Heresy 183

[Meanders with Daggers]

On 3/20/2016 at 1:15 PM, Neds Secret said:

I am just pleased because the original outline states that the others are indeed inhuman beings that actually do plan to invade the seven kingdoms with the goal of killing of all warm life because  5 books in and they have done little to actually suggest that they really plan to do this. So knowing that in theorising like outline the author actually states that they will do this is in strange way reassuring to me.

This! Couldn't agree more. 

Spoiler

This too relates to why I enjoy the show so much (I saw season 1 before I even picked up the books - since then I can't put the books down!) The show is stream-lining the story and there's a lot more of the forgotten demons/ice zombies, which gives me hope that we'll hear of more of this in Winds. Soon (TM). 

 

On 3/21/2016 at 2:04 AM, e1kabong said:

I've been kicking around the World book and had a thought. I don't recall it coming up before, but the heresy thread is a giant of a thing, so it's possible I missed it. Can the death and subsequent rebirth of the Targaryen dragons be linked to a blood oath between the Starks and Targaryens? Specifically, during The Dance of the Dragons, Cregan Stark and the "black" side of House Targaryen made the Pact of Ice and Fire, wherein the Targs promised a royal marriage in return for Stark support (the houses of the north typically staying out of southern affairs) during the civil war.

Although the king that rose after the events of the Dance, Aegon III, showered the Starks with rewards, the marriage never did happen. It was directly after the Dance that the dragons withered and died. It's often said that Targs are "the blood of the dragon". If they broke a blood pact with the Starks, were their dragons forfeit? 

Following that line of logic, if we assume that Rhaegar married Lyanna Stark prior to their deaths, did that fulfillment of the pact pave the way for dragons to return only about a decade later? (I couldn't find any info on how long dragon eggs take to incubate/hatch, so timewise, it's speculation). Thus, perhaps the literary translation issues of the "Prince/Princess/Dragon Who Was Promised" that Rhaegar refers to is not actually a savior of the world figure (like Azor Ahai), but a living symbol of a fulfilled pact that may allow the Targaryens to regain their former power via dragons.

I should also note something interesting: Cregan's maester is noted to have written a book on burial sites of the north and curses: The Passages of the Dead. Although seemingly academic in nature and not containing any actual dark magic, it makes one think about where his interests lie.

I really like this thought. For me it makes a lot of sense with regards to timing. Just to expand on this, perhaps during the time after the dragons died off, the Other lord has been recruiting/rebuilding his ice army to take advantage of the void in fire magic. However, since the death of the Targ monarchy - the Other lord started to advance, albeit slow, like a glacier. Then the birth of Jon 'sparked' the return of the Fire magic, because it finally fulfilled that pact described above. 

Although, being that Dany was born around that time is a kink in that theory. 

12 hours ago, Matthew. said:

Granted, it might be a little crackpot to suggest that Quaithe was "whispering" to Dany as early as aGoT, but it gives us an explanation for why Dany had the sudden inspiration to construct her pyre, and why she was so certain she would emerge unburned--she was already being manipulated by Quaithe, perhaps through a glass candle.

Edit: "All Valyrian sorcery was rooted in blood or fire. The sorcerers of the Freehold could see across mountains, seas, and deserts with one of these glass candles. They could enter a man's dreams and give him visions, and speak to one another half a world apart, seated before their Candles. "

I don't think it's crackpot at all, but if it is, I share that tin-foil hat. Given that the glass candles couldn't be lit until after the comet flew by (pls correct me if I'm wrong here), perhaps Quaithe's whispers were only perceived as emotional intuitions, instead of the literal voice in Dany's head. 

14 hours ago, Black Crow said:

The timing does tend to be one of the big questions, but given what we see of magick in all its forms returning I'm not convinced that there's a trigger at all, but rather that magic is tidal. It waxes and wanes with the seasons and just as we have spring tides and neap tides so in Martin's world there are periods when magic rises beyond the ordinary and things happen, like ancient dragon eggs hatching and the dead walking, rather than the other way around. It may indeed be the case the the significance of the comet is not that it scattered magic pixie dust as it flew by, but that the comet was itself drawn by the growing magic.

Rather than any of the various agencies who seem to be involved bring about this change I'd say it would be more accurate to interpret what we see as their opportunistically seizing the opportunity to do things they couldn't do before.

When the pyromancer asked Tyrion whether he knew of any dragons, because the magic was suddenly working again, the connection was correct but not the cause, ie; the dragons did not make it possible for their spells to work, but rather the spring tide of magic made it possible for both spells to work and dragons to fly.

I could get behind this theory too, as it reminds me of how the moon influences the tides. I can picture the magics as polar opposites like magnets - each pulling/pushing in opposite directions (forgive me, physicists). To find a sustainable balance for the people on Planetos, the magnets must have equal forces. However, it's magic we're dealing with, not physics. There lies the wild card. 

Quote

"He told me the moon was an egg, Khaleesi," the Lysene girl said. "Once there were two moons in the sky, but one wandered too close to the sun and cracked from the heat. A thousand thousand dragons poured forth, and drank the fire of the sun. That is why dragons breathe flame. One day the other moon will kiss the sun too, and then it will crack and the dragons will return." Daenerys III, AGOT.

