Heresy 183

[Black Crow]

Welcome to Heresy 183, the latest edition of the quirky thread where we take an in-depth look at the story and in particular what GRRM has referred to as the real conflict, not the Game of Thrones, but the apparent threat which lies in  the North, in the magical otherlands beyond the Wall.

Otherwise Heresy is not of itself a theory but rather a free-flowing and above all a very friendly series of open discussions about the Song of Ice and Ice and Fire.

The strength and the beauty and ultimately the value of Heresy as a critical discussion group is that it reflects diversity and open-ness. This is a thread where ideas can be discussed – and argued – freely, because above all it is about an exchange of ideas and sometimes too a remarkably well informed exchange drawing upon an astonishing broad base of literature ranging through Joseph Conrad’s Heart of Darkness and so many others all to the way to the Táin Bó Cúailnge and the Mabinogion.

If new to the thread, don’t be intimidated by the size and scope of Heresy, or by some of the many ideas we’ve discussed here over the years since it began in 2011. This is very much a come as you are thread with no previous experience required. We’re very welcoming and we’re very good at talking in circles and we don’t mind going over old ground again, especially with a fresh pair of eyes, so just ask. You will neither be monstered, patronized nor directed to follow links, but will be engaged directly. Just be patient and observe the local house rules that the debate be conducted by reference to the text, with respect for the ideas of others, and above all with great good humour

With Season 6 of the mummers’ version fast approaching, preceded by the customary trailers much of it may impinge on discussion, especially as it will contain material which may or may not reflect on the content of the yet to be finished Winds of Winter. Bear in mind that to coin a phrase many roads lead to the same castle and that whilst the mummers know how the story will end, they are for various reasons treading a different road to get there. Treat anything with caution and above all contain it within spoiler tags – the Westeros Forum rules are very clear on the non-discussion of the mummers’ version outside of the designated area.

And just by way of advertisement, the run-up to Heresy 100 was marked by a series of themed editions each headed by a specially commissioned [and substantial] OP on subjects as diverse as Winterfell, the Timelines and Crows. For the approach to the bi-centennial a similar series of themed editions will appear commencing with 190 and featuring a re-run of some of the best bits from the original Centennial project together with some entirely new essays. We already have some volunteers but if anybody else would like to contribute please drop me a PM.

Beyond that, read on…

[Black Crow]

And now as usual the slightly spoilerish full text of GRRM's1993  letter to his agent, Ralph Vicinanza. Things have obviously changed a bit since then but If you don’t want to know, don’t read on:

October 1993

Dear Ralph,

Here are the first thirteen chapters (170 pages) of the high fantasy novel I promised you, which I'm calling A Game of Thrones. When completed, this will be the first volume in what I see as an epic trilogy with the overall title, A Song of Ice and Fire.

As you know, I don't outline my novels. I find that if I know exactly where a book is going, I lose all interest in writing it. I do, however, have some strong notions as to the overall structure of the story I'm telling, and the eventual fate of many of the principle [sic] characters in the drama.

Roughly speaking, there are three major conflicts set in motion in the chapters enclosed. These will form the major plot threads of the trilogy, intertwining with each other in what should be a complex but exciting (I hope) narrative tapestry. Each of the conflicts presents a major threat to the peace of my imaginary realm, the Seven Kingdoms, and to the lives of the principal characters.

The first threat grows from the enmity between the great houses of Lannister and Stark as it plays out in a cycle of plot, counterplot, ambition, murder, and revenge, with the iron throne of the Seven Kingdoms as the ultimate prize. This will form the backbone of the first volume of the trilogy, A Game of Thrones.

While the lion of Lannister and the direwolf of Stark snarl and scrap, however, a second and greater threat takes shape across the narrow sea, where the Dothraki horselords mass their barbarians hordes for a great invasion of the Seven Kingdoms, led by the fierce and beautiful Daenerys Stormborn, the last of the Targaryen dragonlords. The Dothraki invasion will be the central story of my second volume,A Dance with Dragons.

The greatest danger of all, however, comes from the north, from the icy wastes beyond the Wall, where half-forgotten demons out of legend, the inhuman others, raise cold legions of the undead and the neverborn and prepare to ride down on the winds of winter to extinguish everything that we would call "life." The only thing that stands between the Seven Kingdoms and and endless night is the Wall, and a handful of men in black called the Night's Watch. Their story will be the heart of my third volume, The Winds of Winter. The final battle will also draw together characters and plot threads left from the first two books and resolve all in one huge climax.

