R+L=?? THE TRUE ANSWER TO THE OLDEST QUESTION

[Wheels]

 

haha im sorry but you sound a little bit like a republican debating climate change

[Ygrain]

5 minutes ago, Wheels said:

Honestly Ygrain, I think you've been on these forums too much and not in the books enough. Most of those arguments you make are about irrelevant points like whether or nor Ned knows about Rhaegar/Mance and the rest are pretty much without substance or quotes to back them so i won't bother going through them all.

Excuse me? And which ones do you need quotes for? I thought you knew the books well enough to know which events I am referencing.

5 minutes ago, Wheels said:

 

About Rhaegars death I will say this: Yes. He died. There is almost no doubt. But where was his body? his squire? his funeral? It happened on the Quiet Isle. The Brothers Burned Him. Rhaegar Died and Mance was Born.

Wait, wait, wait. First you demand only book info, and then you claim for fact something that is never stated anywhere? 

5 minutes ago, Wheels said:

Another character that died on the Quiet Isle? The Hound - and don't tell me that you think Sandor is actually dead please.

You make it sound as if anyone who died might resurface as another person. Some being lucky doesn't mean others were. Besides, no-one ever saw Sandor's dead body, unlike Rhaegar's.

5 minutes ago, Wheels said:

Another Character that died and was reborn? Catelyn/Stoneheart. Another? Gregor/Robert Strong. There's a theme here.

No, Catelyn was NOT reborn, she was resurrected a freaking zombie, and so was Gregor. Can't see how you can lump them along with Sandor.

5 minutes ago, Wheels said:

Every time a character dies they come back differently. You say that GRRM said only two men survived the fight at the TOJ? (please show me where) It's true. Arthur Dayne Died with his fingers and the Halfhand was born. I am not moved by your arguments.

"They had been seven against three, yet only two had lived to ride away." That's right AGOT there, which you claim you know well. Then there was a recent (some months) interview with GRRM which spelled it out for anyone who didn't get it the first time.

5 minutes ago, Wheels said:

Here's what you were looking for:

No, it's not. You claimed that Ned starts fretting about broken promises right after the quarrel with Robert about Dany's assassination, and that's incorrect, the part about the broken promises comes only after Robert's death. Note that he is pissed with Robert for suggesting such a disgusting "solution" but other than that, doesn't make a single move to protect the life of Lyanna's supposed daughter.

As for what triggered the ToJ dream, did you somehow miss that on the way from the brothel, Ned muses about Lyanna, promises to her that he kept, Jon and Rhaegar?

5 minutes ago, Wheels said:

If you really wanna believe the version of events where Dany is the daughter of a psychopath and Jon kills her and Jaime dies without ever regaining his honor and Tyrion never reconciles everybody and Ashara and Arthur and Rhaegar are never heard from again then fine. go ahead. but I think there's A LOT more people who would like all our favorite Targaryans to actually find each other and soar on their Dragons off into Destiny together.

Indeed, More books and the story that GRRM actually wrote, rather than the one you want to see.

[Wheels]

Yawn... The idea is that they all die. some literally, some figuratively, its all the same to the many faced god.

2 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

No, it's not. You claimed that Ned starts fretting about broken promises right after the quarrel with Robert about Dany's assassination, and that's incorrect, the part about the broken promises comes only after Robert's death. Note that he is pissed with Robert for suggesting such a disgusting "solution" but other than that, doesn't make a single move to protect the life of Lyanna's supposed daughter.

As for what triggered the ToJ dream, did you somehow miss that on the way from the brothel, Ned muses about Lyanna, promises to her that he kept, Jon and Rhaegar?

no I did not forget its just not that relevant.

- "He thought of the promises he’d made Lyanna as she lay dying, and the price he’d paid to keep them."

