(Possible Spoiler) Jon Snow and Barristan Selmy

[DirewolfDubz]

This has probably been covered elsewhere but I cant find anything

If R+L=J is true which I believe it will be, Would is be possible that Barristan Selmy could potentially know something of it? But if he did would he not tell Daenerys?

[Ser Crow]

I don't think Barristan would know anything. If I recall correctly, he was never in a position to see anything relating to R+L=J. (He was at the tourney at Harrenhal, but what could he have really seen besides the crowning of Lyanna.)

[7-KG]

If he knew, we would get some clues from his POV, in which there aren't any IIRC.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

He did see Rhaegar post ToJ, and rode with him to the Trident. There is a chance he knows something, though I doubt he knows Jon is their son. He might however know that they were married. Or that she was pregnant. I mean if Rhaegar had said she is with child, and then he finds out later Lyanna died. He would logically assume her child died with her. I mean unless Rhaegar had said she is with child and is full term. he might then wonder. But if say he just said she is pregnant, he would assume the baby is dead too. 

If he had married Lyanna Barristan may know of it, but never mentioned it because frankly it would be pointless, after all they are all dead, and Robert is now his King, makes no sense to mention anything which would upset him. 

When you think about it Jaime is also in a position to have been aware of these things too, he was a KG and we know he saw Rhaegar before he rode for the Trident.

But people really don't like it when you raise these possibilities. 

 

 

 

[Ser Knute]

If Ser Barristan knows anything about Jon, I'd find it odd he didn't seek him out instead of being shipped to Dany, which is a curious happenstance in and of itself... he disguised himself and hides out inKL for a while then appears to have visited his old pal Illyrio... wait what?

Varys: say there old chap, don't fancy fishing all day in retirement?  Oh I have a dear friend you should meet... 

How'd that all really go down?

I think Selmy is clueless about Jon.

[Ser Crow]

10 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

He did see Rhaegar post ToJ, and rode with him to the Trident. There is a chance he knows something, though I doubt he knows Jon is their son. He might however know that they were married. Or that she was pregnant. I mean if Rhaegar had said she is with child, and then he finds out later Lyanna died. He would logically assume her child died with her. I mean unless Rhaegar had said she is with child and is full term. he might then wonder. But if say he just said she is pregnant, he would assume the baby is dead too. 

If he had married Lyanna Barristan may know of it, but never mentioned it because frankly it would be pointless, after all they are all dead, and Robert is now his King, makes no sense to mention anything which would upset him. 

When you think about it Jaime is also in a position to have been aware of these things too, he was a KG and we know he saw Rhaegar before he rode for the Trident.

But people really don't like it when you raise these possibilities. 

 

 

 

I don't think Rhaegar told anyone about his (possible) marriage, or Lyanna's pregnancy who didn't need to know. He had his three kingsgaurd at the TOJ, and to me it seems he would want to keep the circle of people who know everything as small as possible. That being said, it's possible for Rhaegar to have told Barristan something on the way to the Trident. Do you think he told all the members of the kingsgaurd?

I've never thought about Jaime knowing anything about R+L=J,although I think it unlikely, it's an interesting thought. 

[DirewolfDubz]

36 minutes ago, Ser Knute said:

If Ser Barristan knows anything about Jon, I'd find it odd he didn't seek him out instead of being shipped to Dany, which is a curious happenstance in and of itself... he disguised himself and hides out inKL for a while then appears to have visited his old pal Illyrio... wait what?

Varys: say there old chap, don't fancy fishing all day in retirement?  Oh I have a dear friend you should meet... 

How'd that all really go down?

I think Selmy is clueless about Jon.

That never even crossed my mind about if he would have had a hunch he would have probably tracked down Jon, The thing with Jaime I considered before but completely forgot about there, even if they don't know I just wonder if they have ever thought of it, everyone knows how honourable Ned was and him coming home from the war with a son and Lyanna being off with Rhaegar surely someone has to be questioning it

[Arrow of the Morning]

Probably  Rhaegar didn't told to Barristan (or anyone else) about his marriage with Lyanna or that she was pregnant. His wife was taken hostage by his won father and he probably didn't wanted to the same happened with Lyanna (sister of one of the rebel leaders and betrothed to other one) and so he maintained total secrecy. Also, Barristan is a member of the Kingsguard, and a Kingsguard doesn't ask explanations for their kings or princes, so probably he never asked about her. But, he probably know some information about her kidnap, Brandona rrest and execution ans some other details of the Robert Revolution and can give us some of these crumbs. 