The thirteen chapters on hand should give you a notion as to my narrative strategy. All three books will feature a complex mosaic of intercutting points-of-view among various of my large and diverse cast of players. The cast will not always remains the same. Old characters will die, and new ones will be introduced. Some of the fatalities will include sympathetic viewpoint characters. I want the reader to feel that no one is ever completely safe, not even the characters who seem to be the heroes. The suspense always ratchets up a notch when you know that any character can die at any time.

Five central characters will make it through all three volumes, however, growing from children to adults and changing the world and themselves in the process. In a sense, my trilogy is almost a generational saga, telling the life stories of these five characters, three men and two women. The five key players are Tyrion Lannister, Daenerys Targaryen, and three of the children of Winterfell, Arya, Bran, and the bastard Jon Snow. All of them are introduced at some length in the chapters you have to hand.

This is going to be (I hope) quite an epic. Epic in its scale, epic in its action, and epic in its length. I see all three volumes as big books, running about 700 to 800 manuscript pages, so things are just barely getting underway in the thirteen chapters I've sent you.

I have quite a clear notion of how the story is going to unfold in the first volume, A Game of Thrones. Things will get a lot worse for the poor Starks before they get better, I'm afraid. Lord Eddard Stark and his wife Catelyn Tully are both doomed, and will perish at the hands of their enemies. Ned will discover what happened to his friend Jon Arryn, but before he can act on his knowledge, King Robert will have an unfortunate accident, and the throne will pass to his sullen and brutal son Joffrey, still a minor. Joffrey will not be sympathetic and Ned will be accused of treason, but before he is taken he will help his wife and his daughter escape back to Winterfell.

Each of the contending families will learn it has a member of dubious loyalty in its midst. Sansa Stark, wed to Joffrey Baratheon, will bear him a son, the heir to the throne, and when the crunch comes she will choose her husband and child over her parents and siblings, a choice she will later bitterly rue. Tyrion Lannister, meanwhile, befriend both Sansa and her sister Arya, while growing more and more disenchanted with his own family.

Young Bran will come out of his coma, after a strange prophetic dream, only to discover that he will never walk again. He will turn to magic, at first in the hope of restoring his legs, but later for its own sake. When his father Eddard Stark is executed, Bran will see the shape of doom descending on all of them, but nothing he can say will stop his brother Robb from calling the banners in rebellion. All the north will be inflamed by war. Robb will win several splendid victories, and maim Joffrey Baratheon on the battlefield, but in the end he will not be able to stand against Jaime and Tyrion Lannister and their allies. Robb Stark will die in battle, and Tyrion Lannister will besiege and burn Winterfell.

Jon Snow, the bastard, will remain in the far north. He will mature into a ranger of great daring, and ultimately will succeed his uncle as the commander of the Night's Watch. When Winterfell burns, Catelyn Stark will be forced to flee north with her son Bran and her daughter Arya. Hounded by Lannister riders, they will seek refuge at the Wall, but the men of the Night's Watch give up their families when they take the black, and Jon and Benjen will not be able to help, to Jon's anguish. It will lead to a bitter estrangement between Jon and Bran. Arya will be more forgiving... until she realizes, with terror, that she has fallen in love with Jon, who is not only her half-brother but a man of the Night's Watch, sworn to celibacy. Their passion will continue to torment Jon and Arya throughout the trilogy, until the secret of Jon's true parentage is finally revealed in the last book.

Abandoned by the Night's Watch, Catelyn and her children will find their only hope of safety lies even further north, beyond the Wall, where they fall into the hands of Mance Rayder, the King-beyond-the-Wall, and get a dreadful glimpse of the inhuman others as they attack the wildling encampment. Bran's magic, Arya's sword Needle, and the savagery of their direwolves will help them survive, but their mother Catelyn will die at the hands of the others.

Over across the narrow sea, Daenerys Targaryen will discover that her new husband, the Dothraki Khal Drogo, has little interest in invading the Seven Kingdoms, much to her brother's frustration. When Viserys presses his claims past the point of tact or wisdom, Khal Drogo will finally grow annoyed and kill him out of hand, eliminating the Targaryen pretender and leaving Daenerys as the last of her line. Daenerys will bide her time, but she will not forget. When the moment is right, she will kill her husband to avenge her brother, and then flee with a trusted friend into the wilderness beyond Vaes Dothrak. There, hunted by Dothraki bloodriders [?] of her life, she stumbles on a cache of dragon's eggs [?] of a young dragon will give Daenerys the power to bend the Dothraki to her will. Then she begins to plan for her invasion of the Seven Kingdoms.