Why was the promise he made Lyanna on his mind right after the council meeting? he doesn't think of her at all in the earlier parts of the novel unless Robert brings her up. And for him to dream about the tower right after hearing that Dany was going to be assasinated? and for this:

- “Serve the boar at my funeral feast,” Robert rasped. “Apple in its mouth, skin seared crisp. Eat the bastard. Don’t care if you choke on him. Promise me, Ned.” “I promise.”Promise me, Ned, Lyanna’s voice echoed. “The girl,” the king said. “Daenerys. Let her live. If you can, if it . . . not too late . . . talk to them . . . Varys, Littlefinger . . . don’t let them kill her. And help my son, Ned. Make him be . . . better than me.” He winced. “Gods have mercy.” “They will, my friend,” Ned said. “They will.”

Dany is mentioned literally right after the promise is. Sounds like a hint to me.

 

[Wheels]

35 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

"They had been seven against three, yet only two had lived to ride away." That's right AGOT there, which you claim you know well. Then there was a recent (some months) interview with GRRM which spelled it out for anyone who didn't get it the first time.

They had been seven against three(past tense). Only two had lived to ride away. Ser Arthur Dayne who was part of the 3 is dead certainly. The half hand was not part of the battle of 7v3. They would have left under the agreement that they were faking Arthur's death.

[Wheels]

2 hours ago, Ygrain said:

40 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

 

Indeed, More books and the story that GRRM actually wrote, rather than the one you want to see.

 

George says the ending is gunna be bittersweet but not that bittersweet. You really think we are going to endure the relentless clusterfuck of death and violence and our favorite characters getting killed and the bad guys always winning bullshit that is ASOIAF but not get some real bad-ass dragon riding repentance shit go down at the end? That would be the biggest cock teaz in the history of literature especially after all the dragon battles he talked about in TWOIAF. O well actually Jon just kills Dany because she wasn't hot enough for him and just when im starting to like Jaime him and Cersei are burned to death mid-twincest. Shit... Drogon just ATE tyrion ending House Lannister and Littlefinger weds Sansa and becomes king and on and on when does it stop?

You can think what you want but I'm gunna be pissed if i don't see Jon and his friends riding their fire dragons against some dead ice dragons and the knights king and his minions.

But I guess only time will tell Ygrain, time will tell...............

 

[Ygrain]

58 minutes ago, Wheels said:

Yawn... The idea is that they all die. some literally, some figuratively, its all the same to the many faced god.

no I did not forget its just not that relevant.

- "He thought of the promises he’d made Lyanna as she lay dying, and the price he’d paid to keep them."

Why was the promise he made Lyanna on his mind right after the council meeting? he doesn't think of her at all in the earlier parts of the novel unless Robert brings her up. And for him to dream about the tower right after hearing that Dany was going to be assasinated? and for this:

- “Serve the boar at my funeral feast,” Robert rasped. “Apple in its mouth, skin seared crisp. Eat the bastard. Don’t care if you choke on him. Promise me, Ned.” “I promise.”Promise me, Ned, Lyanna’s voice echoed. “The girl,” the king said. “Daenerys. Let her live. If you can, if it . . . not too late . . . talk to them . . . Varys, Littlefinger . . . don’t let them kill her. And help my son, Ned. Make him be . . . better than me.” He winced. “Gods have mercy.” “They will, my friend,” Ned said. “They will.”

Dany is mentioned literally right after the promise is. Sounds like a hint to me.

 

You do realize that the "promise me" is prompted by the preceding  exchange when Robert, in his deathbed just like Lyanna was, extracts a promise from Ned with exactly the same words as she did, right? Dany then comes from Robert again, it's not a follow-up for Ned's train of thought.

42 minutes ago, Wheels said:

They had been seven against three(past tense). Only two had lived to ride away. Ser Arthur Dayne who was part of the 3 is dead certainly. The half hand was not part of the battle of 7v3. They would have left under the agreement that they were faking Arthur's death.

Past perfect, actually.

