul, but then the horse just shambles off like any other horse -- no mad desire to kill the living, etc. -- so it is unclear if the Other is controlling the dead horse in any way that is different from controlling a live horse, or that a living man could not have mounted and ridden the dead horse as well.

So again, extremely likely that the wights and Others are in league, but not a slam dunk yet. Could it be that the Others are fleeing south to escape the wights, and whatever is controlling them, as well?

 

[YOVMO]

On March 15, 2016 at 6:05 PM, Masha said:

I don't think it was because dragons died, they died almost 150-200 yrs ago and the Others only appeared within last 20 years?

So I think that the Others have been around for longer than 20 years (Craster has been sacrificing now 3 generations of his sons) but you aren't far off. One idea that I had was that the return of the Others has to do with Torrhen Stark. I am currently of the belief that in order to replay the blood debt of Brandon of the Bloody Blade who killed so many COTF Bran the Builder (his son) made a deal with the COTF. It ended the long night, set some basic ground rules and gave brandon the ability to use some magic to do things like Build the Wall and Winterfell. I think part of that deal was that the line of Brandon, the Kings of Winter and later the Kings in the North, would make an ultimate sacrifice at their death. Normally first men are buried in barrows so they can become part of the weirnet but the KOW were buried on their thrones (their spirits are always described as angry or vengeful) and we know that the sword on their laps hold their souls in. My thought is that they warg the sword and serve eternal prison sentences. This sacrifice saves the entire north.

When Tohren bent the knee to the dragon, however, there were no more kings of winter to make this sacrifice. With Bran the Builder's deal with the COTF broken the magic that was given to him is rescinded. Part of this magic was keeping the structures he build age proof. But look at the wall and the nightfort....they have been going into disrepair as has the first keep of winterfell and the crypts. A quick look at some metal websites shows that steel will decompose in 2-500 years in optimal conditions. Of course, being left out in a crypt is not optimal so the time frame fits with the Conquest. If those swords have decomposed, which is noted several times in the story, then those spirits are released and I think that this is what is responsible for the current situation. The Others are these long contained souls of Kings of Winter. Craster, I believe, gets a pass sacrificing his sons because he is a stark and north of the wall so the king of his own keep as it were...not under the protection of Winterfell which no longer exists.

This is a long shot crackpot tinfoil theory for sure, but I don't see any equally compelling competing theories.

[YOVMO]

3 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

So again, extremely likely that the wights and Others are in league, but not a slam dunk yet. Could it be that the Others are fleeing south to escape the wights, and whatever is controlling them, as well?

I am so fiercely in disagreement with this statement that it is forcing me to stop and think about it. Like I have never even considered the idea that the wights were not the thralls of the Others, hive minded and centrally controlled ala borg. I have to say, this is the first theory in a while that really stopped me in my tracks. It sounds so insane to me that the wights are escaping the others as well.....so insane that i need to seriously think about it. This is a genuinely unexamined idea on my part

[rotting sea cow]

5 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

I don't think it is the dwindling numbers of the Watch, as I don't think the Watch is what stood in their way for all these years. It was the magic of the Wall that held them back. Not the men manning the Wall.

"they cannot pass so long as the Wall stands strong and the men of the Night' s Watch are true"

People need to take these words seriously. There is magic in the NW itself.

5 hours ago, cyberdirectorfreedom said:

So, perhaps they were simply waiting for a winter that might last long enough for them to take over the entire world

There have been certainly many bad winters in the last 8000 years, this one is somehow different.

[Lord Varys]

4 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

So again, extremely likely that the wights and Others are in league, but not a slam dunk yet. Could it be that the Others are fleeing south to escape the wights, and whatever is controlling them, as well?

That makes no sense. The blue light in the eyes of both the Others and the wights essentially confirms the connection, even if you somehow doubt the connection implied in the Prologue. And, you know, there were three horn blows at the Fist, suggesting that there were both Others and wights. The Others had the wights do their dirty work but it is certainly possible that the scouts actually some some Others among the wights.