Tyrion Lannister will continue to travel, to plot, and to play the game of thrones, finally removing his nephew Joffrey in disgust at the boy king's brutality. Jaime Lannister will follow Joffrey on the throne of the Seven Kingdoms, by the simple expedient of killing everyone ahead of him in the line of succession and blaming his brother Tyrion for the murders. Exiled, Tyrion will change sides, making common cause with surviving Starks to bring his brother down, and falling helplessly in love with Arya Stark while he's at it. His passion is, alas, unreciprocated, but no less intense for that, and it will lead to a deadly rivalry between Tyrion and Snow.

[7 Lines Redacted]

But that's the second book...

I hope you'll find some editors who are as excited about all of this as I am. Feel free to share this letter with anyone who wants to know how the story will go.

All best,

George R.R. Martin

What’s in that redacted passage we don’t know but here’s what appears to be the equally spoilerish original synopsis/publisher’s blurb for Winds of Winter; not the forthcoming one, alas, but one apparently dating back to when it was still to be the third volume of the trilogy and following directly on in content and style from the first synopsis set out above:

Continuing the most imaginative and ambitious epic fantasy since The Lord of the Rings Winter has come at last and no man can say whether it will ever go again. The Wall is broken, the cold dead legions are coming south, and the people of the Seven Kingdoms turn to their queen to protect them. But Daenerys Targaryen is learning what Robert Baratheon learned before her; that it is one thing to win a throne and quite another to sit on one. Before she can hope to defeat the Others, Dany knows she must unite the broken realm behind her. Wolf and lion must hunt together, maester and greenseer work as one, all the blood feuds must be put aside, the bitter rivals and sworn enemies join hands. The Winds of Winter tells the story of Dany’s fight to save her new-won kingdom, of two desperate journeys beyond the known world in to the very hearts of ice and fire, and of the final climactic battle at Winterfell, with life itself in the balance.

 

[Melifeather]

I thought you were going to move to the Winds area?

 

[Black Crow]

Not yet, not yet...

[Black Crow]

As usual things are a little slow at the outset of a new thread so I thought it might be worth taking a critical look at the original synopsis which was released last year. It goes without saying that things have changed, not just since it was written but in some respects re-written between the synopsis and the appearance of the first book.

For the sake of clarity GRRM’s text is italicized. 

Roughly speaking, there are three major conflicts set in motion in the chapters enclosed. These will form the major plot threads of the trilogy, intertwining with each other in what should be a complex but exciting (I hope) narrative tapestry. Each of the conflicts presents a major threat to the peace of my imaginary realm, the Seven Kingdoms, and to the lives of the principal characters.

The first threat grows from the enmity between the great houses of Lannister and Stark as it plays out in a cycle of plot, counterplot, ambition, murder, and revenge, with the iron throne of the Seven Kingdoms as the ultimate prize. This will form the backbone of the first volume of the trilogy, A Game of Thrones.

While the lion of Lannister and the direwolf of Stark snarl and scrap, however, a second and greater threat takes shape across the narrow sea, where the Dothraki horselords mass their barbarians hordes for a great invasion of the Seven Kingdoms, led by the fierce and beautiful Daenerys Stormborn, the last of the Targaryen dragonlords. The Dothraki invasion will be the central story of my second volume, A Dance with Dragons.

This all seems straightforward enough. The infamous Meereenese Knot has obviously delayed the advent of Danaerys the Dragonlord but it appears to be an essential plot element and therefore only delayed rather than discarded.

The greatest danger of all, however, comes from the north, from the icy wastes beyond the Wall, where half-forgotten demons out of legend, the inhuman others, raise cold legions of the undead and the neverborn and prepare to ride down on the winds of winter to extinguish everything that we would call "life." The only thing that stands between the Seven Kingdoms and and endless night is the Wall, and a handful of men in black called the Night's Watch. Their story will be the heart of my third volume, The Winds of Winter. The final battle will also draw together characters and plot threads left from the first two books and resolve all in one huge climax.