How many moons does Planetos have? If the moons are the source to the fire magic, where is the ice magic coming from? I think at the least, this quote shows a turning point/inspiration to Dany's empowerment. 

 

Reading over the above, I realize I'm commenting all over the map. I'm just trying to catch up with my thoughts on the past 3 pages of this thread. 

[Matthew.]

7 hours ago, Black Crow said:

It's certainly a question posed by GRRM myself, but I'm still of the view that the dragons are an effect rather than a cause. Even allowing for the lack of total synchronicity [and we have the appearance of the comet as a marker] things were going down beyond the Wall long before the dragons hatched. I'm still more inclined to see the return of magic as a spring tide overtopping a metaphysical beach or sea wall. Once it reaches a certain level it cascades over, its power increasing exponentially. Once the dragons hatch they might well add to the power of magic, but they themselves needed to be awakened first.  

Perhaps, but I'm of the opinion that the sacrifice of Rhaego was the more significant act; it's after this that Dany's dreams escalate, and this is also the point where the eggs go from being dead stone to stirring to Dany's touch.

If all we had was Quaithe it would be one thing, but Marwyn's conversation suggests a similar cause and effect--in this case, that just as magic can be strengthened, it can also be killed. The fact that the decline of sorcery in the West can be linked to a specific catastrophic event is, in itself, also suggestive.

Questions of why the dragons were able to be awakened aside, I would still ask "Why now?" about what's happening north of the Wall; at the least, we have no evidence that the power of the Old Gods truly waned in the far north, at least as far as skinchangers go. I suppose we could cite the reappearance of the wights as "proof" of waxing and waning north of the Wall, but that is of course contingent upon the notion that the Old Gods and the Ice magic are related in the first place. There's also the complicating factor that we don't yet know where to draw the line between what Bloodraven wants and what the CotF want, and how capable he is of using his power without oversight.

[Black Crow]

16 minutes ago, Matthew. said:

Perhaps, but I'm of the opinion that the sacrifice of Rhaego was the more significant act; it's after this that Dany's dreams escalate, and this is also the point where the eggs go from being dead stone to stirring to Dany's touch.

If all we had was Quaithe it would be one thing, but Marwyn's conversation suggests a similar cause and effect--in this case, that just as magic can be strengthened, it can also be killed. The fact that the decline of sorcery in the West can be linked to a specific catastrophic event is, in itself, also suggestive.

Questions of why the dragons were able to be awakened aside, I would still ask "Why now?" about what's happening north of the Wall; at the least, we have no evidence that the power of the Old Gods truly waned in the far north, at least as far as skinchangers go. I suppose we could cite the reappearance of the wights as "proof" of waxing and waning north of the Wall, but that is of course contingent upon the notion that the Old Gods and the Ice magic are related in the first place. There's also the complicating factor that we don't yet know where to draw the line between what Bloodraven wants and what the CotF want, and how capable he is of using his power without oversight.

All of that is why I'm more inclined to look at a tidal effect rather than a single act. You're almost certainly right in seeing the sacrifice of Rhaego as the escalator [though of course it was the eggs themselves which started the dreams before that] but I have difficulty in seeing it as what started to bring magic back into the world; rather that it escalated because the magic was coming back.

In the end though all of this comes back to the even older question as to whether the Ice Dragon [and the walkers] comes with the cold or whether it brings the cold. Its one which GRRM has posed long before ASoIF and one for which I'd look to the former as the answer.

As to the earlier decline of magic, if there is to be a catastrophic cause I would expect it also to be a magical one in itself, whether that turned out to be a science experiment gone wrong or a cataclysmic clash of two different magicks.

[Black Crow]

2 hours ago, Meanders with Daggers said:

This! Couldn't agree more. 

  Reveal hidden contents

This too relates to why I enjoy the show so much (I saw season 1 before I even picked up the books - since then I can't put the books down!) The show is stream-lining the story and there's a lot more of the forgotten demons/ice zombies, which gives me hope that we'll hear of more of this in Winds. Soon (TM). 

 

I agree with your hidden comment as to streamlining/condensing, but as for the rest I'm confident that at the end of the day this story is going to be much more intimate than it might at first appears and that the blue-eyed lot are much closer in blood and kin, that old allegiances will be revealed in the Winterfell crypts and that it is more important that Jon, as Maester Aemon [Targaryen] proclaimed is a son of Winterfell; the son of the Lord of Winterfell's daughter and Bael the Bard.

[Black Crow]

4 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

I once thought so too, but now I think the other side of the hinge is an Alice in Wonderland's Looking Glass. 

Nah, its the Dark Narnia; the Land of Always Winter, the Snow Queen and her white walkers, the shape-shifting wolves and the three-fingered goblins.  

[Matthew.]

8 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

All of that is why I'm more inclined to look at a tidal effect rather than a single act. You're almost certainly right in seeing the sacrifice of Rhaego as the escalator [though of course it was the eggs themselves which started the dreams before that] but I have difficulty in seeing it as what started to bring magic back into the world; rather that it escalated because the magic was coming back.