 

[Ser Knute]

6 hours ago, DirewolfDubz said:

That never even crossed my mind about if he would have had a hunch he would have probably tracked down Jon, The thing with Jaime I considered before but completely forgot about there, even if they don't know I just wonder if they have ever thought of it, everyone knows how honourable Ned was and him coming home from the war with a son and Lyanna being off with Rhaegar surely someone has to be questioning it

True enough.  I just wonder if Selmy was part of Rhaegar's inner circle like Dayne & Martell were... seems he wasn't so far, but who knows?

[King Viserys Targaryen IV]

If Barristan knows anything about a secret Targaryen it is about Tyrion

[kissdbyfire]

6 minutes ago, Ser Knute said:

True enough.  I just wonder if Selmy was part of Rhaegar's inner circle like Dayne & Martell were... seems he wasn't so far, but who knows?

I don't think he was, despite what he says in Dance, about Rhaegar loving Lyanna and thousands dying b/c of that.

[Beautiful Bloody Sword]

8 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

He did see Rhaegar post ToJ, and rode with him to the Trident. There is a chance he knows something, though I doubt he knows Jon is their son. He might however know that they were married. Or that she was pregnant. I mean if Rhaegar had said she is with child, and then he finds out later Lyanna died. He would logically assume her child died with her. I mean unless Rhaegar had said she is with child and is full term. he might then wonder. But if say he just said she is pregnant, he would assume the baby is dead too. 

If he had married Lyanna Barristan may know of it, but never mentioned it because frankly it would be pointless, after all they are all dead, and Robert is now his King, makes no sense to mention anything which would upset him. 

When you think about it Jaime is also in a position to have been aware of these things too, he was a KG and we know he saw Rhaegar before he rode for the Trident.

But people really don't like it when you raise these possibilities. 

 

 

 

I think Jaime has some repressed memory issues from during those times that he "went away inside". I  think he knows a lot more than even he, himself, believes he does. And it was odd how both Jaime and Tyrion went out of their way to take Jon's measure and have some interaction with him when the King visited Winterfell early on in AGOT. They both may have had their suspicions about Jon.

[AryaGonnaEatThatDeadFatGuy]

12 minutes ago, Beautiful Bloody Sword said:

... And it was odd how both Jaime and Tyrion went out of their way to take Jon's measure and have some interaction with him when the King visited Winterfell early on in AGOT. They both may have had their suspicions about Jon.

This could also fit in with both of them wanting to see the proof that even Ned Stark could forget his honor

I think if either of them had their suspicions they would have made a wise crack about how Jon didn't look like they expected

[Melisandre's White Pubes]

I'm sure that Selmy suspects that Jon Snow is really the child of Lyanna and Rhaegar, like most politically aware people alive at that time, but like the others, knows it's meaningless as it's impossible to prove and he's joined the Watch so it doesn't matter anyway.

[PyroclasticFlow]

I got me some preparation h for this ass of ice and fire I been suffering from 

 

[ShadowLiberal]

4 hours ago, King Viserys Targaryen IV said:

If Barristan knows anything about a secret Targaryen it is about Tyrion

Certainly this. I've been suspecting Ser Barristan might reveal this when Tyrion meets him or Dani.

Though if he has any suspicions that Lyanna had a child, he may not know for certain that it was Jon. He would also have no proof. However he might only know that there's only one person left alive who was at the Tower of Joy who might know the truth and have proof of it. He might tell Dani to seek out Howland Reed if she wants to find other dragons.

[purple-eyes]

How come rhaegar told Selma about Lyanna's pregnancy and child? 

He took so much trouble to keep secrecy. He even forced three kg stay at toj in order to make them stay away from aerys and keep mouth shut. 

