Heresy 183

[wolfmaid7]

1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

Well, we'll have to agree to disagree on this one because taking the text as read and accepting that the white walkers are not a different race but are Craster's sons, is so pregnant with implications that its hard to see why it would be introduced to the story at all  if it were not true.

Turning it around, if it were to be told in reverse it might work. If say the black rangers tooled up at Craster's on the outward leg of their expedition and Craster told them they were welcome, but to excuse him for a moment while he made a sacrifice to his gods; and then on the way back they were told by the wives that it was all nonsense and that they had been taking their revenge by convincing him that the gods would love him if he left his sons out in the cold.

Instead, as written, things are a bit vague first time around. Gilly is afraid that she's going to have a boy and that the cold gods with the blue eyes will come for him - not that Craster will take him for a walk in the woods - and then second time around after Craster is dead its the women who tell Sam about the connection between the walkers and their sons.

We will always disagree on this on Papa Crow.There is no way those women could know wws are Craster's sons.

furthermore,there's no proof that what was seen in the night being wws.

[WhitewolfStark]

On 3/19/2016 at 11:02 AM, Black Crow said:

Oh I dare say that we'll still see or hear something of Bejen before this is done - and I don't rule out his being the Nights King guy in the mummers' version, but the fact remains that his absence paved the way for Jon's elevation. The counter-argument of course is why was Mormont brought in as Lord Commander and Benjen demoted to First Ranger? Did the story just work work better that way [and it does] or did GRRM decide to preserve Benjen for a better occasion and let Mormont die at Craster's instead?

When I was rereading AGOT it was nice actually because having Jon interact with Jorah's father, and Robb interacting with Jeor's sister helped tie together all the stories with the rest of the story going on down in King's Landing. The Darrys likewise help this with Robb interacting with young Lord Lyman, Ned having to deal with Raymund on two occasions, Dany remembering Ser Willem, etc.

Having characters interact with family members of characters that other characters interacted with helped to promote a sense of interconnectedness and even a bit of containment throughout the first novel.

[Armstark]

26 minutes ago, wolfmaid7 said:

What instinct? Do you not remember in the previous longnight what mothers did to their children vs seeing them face suffering?

As to this case one boy beyond one were to survive and be raised there what would happen socially to the Keep and all there?

A mother's instinct to protect its child, it doesn't get more basic than that. Are you arguing that leaving them out in the cold to die to the elements and the fauna is protecting them from suffering? There are not facing the long night or even anything that comes close in danger so they are certainly not protecting them by killing them.

 

What would happen to Craster's Keep when a mother decides not to sacrifice her son is quite simple. Craster would kill the child and likely the mother as well - and therein lies the heart of the matter - it is fear that makes the mothers go along. Fear of the man and fear of the gods.

 

What do you think is their reason for doing it? You haven't answered that question.

[Armstark]

Regarding Benjen's role: I believe he will make an apearance pretty early in the next book and become the 999th LC. And we only will get to see him through Melisandre - our only POV left at the Wall. It is just too good from a storytelling perspective I think to reveal more parts of the Stark-Other connection through the eyes of a biased source like Melisandre who is also prone to misinterpretation. it will keep us wondering what it all really means, if Benjen is really Benjen, what his motives are now etc.

[Black Crow]

10 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

We will always disagree on this on Papa Crow.There is no way those women could know wws are Craster's sons.

furthermore,there's no proof that what was seen in the night being wws.

We are dealing with magic after all and going against what Gilly, her mother and the other women say requires adding a whole layer or layers of complexity to what, ultimately, is a dramatic element of the story; all in order to render it on the one hand mundane and on the other pointless in terms of the narrative.

[Black Crow]

On 3/26/2016 at 3:27 AM, wolfmaid7 said:

As in they are they are the shadows of a man in particular. I still believe that Craster's babies died by exposure or were torn apart by some hungry animals and this for Craster is what he was thought to believe.Its easier than your women are klling all your male born.