At the risk of harping on it, there's yet more evidence of uneven rises and falls of magic to discuss--the Rhoyne and the Faceless Men. Whether or not the Rhoyne ever had real sorcery is, I suppose, unconfirmed, but at least by legend we're to believe they were practicing water sorceries just fine during the same time frame where "Ice" was dead and the Old Gods were in decline south of the Wall.

Similarly, the sorcery of the Faceless Men arose around the same time as their set of beliefs and rituals developed, and seemingly hasn't declined since, even with the death of Valyria. What's the distinction...a tide that favors Death and Glamour rising as Fire declines, or is the significance that the practitioners within the Faceless Men kept their rituals alive, whereas Valyria's practitioners were nearly wiped out in a single night, and the only remaining Valyrians with dragons left seemed uninterested in resurrecting Valyria, or keeping up the practice of blood sacrifice?

To add on to the discussion of the Citadel, and the grey sheep, we've gotten some bits and pieces of information from AFFC, ADWD, and WOAIAF about one Septon Barth, whose speculations in quite a few instances are proving impressively accurate, especially as regards skinchanging and raven lore.

I bring up Septon Barth because he wrote a "blood soaked tome" called The Death of Dragons (or, alternately, Fire and Blood), the only remaining copy of which is speculated to be in the possession of the Citadel. The reason this might be noteworthy is because Barth died in 99 AC, which means the Death of Dragons was not about the death of the Targaryen dragons...so what was it about? IMHO, given the alternate title was Fire and Blood, and fire and blood is the source of Valyrian sorcery, Barth's work was the very foundation upon which the grey sheep both came to understand sorcery, and came to understand how they can kill it.
______________

Okay, this is getting longwinded, but to bring it right back around to the quote about Rhaego, the reason I believe that it's his sacrifice that mattered, rather than the timing/tides, is because I believe a comparison can be made to the Hammer of the Waters; the suggestion, at least by legend, is that this extraordinary magic was not fueled by fortunate timing, but fueled by a mass sacrifice--including the CotF sacrificing their own young.

They weren't able to shatter the Arm of Dorne because it was the right time, they were able to do it because they were willing to sacrifice what was most precious to them, just like Dany, and just like Azor Ahai in the myth of Lightbringer.

[Black Crow]

The blood sacrifice is unquestionably important, but what I am questioning here is whether the sacrifice of a single child is sufficient to bring back magic into the world rather than that the sacrifice of that child was need to work the magic that was already there - and rising.

As you note the Children needed a mass sacrifice to work the magic necessary to bring down the Hammer of the Waters, but that's a long way from bringing magic into the world through that sacrifice.

[Armstark]

2 hours ago, Matthew. said:

Barth's work was the very foundation upon which the grey sheep both came to understand sorcery, and came to understand how they can kill it.
 

I like this a lot, great catch!

 

Regarding the question on why magic is on the rise I want to point out that  the comet could likely be seen coming for years by the interested eye(s). 

A quote from Bran's first vision:

 

He saw Maester Luwin on his balcony, studying the sky through a polished bronze tube and frowning as he made notes in a book.

 

 

So while magic on the fire side might wax suddenly, spontaneously and chaotically with the birth of dragons I want to suggest that ice magic waxes in a deliberate and steady fashion in anticipation of the comet and what he will bring to the enemy. Someone is deliberately  awakening the old powers  in the North in preparation of things to come. 

 

You don't even have to believe in the prophecy to prepare for war, the knowledge that the fire side does believe in it is enough. Surely when the comet is there they will act.

 

 

[e1kabong]

5 hours ago, Meanders with Daggers said:

I really like this thought. For me it makes a lot of sense with regards to timing. Just to expand on this, perhaps during the time after the dragons died off, the Other lord has been recruiting/rebuilding his ice army to take advantage of the void in fire magic. However, since the death of the Targ monarchy - the Other lord started to advance, albeit slow, like a glacier. Then the birth of Jon 'sparked' the return of the Fire magic, because it finally fulfilled that pact described above. 

I'm not entirely sure that the pact of Ice and Fire is related to the White Walkers (with a few tinfoil hat exceptions, one of which I'll talk about below). For one thing, to follow the train of thought logically, then White Walkers should be waning, not growing stronger (ie - pact realized, balance restored, etc.). Also, the wonky seasons occurred before this pact and after the fulfillment of the pact, so tying it to another Long Night set-up is a stretch. 

[Black Crow]

59 minutes ago, Armstark said:

You don't even have to believe in the prophecy to prepare for war, the knowledge that the fire side does believe in it is enough. Surely when the comet is there they will act.

That's why I suggested that rather than the comet tooling up and showering magic pixie dust over the land, it was more likely that it may have been attracted [as in drawn in] by an already rising tide of magic. If so, then those who understood such things might easily have been alerted by its appearance, knowing that its arrival would coincide with the tipping point when great spells could be used again - and prepared themselves accordingly, both metaphorically and literally raising their banners in anticipation.

[e1kabong]

Also, on the subject of magic coming back into the world with dragons, I don't think that this is necessarily accurate. There's a lot of examples of overt magic being worked (even fire-based magic) outside of the existence of dragons. The Cersei prophecy, the demon voice from the fire that Varys heard,  white walkers still being around in some capacity leading up to the events of the books, and Bloodraven as a whole. I don't necessarily think that dragons = fire magic. I think magic, in whatever capacity one can use it exists regardless. Most of the examples of magic "working again" is tied to the Targaryens. So dragons coming back isn't tied with the existence of magic, but the mystical power of the Targaryen dragon riders. Kind of like a phalactery: linked through magic, but not the summation of all magic. 

