The Chthonic Cycle - Part 1-4 - The Persephone, Hades, Demeter and Isis of Winterfell

[Daendrew]

7 minutes ago, evita mgfs said:

Great!  We used to have a thread called Bards of Westeros where members could post poems, limericks, revised lyrics to hit songs, etc.  It makes me wish we still had that thread up and running.  I believe it was in Forum Games.

How clever are you!  I rewrote the Broadway musical lyrics - the entire score and book of Les Miserables was  one of many.

I'd love to read that. Can you link it?

Of course I rewrote these limericks. No plagiarism accusations haha. 

Do you hear the wightses scream? Screaming the songs of angry dead.

 

Sweetsunray, sorry for hijacking your thread. You know I heart you.

/limericks /musicals  

[evita mgfs]

Just now, Daendrew said:

I'd love to read that. Can you link it?

Of course I rewrote these limericks. No plagiarism accusations haha. 

Do you hear the wightses scream? Screaming the songs of angry dead.

Well, here is where they moved everything to Tumblr:

http://shardsofbards.tumblr.com/archive

My musical lyrics have the videos of the numbers from you tube, but you will enjoy many of the great works others have contributed over the years.

I will find a link to my favorite effort - I rewrote Marc Antony's funeral oration with Tormund addressing the crowd.

[sweetsunray]

2 hours ago, Ser Knute said:

Very nice work SS.  Amazing how steeped in mythos the story is.  Some of the revelations trouble me, but only because I've got my own ideas and wishes for characters and the story as a whole as it comes to a conclusion.  I know it's going to be bittersweet but damned if it doesn't seem like even that's an over/under statement.

Thank you

Oh, I know. This type of analysis has changed my understanding of what George is doing eormously. I used to think this or that, but the chthonic revelations made me look at it from a total different light. For example: Ned's damnation of a list of people in the dungeons.

Every time I start one of these essays in the chthonic cycle I have an inkling of some chthonic ties, but as I write it, and dig deeper, I come across such in-story lexicon references I hadn't seen in that way yet, and I end up other ties I hadn't considered yet. For example, I knew Catelyn's first chapter protrays Hades with Persephone, and I knew she transforms to Demeter the Fury (that would be LS) and some other mythological chthonic figures as LS (Norse Hel). I know the Crossroads Inn is tied to Hecate of the Crossroads (moon goddess of magic), and that we can consider Brienne as Hecate helping Demeter in her search for Persephone (and Jaime as Helios). But while writing the essay I noticed the Ice paragraphs, which was a passage I couldn't entirely fit into that life-death comparison the chapter starts out with. Persephone the loving Wife gave me the idea of applying Dustin's speech about a bloody sword being a thing of beauty. And from there it's much esier to see the Isis connection with the missing Ice. 

And yet, even when I know Catelyn is a Demeter figure, I too have to go check my mythological source books and online sources, and then you read the hymn of Demeter and the first line says "of the beautiful hair" and I go like "what?"

I now expect there will be several essays on Catelyn's chthonic connections. The whole Isis connection suddenly makes me understand why George wrote Catelyn as first only having eyes for Bran and then solely in the company of Robb. Bran and Robb are the child and adult version of Horus the Younger. Her memory of Robb at her breast: the iconic image of Isis having Horus at her breast, which was one of the popular images of the Roman Isis cult since Caligula, and the reason why the Pieta (mother Mary with baby Jesus at her breast) is such an iconic image for Christianity. There are myths of Horus the Younger as a child, where he gets gravely ill or has some freak accident and Isis and Thoth protecting the child and healing it. This is Catelyn worrying over Bran's climbing and not leaving his side when he's in a coma. But Isis is also always at her son's side when he's an adult and wages war against Set. Instead of giving Catelyn one son by whose side she is from babe to adult, George split it up across two sons. Beware though with predicting outcomes on these connections. With aGoT and aCoK alone you would come to the conclusion that Robb will win. He doesn't. Adult Horus dies at the RW, and so does Isis-Demeter with her hair as her last thought. However, it does give Bran a chance to become an adult. BTW Horus has a falcon head ... Through Isis we have the flying or bird link for Bran and Sansa. Through Isis we also have the cat link for herself and Arya. One of Isis's daughter was Bastet - the goddess with a cat's head.