This to me is generational gender murder started by a spiteful woman cloaked in a story of sacrifice with the bonus of your sons are coming back as gods.I think there's a lot of the ugly side of humanity being revealed here.

 

10 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

What instinct? Do you not remember in the previous longnight what mothers did to their children vs seeing them face suffering?

As to this case one boy beyond one were to survive and be raised there what would happen socially to the Keep and all there?

So which is it to be? Revenge on Craster or murdering their own sons [horribly] rather than see them "suffer". This is a long way removed from a deeply personal decision to quietly smother an infant. Why is Craster's household abnormal? Its because he sacrifices his sons, who would otherwise provide him with a labour force and protect and keep him comfortable in his old age. Why so many wives if not for a compulsion to breed more sons in order to give them up to the gods.

[Black Crow]

10 hours ago, WhitewolfStark said:

When I was rereading AGOT it was nice actually because having Jon interact with Jorah's father, and Robb interacting with Jeor's sister helped tie together all the stories with the rest of the story going on down in King's Landing. The Darrys likewise help this with Robb interacting with young Lord Lyman, Ned having to deal with Raymund on two occasions, Dany remembering Ser Willem, etc.

Having characters interact with family members of characters that other characters interacted with helped to promote a sense of interconnectedness and even a bit of containment throughout the first novel.

[Black Crow]

9 hours ago, Armstark said:

Regarding Benjen's role: I believe he will make an apearance pretty early in the next book and become the 999th LC. And we only will get to see him through Melisandre - our only POV left at the Wall. It is just too good from a storytelling perspective I think to reveal more parts of the Stark-Other connection through the eyes of a biased source like Melisandre who is also prone to misinterpretation. it will keep us wondering what it all really means, if Benjen is really Benjen, what his motives are now etc.

Don't know about Benjen becoming Lord Commander, although I can see a possible scenario in which he effectively comes back from the dead in order to replace Jon and release him to be de facto Lord of Winterfell.

and who if not Jon - wearing Stark armour - is leading that Northern army against the Boltons in the upcoming series of the mummers' version?

I do concur in thinking that otherwise any return will be laced with problems. He wasn't a POV character back in AGoT and unless he returns as a [doomed] prologue/epilogue POV its going to be very difficult to convincingly explain and fill in the massive gap between his going missing and returning - and why.

[Armstark]

2 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Don't know about Benjen becoming Lord Commander, although I can see a possible scenario in which he effectively comes back from the dead in order to replace Jon and release him to be de facto Lord of Winterfell.

 

  Reveal hidden contents

and who if not Jon - wearing Stark armour - is leading that Northern army against the Boltons in the upcoming series of the mummers' version?

 

I do concur in thinking that otherwise any return will be laced with problems. He wasn't a POV character back in AGoT and unless he returns as a [doomed] prologue/epilogue POV its going to be very difficult to convincingly explain and fill in the massive gap between his going missing and returning - and why.

I am not revealing that content since I want to stay away from the show ( I guess it is about that?)

 

The reason Benjen might give for his absence could be quite simple: he was injured and holed up somewhere, only now strong enough again to travel back. Basically the exact scenario LC Mormont hoped for when he made camp at the Fist to wait for Benjen to find them.

 

Of course that will leave us (the reader) wondering what really happened

[Black Crow]

1 hour ago, Armstark said:

I am not revealing that content since I want to stay away from the show ( I guess it is about that?)

The reason Benjen might give for his absence could be quite simple: he was injured and holed up somewhere, only now strong enough again to travel back. Basically the exact scenario LC Mormont hoped for when he made camp at the Fist to wait for Benjen to find them.

Of course that will leave us (the reader) wondering what really happened

As to the first it is and its big and its consistent with what we've been arguing on Heresy for a long time.