 It is impossible that he told Selmy that lyanna had a child for him. 

 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

I think it is a huge assumption that Rhaegar was keeping Lyanna a secret from his family. What evidence do we have of that? After all, everyone knew that he and she were somewhere together. The natural assumption would be they are having sex. It is no secret at all that he is with her. 

And somehow Aerys knew where to send Hightower when he wanted Rhaegar to return to KL. Meaning there has to be some level of communication between Rhaegar and someone in KL. 

The secret was where they were, this was a secret from Robert & Ned, and it is assumed from Aerys too. But as I pointed out somebody knew. And again somebody told Ned where to find his sister. Aerys in dead, Rhaella is on Dragon Stone, Elia is dead. But who was still alive? Barristan Selmy & Jaime Lannister. Both KG's and both saw Rhaegar after he returned to KL from the ToJ. It seems perfectly plausible that Barristan might have been told by Rhaegar where Lyanna was and have given Ned the information. Is there anything to prove that; no, but there is no evidence at all as to who told him. People frequently assume Ashara but there is nothing in text to indicate this either. yet somehow it is far more widely accepted as plausible. 

Barristan does not tell us either through his own internal monalogue in his POV chapters nor through his discussions with Danaerys. But he certainly hints at knowledge about Rhaegar & Lyanna when he tells Dany he loved HIS Lady Lyanna, that tiny little word - his, it indicates so much. 

Bear in mind that GRRM is writing a story in which the reader is not directly told Jon is Lyanna & Rhaegar's son. And in universe it is important that no one uncovers it before the story is at the appropriate point. BUT that as a pivotal plot point it does need to be able to be corroborated. So someone has to be able to confirm certain aspects of their relationship.

the logical thing to do is ask yourself which living characters were around and could feasibly have some pieces of the Jon Jigsaw. 

We know from the start that Howland Reed is one. 

who else remains who was around. in my view the remaining KG are the obvious answer, Jon Connington being another. 

Wylla the wet nurse 

Varys

Secondly you have to wonder if there may be characters who we do not yet know where around. My own theory is a squire. Who would be in a position to have been directly at the ToJ and a first hand witness. 

This gives us, Howland who knows Jon is Lyanna's child and Ned took him and raised him as his son. A squire who was witness to the events, possibly including a wedding, two KG member's who can confirm Rhaegar told them he married Lyanna, and a wet nurse who can corroborate that Jon travelled with Ned to WF and was raised in secret. So Barristan and or Jaime wouldn't know she was pregnant, explaining why neither seems suspicious of Jon, but they can confirm they were married, the Squire can tell the entire story and Howland and Wylla can back up that Jon is that child. I found it interesting that Barristan only met up with the royal party later, he never went to WF and so never saw Jon with his own eyes, and Maester Aemon was blind. meaning that two people familiar with Rhaegars look never set eyes on him. of course Jaime and Cersei knew Rhaegar personally too, and neither click on but I do often wonder if he has some feature of his fathers which may be recognisable once the truth is revealed?

As to why Barristan went to Dany. It seems obvious that Varys sent him to Illyrio and it seems obvious that Barristan regrets accepting a pardon from Robert, and at this stage believes the Targaryen's belong on the IT. So if he knew about Jon he'd not have headed to Dany, so he can not know. This is why I rule out him having known she was expecting/how far along she was.  But for certain there is possibility that he was aware Rhaegar married her. to rule that out based on him not having mentioned it yet is just daft. That is like saying, R+L can't =J because Ned never thought about it in his POV. Not everything a POV knows can be revealed to the reader straight away or else there would be no mystery. 

Just to be straight I am not arguing he does know anything, only that it is completely possible, and that people dismiss the idea way too lightly. I think it actually makes a lot of sense for him to have some knowledge. 

 

 

 

[HexMachina]

5 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

I think it is a huge assumption that Rhaegar was keeping Lyanna a secret from his family. What evidence do we have of that? After all, everyone knew that he and she were somewhere together. The natural assumption would be they are having sex. It is no secret at all that he is with her. 