[Black Crow]

12 minutes ago, e1kabong said:

Also, on the subject of magic coming back into the world with dragons, I don't think that this is necessarily accurate. There's a lot of examples of overt magic being worked (even fire-based magic) outside of the existence of dragons. The Cersei prophecy, the demon voice from the fire that Varys heard,  white walkers still being around in some capacity leading up to the events of the books, and Bloodraven as a whole. I don't necessarily think that dragons = fire magic. I think magic, in whatever capacity one can use it exists regardless. Most of the examples of magic "working again" is tied to the Targaryens. So dragons coming back isn't tied with the existence of magic, but the mystical power of the Targaryen dragon riders. Kind of like a phalactery: linked through magic, but not the summation of all magic. 

Exactly so, which is why I'm arguing that dragons are a product rather than a cause of magic and are only flying now because for the first time in a long time there is enough magic - or even perhaps enough of the right kind of magic..

[Matthew.]

5 hours ago, e1kabong said:

Also, on the subject of magic coming back into the world with dragons, I don't think that this is necessarily accurate. There's a lot of examples of overt magic being worked (even fire-based magic) outside of the existence of dragons. The Cersei prophecy, the demon voice from the fire that Varys heard,  white walkers still being around in some capacity leading up to the events of the books, and Bloodraven as a whole. I don't necessarily think that dragons = fire magic. I think magic, in whatever capacity one can use it exists regardless. Most of the examples of magic "working again" is tied to the Targaryens. So dragons coming back isn't tied with the existence of magic, but the mystical power of the Targaryen dragon riders. Kind of like a phalactery: linked through magic, but not the summation of all magic. 

Actually, this isn't that far off from what I'm arguing. I'm not arguing that the resurrection of the dragons or sacrifice of Rhaego brought back magic as a whole, since we have plenty of evidence that certain magic - eg Faceless Men, wargs north of the Wall, Bloodraven - wasn't suffering any waxing and waning; I am, instead talking specifically about the magic of fire and blood, the magic of Valyria.

The magic wasn't 'dead,' but it was weak, and I believe that weakness correlated directly to both the decline of the dragons and the Valyrian sorcerers; to me the reason this is important is because I believe that if magic can be strengthened by human action, then it can conversely be weakened by human action. Thus, if one wants to stop the unnatural phenomena of the fire wights, they must slay Dany, or the dragons, or both.

Let me put it this way: If there were some alternate universe ASOIAF where Dany died uneventfully in the Dothraki Sea, or perhaps even before fleeing Westeros, then I believe that the pyromancers would never have seen their sudden increase in efficacy, the street performer would have never learned to climb the fire ladder, Beric would have stayed permanently dead, etc. On the other hand, I think the Other threat would be going just as strong, because I believe that whatever reawakened that sorcery is totally unrelated, and not contingent upon tides, seasons, or any other factor that's outside of human (or CotF) control.

[Melifeather]

My apologies in advance, but this will be long.

Many readers hope that the future books will reveal Jon’s true parentage, whether or not Daenerys will invade Westeros, and who will sit the Iron Throne. BUT the larger threat, as GRRM himself wrote in his book summary, is the growing danger coming from the north…the return of the Others, so the key player, if I had to pick just one, is Bran. Bran is the next greenseer and it’s his job to defeat the Others for good, and then maybe even both fire and ice magic. We can only speculate how it will end, but I feel quite strongly that this is Bran’s destiny and I will present evidence that Bran is a Timelord, as @weaselpie calls him, and he has altered Westeros so that the current people will relive the past, but come to a different conclusion. Somehow this different outcome is what Bran needs to defeat the Others.

 

The Wall is a hinge, and Bran has changed the future

 

The Wall is a hinge where the perspective of Westeros has changed. The alternate reality is a through the looking glass mirrored image. The past wasn’t changed, but the future has. The various houses are repeating their respective mirrored image, but with different outcomes. 

 

If you were to stand upon the Wall and look south, each respective area would be in a different place. The Iron Islands would be to your right, which is where Dragonstone would be if you were facing the Wall. Dorne would be on your left, which is right about where Casterly Rock would be if you were facing north. Winterfell now appears as if it’s in the south, about where the tower of joy and Starfall would be. Therefore:

 

Iron Islands = Dragonstone

Dorne = Casterly Rock

Winterfell = Starfall

North of the Wall = upside down

 

East is West, and West is east:

 

The Iron Islands are reliving the Targaryens. Some parallels have different outcomes, which is Bran’s intent. He’s trying to change the future.

The Iron Captain POV chapter is a metaphor for The Iron Throne, The Kraken’s Daughter shows Rhaella’s motivatons, The Prophet shows us Aemon Targaryen’s position.