[Lord Varys]

7 hours ago, Greywater-Watch said:

In "The Hedge Knight" it says: "The summers have been shorter since the last dragon died, and the winters longer and crueler." 

The balance of the seasons thus seems to be linked directly to the existence of the Targaryen dragons. The imbalance started after the Dance of the Dragons, i.e. around 150 AC.

I think that's the best hint that we have at this whole thing so far. The idea would be that the existence of the dragons and Valyrian fire magic acted as a counterweight of sorts to the ice magic of the Others, keeping the icy holocaust away without anybody (but the Others) realizing this.

We know that the existence (and physical closeness of dragons) does have an effect on specific fire magic spells (like the production of wildfire or the tricks of the fire mages in Qarth). Thus it is not far-fetched at all that the presence of dragons in the world (or Westeros) also might have had an effect on the Others and the freak seasons, strengthening summer just as the existence of the Others strengthened winter.

If the creation of the Others is the origin of the freak seasons then their destruction might turn everything back to normal.

[John Suburbs]

22 hours ago, YOVMO said:

I am so fiercely in disagreement with this statement that it is forcing me to stop and think about it. Like I have never even considered the idea that the wights were not the thralls of the Others, hive minded and centrally controlled ala borg. I have to say, this is the first theory in a while that really stopped me in my tracks. It sounds so insane to me that the wights are escaping the others as well.....so insane that i need to seriously think about it. This is a genuinely unexamined idea on my part

 

22 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

That makes no sense. The blue light in the eyes of both the Others and the wights essentially confirms the connection, even if you somehow doubt the connection implied in the Prologue. And, you know, there were three horn blows at the Fist, suggesting that there were both Others and wights. The Others had the wights do their dirty work but it is certainly possible that the scouts actually some some Others among the wights.

 

Well, like I said, the most plausible explanation is that the wights are in fact the thralls of the Others, but since this is Martin, plausible is not certain. Until the end of Storm, the most plausible explanation for Jon Arryn's murder was the Cersei and Jaime did it.

Yes, the blue eyes are certainly intriguing, although many living men have eyes of the same color, but that doesn't mean they are related. The three horns is interesting too, but since there are no horn signals to indicate wights as opposed to walkers, this was the only thing they could do to indicate something other than returning rangers or wildlings. And since no one has ever seen a walker, they probably couldn't make the distinction anyway.

I'm sorry if I threw your perceptions out of whack, I've just always though it odd that, five novels into the series, we have yet to see a wight and a walker together.

 

[Illyrio Mo'Parties]

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

...five novels into the series, we have yet to see a wight and a walker together.

 

Didn't any NW-men see such at the Fist?

Also, the wildlings seem to think the one controls t'other. (Not t'Other, mind.)

[Masha]

22 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I think that's the best hint that we have at this whole thing so far. The idea would be that the existence of the dragons and Valyrian fire magic acted as a counterweight of sorts to the ice magic of the Others, keeping the icy holocaust away without anybody (but the Others) realizing this.

We know that the existence (and physical closeness of dragons) does have an effect on specific fire magic spells (like the production of wildfire or the tricks of the fire mages in Qarth). Thus it is not far-fetched at all that the presence of dragons in the world (or Westeros) also might have had an effect on the Others and the freak seasons, strengthening summer just as the existence of the Others strengthened winter.

If the creation of the Others is the origin of the freak seasons then their destruction might turn everything back to normal.

The book starts with what is described as one of the longest summers on record comes to an end. That doesn't really correspond to the "summers getting shorter" part of the quote

On 1/22/2017 at 4:15 PM, rotting sea cow said:

"they cannot pass so long as the Wall stands strong and the men of the Night' s Watch are true"

People need to take these words seriously. There is magic in the NW itself.

There have been certainly many bad winters in the last 8000 years, this one is somehow different.

First of all, I believe that the Others have always been sort of awake and just passive and content to stand away. But recently something had changed.