 

[evita mgfs]

12 minutes ago, Daendrew said:

I'd love to read that. Can you link it?

Of course I rewrote these limericks. No plagiarism accusations haha. 

Do you hear the wightses scream? Screaming the songs of angry dead.

http://ladyevyta.tumblr.com/post/122762082236/tormund-thunderfist-delivering-jon-snows-funeral

[evita mgfs]

The Cyclops Versus the Mountain that Rides, Ser Gregor Clegane

Note Homer’s description of the Cyclops in the Odyssey:

 

“Here was a giant’s lair who never mixed with others.

A grim loner, dead set on his own lawless ways.

Here was a piece of work, by god, a monster .

Built like no mortal who ever supped on bread,

No, like a shaggy peak, I’d say – a man-mountain

Rearing head and shoulders over the world” (Fagels 9.208-214).

From  Eddard’s POV,  the description of the Mountain that Rides:

“. . . but the knight they called the Mountain that Rides would have towered over Hodor.  He was well over seven feet tall, closer to eight with massive shoulders and arms thick as the trunks of small trees.  His destrier seemed a pony between his armored legs, and the lance he carried looked as small as a broom handle” (AGoT 313).

Homer compares the Cyclops to “a shaggy peak” and “a man-mountain” which corresponds to Martin’s epithet for Ser Gregor Clegane: “the Mountain that Rides” (AGoT 313).  In addition, the Cyclops is so tall, he rears his “head and shoulders over the world”.  Martin’s knight towers “over Hodor”, which places him at “over seven feet tall, closer to eight with his massive shoulders and arms”.

 

[sweetsunray]

1 hour ago, Daendrew said:

It warms my geeky heart to see a theory post, complete with bibliography. 

Tip of the day: "Riverrun" is the first word in Finnegan's Wake by Joyce.

Hehehe, the creation of the lexicon is an idea that I got from LmL when he first started to incorporate such a thing in his essays and theories. And it's actually quite helpful, because it forces you to look at certain words often grouped together. Stone-cold-black/dark is a most common group of words. It appears time and time again. But without even touching Arya's arc even, we already have sowing, needle, facelesness and namelesness. In fact, I suspect that is how George comes up with these images. He just describes the underworld godswood versus the alive garden at RR with his basic set of ideas on dark versus light and senses versus absence of them. He only needs to keep track of these associative words on file or cards and he can pick and choose the ones for say Arya, or Sansa, or Jon, etc. In just the first page of paragaraphs of Catelyn's godswood chapter you already have all the important words for Aray's Needle, her sowing, and the FM. You can actually trace how he probably came up with these ideas in his descriptive writing this way. And if you aspire to writing, well it might give you ideas how to deal with those pesky descriptions that otherwise seem to have no other purpose than well description. 

Mainly though, the lexicon I'm building up is to balance out the idea that this is solely a series attempting to identify mythological figures 1:1 to one of aSoIaF's characters. Sure, I call Lyanna the Persephone of WF crypts and Ned "Hades of WF". Of course they are more than that. I'm just pointing out how much George meticulously worked features and characteristics and background plot into them to tell his own story. If Ned was truly Hades and Lyanna truly Persephone they wouldn't be dead. It's a meta-tie, not an in-world retelling. The lexicon is built not on outside mythological sources, but on George's in-world vocabulary only divided into themes and division of terrestrial, liminal and subterranean. Take out the meta-ties to Persephone, Demeter, Isis, etc and you still have clear death, sterile and life, fertile writing to figure the same things out. The meta-ties to mythologies simply helps to look for the archetypal associations.

"a way a lone a last a loved a long the / riverrun, past Eve and Adam's, from swerve of shore to bend of bay, brings us by a commodius vicus of recirculation back to Howth Castle and Environs." Thanks for the tip!

