F1 2016

[williamjm]

1 minute ago, Werthead said:

It's a stretch to say that Verstappen had a famous daddy. When they said Jos Verstappen's son was entering F1, I think the overwhelming reaction was "Who?"

Max didn't even have the most famous father in the Toro Roso team, in terms of sporting fame I'd think multiple world rally champion Carlos Sainz senior would be far ahead of a journeyman F1 driver like Jos.

[red snow]

Unless Verstappen has some secret benefactor paying his way I'm pretty sure he's there by merit. Obviously his dad's connections to motor racing probably helped Max develop from a young age in the lower formulas but there's no doubting he has raw talent.

[Antonius Pius]

I think Hülkenberg is also counting on the reliability of a factory team, and it's paychecks. Force India are better this year, but that means nothing for 2017. And Renault have been focussing on 2017. Force India does not have the budget to do that. I think it's a wise move by Hülkenberg. He's approaching his thirties, isn't he? He doesn't have that many opportunities left (even if he's widely regarded as a good but not great driver).

Jos Verstappen definintely had promise, but he made a few crucial errors, which he never really had an option to redeem himself from at Simtek and Footwork and so on. I think no one can deny the obvious talent Max had demonstrates time and again, even if he is controversial at times (though how much of that is warranted is up for debate). IMO clearly a great driver.

[Antonius Pius]

23 hours ago, williamjm said:

Max didn't even have the most famous father in the Toro Roso team, in terms of sporting fame I'd think multiple world rally champion Carlos Sainz senior would be far ahead of a journeyman F1 driver like Jos.

Don't know about that; Sainz Sr is more well known, but mileage (and connections) in F1 go a long way.

Max definitely had the scouts on his side though.

[StefCurry]

Kvyat wasn't so bad to leave Red Bull...

[Werthead]

Kvyat had a few good performances here and there, like that podium, but Verstappen clearly blew him completely away in terms of quality.

Hulkenberg was seen as the next big thing a few years ago but he's never been able to quite delivery. He had that pole position that he lost (although that was always a big ask) and Perez has comprehensively outshone him with the same equipment and scored those podiums which Hulkenberg has not been able to convert. Perez was also the first choice of Renault and if he'd said yes, Hulkenberg would be staying put.

Perez is clearly eyeing the long game though: if Raikkonen retires after next year or if Vettel completely destroys his Ferrari relationship (entirely possible), Perez is clearly high on their list of people to recruit and I think he'd suit them down to the ground (as is often the case with drivers who couldn't fit in at McLaren).

[StefCurry]

After that he crashed twice in Vettel's car, lol

[red snow]

22 hours ago, Werthead said:

Perez is clearly eyeing the long game though: if Raikkonen retires after next year or if Vettel completely destroys his Ferrari relationship (entirely possible), Perez is clearly high on their list of people to recruit and I think he'd suit them down to the ground (as is often the case with drivers who couldn't fit in at McLaren).

I got the impression he was working well with Ferrari? Is there a case of things being tense? Or are you referring back to the fall-out with Red Bull? At the moment I'd say Ricciardo has a more turbulent time with Red Bull than Vettel and Ferrari. Although Red Bull at least provides Ricciardo with a car that's improving and can win races.

 

[Werthead]

1 minute ago, red snow said:

I got the impression he was working well with Ferrari? Is there a case of things being tense? Or are you referring back to the fall-out with Red Bull? At the moment I'd say Ricciardo has a more turbulent time with Red Bull than Vettel and Ferrari. Although Red Bull at least provides Ricciardo with a car that's improving and can win races.

Vettel has been mouthing off about how much progress they've lost compared to Red Bull and he's also been very critical of team orders. He's also developed a habit of jumping on the radio and blaming everyone around him for his own mistakes. Vettel's petulant whining (always a key character flaw) has been pretty high this year. He's also been outdriven by Raikkonen way too much, given Raikkonen's probably only got a couple of seasons left in the sport and everyone agrees is past his best.

Ferrari said just a few weeks back that Vettel will have to earn any new post-2017 contract, which was widely taken as a warning that he needs to get a grip and start delivering better, at least compared to his team mate, and stop blaming everyone around him when something goes wrong.

[Antonius Pius]

I imagine Vettel's starting to feel the special pressure to deliver results that comes with driving for Ferrari. He had a very good first year, and this year they seem to make no more progress in closing the gap to Mercedes, in contrast to Red Bull. He is likely to have expected a better year than last year, and I suspect he's not doing so well dealing with the disappointment. Plus, he's trying to emulate his idol (Schumacher - whose career at Ferrari wasn't immediately successful either though), and probably feels that's not going well either.

 

I agree his petulance has been dialled up a few notches, in direct relation to the downhill progression of the season. It's like his last year at Red Bull all over again.

[red snow]

Vettel has always been a whiner when things don't go his way. I guess he got used to life being easy over 4 championships.

I still get the impression Raikonnen and Vettel are even over the course of the season. Although it's always better to finish the season strong like Raikonnen has. I'd also say that Vettel is more able of winning while Raikonnen is pretty dependable (a bit like Alonso vs Button). It's actually a good line up that is safer than having a Red Bull set up.

