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Lack of POV perspective regarding Daenerys


Traverys

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I've always had the hunch that the POVs actually form part of a weir network of memories, the weir network consisting of Westerosi people, all interconnected somehow. So we don't get Essos povs. Could be wrong. 

I liked what some here said about Dany's isolation. She isn't really but the lack of POVs makes her seem more isolated to me than any other character. 

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12 hours ago, bloodofthedragon1995 said:

This is the first time I've heard this. I'm struggling to understand how Dany is self-critical and self-loathing. In Meereen it's Dany's way or no way she's arrogant and self-entitled simply because she is the 'blood of the dragon' and 'blood of old Valyria'. I don't think Dany is guilty about Visery's death at all after marrying Khal Drogo all she did was mock and criticise him And if she does well so she should after all she could have intervened in his death but didn't!

Um, no. She recognises that Viserys is never going to take her back to Westeros and probably never would have been able to. She sees the contempt the Dothraki hold him in but tries to shield him from this. She finally stands up to him when he tries to abuse her on the plains. She tries to show him kindness by offering him Dothraki garments and finery, which he spits back at her. She even offers him her dragon eggs to try and placate his ever increasing desperation. And then he threatens to cut her unborn child from inside of her, and you expect her to endanger herself by telling the assembled Dothraki (who are not allies of Drogo remember) not to kill someone who broke one of their most sacred laws? What else was she supposed to do? Once Viserys drew that blade he was dead

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13 hours ago, bloodofthedragon1995 said:

This is the first time I've heard this. I'm struggling to understand how Dany is self-critical and self-loathing. In Meereen it's Dany's way or no way she's arrogant and self-entitled simply because she is the 'blood of the dragon' and 'blood of old Valyria'. I don't think Dany is guilty about Visery's death at all after marrying Khal Drogo all she did was mock and criticise him And if she does well so she should after all she could have intervened in his death but didn't!

At some point in ADWD, she thinks of herself as a monster who only brings harm and destruction (or something along those lines). Of course, in her last chapter she embraces her "fire and blood" nature, so I guess she's done doubting herself.

17 hours ago, Sigella said:

 

But Tyrion did see her during his mock-joust and he thought she was beautiful, did he not? Am I misremembering this?

I believe Tyrion only saw her from afar, and all he could make out was that she was a blond, willowy girl. But GRRM did use the word "beautiful" to describe Dany in interviews, so I think we can take for granted that she's attractive. Still, the lack of POV perspective regarding Dany leads me to wonder if there is something about her physical appearance that we don't know of.

 

Dany is probably the least enjoyable POV for me at this point in the story, and I think it's in part due to her isolation. Maybe it will change if she ever lands in Westeros.

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3 hours ago, Joy Hill said:

(snip)

I believe Tyrion only saw her from afar, and all he could make out was that she was a blond, willowy girl. But GRRM did use the word "beautiful" to describe Dany in interviews, so I think we can take for granted that she's attractive. Still, the lack of POV perspective regarding Dany leads me to wonder if there is something about her physical appearance that we don't know of.

 

Dany is probably the least enjoyable POV for me at this point in the story, and I think it's in part due to her isolation. Maybe it will change if she ever lands in Westeros.

Well, at least we can rule out morbid obesity... :rolleyes:

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18 hours ago, bloodofthedragon1995 said:

This is the first time I've heard this. I'm struggling to understand how Dany is self-critical and self-loathing. In Meereen it's Dany's way or no way she's arrogant and self-entitled simply because she is the 'blood of the dragon' and 'blood of old Valyria'. I don't think Dany is guilty about Visery's death at all after marrying Khal Drogo all she did was mock and criticise him And if she does well so she should after all she could have intervened in his death but didn't!

Have you ever bothered to read her chapters?

There are lot of examples for her self criticism like this is when she locks up her dragons.

Quote

 

What sort of mother lets her children rot in darkness?

 

  If I look back, I am doomed, Dany told herself … but how could she not look back? I should have seen it coming. Was I so blind, or did I close my eyes willfully, so I would not have to see the price of power?

And this from the same chapter.

Quote

Mother of dragons, Daenerys thought. Mother of monsters. What have I unleashed upon the world? A queen I am, but my throne is made of burned bones, and it rests on quicksand

And this

Quote

There is blood on my hands too, and on my heart. We are not so different, Daario and I. We are both monsters

This when news come from Astapor that it is destroyed.

Quote

 

“I know. I know. It is Eroeh all over again.”

 

  Brown Ben Plumm was puzzled. “Who is Eroeh?”

 

  “A girl I thought I’d saved from rape and torment. All I did was make it worse for her in the end. And all I did in Astapor was make ten thousand Eroehs.”