As to the second there might be an "innocent" and simple explanation for Benjen's disappearance which is indeed what the original search parties and then Mormont's own ranging hoped to discover. However that was still just a few months after he'd gone and while the timings of it all are tolerably vague we're now a few years down the line and any discovery of Benjen which doesn't involve old human remains is neither going to be simple nor innocent

[Melifeather]

There's been a pretty significant finding to update and support my theory regarding the wheel of time, the reliving of past lives, Bran the timelord/time traveler, and opening hinges. Min (LynnS on Westeros) wrote a fabulous essay on Hinges where she shows evidence of weaving and stitching of spells and possible unraveling, and the similarities between the tapestries and rugs inside the House of the Undying and the tunnels in the Wall. Likewise, I have been working on The Drowned Man chapter 19 in AFFC and came upon Damphair's memory of an iron hinge squeaking that he associated with Euron as a frightening memory. I have already identified Damphair as reliving Aemon Targaryen's life, and Euron reliving Bloodraven's life, so it seems likely that either Euron or Bloodraven was able to remove or unravel a spell or ward on an old hinge. I don't have that essay done yet, but I will supply a link when I do. But you can enjoy min's essay here: link

[Matthew.]

18 hours ago, WhitewolfStark said:

When I was rereading AGOT it was nice actually because having Jon interact with Jorah's father, and Robb interacting with Jeor's sister helped tie together all the stories with the rest of the story going on down in King's Landing. The Darrys likewise help this with Robb interacting with young Lord Lyman, Ned having to deal with Raymund on two occasions, Dany remembering Ser Willem, etc.

Having characters interact with family members of characters that other characters interacted with helped to promote a sense of interconnectedness and even a bit of containment throughout the first novel.

Related to the interconnectedness that Martin has maintained, despite the scope of the story, I continue to be bothered by how, at least on the surface, the story of the WWs seems to be this mounting thing that's totally unrelated to the other stories and themes within the books. I say "seems," because I'm holding to a certain amount of faith that how they relate to the rest of the story that has been told thus far will become much more clear.

Nearly every theory I've seen for the WWs fails to adequately fit them into the existing narrative. There's plenty of logical theories about how they came to be, and how they fit into the 12,000+ year setting of Westeros, yet few theories that adequately answer how they fit into the story we're being told--which is not a story that's "about" the entire history of Westeros, but rather, a story that is rooted in a place and time, with specific themes.

As an example of what I mean, although she has yet to arrive, the connective tissue between Dany and our other characters is clear, and how she'll eventually fit into the themes presented in the first five novels is not difficult to predict. She may have never met the Starks or Lannisters, yet their character journeys are heavily rooted in the events of Harrenhal and Robert's Rebellion.

Littlefinger, the Martells, the Tullys, the Arryns, the Baratheons--dig deep enough, and almost across the board you'll find that these characters and factions have journeys and motives that share the era of Robert's Rebellion as a connective point. Even those characters that were born in the aftermath find themselves trapped in the cycle of retribution and doomed ambition that began 15 years prior to aGoT.

Which causes me to ask once again: where do the white walkers fit in? Did Martin spend 5,000+ pages telling us one story, only to have the WWs arrive at the very end with an origin and motives that are largely unrelated? Or, like everything else, does the story of the present uprising of wights and WWs begin with the events that unfolded at Harrenhal?
 

[Black Crow]

18 minutes ago, Matthew. said:

Related to the interconnectedness that Martin has maintained, despite the scope of the story, I continue to be bothered by how, at least on the surface, the story of the WWs seems to be this mounting thing that's totally unrelated to the other stories and themes within the books. I say "seems," because I'm holding to a certain amount of faith that how they relate to the rest of the story that has been told thus far will become much more clear...
 

I agree entirely and whilst much has yet to be revealed my own view is that the Craster's sons business does indeed start to do this. If they are Craster's sons then they are not a random race who appear randomly as an external threat, but are an internal threat closely bound up with the existing story and existing characters. I don't for one moment believe that all of the white rangers are Craster's sons and look to more links closer to home and, as we've contemplated, links to the Starks ancient and modern; not necessarily as prime movers but through old allegiances. Craster is not the beginning and end of this and his story is only the opening of the door to what really lies within.

[Armstark]

6 hours ago, Black Crow said:

As to the first it is and its big and its consistent with what we've been arguing on Heresy for a long time.