Again this seems straightforward, but what I suggest is significant is the way in which Others and White Walkers are not synonymous at this point. The “inhuman others” are “half-forgotten demons out of legend” but while that description can easily be applied to the walkers it is also applicable to the equally inhuman Children of the Forest and this passage clearly states that they “raise” both the undead and the neverborn – and the latter or walkers as we know know are created by magic and are not a race but rather “a different kind of life”.

The thirteen chapters on hand should give you a notion as to my narrative strategy. All three books will feature a complex mosaic of intercutting points-of-view among various of my large and diverse cast of players. The cast will not always remains the same. Old characters will die, and new ones will be introduced. Some of the fatalities will include sympathetic viewpoint characters. I want the reader to feel that no one is ever completely safe, not even the characters who seem to be the heroes. The suspense always ratchets up a notch when you know that any character can die at any time.

For reasons to be discussed below those thirteen chapters must have been revised or re-written prior to publication.

Five central characters will make it through all three volumes, however, growing from children to adults and changing the world and themselves in the process. In a sense, my trilogy is almost a generational saga, telling the life stories of these five characters, three men and two women. The five key players are Tyrion Lannister, Daenerys Targaryen, and three of the children of Winterfell, Arya, Bran, and the bastard Jon Snow. All of them are introduced at some length in the chapters you have to hand.

 OK, so all five are going to make it through to the end.

This is going to be (I hope) quite an epic. Epic in its scale, epic in its action, and epic in its length. I see all three volumes as big books, running about 700 to 800 manuscript pages, so things are just barely getting underway in the thirteen chapters I've sent you.

 I have quite a clear notion of how the story is going to unfold in the first volume, A Game of Thrones. Things will get a lot worse for the poor Starks before they get better, I'm afraid. Lord Eddard Stark and his wife Catelyn Tully are both doomed, and will perish at the hands of their enemies. Ned will discover what happened to his friend Jon Arryn, but before he can act on his knowledge, King Robert will have an unfortunate accident, and the throne will pass to his sullen and brutal son Joffrey, still a minor. Joffrey will not be sympathetic and Ned will be accused of treason, but before he is taken he will help his wife and his daughter escape back to Winterfell.

Minor alteration here and nothing significant. As written Catelyn visits King’s Landing and gets away before everything goes down, and Arya escapes – but not to Winterfell.

Each of the contending families will learn it has a member of dubious loyalty in its midst. Sansa Stark, wed to Joffrey Baratheon, will bear him a son, the heir to the throne, and when the crunch comes she will choose her husband and child over her parents and siblings, a choice she will later bitterly rue. Tyrion Lannister, meanwhile, befriend both Sansa and her sister Arya, while growing more and more disenchanted with his own family.

Sansa doesn’t marry and doesn’t bear Joffrey a son, but she does betray her father and bitterly rues it. Tyrion does try to befriend Sansa and does become more and more disenchanted with his family, but Arya doesn’t come into the picture.

Young Bran will come out of his coma, after a strange prophetic dream, only to discover that he will never walk again. He will turn to magic, at first in the hope of restoring his legs, but later for its own sake. When his father Eddard Stark is executed, Bran will see the shape of doom descending on all of them, but nothing he can say will stop his brother Robb from calling the banners in rebellion. All the north will be inflamed by war. Robb will win several splendid victories, and maim Joffrey Baratheon on the battlefield, but in the end he will not be able to stand against Jaime and Tyrion Lannister and their allies. Robb Stark will die in battle, and Tyrion Lannister will besiege and burn Winterfell.

Tyrion of course is nowhere in sight and the burning of Winterfell is accomplished instead by one Ramsay Snow/Bolton of this parish.Otherwise this one’s interesting and reveals a big change. Bran awakes from his Crow dream to find himself crippled and so turns to magic. In global terms we see this happening but in the synopsis its much earlier in time. We’re not told how he is able to turn to magic but I do feel that rather than give him a copy of the Boys Bumper Book of Spells GRRM has woven this into the other storyline and those half-forgotten demons out of legend – the half-forgotten Children of the Forest.

Jon Snow, the bastard, will remain in the far north. He will mature into a ranger of great daring, and ultimately will succeed his uncle as the commander of the Night's Watch.

Minor point here, Jon succeeded Lord Mormont and arguably only did so because his Uncle Benjen conveniently wasn’t around. This might suggest this is the only real significance of Benjen’s disappearance.