And somehow Aerys knew where to send Hightower when he wanted Rhaegar to return to KL. Meaning there has to be some level of communication between Rhaegar and someone in KL. 

The secret was where they were, this was a secret from Robert & Ned, and it is assumed from Aerys too. But as I pointed out somebody knew. And again somebody told Ned where to find his sister. Aerys in dead, Rhaella is on Dragon Stone, Elia is dead. But who was still alive? Barristan Selmy & Jaime Lannister. Both KG's and both saw Rhaegar after he returned to KL from the ToJ. It seems perfectly plausible that Barristan might have been told by Rhaegar where Lyanna was and have given Ned the information. Is there anything to prove that; no, but there is no evidence at all as to who told him. People frequently assume Ashara but there is nothing in text to indicate this either. yet somehow it is far more widely accepted as plausible. 

Barristan does not tell us either through his own internal monalogue in his POV chapters nor through his discussions with Danaerys. But he certainly hints at knowledge about Rhaegar & Lyanna when he tells Dany he loved HIS Lady Lyanna, that tiny little word - his, it indicates so much. 

Bear in mind that GRRM is writing a story in which the reader is not directly told Jon is Lyanna & Rhaegar's son. And in universe it is important that no one uncovers it before the story is at the appropriate point. BUT that as a pivotal plot point it does need to be able to be corroborated. So someone has to be able to confirm certain aspects of their relationship.

the logical thing to do is ask yourself which living characters were around and could feasibly have some pieces of the Jon Jigsaw. 

We know from the start that Howland Reed is one. 

who else remains who was around. in my view the remaining KG are the obvious answer, Jon Connington being another. 

Wylla the wet nurse 

Varys

Secondly you have to wonder if there may be characters who we do not yet know where around. My own theory is a squire. Who would be in a position to have been directly at the ToJ and a first hand witness. 

This gives us, Howland who knows Jon is Lyanna's child and Ned took him and raised him as his son. A squire who was witness to the events, possibly including a wedding, two KG member's who can confirm Rhaegar told them he married Lyanna, and a wet nurse who can corroborate that Jon travelled with Ned to WF and was raised in secret. So Barristan and or Jaime wouldn't know she was pregnant, explaining why neither seems suspicious of Jon, but they can confirm they were married, the Squire can tell the entire story and Howland and Wylla can back up that Jon is that child. I found it interesting that Barristan only met up with the royal party later, he never went to WF and so never saw Jon with his own eyes, and Maester Aemon was blind. meaning that two people familiar with Rhaegars look never set eyes on him. of course Jaime and Cersei knew Rhaegar personally too, and neither click on but I do often wonder if he has some feature of his fathers which may be recognisable once the truth is revealed?

As to why Barristan went to Dany. It seems obvious that Varys sent him to Illyrio and it seems obvious that Barristan regrets accepting a pardon from Robert, and at this stage believes the Targaryen's belong on the IT. So if he knew about Jon he'd not have headed to Dany, so he can not know. This is why I rule out him having known she was expecting/how far along she was.  But for certain there is possibility that he was aware Rhaegar married her. to rule that out based on him not having mentioned it yet is just daft. That is like saying, R+L can't =J because Ned never thought about it in his POV. Not everything a POV knows can be revealed to the reader straight away or else there would be no mystery. 

Just to be straight I am not arguing he does know anything, only that it is completely possible, and that people dismiss the idea way too lightly. I think it actually makes a lot of sense for him to have some knowledge. 

 

 

 

Very nicely presented argument. I was a bit sceptical at first simp,y because he never seems to dwell on it in his POV or suggest he knows to Dany, but the way you present it here makes me realise that yeah, it's definitely still a possibility  

[Ivan Tsarevich]

17 hours ago, Beautiful Bloody Sword said:

I think Jaime has some repressed memory issues from during those times that he "went away inside". I  think he knows a lot more than even he, himself, believes he does. And it was odd how both Jaime and Tyrion went out of their way to take Jon's measure and have some interaction with him when the King visited Winterfell early on in AGOT. They both may have had their suspicions about Jon.

Jaime and Jon met in the books?