Why people say that George isn't writing literature is beyond me... he clearly does write literature. He uses ancient homeric and orphic hymns and legends and customs (see the Bear-Maiden song) and rituals to define when he writes what (the ToJ Melinoe nightmare, the Eleusinian Mystery ritual of things said, shown and done). And he does it in such a way that it reads like normal, common pop culture novels. I find that genial. We are a pop culture in a world where a lot of people don't even read anymore. But if you're a geek for classics (from ancient Greece, Dante's Divine Comedy, to Scandinavian fairytales of Andersen, English classic lit of Joyce and Melvin) how can you incorporate it without coming across as either pedantic and snobbish or without retelling a specific mythology (there's a lot of Greek stuff in there, but it certainly is not the sole thing in there). That's the difficult thing. And George succeeds in doing this without you realizing you're actually reading something more than just common descriptions and easy convo between people. He makes it so easy to read, makes it look so not-special, and yet that's exactly what it is. When I read Catelyn's II chapter I never realized that he writes a full page of conversation without ever using the word "said", but the next page he uses it 7 times in speech even. I didn't even think to check for it until I thought of Lysa's box in relation to Demeter - the Eleusinian Mystery. And yet, the fact that he wrote "said" nowhere for a full page in convo, and 7 times afterwards is literary evidence that George pays a lot of attention to his writing. He takes meticulous care of his choice of words in an associative organic way. Sometimes I think that when George reads some literary review of his aSoIaF books as not that exceptional writing, he must be smiling satisfied... because he basically fooled the critic by writing with such care and making it look so unexceptional. When a critic with lots of literary credentials makes that claim, well it says more about that critic than George's writing. It just shows they never cared to look at his writing other than purely functional. It's the embodiment of the reversal of the trope of the emperor's clothes.

To paraphrase Syrio: it looks like a normal, common cat. But oh my, that cat knows a lot more than it lets on.

 

 

[Daendrew]

27 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Hehehe, the creation of the lexicon is an idea that I got from LmL when he first started to incorporate such a thing in his essays and theories. And it's actually quite helpful, because it forces you to look at certain words often grouped together. Stone-cold-black/dark is a most common group of words. It appears time and time again. But without even touching Arya's arc even, we already have sowing, needle, facelesness and namelesness. In fact, I suspect that is how George comes up with these images. He just describes the underworld godswood versus the alive garden at RR with his basic set of ideas on dark versus light and senses versus absence of them. He only needs to keep track of these associative words on file or cards and he can pick and choose the ones for say Arya, or Sansa, or Jon, etc. In just the first page of paragaraphs of Catelyn's godswood chapter you already have all the important words for Aray's Needle, her sowing, and the FM. You can actually trace how he probably came up with these ideas in his descriptive writing this way. And if you aspire to writing, well it might give you ideas how to deal with those pesky descriptions that otherwise seem to have no other purpose than well description. 

Mainly though, the lexicon I'm building up is to balance out the idea that this is solely a series attempting to identify mythological figures 1:1 to one of aSoIaF's characters. Sure, I call Lyanna the Persephone of WF crypts and Ned "Hades of WF". Of course they are more than that. I'm just pointing out how much George meticulously worked features and characteristics and background plot into them to tell his own story. If Ned was truly Hades and Lyanna truly Persephone they wouldn't be dead. It's a meta-tie, not an in-world retelling. The lexicon is built not on outside mythological sources, but on George's in-world vocabulary only divided into themes and division of terrestrial, liminal and subterranean. Take out the meta-ties to Persephone, Demeter, Isis, etc and you still have clear death, sterile and life, fertile writing to figure the same things out. The meta-ties to mythologies simply helps to look for the archetypal associations.

"a way a lone a last a loved a long the / riverrun, past Eve and Adam's, from swerve of shore to bend of bay, brings us by a commodius vicus of recirculation back to Howth Castle and Environs." Thanks for the tip!