From what I understand, the Long Night happened first, after it ended, Brandon the Builder built the Wall to separate the Others from other lands, and on the Wall itself Night Watch been established.  Afterwards, we still get reports of incidents of Others happening again and again, especially in Nights Watch songs of Night King and his Queen, who almost certainly was the Other female. But nothing on the current scale that happening now. Furthermore, at this time Valyria does not exist but Dragons do, although untamed by Humans. Furthermore, the Wildlings continue to multiply and are definately far more numerous that they are now. Still Others do not react too much. But they are there and some Wildings sacrifice to them - ala Crestor.   Then the Valyria falls, Dragons die, Kings of Winter become Kings of the North and then Wardens of the North. The Others do not react. 

The way it is described, it took the Others just couple of years to completely conquer the land beyond the Wall, why would they wait for 200 years or so before attacking? Not rebirth of dragons because the Others started before Dany's dragons hatched, perhaps their resurgence awakened them too?

I see two people here - Bloodraven and Mance. Whatever Mance says, I believe that the Others were already attacking before he starting digging up graves and trying to find the Horn of Jaramun. Possibly because he already was desperate. Now, Bloodraven, its a different story. He had enough magic and know-how to disturb whatever balance of power lay beyond the Wall. Perhaps he experimented with something he shouldn't have and provoked the Others attack on mankind. And he is not really a sort-of-good guy, Based on Euron's ravings, Bloodraven had some initial contact with him like he did with Bran, and Euron turned out for the worse  

Then the thing about Bloodraven and him going the Children of the Forest and linking to weirwood tree sounds as much as sacrifice and payment for his sins to them as much as the move to gain knowledge/power and extend his life.

[John Suburbs]

4 hours ago, Illyrio Mo'Parties said:

Didn't any NW-men see such at the Fist?

Also, the wildlings seem to think the one controls t'other. (Not t'Other, mind.)

Not that I recall. Sam remembers fire arrows being launched and some cheers as the wights catch fire, but no walker sightings that I'm aware of. His messages to Castle Black refer to wights attacking at the fist and wights all around us, but no mention of walkers.

I think everyone assumes that walkers and the wights are in league, including the historical records and Old Nan's tales. It's just that we have not actually seen this yet.

[The Hammer of Justice]

My bet is: The death of the dragons caused the Others to wake

[Lord Fauntleroy]

Plot contrivance 

[Red Man Racey]

On ‎1‎/‎22‎/‎2017 at 6:57 PM, Lord Varys said:

I think that's the best hint that we have at this whole thing so far. The idea would be that the existence of the dragons and Valyrian fire magic acted as a counterweight of sorts to the ice magic of the Others, keeping the icy holocaust away without anybody (but the Others) realizing this.

We know that the existence (and physical closeness of dragons) does have an effect on specific fire magic spells (like the production of wildfire or the tricks of the fire mages in Qarth). Thus it is not far-fetched at all that the presence of dragons in the world (or Westeros) also might have had an effect on the Others and the freak seasons, strengthening summer just as the existence of the Others strengthened winter.

If the creation of the Others is the origin of the freak seasons then their destruction might turn everything back to normal.

I've seen this idea before but for some reason the way you phrased it made me think of the Courts of Faerie and the way that Summer and Winter are ruled by different courts which hold power during the different seasons. I'm not at all well-versed in these mythologies so I won't speculate, but there could be some connection here. Especially given that GRRM went so far as to describe the Others as similar to the Sidhe.

[rotting sea cow]

On 1/23/2017 at 11:47 PM, Masha said:

I see two people here - Bloodraven and Mance. Whatever Mance says, I believe that the Others were already attacking before he starting digging up graves and trying to find the Horn of Jaramun. Possibly because he already was desperate.

Indeed. Mance becomes the-King-beyond-the-Wall because the wildings started to become desperate and needed some figure who would be able to unify them and get them beyond the Wall. It would be an interesting link between Kings-beyond-the-Wall and higher Others activity.