And sorry but it is not possible to claim that only two lived to ride away just because the third one rode away under a different identity, unless he didn't ride but walk, regardless of his identity, but with the abundance of horses of the fallen, I don't see a reason for this scenario.

10 minutes ago, Wheels said:

George says the ending is gunna be bittersweet but not that bittersweet. You really think we are going to endure the relentless clusterfuck of death and violence and our favorite characters getting killed and the bad guys always winning bullshit that is ASOIAF but not get some real bad-ass dragon riding repentance shit go down at the end? That would be the biggest cock teaz in the history of literature especially after all the dragon battles he talked about in TWOIAF. O well actually Jon just kills Dany because she wasn't hot enough for him and just when im starting to like Jaime him and Cersei are burned to death mid-twincest. Shit... Drogon just ATE tyrion ending House Lannister and Littlefinger weds Sansa and becomes king and on and on when does it stop?

You can think what you want but I'm gunna be pissed if i don't see Jon and his friends riding their fire dragons against some dead ice dragons and the knights king and his minions.

But I guess only time will tell Ygrain, time will tell...............

 

Well, brace yourself for the worst, then - some of the characters are going to make it, some are not. Most are definitely not getting what they wanted.

I don't think there is any use in future discussion.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

13 hours ago, Wheels said:

You don't recall because it's not in the books. and yea, from the POV of one character or another we are all lead to believe that Dany was born on DS.

~We know that from the author himself.

How many times in these books are characters lead to believe things that aren't actually true? many times.

~Yet the author has never lied in his SSM.

My logic is that Dany's Hair and her eyes clearly mark her as a Targaryan making purple eyed Ashara the only person in Westeros who could pass her off as her own baby without raising suspicion. Jon is a non-issue because he looks like a Stark so Ned can easily claim him as his bastard.  Ashara takes D to Dragonstone to reunite her with her grandmother Rhaella, her uncle Viscerys, and the rest of the loyalists where she will obviously be the safest. Rhaella can't hack the last pregnancy and she dies with the baby. to protect her one step further they say she was Rhaella's child because why the hell would they want anybody to know Rhaegar had more children. Robert hated Rhaegar even 15 years after the trident and didn't give a shit about killing his children during the sack. this would make her "officialy recorded" birthday on Dragonstone about 8-9 months after the TOJ

~So she left the heir to be in fanger his whole life and instead of pass Dany as her own daughter she chose to risk her life during the travel and for the rest of the baby’s life? I mean Rhaella and Viserys were in danger since the Rebels won and the best plan in Ashara’s mind was to go Dany in the lion’s den?

I don't see what is so crackpot about this, its just as likely as the other theories out there.

~What make this so called theory to be different than the other theories out there is the fact that it isn’t supported by the text or by a SSM so it isn’t a theory. It’s a wishful thinking and a fanfiction.

 

as for "textual evidence" there's hardly any besides Ned's dreams which don't give us much of anything. this is purely speculation just like all the other theories about Ned's promises. I must have read A Game of Thrones at least 7-8 times since 2006 when i first picked it up and every time I do It becomes clearer to me that Ned only starts fretting about broken promises right after Robert goes off about assassinating Dany.

~BS. Textual evidence about R+L=J are in the whole series and not only when Ned was alive.

 

Again, Jon and Dany being twins IMHO ties together the whole story a lot better. It would make them the children of the union between Fire and Ice (R+L), separated at birth, sent to the opposite sides of the world, one is fighting fire and one is fighting ice. You honestly can't deny it makes for a much more poetic sequence and fits the narrative better than if Dany was the daughter of the mad king. We are told over and over that Targ's wedding brother and sister keep the bloodlines pure. If Dany and Jon do fall in love wouldn't it be far more fitting that they are actually brother and sister not aunt and nephew...?

~I can.

 

You don't have to like it but you sure as hell aren't going to change my mind.

~Why should I care about change your mind? I really don’t give a d**n about it. You can write all of your wishful thoughts which have turned into fanfiction, but that doesn’t make that they are theories or that people should treat them as theories.