Vettel's pissy behaviour becomes more noticeable when he feels his team-mate is getting the better of him so it's probably all connected.

I think the fact he isn't confirmed as being with ferarri beyond 2017 is as much Vettel keeping his options open as Ferarri. Most teams outside Red Bull and Ferarri would probably consider giving Vettel a drive still. Ferarri's open 2018 driver seats will probably generate a lot of speculation for who will go there. Part of me would like to see Hamilton go there - something that's more likely if he loses this season and has a hard time with Rosberg/new car in 2017.

[Werthead]

It depends. Next year is a lot of new rules so Mercedes may no longer be on top, especially if (as is possible) teams like Williams, Ferrari, McLaren and Renault have have focusing on 2017 for a while. In that case, yes, Hamilton may be tempted by Ferrari and Vettel by Mercedes. Vettel's pissy behaviour is something that other teams are probably aware of and a hard question would have to be asked if he is really better than Rosberg (a couple of years ago I'd have said yes, but this year it's much harder to say).

[StefCurry]

Lewis' race, definitely. No chance for others. pity for Raikkonen and Verstappen

[Werthead]

That was the most surreal retirement for Raikkonen ever.

Rosberg did what he needed to, Hamilton did what he needed to and we'll see how things develop next race. I think Rosberg really needs to ace it and cinch the championship in style rather than eke it out to the last race and win by 2 points or whatever it's going to be.

[StefCurry]

Yes, so sad for Raikkonen.. He is still on fire, anyway.

[Werthead]

Interesting race, spoiled by Sebastian Vettel's petulant, whiny, nasty rant at the end. An argument could be made over whether Verstappen should have had to have given the place back - I'm leaning towards no, since Hamilton didn't have to for doing exactly the same thing (right in front of Verstappen, so he knew about the precedent) and Vettel never got his car alongside Verstappen's - but Vettel telling the race director to go fuck himself was completely and totally unacceptable. I gather he apologised pretty much instantly, but the apology should have been in public and some sort of penalty for unprofessional behaviour was certainly warranted.

I really hope Ferrari kick him to the curb as soon as they can and promote somone like Perez or Bottas up the ranks ASAP.

[StefCurry]

Anyway Vettel was great in Mexico GP.. I really hate Verstappen very much. I understand Sebastian's reaction.

[Werthead]

Vettel just got penalised 10 seconds for his dangerous overtaking of Ricciardo, so now the race has been retconned with Ricciardo third, Verstappen fourth and Vettel fifth, which will piss Vettel off not end. Splendid.

[Antonius Pius]

14 hours ago, StefCurry said:

Anyway Vettel was great in Mexico GP.. I really hate Verstappen very much. I understand Sebastian's reaction.

Rubbish. Vettel is being a whiny little brat. It’s clear he’s frustrated, and using every excuse he can to whine and moan. The cursing and the handwaving were just childish. According to the BBC’s Andrew Benson, Vettel was also accusing Verstappen of brake-testing him – something which Benson seems to accept without question. I think it’s not too far out to suggest that Vettel likes to scapegoat Verstappen because of his frustration. He was whining about Verstappen’s defence for the last two races before Austin, IMO just because he knew there was talk about Verstappen’s moves.

Verstappen is obviously shaking things up, and not excelling in deference for the established order; I agree he had a point about Hamilton not being punished for the same error (turn one). He could have been penalized for running into Rosberg in turn one, though.

[Werthead]

It's also clear that there's a big (and growing) rift between Vettel and Arrivabene. Arrivabene telling Vettel he'll have to earn his seat in 2018 onwards has apparently really pissed Vettel off. Also, Vettel seems to think that he needs to get on the team radio to protest his innocence about every single thing that happens in order to keep the team owners happy. Which only works when it's not his fault. When it is, it just makes him look like an idiot.

I can see Ferrari potentially having to choose between keeping Vettel and Arrivabene. Ross Brawn has rejected their overtures and there really isn't too much other talent around in team management. They could try to woo Christian Horner (and maybe hope to get Adrian Newey) but that would require very deep pockets and likely a cast-iron solid, multi-year contract to allow him to develop the team which Ferrari seems unwilling to do at the moment. For Horner (who's always looked more likely to want to go into F1 corporate then to another team) there's probably nothing too attractive about that offer as long as he's tight with Red Bull.

The issue for Vettel is that he is good, but his performance at Red Bull was based on him understanding the counter-intuitive driving style the car required. The fact that it mostly flummoxed Mark Webber (not a slouch himself) meant that Vettel ended up looking like some kind of prodigy when in reality his driving style was never outstandingly brilliant. Looking at him now, it's hard to say that Perez, Bottas, Hulkenberg or even Grosjean or possibly even Wehrlein wouldn't be doing as well, if not better, in the same car. And it's clear that Hamilton, Alonso, Verstappen, Ricciardo and Rosberg are all significantly better than him in raw talent (Vettel realising that Ricciardo could show him up and win the WC if Red Bull returned to competitiveness was likely key in him leaving).