Daredevil series 2: spoiler thread

[mormont]

2 hours ago, polishgenius said:

Thinking back on it, the finale was a mess for all sorts of reasons. It's not just that Frank's contribution was so derisory and awkwardly tied in (why was he even there in the first place?), but the convicted murderer of criminals just gave the guy who's spent the series fighting to be differentiated from him an openly accepted assist-by-rifle in full view of the cops and media of New York and this had no apparent consequences at all for DD.

Well, that's the other bit I... didn't hate, but which was particularly silly.

"We can do this, Elektra. Not Stick's way, but our way."

*Elektra stabs dozens of ninjas in the eye*

*Punisher blows remaining ninjas away with highpowered sniper rifle*

*Matt chucks Nobu off rooftop to what he must imagine is their death*

"I'm so glad we did this my way and not the way that bloodthirsty asshole Stick would have done it."

[polishgenius]

1 hour ago, Ran said:

That at least was answered: we saw him turning on the police scanner as one of the first things he does after taking over Blacksmith's little arsenal. Obviously he heard what was going on, what with the police calling for backup and spotlights on the roof and so on, realized it was "Red", and went to help.

Yeah, I mean I got that he was just deciding to help Red out, it just seemed so awfully contrived, the absolute flimsiest reason.


 

 

2 minutes ago, mormont said:

Well, that's the other bit I... didn't hate, but which was particularly silly.

"We can do this, Elektra. Not Stick's way, but our way."

*Elektra stabs dozens of ninjas in the eye*

*Punisher blows remaining ninjas away with highpowered sniper rifle*

*Matt chucks Nobu off rooftop to what he must imagine is their death*

"I'm so glad we did this my way and not the way that bloodthirsty asshole Stick would have done it."

Yeah, that was another thing- for a guy who's so vehemently against killing he's perfectly fine with other people killing in his cause. Even leaving aside the question of whether he knew Nobu would die.

[Morpheus]

I think the Black Sky and Hand stuff clearly suffered from changing show runners. Elektra as BS ran contrary to that whole thing with the kid in season one.

As far far as the question to kill or not to kill, the weirdest moment for me was on the boat where DD suddenly says, "we can do it your way, just this once!" After spending last season agonizing over whether or not to kill Fisk and deciding not to, The Blacksmith is a big enough threat for him to consider breaking his code?

[HexMachina]

1 hour ago, polishgenius said:

Yeah, I mean I got that he was just deciding to help Red out, it just seemed so awfully contrived, the absolute flimsiest reason.


 

 

Yeah, that was another thing- for a guy who's so vehemently against killing he's perfectly fine with other people killing in his cause. Even leaving aside the question of whether he knew Nobu would die.

Like the Russian in season 1 and all those people he whacks around the head with considerable force...it's rather fortunate for him if none of them died yet.

[mormont]

41 minutes ago, HelenaExMachina said:

Like the Russian in season 1 and all those people he whacks around the head with considerable force...it's rather fortunate for him if none of them died yet.

I can handwave that happily, because hey, that's the logic of the source material. Being beaten into unconsciousness isn't dangerous in comics, or in most films or TV for that matter. You just wake up unharmed some plot-convenient time later.

But the situation with Nobu is constructed very much as DD deliberately killing him.

[Winterfell is Burning]

You guys are forgetting DD is fighting ninjas that can literally resurrect. The "can't kill them" thing isn't that hard, since they can be back anyway- in fact, I doubt Matt didn't expect Nobu to do it again.

[mormont]

Nope, didn't forget that. I think you might have forgotten that DD is openly disbelieving about the idea that the Hand can come back from death, though.

[red snow]

19 hours ago, mormont said:

 

But the situation with Nobu is constructed very much as DD deliberately killing him.

I was actually hoping the Punisher would head-shot Nobu in a "Let me be the monster, not you" way. I also took this scene as DD deliberately killing. Although to be fair it was the second time he'd done so as he threw him off a similar height a few episodes before hand.

You'd think he'd start wondering how Nobu keeps coming back but ironically Stick has probably maintained DD's skepticism about dark forces etc.

Having finished season 2 I have to say I enjoyed it a lot. Punisher was excellent and if NEtflix aren't considering making a spin-off around him they are missing an opportunity. I like Mormont's take on him being a working class anti-hero. Bernthal was excellent at being down to Earth yet still terrifying.

I didn't quite get the love for Fisk last season (I loved the performance but not the character). This season, I was converted (I also love that his role in this season was a genuine surprise and not spoiled). He is far more menacing in prison and his interaction with the Punisher and Daredevil were highlights of the season. I was left wanting more which was a stark improvement over season 1.