 

 

Spoiler

 

1. Victarion is Quellon’s Greyjoy’s third son, but second in line after Balon. Aerys I was Daeron’s second son. Both never imagined that they’d be king.
2. Euron expected Victarion and Damphair to support him, because he was the eldest. When Aerys I named Bloodraven Hand, Prince Maekar objected saying the Handship should be his.
3. It is believed Aegon tried to work magic at Summerhall and failed. Nagga’s ribs became the Grey King’s Hall, and Victarion thought it was a magical place.
4. Victarion loved the Iron Fleet so much that he thinks to himself that he never loved his wives half so much. Aerys II had a reputation for infidelities, and Queen Rhaella complained that he turned the court ladies into whores.
5. When Victarion arrives to Old Wyk he instructs his men to position themselves betwen Euron’s ships and the sea, blocking any departures. Aerys I’s brother Daemon could have easily launched a rebellion from a tourney held by Lord Butterwell, but before the tourney was over, Bloodraven turned up outside with a host, ending a rebellion before it could begin.
6. Victarion wore a cloak contructed of 9-layers of cloth-of-gold, and underneath he wore heavy mail night and day, because he was afraid of poison arrows. When Aerys I was king, the Great Spring Sickness plagued the Seven Kingdoms and tens of thousands died.
7. Hotho offered Victarion his 12-year old daughter, but all Victarion can see is the salt wife he murdered and fed to the crabs. King Aerys I never had children, but his heir and brother Rhaegel choked to death on lamprey pie.
8. Euron is dark with black hair, and a black eye patch. His right eye is blue. His nickname is Crow’s Eye. Bryden Targaryen is an albino with white hair and red eyes. His nickname is Bloodraven and he has shown himself to Bran in his dreams as a three-eyed crow.
9. Asha was romantically connected to Tristifer Botley who remained a virgin, but she rejected his marriage offer. Rhaella was romantically connected to Bonifer Hasty, but he was of too lowly birth to marry. He dedicated his life to his religion.
10. When Asha came back from Deepwood Motte, she brought Lady Glover and her children and held them as a hostage in a tower. If Rhaella is Asha’s parallel, then it is possible Rhaella had her own Lady hostage and kept her in a tower.
11. Asha is her father’s heir by birth, but the Ironborn won’t follow a woman. Rhaella ’s namesake Rhaeyna was her father’s heir by birth, but the Targaryens won’t follow a woman.

12) Damphair declares the next king should be chosen from a kingsmoot. The Targaryens called          a Great Council to choose the next king.

13) The Ironborn worship a drowned god and drown followers as a type of baptism and raise           them up through CPR. Aemon Targaryen is at the Wall where the dead rise again, harder     and stronger as wights.

14) Damphair said the Storm God struck Balon down. Aerys II was overthrown by Robert         Baratheon from the Stormlands.

15) Asha’s uncle Harlaw “the Reader” sent ravens out to collect supporters to raise Asha up as         their queen. This would suggest that perhaps Rhaegar supported his mother as an         alternative to Aerys.

16) Euron won the kingsmoot by telling everyone that they were going to take Westeros with         dragons.

 

 

 

 

The Captain of Guards is a metaphor for Tywin Lannister’s schemes leading into the Rebellion

 

 

Spoiler

 

1. Doran Martell has crippling gout, and a guard named Areo Hotah that protects him without question. Doran’s gout symbolizes Tywin’s need to dominate, his impatience, and his anger with Aerys II’s treatment of him, including his rejection of Tywin’s marriage proposal of Cersei for Rhaegar.
2. Doran and Areo both notice overripe oranges falling and can hear children playing in the Water Gardens. The overripe oranges are symbolic of Tywin’s distrust of Aerys II and his plans to betray him by plotting his overthrow and death. The Water Gardens symbolize what lengths Tywin has gone to in the past to exact punishment on people who have wronged him. The Rheynes of Castamere were trapped in their underground home and a river diverted to drown them all.
3. Areo Hotah is a big brute of a man who only lives to serve Doran. Ser Gregor Clegane’s father helped Tywin murder the Reynes along with the Tarbecks. His reward was for Tywin to take on Gregor and later Sandor as squires.
4. During the Captain of Guards chapter, three different Sand Snakes approach Doran to demand justice for their father, Oberyn. Obara is described big-boned, near to thirty, long-legged, with close-set eyes, and rat-brown hair. He’s hot-tempered, strong, and quick and she arrived on horseback. Her horse was lathered and bloody. I believe Obara symbolically represents both Brandon and Lyanna Stark, as both were known horsemen, and both were known to be hot-headed, strong, quick, and had the “wolf’s blood”.
5. Oberyn Martell died in a trial by combat. Rickard Stark died in a trial by combat.
6. Obara demands justice for her father. Brandon demanded justice for Lyanna’s kidnapping, but it also may have been that Lyanna escaped her captors and then demanded justice for Brandon and Rickard’s deaths by going to Tywin.
7. Obara, Lady Nymeria, and Tyene are all arrested and kept in a tower. Lyanna, Ashara, and Elia are all assoicated with towers and evidence that they all died in towers.
8. Doran demands several times that Obara look at the children playing in the Water Gardens. I believe this is symbolic of Tywin using the example he made of the Rheynes of Castamere and threatened Lyanna.
9. Doran has a maester named Caleotte that advises him not to allow Obara to leave as she will inflame the common people. I believe this is an echo of what maester Pycelle told Tywin regarding Lyanna.
10. Doran tells Areo that it is long past due that he returned to Sunspear. Tywin leaves Kings Landing and quits as Hand to return, presumably to Casterly Rock.
11. Doran thinks about all his siblings being dead even though he is the eldest. Ser Gregor thinks of Sandor of only another mouth to feed, and it’s rumored that he killed his father, sister, and his first two wives.
12. Lady Nymberia is 25, slender, with long dark hair and violet eyes. Ashara Dayne is similarly described as a great beauty with long dark hair and haunting violet eyes.
13. Lady Nym asks Doran if it’s true Gregor killed Clegane, and says Tywin is paying them back with their own coin by promising his head, because she knows her father used poison on his spear and that he will surely die anyway. My interpretation of this is that Ashara spoke to Tywin and asked him if Rickard’s trial by combat was fair or was Aerys responsible for murder? Then it is possible that Ashara knows of someone that is slowly poisoning King Aerys, so it’s not necessary that Tywin overthrow and kill him.
14. Lady Nym questions Doran’s affections for Oberyn, but Doran says he loved him as he was his brother. I think this may be a clue how Tywin actually felt some affection for Rickard. He could have been like a brother to him, a relationship that was built during the war of the Ninepenny Kings.
15. Lady Nym declares only royal blood can wash out Oberyn’s murder. Doran says Oberyn died in trial by combat, so that is not murder. I think a similar thought may be that Ashara didn’t think Rhaegar should be held accountable for the deaths of Brandon and Rickard, because the trial by combat was Aerys decree. But Tywin says what happened to Rickard was murder and both Rhaegar and Aerys should be held accountable.
16. Lady Nym doesn’t want all of “Oldtown” destroyed, just four dead Lannisters: Cersei, Jaime, Tywin, and Tommen. The reverse of this would be Ashara not wanting all of Kings Landing destroyed, just to save four: Rhaegar, Elia, Rhaeyns, and Aegon.
17. Lady Nym says Oberyn waited 17 years to get justice for Elia, which is about the length of time Tywin was Hand and his long suffering wait to make a marriage alliance where Cersei would one day be queen.