When Winterfell burns, Catelyn Stark will be forced to flee north with her son Bran and her daughter Arya. Hounded by Lannister riders, they will seek refuge at the Wall, but the men of the Night's Watch give up their families when they take the black, and Jon and Benjen will not be able to help, to Jon's anguish. It will lead to a bitter estrangement between Jon and Bran. Arya will be more forgiving... until she realizes, with terror, that she has fallen in love with Jon, who is not only her half-brother but a man of the Night's Watch, sworn to celibacy. Their passion will continue to torment Jon and Arya throughout the trilogy, until the secret of Jon's true parentage is finally revealed in the last book.

Abandoned by the Night's Watch, Catelyn and her children will find their only hope of safety lies even further north, beyond the Wall, where they fall into the hands of Mance Rayder, the King-beyond-the-Wall, and get a dreadful glimpse of the inhuman others as they attack the wildling encampment. Bran's magic, Arya's sword Needle, and the savagery of their direwolves will help them survive, but their mother Catelyn will die at the hands of the others.

Right, completely different from anything that happens in the books. Only Bran makes it across or rather under the Wall and Craster’s boys are nowhere in sight. Once again Bran is deploying magic too early and I think that this is all of a piece with GRRM deciding that Bran will learn his magic from the three-fingered tree-huggers.

Jon and Arya? No sign of it in the books but once again its interesting that this is the only reference to “the secret of Jon’s parentage”.

Over across the narrow sea, Daenerys Targaryen will discover that her new husband, the Dothraki Khal Drogo, has little interest in invading the Seven Kingdoms, much to her brother's frustration. When Viserys presses his claims past the point of tact or wisdom, Khal Drogo will finally grow annoyed and kill him out of hand, eliminating the Targaryen pretender and leaving Daenerys as the last of her line. Daenerys will bide her time, but she will not forget. When the moment is right, she will kill her husband to avenge her brother, and then flee with a trusted friend into the wilderness beyond Vaes Dothrak. There, hunted by Dothraki bloodriders [?] of her life, she stumbles on a cache of dragon's eggs [?] of a young dragon will give Daenerys the power to bend the Dothraki to her will. Then she begins to plan for her invasion of the Seven Kingdoms.

Slightly different as written but on the whole recognizable.

Tyrion Lannister will continue to travel, to plot, and to play the game of thrones, finally removing his nephew Joffrey in disgust at the boy king's brutality. Jaime Lannister will follow Joffrey on the throne of the Seven Kingdoms, by the simple expedient of killing everyone ahead of him in the line of succession and blaming his brother Tyrion for the murders. Exiled, Tyrion will change sides, making common cause with surviving Starks to bring his brother down, and falling helplessly in love with Arya Stark while he's at it. His passion is, alas, unreciprocated, but no less intense for that, and it will lead to a deadly rivalry between Tyrion and Snow.

Well they’re certainly not standing on the order of their going but apart from the Arya business this is broadly in line with the text.

[7 Lines Redacted]

But that's the second book...

So what’s missing? Clearly it’s something important but not yet revealed, however “as the secret of Jon's true parentage is finally revealed in the last book”. It’s certainly not that.

 

And then continuing the story with what appears to have been the synopsis/publisher’s blurb for the third book in the proposed trilogy. This one’s controversial in that it lacks the stamp of authenticity of the first, but it is consistent with it and appears to follow on from a [deliberately?] lost synopsis for Dance with Dragons for it open with Dany and the Dothraki in sole charge:

Continuing the most imaginative and ambitious epic fantasy since The Lord of the Rings Winter has come at last and no man can say whether it will ever go again. The Wall is broken, the cold dead legions are coming south, and the people of the Seven Kingdoms turn to their queen to protect them. But Daenerys Targaryen is learning what Robert Baratheon learned before her; that it is one thing to win a throne and quite another to sit on one. Before she can hope to defeat the Others, Dany knows she must unite the broken realm behind her. Wolf and lion must hunt together, maester and greenseer work as one, all the blood feuds must be put aside, the bitter rivals and sworn enemies join hands. The Winds of Winter tells the story of Dany’s fight to save her new-won kingdom, of two desperate journeys beyond the known world in to the very hearts of ice and fire, and of the final climactic battle at Winterfell, with life itself in the balance.