Elektra wasn't as good as the Punihser but her story is nowhere near as grounded and her comic counterpart isn't amazing if I'm honest. The actress did a good job though.

I thought the DD and law angle was balanced quite well probably because it was used to develop Foggy, Karen and the Punisher.

Poor Clancy Brown, getting to play an evil soldier. Unfortunate casting as I immediately thought "he's going to be bad" (in fairness Clancy Brown is always a villain but moreso when a soldier).

Having just watched BvS, I'm left wondering how it could have benefitted from a few extra hours to let the story unfold. Could never do it on a TV budget though.

 

[Howdyphillip]

On 3/25/2016 at 5:17 AM, mormont said:

Finished last night. I have many thoughts (I always do) but here are a few things I loved and a few I hated.

Bernthal as the Punisher was fantastic. A lot's been said about his performance but there's an aspect I want to pick up on. To me, Bernthal-Punisher feels like a thing I haven't seen very much in comics, or at all in film: a proper working-class hero. I mean, not just in his background, but in his demeanour, his attitude to life, to what he does, and to authority. The things he values and the way he goes about his business.

In theory, DD should be that: he has the most working-class background you can imagine, orphan son of a boxer from Hell's Kitchen. But because Matt's a lawyer, a university-educated professional, and because he's always been written and acted by nice middle-class boys, he very much comes over as middle-class. In fact, that's one of the problems of the association with Hell's Kitchen - DD can come over as whatever the class equivalent of a White Saviour is, helping out the poor from his position of relative privilege.

Bernthal-Punisher felt, to me, very believable as a working-class guy who enlists (and then finds he has a talent for killing), which is what the Punisher should be. I loved that.

I also liked Karen a lot more in this series. I said before that I felt Deborah Ann Woll's performance was not the best in series 1 but this series she really stepped it up a huge amount, helped by much better writing. She didn't feel like an add-on, but got plots where she could stand on her own. I loved Karen this time around, and her becoming an investigative journalist was a logical and smart character progression. And her telling Matt off was a pleasure.

Minor annoying point: what is it with this series and costumes? OK, DD was wearing his throughout, which was good. But Elektra gets her proper costume for about five minutes and the Punisher gets his onscreen for a nanosecond. Guys, you advertised the series on the back of these costumes, and rightly so, because they look great! Why not actually show them off? Might be an idea.

That climactic battle... oh dear. Some good stuff, but some huge disappointments and some clunky bits. Killer ninjas standing around doing nothing so Matt and Elektra can Have A Moment. (Twice.) The police standing around doing nothing for the entire scene, because they don't have helicopters or snipers or SWAT teams in New York. Punisher's entire contribution being to show up and snipe a couple of ninjas Matt would otherwise have taken out in moments anyway. Seriously, did Bernthal had a scheduling conflict that day? I actually said aloud, 'that's it?' I understand why he's there from a storytelling point of view but to have him make such a token contribution was pointless.

Also not a fan of the whole 'Black Sky' retcon (and they've clearly changed their mind about what 'Black Sky' is since series 1). Unnecessary. It would be enough for Elektra to be some sort of Hand plant or supernatural prodigy - having her be, or be believed to be, the Hand's actual god is ridiculous and doesn't fit the earlier hints.

Finally, for now at least: I guess that giant hole in the ground was irrelevant?

 Really nice thoughts here all the way around, and I stand fairly close to you in your entire assessment. The one place I have a departure with you is on the costumes. 

 I personally love this series humanizes the characters so much before they attempt to legitimize a costume for them. Daredevil, as a character works for me because we have seen an entire series last year about the man Matt Murdoch evolving into someone who would wear that outfit. The same goes for Electra and the Punisher this year. 

 If they would have come out in full costume at the beginning of the show, my perception of them would be wrapped around that costume and they would have become caricatures of themselves. As it stands, we see them as human beings first, and then come to an understanding of what makes them hero's/anti-hero's. 

 I personally believe that in Nolan's Batman's series, the reason that the Dark Knight was so compelling and realistic to us is that we saw a great deal of the humanity of Bruce Wayne in the first movie before we saw him don the bat suit. Daredevil employs a very similar method, and in both cases, I find it extremely successful. 

 

[protar]

On 25/03/2016 at 1:13 PM, Morpheus said:

I think the Black Sky and Hand stuff clearly suffered from changing show runners. Elektra as BS ran contrary to that whole thing with the kid in season one.