Why people say that George isn't writing literature is beyond me... he clearly does write literature. He uses ancient homeric and orphic hymns and legends and customs (see the Bear-Maiden song) and rituals to define when he writes what (the ToJ Melinoe nightmare, the Eleusinian Mystery ritual of things said, shown and done). And he does it in such a way that it reads like normal, common pop culture novels. I find that genial. We are a pop culture in a world where a lot of people don't even read anymore. But if you're a geek for classics (from ancient Greece, Dante's Divine Comedy, to Scandinavian fairytales of Andersen, English classic lit of Joyce and Melvin) how can you incorporate it without coming across as either pedantic and snobbish or without retelling a specific mythology (there's a lot of Greek stuff in there, but it certainly is not the sole thing in there). That's the difficult thing. And George succeeds in doing this without you realizing you're actually reading something more than just common descriptions and easy convo between people. He makes it so easy to read, makes it look so not-special, and yet that's exactly what it is. When I read Catelyn's II chapter I never realized that he writes a full page of conversation without ever using the word "said", but the next page he uses it 7 times in speech even. I didn't even think to check for it until I thought of Lysa's box in relation to Demeter - the Eleusinian Mystery. And yet, the fact that he wrote "said" nowhere for a full page in convo, and 7 times afterwards is literary evidence that George pays a lot of attention to his writing. He takes meticulous care of his choice of words in an associative organic way. Sometimes I think that when George reads some literary review of his aSoIaF books as not that exceptional writing, he must be smiling satisfied... because he basically fooled the critic by writing with such care and making it look so unexceptional. When a critic with lots of literary credentials makes that claim, well it says more about that critic than George's writing. It just shows they never cared to look at his writing other than purely functional. It's the embodiment of the reversal of the trope of the emperor's clothes.

To paraphrase Syrio: it looks like a normal, common cat. But oh my, that cat knows a lot more than it lets on.

 

 

I can't fathom the amount of effort it takes to make it seem so effortless.

 Even when you see what he does, I have no idea how he does it. 

It takes 30 years of not making it to be able to finally make it. And even then the jems invariably lay undiscovered and great books are orphans without a fan-aly.

books are a strange beast because you have to buy them before you know if you'd like them or not and new authors have to compete with a masters of all time for the same reader minutes. You don't buy books, especially longer ones unless you know the author, and you can't know the author unless you have bought their books.  We are condemned to live in House Mothersbasement for all time. 

 books are a strange beast because you have to buy them before you know if you'd like them or not and new authors have to compete with a masters of all time for the same reading hours. 

Masterful authors are like  masterful authors are like rat cooks eat the their own protégés.

my writer friend told me that if you want to make a living as a writer, marry rich.  I'm single. 

[evita mgfs]

AGOT  41  CATELYN  POV  VII

HOMERIC MYTH AND MARTIN

In Catelyn’s VII POV from AGoT, Martin alludes to Greek and Homeric mythology in specific ways.  For example, Martin often opens his POV’s with a passage that establishes the time of day, and morning time is popular, especially since the rising sun announces the beginning of a new day with new opportunities.  Following are the opening sentences of Cat’s POV in which Bronn and Ser Vardis Egen will fight one-on-one combat to establish the fate of the Imp, Tyrion Lannister:

“The eastern sky was rose and gold as the sun broke over the Vale of Arryn. Catelyn Stark watched the light spread, her hands resting on the delicate carved stone of the balustrade outside her window. Below her the world turned from black to indigo to green as dawn crept across fields and forests”.

Martin employs “rose” as a color that paints the sky as a sun breaks over the Vale:  this is visually lovely.  Likewise, Homer established epic conventions in his long poems about the deeds of heroes:  the Iliad and the Odyssey, and one of those conventions is the stock epithet, or word pairings or groupings that are repeated for stylistic effect as well as for a refrain that enables the bard to remember his point in lengthy recitations. 

One Homeric epithet that is well-known and oft referenced is the “rosy fingered Dawn” in which Homer personifies Dawn as having rose-colored fingers that reach out to cover the eastern horizon to pull up the dawn and its sun.  Likewise, Martin mentions the dawn or sunrise in many of his POV’s, and he even uses Homer’s “stock” pink color. 

Even though Martin does not personify the dawn by giving her “fingers”, he does address Catelyn’s hands as they rest on the “stone balustrade outside her window” in the very first sentence following his mention of the rose-colored sunrise.  Both Martin and Homer introduce the dawn to provide transitions between chapters or books, to repeat key words and phrases, and to set up references to the passage of time.

Martin’s  legend featuring Alyssa Arryn and the waterfall Alyssa’s Tears corresponds to the Greek myth about Niobe and her subsequent fate as a weeping “stone” statue.  Here is what Martin tells us:

“Pale white mists rose off Alyssa's Tears, where the ghost waters plunged over the shoulder of the mountain to begin their long tumble down the face of the Giant's Lance. Catelyn could feel the faint touch of spray on her face.