As to the second there might be an "innocent" and simple explanation for Benjen's disappearance which is indeed what the original search parties and then Mormont's own ranging hoped to discover. However that was still just a few months after he'd gone and while the timings of it all are tolerably vague we're now a few years down the line and any discovery of Benjen which doesn't involve old human remains is neither going to be simple nor innocent

Well it could still be simple, just not very believable  I never suggested that would be what really happened to Benjen, rather only what he might tell the brothers.

1 hour ago, Matthew. said:

*snip*

I agree with you which is why I suggested a few pages back that some already known characters might be in league with the Others. Littlefinger chief among them. 

 

I also agree that Harrenhal is likely the key to it all.

[Black Crow]

1 hour ago, Armstark said:

Well it could still be simple, just not very believable  I never suggested that would be what really happened to Benjen, rather only what he might tell the brothers.

I'd be inclined to go so far as to suggest that unless he openly appears with a blue-eyed army at his back, any explanation he might offer would have to be regarded with extreme suspicion possibly backed up by equally extreme prejudice

[Black Crow]

1 hour ago, Armstark said:

2 hours ago, Matthew. said:

...Or, like everything else, does the story of the present uprising of wights and WWs begin with the events that unfolded at Harrenhal?
 

I also agree that Harrenhal is likely the key to it all.

Go on then, convince me - and was it co-incidence that Howland Reed should row ashore from the Isle of Faces when he did?

[Melifeather]

If any character other than Bran is in cahoots with the Others, it'd be Euron, but it would be more due to his desire for power than to help the Others south of the Wall.

I was thinking that Bran was the one that opened the hinge, but I am rethinking that due to the memory Aeron Greyjoy "Damphair" has of Euron and a squeaky iron hinge. It's something that terrifies him. If Euron follows the Marvel character of Mordo, then he was Bloodraven's apprentice at one time, until Bloodraven decided he'd rather have Bran. So, Euron opened a hinge and flipped a ward upside down like Patchface says. He's the one that benefits as the Iron Islands are now where Dragonstone was, so the Ironborn can conquer Westeros and take the Iron Throne. He must know something, because he won the kingsmoot by telling everyone that they could take Westeros with dragons, that he could bind them to his will because he has a dragon horn. He may not know or care about the danger this opening of the hinge was with regards to the white walkers. It's very possible that since the north is now the south, there may be a back door into the realm.

[wolfmaid7]

On 3/27/2016 at 3:56 PM, Armstark said:

A mother's instinct to protect its child, it doesn't get more basic than that. Are you arguing that leaving them out in the cold to die to the elements and the fauna is protecting them from suffering? There are not facing the long night or even anything that comes close in danger so they are certainly not protecting them by killing them.

 

What would happen to Craster's Keep when a mother decides not to sacrifice her son is quite simple. Craster would kill the child and likely the mother as well - and therein lies the heart of the matter - it is fear that makes the mothers go along. Fear of the man and fear of the gods.

 

What do you think is their reason for doing it? You haven't answered that question.

Survival Armstark,that trumps all other.Preservation of self and loved ones and and if love ones pose a threat immediate and in the near future self preservation kicks in.I believe we are talking on a point that has nothing to do with if the wws are Craster's sons.

I'll bite a little  to your initial statement myths in our own world contradict that assertion.

" I will slay the children i have borne,there is none shall take them from my toils Medea."

Another version

My friends. I have determined to do the deed at once, to kill my children and leave this land, 
and not to falter or give my children over to let a hand more hostile murder them. 
They must die and since they must I, who brought them into the world, will kill them Medea.

It makes no sense logically doesn't it,but it was a thing.From a fate more worse they do it.

Tales in this book.

Old Nan:

"Women smothered their children rather than see them starve."

There was also talk of men walking off during the LN to avoid the same.Leaving their wives and kids to whom they couldn't watch suffer.

People make really messed up choices for what they think is best,or it could be selfish and be about what they can't handle.

I think it safe to say there are some things that supercede a mom's desire to protect her child.