 

There are many more parallels in the Captain of Guards POV, but I think you get the picture.

 

 

 

The Wall is like Alice’s mirror and reality has been flipped like the reflection in a mirror and north is upside down. In the past, Tywin was trying to secure a marriage alliance in which Cersei would become queen. He also tried to secure a marriage alliance for Jaime to Lyssa Tully, and he later successfully married Tyrion to Sansa. So what is the reverse outcome for Doran Martell? He made marriage pacts: Arianne to Viserys, and Quentyn to Daenerys. Viserys is dead, so he's sending Arianne to JonCon and fake Aegon hoping to make a new alliance. Perhaps this second chance at a marriage alliance is the current representation of Tyrion's successful marriage to Sansa? Quentyn was killed by dragonfire, so no marriage pact with Daenerys. And the opposite of Tywin would be Arianne likely not getting to be queen, Quentyn was unsuccessful because Daenerys denied him and he ended up getting burned to death. All the outcomes are different, so Bran changed the future.

 

Patchface tells us that the North is upside down

 

Patchface is another clue that Bran has changed the reality of Westeros. The area north of the Wall is upside down just as Patchface says. It’s like they are under water. The north is the sea where the big fish are eating the little fish, the white walkers are eating Craster’s sons, the dead are killing the living, and the wights come in waves. And the talk about mermaids, seahorses, and crabs could represent the Houses involved in the current conflict surrounding Winterfell.

 

Some of Patchface’s prophecies:

 

 

Spoiler

 

“ The shadows come to dance, my lord, dance my lord, dance my lord. The shadows come to stay, my lord, stay my lord, stay my lord. ”

 

- Patchface to Cressen and Shireen Baratheon

 

“ Under the sea, smoke rises in bubbles, and flames burn green and blue and black. I know, I know, oh, oh, oh. ”

 

- Patchface during the burning of the Seven on Dragonstone

 

“ Fool's blood. King's blood, blood on the maiden's thigh, but chains for the guests and chains for the bridegroom, aye, aye, aye. ”

 

- Patchface to Davos Seaworth

 

“ Under the sea the old fish eat the young fish. Up here the young fish teach the old fish. ”

- Patchface to Davos Seaworth

 

“ In the dark the dead are dancing. I know, I know, oh oh oh. ”

 

- Patchface at Castle Black

 

“ Under the sea the mermen feast on starfish soup, and all the serving men are crabs.”

 

- Patchface at Castle Black

 

“ The crow, the crow. Under the sea the crows are white as snow, I know, I know, oh, oh, oh. ”

 

- Patchface to Jon Snow

 

“ Malegorn: Lord Snow, who will lead this ranging?

 

Jon: Are you offering yourself, ser?

 

Malegorn: Do I look so foolish?

 

Patchface: I will lead it! We will march into the sea and out again. Under the waves we will ride seahorses, and mermaids will blow seashells to announce our coming, oh, oh, oh.