“Alyssa Arryn had seen her husband, her brothers, and all her children slain, and yet in life she had never shed a tear. So in death, the gods had decreed that she would know no rest until her weeping watered the black earth of the Vale, where the men she had loved were buried. Alyssa had been dead six thousand years now, and still no drop of the torrent had ever reached the valley floor far below”.

The story of Niobe is remarkably similar, although the gods punish Niobe for a different offense:  boasting that she is better than a goddess.  I copied and pasted parts of the myth from the Wiki, and I left in some incidental material because I thought that maybe if Martin uses “Niobe” as an inspiration for his legend about Alyssa Arryn, then maybe the Greek pantheon of Olympian godheads may also have characteristics similar to the “old gods” or the “new”?

Niobe

by Anna Baldwin

 

“Niobe is one of the more tragic figures in Greek myth. . . Niobe was the queen of Thebes. . .  married to Amphion, King of Thebes.

“Niobe and Amphion had fourteen children (the Niobids), and in a moment of arrogance, Niobe bragged about her seven sons and seven daughters at a ceremony in honor of Leto . . . She mocked Leto, who only had two children, Apollo, god of prophecy and music, and Artemis, virgin goddess of the wild.

“Leto did not take the insult lightly, and in retaliation, sent Apollo and Artemis to earth to slaughter all of Niobe's children. Apollo killed the seven sons while  . . . Artemis killed the seven daughters with her lethal arrows.

“Niobe's entire family was dead in a matter of minutes. In shock, she cradled the youngest daughter in her arms, then fled to Mt. Siplyon in Asia Minor. There she turned to stone and from the rock formed a stream (the Achelous) from her ceaseless tears. She became the symbol of eternal mourning. . .

“Niobe is weeping even to this day. Carved on a rock cliff on Mt Sipylus is the fading image of a female that the Greeks claim is Niobe . . . Composed of porous limestone, the stone appears to weep as the water after a rain seeps through it . . .

“This myth vividly illustrates the vicious nature of the gods. Often, the gods would strike deadly revenge on mortals merely for acting on human weaknesses”. Leto had Niobe's entire family killed because of an arrogant comment. . . Clearly, the myth of Niobe demonstrates the wrath of both Apollo and Artemis and is a warning to mortals not to compare themselves to the gods.”

One final way in which Martin makes a literary nod to Homer is in the procession of suitors courting Lysa Arryn:  a much more dire situation faces Penelope in Homer’s Odyssey.  Penelope “puts off” 108 suitors for three years, stalling them with a clever ruse that she must finish weaving a burial shroud for her father-in-law.  But only in the “mention” of courtship does Lysa Arryn’s story resemble in any way the virtuous, loyal, and resourceful Penelope who waits for 20 years, always hopeful that her husband Odysseus would return to her.  Unlike Penelope, Lysa Arryn is neither clever nor true; she is also emotionally unstable.

Thus, Martin reveals overtones of Greek mythology, Greek tragedy, and Homeric epics

[sweetsunray]

2 hours ago, evita mgfs said:

Since you gave me leave to share my work regarding the Greek influences on Martin’s novels, I will begin with this small essay before bringing out the big guns.

 

Martin’s TEICHOSKOPIA, OR VIEW FROM THE WALL in ADWD

 

Martin’s VIEW FROM THE WALL in ADwD is seemingly a literary nod to Homer’s TEICHOSKOPIA in the Iliad (lines 121-244).

In Homer’s Iliad, Book 3, Helen joins King Priam of Troy on his Trojan Wall to identify the Argive heroes as they pass; i.e., Odysseus, Menelaos, etc.
Likewise, when Tormund Thunderfist meets Jon Snow at the Wall to lead the wildlings through the gate, the Hornblower identifies the various groups as they pass: hostages [men of renowned], men from Frozen Shore, warriors, etc.

Both Helen and Tormund, through their authors, reveal more about the appearances and personalities of other characters in their works. Furthermore, Martin makes a ‘literary nod’ with irony and humor to Homer with his play on “A View from THE WALL”.