 

  “Your Grace could not have known—”

 

  “I am the queen. It was my place to know"

Like this in Storm..

Quote

 

“Aegon the Conqueror brought fire and blood to Westeros, but afterward he gave them peace, prosperity, and justice. But all I have brought to Slaver’s Bay is death and ruin. I have been more khal than queen, smashing and plundering, then moving on.”

There are more like this and thoughts like these made her to take radical actions like staying in Meereen, locking up her dragons or marrying Hizdahr. You would have known these if you ever had read her chapters without having a biased view.

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On ‎19‎/‎03‎/‎2016 at 11:26 PM, bloodofthedragon1995 said:

This is the first time I've heard this. I'm struggling to understand how Dany is self-critical and self-loathing. In Meereen it's Dany's way or no way she's arrogant and self-entitled simply because she is the 'blood of the dragon' and 'blood of old Valyria'. I don't think Dany is guilty about Visery's death at all after marrying Khal Drogo all she did was mock and criticise him And if she does well so she should after all she could have intervened in his death but didn't!

Quotes such as:-

"If they are monsters, what am I?" 

"In Astapor, I made a horror just as great....",

"It is Eroeh all over again.....a girl I though I'd saved from rape and torment.  All I did was make it worse for her?"

"The thing that surprised her was that she was not surprised " (after hearing about Cleon reintroducing slavery in Astapor).

Then her final dream sequence, where she makes little effort to rebut Viserys' allegations that she is a "murderer"  "betrayer"  "whore."

Her thoughts are filled with self-condemnation.

As to Viserys, she did all that was humanly possible to save him from himself.  And, still she feels guilty that she didn't save him.

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On ‎19‎/‎03‎/‎2016 at 11:26 PM, bloodofthedragon1995 said:

 

HelenaExMachina,

Even in the extremely unlikely event that Khal Drogo could have been persuaded to show mercy to Viserys, there was no way that he could have retained authority over his men, or among other Khals, after his wife had been publicly threatened, without killing him.

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  • 1 year later...
On 18/3/2016 at 6:40 PM, Blind Beth the Cat Lady said:

Re: Viserys

<snip>

- Also notable: In Clash Dany observes that Viserys really took his major turn for the worse after they sold their mother's crown. Dany interprets this as V. losing his last souvenier of Targaryen pride and being driven crazy by the humbling effects of becoming the beggar king. However, I think for Viserys the emphasis there may not have been on "crown" but "mother's". He was old enough to remember their mother and Jaime's account of Rhaella during the last days of Aery's reign gives the impression that she was quite close to her son. Surely her death had a tremendous effect on him, especially with no other close family members around. We don't know what his relationship with Ser Willem Darry might have been. Selling Rhaella's crown probably felt like losing his mother all over again in a way. I think attributing V's rough nature to grief over his mother paints a rather more tragic picture than viewing him as someone going nuts because of his own delusional pride. I also think it's a bit closer to the truth.

<snip>

 

On 18/3/2016 at 7:04 PM, Jak Scaletongue said:

As a mother of a 6 year old - can you imagine being 8 years old and being responsible for a baby?  Yes, he had Darry, and help to do the little things, but still - having help to do the little things only helps to a certain degree when you realize you're responsible for another life!  Can you imagine how frustrating a 5 year old would be to a 13 year old?  A 5 year old is frustrating when you're a grown ass adult - for a 13 year old who's still learning how to cope without Darry, who's NOT a grown ass adult, who's likely barely hit puberty himself?!  I'd say his treatment was around 50/50 - some of it is understandable, I think, given their circumstances.  He was an emotional, hormonal teenager dealing with a child - most adults get reasonably frustrated at children, I think it's safe to say (and even understand) that a hormonal teenager is not going to react appropriately when faced with a frustrating little sister!  So I think it's highly likely that, while there are undeniably horrible things he's done to her (I agree he would have raped her eventually, and he certainly molested her), under the circumstances a lot of frustration and anger between the elder and younger is likely and normal.

<snip>

I agree with these two; Viserys lost all the adults in his life and was then left to take care of a little baby at only 8-years-old. Imagine what that must've been like!

While I agree that a lot of the reasons why Viserys was a total shit to Daenerys is not just because she might've been a rather frustrating child (remember, 8-year-old has to take care of a baby and through Daenerys' memories we do know that she had quite a bit of a sharp tongue and was most likely not the sweet and innocent little girl most of us think when we think of he as a child), but the biggest reason was because of his mother who died giving birth to Daenerys.