Not a lot we can say about this one other than that Danaerys the Dragonlord has most certainly not bowed down before Jon Snow and that I have a strong suspicion that the desperate journey into the heart of Ice was Bran’s trek into the Heart of Darkness. Be that as it may the reference to a second journey and the heart of fire, suggests that the final climactic battle might not be something so simple as everyone lining up to fight the blue-eyed in the twilight's last gleaming.

[Lord Wraith]

May this thread never die.

[wolfmaid7]

Glad to see we are still going strong.

[Black Crow]

Welcome back 

[Meanders with Daggers]

19 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Minor point here, Jon succeeded Lord Mormont and arguably only did so because his Uncle Benjen conveniently wasn’t around. This might suggest this is the only real significance of Benjen’s disappearance.

 

I hope there's more to Benjen's disappearance. I was really hoping his character could play a 'reveal' in the nick of time, sort of wild card. Maybe the hero that saves Bran from the demons?

19 hours ago, Black Crow said:

 

Not a lot we can say about this one other than that Danaerys the Dragonlord has most certainly not bowed down before Jon Snow and that I have a strong suspicion that the desperate journey into the heart of Ice was Bran’s trek into the Heart of Darkness. Be that as it may the reference to a second journey and the heart of fire, suggests that the final climactic battle might not be something so simple as everyone lining up to fight the blue-eyed in the twilight's last gleaming.

 

Maybe it's obvious, but I suspect Dany's going to need a marriage to unite the realm, assuming Jon isn't desperately in love with Arya as the synopsis had planned. I don't see Cersi/Jaime surviving, so that leaves Tyrion. Perhaps Tyrion and Sansa will renew their vows, then settle in Winterfell to live out their lives after the war. Jon and Dany may get hitched for the sake of uniting the people. 

Spoiler

I have noticed the show has been foreshadowing their union. I can't give examples, it's just a hunch. 

As to the second journey, it could go two ways:

1. An 'inner' journey into their own hearts or conscience to put aside family grudges, societal norms, or hearts' desires (e.g., Sansa and her lust for the true knight in her fairy tails), thereby growing up so to speak. 

Or ...

2. Fire wights!

[WhitewolfStark]

9 hours ago, Lord Wraith said:

May this thread never die.

But what is Dead, may never die...

[Black Crow]

2 hours ago, Meanders with Daggers said:

I hope there's more to Benjen's disappearance. I was really hoping his character could play a 'reveal' in the nick of time, sort of wild card. Maybe the hero that saves Bran from the demons?

Oh I dare say that we'll still see or hear something of Bejen before this is done - and I don't rule out his being the Nights King guy in the mummers' version, but the fact remains that his absence paved the way for Jon's elevation. The counter-argument of course is why was Mormont brought in as Lord Commander and Benjen demoted to First Ranger? Did the story just work work better that way [and it does] or did GRRM decide to preserve Benjen for a better occasion and let Mormont die at Craster's instead?

[Black Crow]

2 hours ago, Meanders with Daggers said:

As to the second journey, it could go two ways:

1. An 'inner' journey into their own hearts or conscience to put aside family grudges, societal norms, or hearts' desires (e.g., Sansa and her lust for the true knight in her fairy tails), thereby growing up so to speak. 

Or ...

2. Fire wights!

There are already undead raised by Fire, to varying degrees so I wouldn't rule anything out in that direction, but so far the "inner journey" is concerned, Bran's journey into the Heart of Darkness was certainly a physical as well as a metaphysical one so I'd be inclined nor to separate the two. Rather, given that GRRM has said we might see Valyria as it was but not as it is, I'd be looking for the second traveller in Tyrion.

[Melifeather]

On March 18, 2016 at 11:52 AM, Black Crow said:

The greatest danger of all, however, comes from the north, from the icy wastes beyond the Wall, where half-forgotten demons out of legend, the inhuman others, raise cold legions of the undead and the neverborn and prepare to ride down on the winds of winter to extinguish everything that we would call "life."

My beliefs regarding the Others and the Children have gone back and forth over the years, and I'm currently believing that the Children do not create the Others, but I think with their greenseers they try to control the living by manipulating the past, regardless of what Bloodraven or Leaf told Bran about calling back his father. They only warned him not to do it, because it's possible. They want to train him to do what they want him to do, but Bran is a child and he's going to start doing things on his own just like he slips into Hodor. He knows he shouldn't so he tries to be secretive about it.