 

Very nice! He uses hymn verses from both Homer, Orpheus as well as Poetic Edda of the Norse mythology worked into a scene (such as Ned under the heart tree of which Osha advizes to listen to what the gods are saying by its rustling... And the oracle of Dodona is referenced in the Illiad by Achilles.

The Wall is also a Norse mythic element. I already mentioned Jotunheimr (beyond the wall) and Asgard. The two worlds were separated by a "never freezing river" in order to function as a natural barrier to prevent the forst giants from invading Asgard. But there's also a castle/fort in Jotunheimr that is protected by a wall. The wall is referenced as a river of ice (a reversal of that Norse mythical river) and it has a castle/fort that is protected from the world of the frost giants. It's not a 1:1 match, but the words and phrases and features are clearly an amalgam of that Norse river and wall.

[sweetsunray]

1 hour ago, evita mgfs said:

The Cyclops Versus the Mountain that Rides, Ser Gregor Clegane

 

Note Homer’s description of the Cyclops in the Odyssey:

 

 

 

“Here was a giant’s lair who never mixed with others.

 

A grim loner, dead set on his own lawless ways.

 

Here was a piece of work, by god, a monster .

 

Built like no mortal who ever supped on bread,

 

No, like a shaggy peak, I’d say – a man-mountain

 

Rearing head and shoulders over the world” (Fagels 9.208-214).

 

From  Eddard’s POV,  the description of the Mountain that Rides:

 

“. . . but the knight they called the Mountain that Rides would have towered over Hodor.  He was well over seven feet tall, closer to eight with massive shoulders and arms thick as the trunks of small trees.  His destrier seemed a pony between his armored legs, and the lance he carried looked as small as a broom handle” (AGoT 313).

 

Homer compares the Cyclops to “a shaggy peak” and “a man-mountain” which corresponds to Martin’s epithet for Ser Gregor Clegane: “the Mountain that Rides” (AGoT 313).  In addition, the Cyclops is so tall, he rears his “head and shoulders over the world”.  Martin’s knight towers “over Hodor”, which places him at “over seven feet tall, closer to eight with his massive shoulders and arms”.

 

 

 

Also a lovely reference. You might want to read my prediction of Sansa's Vale arc: called Sansa and the Giants here, on my blog it's the third essay of the parallelism series "the trail of the red stallion".

The concept of the trail essays was born in the original discussion of my first two chthonic essays (part 1 and 2 here) last fall before the thread was gone. Luckily at the time I had already started my blog by then, so had the essays still, and I have saved the discussion in a word file from the archived forum (that archive link does not seem to work anymore though it seems). Lady Barbrey and others and myself focused on the "red stallion" for a while in the ToJ dream and Lady Dustin's story about it. Meanwhile we were also discussing the fisher king wound with Ned's leg. That's how I got the idea of "red stallion" ends up riderless and the metaphorical concept of betting on the wrong horse. Ned rides out on his favorite horse (which isn't red) and is taken down by it and breaks his leg. In that confrontation Jaime rides a red stallion. Meanwhile that confrontation has many analogies with the ToJ dream confrontation. So, I did "a search of ice and fire" on "horses" and of course ended up with Ned's POV of the Hand's tourney... where we have LF betting on the "wrong horse" (Jaime on his red stallion), but also Gregor being dragged down by his black, horny, unctrollable stallion which he decapitates. That's when it became glaringly obvious that the Gregor-Loras joust is a callback to Lyanna, Robert and Ned and how it ultimately leads to Ned's death. And then when you check the other scenes you find other foreshadowing parallels. So, I went with it for Sansa's POVs of tourneys and the third red stallion essay became a prediction of what will occur in the Vale while Sansa is there. It still has to happen. But again it involves Gregor, the Mountain, the Giant, who slays a knight with colors of House Arryn and all the related Arryn castles (Bloody Gate, Gates of the Moon, Eyrie) and the mountain called "Giant's Lance". I predict there will be a destructive avalanche, and Tyrion will pay his debt to House Arryn via newly arming (as Ser Hugh was newly armed) the Mountain Clans... specifically one-eyed Timett (not just the new arms and armor but also the first-hand experience with Westerosi feudal & Andal Faith society).