By observing what Daenerys says about their mother's crown (the last happiness left Viserys when they sold their mother's crown), we can see that Viserys was very close to his mother, and why wouldn't he? Aerys was mad and if Barristan is an indicator, Rhaella sheltered Viserys from the worst of Aerys' madness and I don't exactly think that Viserys was too close to Rhaegar, Elia and their children, which leaves pretty much only Rhaella.

Viserys' mistreatment of Daenerys, in my opinion, stems mostly from that he blames her for killing Rhaella. Cersei hates and blames Tyrion for killing their mother, Joanna, and that was more than 20 years ago, but her hatred is still strong (and has only grown stronger since she got the valonqar prophecy).

Honestly, I kind of wish that Viserys had grown close to someone and had shared intimate thoughts and past feelings and experiences with whom we could've had a few POV chapters from. I suppose one such character could be Doreah, one of Daenerys' maids, whom Viserys had sex with multiple times, but alas.

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On 3/20/2016 at 4:56 AM, bloodofthedragon1995 said:

This is the first time I've heard this. I'm struggling to understand how Dany is self-critical and self-loathing. In Meereen it's Dany's way or no way she's arrogant and self-entitled simply because she is the 'blood of the dragon' and 'blood of old Valyria'. I don't think Dany is guilty about Visery's death at all after marrying Khal Drogo all she did was mock and criticise him And if she does well so she should after all she could have intervened in his death but didn't!

 

 

Lol did you even read the books or her chapters .

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GRRM has said the story is about dany and not of essos thats why there is no other POV. .

She was supposed to be in westeros by book 3 or book 5 but GRRm cant get into that and lost in the worldbuilding..

But we have Tyrion,Illyrio,Barristan,Jorah,Quentyn,Missandei's views about dany ..

But if we are going to ignore barristan or jorah's both of whom nevee failed to question dany or disagree with her ..then i dont see much to talk about it 

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42 minutes ago, Drogonthedread said:

GRRM has said the story is about dany and not of essos thats why there is no other POV. .

She was supposed to be in westeros by book 3 or book 5 but GRRm cant get into that and lost in the worldbuilding..

But we have Tyrion,Illyrio,Barristan,Jorah,Quentyn,Missandei's views about dany ..

But if we are going to ignore barristan or jorah's both of whom nevee failed to question dany or disagree with her ..then i dont see much to talk about it 

They did question her when she sold Drogon.

Spoiler

Or is that only in the show?

 

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11 minutes ago, Sigella said:

They did question her when she sold Drogon.

  Hide contents

Or is that only in the show?

 

No they did that in the books too 

To which dany comes with the reply 

“I know what Aegon proved. I mean to prove a few things of my own.”

And people often her forget she doesn't know it was barristan the bold but at the time he was Arstan Whitebeard ...and she values his opinions even then.

but its not the only time it happens .i dont expect someone to say they have waited to see is she has a taint or someone like jorah who teaches her things like how commom people doesnt care about game and he was constantly against going through slaver cities...

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On 3/20/2016 at 2:29 AM, Lady Barbrey said:

I liked what some here said about Dany's isolation. She isn't really but the lack of POVs makes her seem more isolated to me than any other character. 

:agree:

Also I think that through her POV we have gotten a pretty solid panorama of the opinions of the folks around her. We all know that Jorah is carrying a really ooky torch for her, that an awful lot of her adversaries have thought she was an incompetent little girl who could be intimidated by testosterone or pressured by scorn, and so on--and while there are some folks who may be behaving inconsistently with their actual thoughts, the suggestion is there, and getting their POVs would probably give things away.

That seems particularly on point. There are some treasons and lies she has reason to expect, and, although she thinks some of them may already be accounted for, she can really only guess (and we can only theorize).

 

As far as her softening recollections of Viserys, I don't think that's so much a sign of madness as just a natural thing that happens a couple years after he's stopped being able to remind her what an abusive prick he was whenever she forgot for a minute.

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On 18/03/2016 at 1:46 PM, SeanF said:

Although Barristan thought that Viserys had the "taint" I never saw particular evidence of madness in him.  Cruelty and selfishness for sure.

"Madness" in Westeros is not psychosis. What they call "madness" involves cruelty and paranoia, or maybe even cruelty and any peculiar personality.

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On 18/03/2016 at 0:41 PM, Traverys said:

But I'm inclined to see him as a plot device to show us the Targaryen madness in present tense.  We see it through Daenerys' eyes and (perhaps) through Illyrio's conversation with Tyrion.  I say perhaps because we have no reason to believe that Illyrio would say anything true to Tyrion, considering that the majority of the plot is instigated through the use of lies (i.e., Littlefinger saying the dagger belongs to Tyrion).  And Varys and Illyrio are playing for keeps.

If that's the case, we'll know more very soon, because Tyrion and Victarion (and Marwyn) are converging on her.

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