It's a current pet theory of mine that the Wildlings are using blood sacrifice to create white walkers.

On March 18, 2016 at 11:52 AM, Black Crow said:

Again this seems straightforward, but what I suggest is significant is the way in which Others and White Walkers are not synonymous at this point. The “inhuman others” are “half-forgotten demons out of legend” but while that description can easily be applied to the walkers it is also applicable to the equally inhuman Children of the Forest and this passage clearly states that they “raise” both the undead and the neverborn – and the latter or walkers as we know know are created by magic and are not a race but rather “a different kind of life”.

I agree the Others and white walkers are not synonymous, but again I believe the Wildlings are the Others and the white walkers are their creation.

On March 18, 2016 at 11:52 AM, Black Crow said:

The five key players are Tyrion Lannister, Daenerys Targaryen, and three of the children of Winterfell, Arya, Bran, and the bastard Jon Snow. All of them are introduced at some length in the chapters you have to hand.

The way George has this listed seems to imply that Daenerys is an more important key player than Jon. If they were equal I would expect them to be listed more simply, like the five key players are Tyrion, Daenerys, Arya, Bran, and Jon Snow. I dunno. I could be wrong. It's really just intuition that makes me say this.

On March 18, 2016 at 11:52 AM, Black Crow said:

Their passion will continue to torment Jon and Arya throughout the trilogy, until the secret of Jon's true parentage is finally revealed in the last book.

I have been working on a Wheel of Time project based on the 30 uniquely named chapter POVs spread over AFFC and ADWD that I believe George has been using to symbolically tell the backstory of the events leading up to Robert's Rebellion by having current characters relive the past. For example, the Greyjoys are mimicking the Targaryens. Both families live or lived on rocky outcroppings. (Pyke and Dragonstone) Both areas are too stony to provide all the resources that their people need. Both families choose to to take what they need by force rather than negotiate politically. Both are associated with "iron". The Greyjoys are ironman from the iron island, and Victorian is the iron captain. The Targaryens conquered the Seven Kingdoms, taking their iron swords and hammered them into an iron throne, making the very words Iron Throne" to be the definition of "ruling". And both use the wind. The Greyjoys need wind for their sails, and the Targaryen dragons fly in the sky. Then we have the following characters that mimic each other:

Aeron Greyjoy aka Damphair = Aemon Targaryen

Balon Greyjoy = Aegon V aka Egg

Victarion Greyjoy = Aerys II Targaryen

Euron Greyjoy = Bryndan Targaryen aka Bloodraven

Asha Greyjoy = Rhaella Targaryen

Asha's uncle Harlaw "the Reader" = Rhaegar Targaryen

Kingsmoot = Great Council

Damphair said the Storm God threw Balon down = Robert Baratheon took Aerys II down.

tl:dr version is I'm beginning to question nearly every theory I've ever had up until the beginning of this project, including that Lyanna ever had a son named Jon Snow. Jon's parentage is going to turn out to be people not even on our radars.

[Black Crow]

2 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

It's a current pet theory of mine that the Wildlings are using blood sacrifice to create white walkers.

I agree the Others and white walkers are not synonymous, but again I believe the Wildlings are the Others and the white walkers are their creation.

 

Really, really don't see this one. It's entirely contrary to everything we know abut the Wildlings both individually and collectively, and I really don't see any evidence for it beyond the Craster's sons business; and even there its a matter of individual Wildlings [or families] owing allegiance to the Old Powers rather than the Wildlings as a people - especially given how difficult it is to get them to agree about anything.

[Melifeather]

I had provided my reasoning for the wildlings being the Others not that long ago when we were comparing the white walkers to outrunners. They were appearing between the wildlings and the Wall attacking the Nights Watch at the Fist, but not the wildlings.

[Matthew.]

The notion that the masters of the WWs are human - or rather, used to be human - seems no more improbable to me than any other explanation. The very idea of "The Wildlings" as a singular people is flawed, as we can see that the far north is a large and diverse place. At best, we only have insight into those peoples that Jon personally met, the people who are fleeing the north. Perhaps there are others we haven't met, people like Craster who have no need to flee, because they're "right with the gods."