 

”- Malegorn, Jon Snow, and Patchface

 

 

 

Some of the characters have conflicting memories and dreams: 

 

The flipping of the current reality has blurred some of the character's memories. There must be some evidence to let us know that Bran has altered the future, and indeed there is. There are passages where people misremember weird things, like Ned’s fever dream about Lyanna, and Dany’s conflicting memories about leaving Westeros.

 

I don't think Daenerys is aware that she has mixed memories. She remembers Willem Derry as an "old bear", but I'd be willing to bet that he looked nothing like Jeor Mormont in real life. She only remembers him looking that way, because of the flipped reality. In the looking glass Bear Island is in the position where Braavos was. We know Jeor didn't die like Willem did. He was alive and well on the Wall up until he was killed at Craster’s. She also has memories of a red door and a lemon tree, yet she also remembers great wooden beams with animal carvings. I will state for the record that I do not believe Bran changed the past, but in changing the future he has caused some wonky-wacky memories and dreams.

 

There are lightning strikes noted in certain places which I believe may be places where Bran entered the alternate reality.

 

 

Quote

 

 

“Old Nan told him a story about a bad little boy who climbed too high and was struck down by lightning, and how afterward the crows came to peck out his eyes. Bran was not impressed.”

 

 

 

 

Quote

 

His favorite haunt was the broken tower. Once it had been a watchtower, the tallest in Winterfell. A long time ago, a hundred years before even his father had been born, a lightning strike had set it afire. The top third of the structure had collapsed inward, and the tower had never been rebuilt. Sometimes his father sent ratters into the base of the tower, to clean out the nests they always found among the jumble of fallen stones and charred and rotten beams. But no one ever got up to the jagged top of the structure now except for Bran and the crows.

 

 

 

 

Quote

 

As he rode past a lightning-blasted chestnut tree overgrown with wild white roses, he heard something rustling in the underbrush. "Ghost," he called out. "Ghost, to me."

 

But it was Dywen who emerged from the greenery, forking a shaggy grey garron with Grenn ahorse beside him.

 

 

 

I think the lightning strikes signify the "change", the time that Bran flipped Westeros's reality. The lightning strike is where Bran "entered" this reality and positioned himself where Jaime would push him.

 

Bran is modeled after Marvel character Dr Strange, and GRRM has collected all his favorite Marvel characters from his childhood and weaved them in one big story. I asked @prettypig if it were a recurring theme in the Marvel comics for characters destined to repeat past lives and she replied:

 

 

Quote

 

I will say that yes, this is prevalent in Marvel. In fact, probably 90% of Marvel plots involve people jetting back and forth through time and living various lives over and over.

 

Once I am FINALLY unemployed (!!!) and have some uninterrupted time, I will get back to work on the one character in particular that is this going to 11. Not only is he a timelord, but he has split into various incarnations of himself in different time periods and often those incarnations come into conflict with each other - at multiple points through the years, certain versions travel through time to not only try to stop one of the other versions from doing something, but to prevent that other version from springing to existence in the first place. Most time, the splinter personas don't know about each other and don't recognize they are in fact the same main character. It's like the world's biggest split personality and is one of the craziest arcs in the series.

 

 

 

There are multiple plot lines running through ASOIAF, but there is also one big overall arcing plot line of a battle between ice and fire and one character smack in the middle: Bran. The Children and their greenseers used fire magic in the past to defeat and contain the Others who were masters of ice magic. Melisandre and the other fire priests and priestesses think the answer is to kill the Great Other and eliminate ice, but fire is just as deadly and certainly more deadly if it’s the only game in town. What is Bran’s purpose, what will he be doing, and how will he do it? He’s already started by inserting Westeros into the looking glass hoping to achieve a different outcome. What exactly is the different outcome? Has Bran sacrificed his family in order to defeat the Others? Here are just a few things that I believe Bran has done:

 

1. the wildlings are south of the Wall
2. there is no Stark in Winterfell
3. the Stark bastard Lord Commander of the Nights Watch has been assassinated
4. the Targaryen with dragons has not invaded Westeros

[Black Crow]

12 hours ago, Matthew. said:

Actually, this isn't that far off from what I'm arguing. I'm not arguing that the resurrection of the dragons or sacrifice of Rhaego brought back magic as a whole, since we have plenty of evidence that certain magic - eg Faceless Men, wargs north of the Wall, Bloodraven - wasn't suffering any waxing and waning; I am, instead talking specifically about the magic of fire and blood, the magic of Valyria.

The magic wasn't 'dead,' but it was weak, and I believe that weakness correlated directly to both the decline of the dragons and the Valyrian sorcerers; to me the reason this is important is because I believe that if magic can be strengthened by human action, then it can conversely be weakened by human action. Thus, if one wants to stop the unnatural phenomena of the fire wights, they must slay Dany, or the dragons, or both.

Let me put it this way: If there were some alternate universe ASOIAF where Dany died uneventfully in the Dothraki Sea, or perhaps even before fleeing Westeros, then I believe that the pyromancers would never have seen their sudden increase in efficacy, the street performer would have never learned to climb the fire ladder, Beric would have stayed permanently dead, etc. On the other hand, I think the Other threat would be going just as strong, because I believe that whatever reawakened that sorcery is totally unrelated, and not contingent upon tides, seasons, or any other factor that's outside of human (or CotF) control.