 

[Jon's Queen Consort]

1 hour ago, Wheels said:

I'm sorry but I honestly just think that your ideas are lame. As far fetched and crackpot as you think mine are I still like them better than any other one that i've read or that you've put forward. Thanks for taking the time to duel with me Ygrain

You might like whatever you want. That doesn't make what you like either true or a theory. I would like for Jon's father not being a Targ, anyone else would be better for me that the inbreed Targs. That doesn't make my preference a theory or possible.

[Jô Maltese]

Modesty you are back?

[Wheels]

5 hours ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

You might like whatever you want. That doesn't make what you like either true or a theory. I would like for Jon's father not being a Targ, anyone else would be better for me that the inbreed Targs. That doesn't make my preference a theory or possible.

and this LOL. If Jon's father is not Rhaegar the series takes a massive downturn IMO. I can see where your erratic comments come from if this is the kind of thing you want for the story. That's fine that you don't like the Targ's but me and George are going to keep loving them the best.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

25 minutes ago, Wheels said:

LOL if you don't give a damn then why did you even comment? Your arguments are terrible. It honestly feels as if both of you barely understood most of the what I wrote but please, continue with your blustering. I am loving it.

I'm terribly afraid that we all understood you fine, it's just that you have nothing. Sorry.

[Wheels]

And just because you won't leave it alone the events at the end of the Rebellion are as follows according to the wiki:

282-283 AC
Robert's Rebellion: Rhaegar Targaryen abducts Lyanna Stark. Lyanna's brother Brandon and father Rickard demand that Aerys discipline his son, but instead the Mad King kills them both. Aerys demands the heads of Robert Baratheon and Eddard Stark from their guardian, Jon Arryn. Instead, Houses Arryn, Stark, and Baratheon raise the standard of rebellion. Robert claims the throne through his descent from his great-grandfather, Aegon V and thus Robert's Rebellion, also called the War of the Usurper, begins. Hoster Tully agrees to join the rebellion as well. The Tyrells remain loyal to the king and besiege Robert's castle of Storm's End, held by his brother Stannis. The Hand of the King, Jon Connington, is defeated in the Battle of the Bells and is sent into exile in the Free Cities. The rebel army defeats the royalists at the Battle of the Trident. Prince Rhaegar is killed. The Lannisters apparently march to the aid of King Aerys, but instead turn against him and sack the city. King Aerys is killed by Jaime Lannister. Princess Elia Martell and her children, Aegon and Rhaenys Targaryen, are brutally murdered by Lannister bannermen, causing a rift between Eddard Stark and Robert Baratheon. Ned Stark and Howland Reed defeat the Kingsguard guarding the Tower of Joy holding Lyanna prisoner, only to find her dying. Robert Baratheon is crowned King of the Seven Kingdoms. With the war at an end, Eddard Stark will return home to Winterfell with his bastard son, Jon Snow.

284 AC
Aftermath of Robert's Rebellion: At the command of his brother and new King, Stannis Baratheon builds a new fleet to assault Dragonstone, the last Targaryen holdfast left after the Rebellion. Dowager Queen Rhaella Targaryen dies in childbirth, giving birth to Princess Daenerys Targaryen during a summer storm. With the garrison of Dragonstone prepared to surrender, loyal Targaryen retainers spirit away Rhaella and Aerys' two youngest children, Prince Viserys and Princess Daenerys, to safety of the Free Citiy of Braavos.

Ok So not Only Is the entire Targaryan fleet at Dragonstone an entire year or more passes before Stannis builds a new fleet from scratch to take the Island. plenty of time to get there with no chance of Rebel ships being in the narrow sea. Ned would have known the Targaryan fleet was gone after being in kings landing. So your idea that the island is under siege already after the TOJ is false.

[Stubby]

[MOD]

This thread has degenerated so fair into name-calling and childishness that it is beyond rescue.

[/MOD]