The wildlings, in general, are an area of interest to me--how did they end up on the wrong side of the Wall in the first place? Did they start out as disparate groups of malcontents in the aftermath of the Wall's raising, or were they already there when it was raised? If Joramun truly had a "Horn of Winter," how and why was such a thing created, and why did these people who (seemingly) have such contempt for the NW and kneelers never destroy the Wall? Was there, perhaps, an era where they had a fundamentally different relationship with the NW and the people south of the Wall, and things have only changed as the NW lost its true purpose?

[Melifeather]

The wildlings were north of the Wall for a reason, and the Nights Watch spent most of their time keeping them there. They've mostly been spread out into smaller groups, but from time to time someone will rise up as a king beyond the Wall and try to organize and figure out a way to get south. Mance was clever enough to succeed by creating the appearance of danger and making the Nights Watch belief it's in their best interest to form an alliance. Mance used Jon Snow to his advantage by making him believe they were just ordinary people in extraordinary danger. Mance needed to get the wildlings on the other side, because their white walkers and wights cannot pass, but now that they've been allowed through the Wall, they can practice their ice magic and we're going to see white walkers and wights south of the Wall. 

[wolfmaid7]

21 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Welcome back 

Glad to be back.....

7 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Really, really don't see this one. It's entirely contrary to everything we know abut the Wildlings both individually and collectively, and I really don't see any evidence for it beyond the Craster's sons business; and even there its a matter of individual Wildlings [or families] owing allegiance to the Old Powers rather than the Wildlings as a people - especially given how difficult it is to get them to agree about anything.

I have to agree with this in so much as we have no proof to the contrary.I'm going off a couple of things.One being Tourmond's emotional response to Jon's inquiry about the Others.It didn't come off as him having any knowledge of the WWs.He could be excluded from the loop sooo,,,,

[Black Crow]

12 hours ago, Matthew. said:

The notion that the masters of the WWs are human - or rather, used to be human - seems no more improbable to me than any other explanation. The very idea of "The Wildlings" as a singular people is flawed, as we can see that the far north is a large and diverse place. At best, we only have insight into those peoples that Jon personally met, the people who are fleeing the north. Perhaps there are others we haven't met, people like Craster who have no need to flee, because they're "right with the gods."

The wildlings, in general, are an area of interest to me--how did they end up on the wrong side of the Wall in the first place? Did they start out as disparate groups of malcontents in the aftermath of the Wall's raising, or were they already there when it was raised? If Joramun truly had a "Horn of Winter," how and why was such a thing created, and why did these people who (seemingly) have such contempt for the NW and kneelers never destroy the Wall? Was there, perhaps, an era where they had a fundamentally different relationship with the NW and the people south of the Wall, and things have only changed as the NW lost its true purpose?

Good questions all. I'm always wary of over-analysing these things when it may be sufficient that the story is written as it is because GRRM wants it to happen without getting too tangled up in the why or any of the contradictions that arise. As I've said in relation to the undead I think that the differences and apparent contradictions are there because GRRM required them to act in certain ways at certain times rather than because he'd prepared a complete cosmology or a hierarchy of demons.

In this case I don't believe for one moment that "the Wildlings" are the Others or are behind the white walkers, far less the wights. GRRM is pretty explicit in distinguishing between the Wildlings and the "half-forgotten demons out of legend, the inhuman others." But that also, as I said is not to rule out the possibility that some Wildlings, like Craster, may owe allegiance to "the inhuman others". 

As to why, this trespasses on your second paragraph and here I agree with you. Some of the disparate collection of peoples we know as the Wildlings can safely be assumed to have been living there before the Wall was built and by some means or another had survived the Long Night through their own resources; the Thenns are an obvious case in point, and the cannibal clans of the Ice River and the Hornfoots probably likewise. When it comes to the more ordinary Wildlings though I'd be more inclined to see their origin as refugees fleeing alongside the Children of the Forest from the Andal-led pogroms. Since then the two have obviously drifted apart - and Ygritte's and Osha's testimony is valuable here, with just a few "sin-eaters" still actively keeping right by the gods

 

[Black Crow]

13 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

I had provided my reasoning for the wildlings being the Others not that long ago when we were comparing the white walkers to outrunners. They were appearing between the wildlings and the Wall attacking the Nights Watch at the Fist, but not the wildlings.

Still don't see it. I do think that the rangers on the Fist were attacked in order to clear the way for Mance's trek. Indeed I was the first to propose it long long ago; but I hold that this was orchestrated by the "inhuman others" for their own purposes.