As always I think we are differing in degree and emphasis rather than being diametrically opposed in this argument. While I still think that we are talking about tides of magic and think that magic "happens" where and when it does primarily because GRRM needs it to, I am also of the view that the effect is cummulative, ie; the more magic is done the more becomes possible.

[Black Crow]

3 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

My apologies in advance, but this will be long...

Yuup, a bit of a big one for the breakfast table 

I'm impressed by the depth, but in the end largely unconvinced. As I remarked earlier there are certainly parallels aplenty but the links aren't there and I think are simply the inevitable result of trying to write and manage the monster we call ASoIF. When working on this scale a writer will inevitably re-use situations and characters just as he [or she] constantly re-uses the words and phrases which characterise his or her writing style. As a writer myself I constantly find myself needing to police my draft text in order to control this natural repetition.

It is quite possible that GRRM is deliberately paralleling some characters and situations, although I doubt that its as systematic as you suggest, and while there's certainly a good argument that he is following Moorcock's eternal champion trope in Bran, Azor Ahai and perhaps other heroes come again, I do very strongly feel there's no substantive evidence of "our" Bran altering events in the past or in the future. I think that the world is as it is and that the story is the one laid out in the synopsis.

[Meanders with Daggers]

5 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Bran is modeled after Marvel character Dr Strange, and GRRM has collected all his favorite Marvel characters from his childhood and weaved them in one big story. I asked @prettypig if it were a recurring theme in the Marvel comics for characters destined to repeat past lives and she replied:

 

 

 

There are multiple plot lines running through ASOIAF, but there is also one big overall arcing plot line of a battle between ice and fire and one character smack in the middle: Bran. The Children and their greenseers used fire magic in the past to defeat and contain the Others who were masters of ice magic. Melisandre and the other fire priests and priestesses think the answer is to kill the Great Other and eliminate ice, but fire is just as deadly and certainly more deadly if it’s the only game in town. What is Bran’s purpose, what will he be doing, and how will he do it? He’s already started by inserting Westeros into the looking glass hoping to achieve a different outcome. What exactly is the different outcome? Has Bran sacrificed his family in order to defeat the Others? Here are just a few things that I believe Bran has done:

 

1. the wildlings are south of the Wall
2. there is no Stark in Winterfell
3. the Stark bastard Lord Commander of the Nights Watch has been assassinated
4. the Targaryen with dragons has not invaded Westeros

It's inspiring how much work you've put into this. Kudos!

All I have to reply with is that I would be especially disappointed if this theory turns out to be true. I am biased however, in that I am not a big fan of Marvel, or even time-travel. That said, if Bran has been manipulating time, it creates such mayhem I think my brain may explode.

[Melifeather]

1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

I do very strongly feel there's no substantive evidence of "our" Bran altering events in the past or in the future. I think that the world is as it is and that the story is the one laid out in the synopsis.

I think what I have supplied is substantive evidence, and as I work my way through the other 26 chapters I'm sure I will come up with even more. Those chapters were written specifically for us to contemplate over the symbolism and I have provided the reason why. Those are our clues that in the present tense east is west and west is east. North is south and north of the Wall is upside down. The people currently alive in these areas will repeat their mirrored counterparts lives, but the outcomes will be different. Sandor Clegane and Arya are an example of a differing outcome as I believe they are the through the looking glass version of Arthur Dayne and Lyanna. Arya may be similar to Lyanna, but Sandor is the complete opposite of Arthur. I think what I propose follows GRRM's synopsis quoted at the beginning of this thread:

The greatest danger of all, however, comes from the north, from the icy wastes beyond the Wall, where half-forgotten demons out of legend, the inhuman others, raise cold legions of the undead and the neverborn and prepare to ride down on the winds of winter to extinguish everything that we would call "life." The only thing that stands between the Seven Kingdoms and and endless night is the Wall, and a handful of men in black called the Night's Watch. Their story will be the heart of my third volume, The Winds of Winter. The final battle will also draw together characters and plot threads left from the first two books and resolve all in one huge climax.

Young Bran will come out of his coma, after a strange prophetic dream, only to discover that he will never walk again. He will turn to magic, at first in the hope of restoring his legs, but later for its own sake.

Bran will turn to magic for its own sake. What do you think that means if not to change the future?

[Meanders with Daggers]

16 hours ago, e1kabong said:

I'm not entirely sure that the pact of Ice and Fire is related to the White Walkers (with a few tinfoil hat exceptions, one of which I'll talk about below). For one thing, to follow the train of thought logically, then White Walkers should be waning, not growing stronger (ie - pact realized, balance restored, etc.). Also, the wonky seasons occurred before this pact and after the fulfillment of the pact, so tying it to another Long Night set-up is a stretch. 

Definitely a stretch, if it's the same magic source, which I don't think it is. What I mean is I don't think the magic of the Targs is the same as the magic of the Starks, and further I don't think the Others would share the pact. I think they're in their own element and will do whatever they do regardless of a pact between southern lords (by southern I mean south of the wall). In other words, just because there was a pact between two great houses, it doesn't mean that pact will affect everything.

[Black Crow]

37 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

Bran will turn to magic for its own sake. What do you think that means if not to change the future?

I think that it means exactly what it says, no more no less - and that the synopsis is a linear one.