Now to the important stuff let's look at what is said as it relates to Craster's son's outside the bullshit when the Old woman numero uno is not trying to make Sam believe Craster's boys have returned as supernatural beings.

" You have no sons,you expose them.Gilly said as much,you leave them in the woods.Sam,asos.pg 452.

From Gilly to Jon:

"A mother can't leave her son, or else she's cursed forever. Not a son. We saved him, Sam and me. Please. Please, m'lord. We saved him from the cold."

What Sam said is backed up by Gilly ,Craster leaves the boys exposed in the woods.The women know this and have known this and have allowed this.Instinct trumped by fear or survival it doesn't matter because the boys still get left in the woods.

Also,look what Gilly says in the bolded.Save them??? I thought they were alive and coming back as gods? Hmm.

Lastly, Jon and Mormont:

"He gives his sons to the wood.A long silence then: "Yes"................" I'd gladly send Yoren or Conwys to collect the boys."

Armstark all this goes to show that they leave the babies in the woods.My reason and your reason why is not important.They go in the woods and leave the babes out there exposed.

Ergo babe die from Hypothermia, hungry shadow cat/direwolf gets a free meal,fertilizer for Weirwood trees take your pick.

Let's say Craster decides to wait around and see who is picking up the babe ( perp = blue eyed cold shadows) out of curiosity that would be it.That would be the limit of their unbelievable eye witness account.We can't take Old woman #1 statement because its not reliable on account of there's no way they could know that.

Do you still want to answer the question as to why i believe this is going on? I left it out because it is irrelevant to Craster's sons = wws.

[Black Crow]

4 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Survival Armstark,that trumps all other.Preservation of self and loved ones and and if love ones pose a threat immediate and in the near future self preservation kicks in.I believe we are talking on a point that has nothing to do with if the wws are Craster's sons.

Now to the important stuff let's look at what is said as it relates to Craster's son's outside the bullshit when the Old woman numero uno is not trying to make Sam believe Craster's boys have returned as supernatural beings.

" You have no sons,you expose them.Gilly said as much,you leave them in the woods.Sam,asos.pg 452.

From Gilly to Jon:

"A mother can't leave her son, or else she's cursed forever. Not a son. We saved him, Sam and me. Please. Please, m'lord. We saved him from the cold."

What Sam said is backed up by Gilly ,Craster leaves the boys exposed in the woods.The women know this and have known this and have allowed this.Instinct trumped by fear or survival it doesn't matter because the boys still get left in the woods.

Also,look what Gilly says in the bolded.Save them??? I thought they were alive and coming back as gods? Hmm.

Lastly, Jon and Mormont:

"He gives his sons to the wood.A long silence then: "Yes"................" I'd gladly send Yoren or Conwys to collect the boys."

 

The point remains that while acknowledging themselves cursed by doing so, both the other women and Craster himself bear that heavy curse and go on doing so. 

“He gives the boys to the gods. Come the white cold he does, and of late it comes more often. That’s why he started giving them sheep, even though he has a taste for it. Only now the sheep are gone too. Next it will be dogs, till…”She lowered her eyes and stroked her belly. “What gods?” Jon was remembering they’d seen no boys in Craster’s keep, nor men either, save Craster himself.

 

“The cold gods,” she said. “The ones in the night. The white shadows.”

 

…”What colour are their eyes?” he asked her.

 

“Blue. As bright as blue stars, and as cold.”

 

She has seen them, he thought. Craster lied.

 

That's pretty explicit and while some have argued that the white shadows with blue eyes are not walkers; she is definitely not describing a situation where Craster takes a boy off into the woods and next morning there it is gone.

The walkers come with that unnatural cold and its then and only then that Craster gives them a boy, or if he doesn't have one available, a sheep. Craster is struggling here to meet a growing demand.

[Black Crow]

17 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

I was thinking that Bran was the one that opened the hinge...

I'm still not convinced by this particular argument, but I would add the comment that your line which I've quoted reminds me very much of the one about the Crone opening the door to let the first raven [or was it crow?] into the world