How so? Even in S1 Nobu claims that there are multiple Black Skies, they're just very rare. 

[HexMachina]

1 hour ago, protar said:

How so? Even in S1 Nobu claims that there are multiple Black Skies, they're just very rare. 

In season 2 though it seems like (or this was the way it came across to me) there is only one Black Sky, singular. As though Elektra herself is who they have been searching for (though I guess there are multiple Black Sky's, since the Hand is meant to be ancient and Elektra is young. Maybe one per lifetime?)

[RumHam]

Weren't those creepy kids in the hospital who killed the nurse also potential Black Skies?

[mormont]

4 hours ago, Howdyphillip said:

If they would have come out in full costume at the beginning of the show, my perception of them would be wrapped around that costume and they would have become caricatures of themselves. As it stands, we see them as human beings first, and then come to an understanding of what makes them hero's/anti-hero's.

I'm not suggesting they should've been in costume from their first appearance (apart from anything else, that wouldn't make internal sense). But there's a middle ground where you can establish a character and then give them their costume at some point before their final appearance, which makes no more sense than their first appearance.

[Howdyphillip]

10 minutes ago, mormont said:

I'm not suggesting they should've been in costume from their first appearance (apart from anything else, that wouldn't make internal sense). But there's a middle ground where you can establish a character and then give them their costume at some point before their final appearance, which makes no more sense than their first appearance.

 I can see your point here, but I still think that the costume reveals are thematically similar to each other in this show, and when we finally do see them in costume, they have earned it from a logical perspective. It could have been done a bit sooner, but waiting for the finale also gives us an uplifting note to go out on. 

[Martini Sigil]

1 hour ago, RumHam said:

Weren't those creepy kids in the hospital who killed the nurse also potential Black Skies?

I was under the impression that they were there to sacrifice themselves for the Black Sky....but I've been wrong about things I was more sure of than this.

[Jace, Extat]

I was on a bit of a bender when I watched Season 1, so can someone tell me if this show has always been shitty or did it fall off a cliff?

[Mladen]

2 minutes ago, Pony Queen Jace said:

I was on a bit of a bender when I watched Season 1, so can someone tell me if this show has always been shitty or did it fall off a cliff?

Well, even though I have some issues with Season 2 like Matt's absence from Castle trial, lack of cohesiveness in two major stories, undeveloped Elektra storyarc, this show is very, very far from being shitty. Like, light years far.

 

3 hours ago, HelenaExMachina said:

In season 2 though it seems like (or this was the way it came across to me) there is only one Black Sky, singular. As though Elektra herself is who they have been searching for (though I guess there are multiple Black Sky's, since the Hand is meant to be ancient and Elektra is young. Maybe one per lifetime?)

The fact they were ready to excavate her body and that apparently it wasn't insurmountable obstacle, I would bet all my money that this war is far from over. But since I am truly lost at what Black Sky is supposed to be (please no one disappoints me with the answer like "really good assassin" ) so it may be some life-force, spirit or whatever... I have no idea here  

[HexMachina]

3 hours ago, RumHam said:

Weren't those creepy kids in the hospital who killed the nurse also potential Black Skies?

I'm not sure exactly what they were, but I think they are dead now. My understanding is they were drained of life to make the giant vase work. And at the same time dosed with something so that if they did escape they would come back/want to come back

37 minutes ago, Pony Queen Jace said:

I was on a bit of a bender when I watched Season 1, so can someone tell me if this show has always been shitty or did it fall off a cliff?

What Risto said. It had its issues but it was far from shitty. I actually liked it more than season one (probably because I found Fisk really dull as a villain last season)

[Jace, Extat]

Well, I'm only on episode 3 but I'm finding the quality of acting from everyone outside of Punisher and Murdock to be absolutely horrendous (Shane isn't even good, but I get a kick out of him in all of his stuff), it's not even easy to blame the actors because the dialogue is 'Attack of the Clones' level bad. I don't recall this being an issue in season 1, also it all feels extremely low-budget (like bad low-budget) which, again, wasn't something I felt in Season 1.

That said, just watched the stairwell sequence and in its own way it was almost better than the hallway rescue from Season 1. I hope it gets back on track, 'cause I do like the show.

I liked Foggy last year, but I feel like he's being played by a 10th grader this time around.

[The BlackBear]

On 24/03/2016 at 1:13 PM, Morpheus said:

I think the Black Sky and Hand stuff clearly suffered from changing show runners. Elektra as BS ran contrary to that whole thing with the kid in season one.

Not necessarily, it was never said there would be only one Black Sky at a time.