 

On 1/23/2017 at 11:47 PM, Masha said:

Now, Bloodraven, its a different story. He had enough magic and know-how to disturb whatever balance of power lay beyond the Wall. Perhaps he experimented with something he shouldn't have and provoked the Others attack on mankind. And he is not really a sort-of-good guy, Based on Euron's ravings, Bloodraven had some initial contact with him like he did with Bran, and Euron turned out for the worse  

Maybe BR experimented with something but my guess is that he was the first to become aware of the Others activity and went in the search of CoF, a sort of Last Hero. Or alternatively the CoF contacted him. He has then been actively looking for other greenseers and almost certainly he contacted Euron.

 

[Lord Varys]

5 hours ago, Red Man Racey said:

I've seen this idea before but for some reason the way you phrased it made me think of the Courts of Faerie and the way that Summer and Winter are ruled by different courts which hold power during the different seasons. I'm not at all well-versed in these mythologies so I won't speculate, but there could be some connection here. Especially given that GRRM went so far as to describe the Others as similar to the Sidhe.

Well, if you think about the freak seasons it becomes obvious that what's called a 'season' in Martinworld has essentially nothing to do with nature and everything with magic. Those seasons aren't ruled by astronomic laws and natural causes but they are weirdo weather cycles dictated by magic (because their basically is no natural explanation for this that could make sense).

Now, we have no reason whatsoever to believe the Valyrians or other great fire sorcerers ever attempted to create some eternal summer through magical means but we do know that the freak seasons supposedly are a thing since the Long Night. That connects them with the first attempt of the Others to extinguish all (human) life.

If we assume for a moment that the Children (or whoever created or controls the Others) chose ice magic as their ultimate weapon then it sort of makes sense that the presence of fire magic (i.e. dragons) could keep and artificially created magical eternal winter at bay while the absence of dragons could very well mean the end of all light and warmth.

[Clegane'sPup]

Has anyone else besides myself ever considered that the Others did not awaken but have been living in the Land of Always Winter since their defeat?

Now that the daylight is shorter and the night is longer and the snow has been falling the Others have started moving.

The Thenns left their lands because the Others were on the move. The Thenns are most likely the carriers of the news to the free folk and wildlings?

Winter is coming. Does the cold bring the Others or do the Others bring the cold?

What did Bran see in the heart of winter? What scared the little boy so badly that he woke from his coma?

Why did Mance rally the wildlings and the free folk to band together to try to get south of the Wall if not to get away from a threat?

I'm trying to keep in mind that Martin has been dribbling out pieces of Other information such as what they look like, how to kill them, how they move and when they show up.

If I remember my legends correctly didn't the CotF help stop the Others the first time around?

Questions,questions. I know, I ask a lot of questions.

[John Suburbs]

We should also remember that the title of the series if not "A Song of Ice Against Fire", but a "Song of Ice and Fire".

And what do you get when you mix ice and fire? Water. The Drowned God will rule in the end.

[The Hammer of Justice]

19 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

but we do know that the freak seasons supposedly are a thing since the Long Night

Do we know (referenced in the books) that the balance of seasons was broken after the Long Night? or was it already broken since before the Long Night?

[Lost Umber]

I don't think it's a case of the Others awakening. I suspect they have been in the far North the whole time. Even if they destroy a small remote settlement from time to time, no one is likely to know it was them. It's even more unlikely that anyone at the Wall or south of it is going to hear of it or believe. 

The question is: why are they on the offensive now?  This may be a simple case that the forces which kept the Others in check are all but gone.  The Nights Watch is at it's lowest point and has forgotten much of its history. The COTF are nearly all gone (according to Leaf). Maybe the WW know their opposition is weak. 

Also Mance has been uniting wildlings and preparing for an assault on 7K. The WW may see this a threat or they may be drawn by great masses of living people/fires/animals. in a few skirmishes, they realize that humans don't have swords which can hurt them and are weak. IIRC the Other that killed Waymar Royce paused when Royce drew his sword. Tormund speaks of them nibbling around the edges of Mance's forces  it sounds like the have cautiously testing their opposition for a while.