The red stallion essays purely rely on in-world parallelism and foreshadowing, but I think your Tyrion-Odysseus Cyclops-Mountain connection certainly make for a a very interesting background to that essay.

[Philokles]

I'm still reading my way through the essays on this thread, but wanted to say, as a Classicist, how nice it is to see ASoIaF analysed from this perspective. So thanks!

[evita mgfs]

2 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Very nice! He uses hymn verses from both Homer, Orpheus as well as Poetic Edda of the Norse mythology worked into a scene (such as Ned under the heart tree of which Osha advizes to listen to what the gods are saying by its rustling... And the oracle of Dodona is referenced in the Illiad by Achilles.

The Wall is also a Norse mythic element. I already mentioned Jotunheimr (beyond the wall) and Asgard. The two worlds were separated by a "never freezing river" in order to function as a natural barrier to prevent the forst giants from invading Asgard. But there's also a castle/fort in Jotunheimr that is protected by a wall. The wall is referenced as a river of ice (a reversal of that Norse mythical river) and it has a castle/fort that is protected from the world of the frost giants. It's not a 1:1 match, but the words and phrases and features are clearly an amalgam of that Norse river and wall.

THANKS!

I have written a few essays that touch upon your Persephone/Demeter/Hades, but since you cover them so well, I am avoiding posting duplicate material.  I do have an essay about Antigone and the importance of giving due respect to all, the dead, not just those who are heroes or patriots.

1 hour ago, sweetsunray said:

Also a lovely reference. You might want to read my prediction of Sansa's Vale arc: called Sansa and the Giants here, on my blog it's the third essay of the parallelism series "the trail of the red stallion".

The concept of the trail essays was born in the original discussion of my first two chthonic essays (part 1 and 2 here) last fall before the thread was gone. Luckily at the time I had already started my blog by then, so had the essays still, and I have saved the discussion in a word file from the archived forum (that archive link does not seem to work anymore though it seems). Lady Barbrey and others and myself focused on the "red stallion" for a while in the ToJ dream and Lady Dustin's story about it. Meanwhile we were also discussing the fisher king wound with Ned's leg. That's how I got the idea of "red stallion" ends up riderless and the metaphorical concept of betting on the wrong horse. Ned rides out on his favorite horse (which isn't red) and is taken down by it and breaks his leg. In that confrontation Jaime rides a red stallion. Meanwhile that confrontation has many analogies with the ToJ dream confrontation. So, I did "a search of ice and fire" on "horses" and of course ended up with Ned's POV of the Hand's tourney... where we have LF betting on the "wrong horse" (Jaime on his red stallion), but also Gregor being dragged down by his black, horny, unctrollable stallion which he decapitates. That's when it became glaringly obvious that the Gregor-Loras joust is a callback to Lyanna, Robert and Ned and how it ultimately leads to Ned's death. And then when you check the other scenes you find other foreshadowing parallels. So, I went with it for Sansa's POVs of tourneys and the third red stallion essay became a prediction of what will occur in the Vale while Sansa is there. It still has to happen. But again it involves Gregor, the Mountain, the Giant, who slays a knight with colors of House Arryn and all the related Arryn castles (Bloody Gate, Gates of the Moon, Eyrie) and the mountain called "Giant's Lance". I predict there will be a destructive avalanche, and Tyrion will pay his debt to House Arryn via newly arming (as Ser Hugh was newly armed) the Mountain Clans... specifically one-eyed Timett (not just the new arms and armor but also the first-hand experience with Westerosi feudal & Andal Faith society).

The red stallion essays purely rely on in-world parallelism and foreshadowing, but I think your Tyrion-Odysseus Cyclops-Mountain connection certainly make for a a very interesting background to that essay.

Thanks again.  I traced the gate/doorway/window motif through AGoT : so much great stuff, and the way Martin employs imagery of the mouth on many occasions.  Sometimes the doorway snaps shut, and in the Cave of Skulls, the doorway has teeth, as do some of the gates.

I wrote something recently about the mare Jon mounts when he decides to desert his position at the Watch.  It has some good horse symbolism I bet you would like, especially since you wrote an entire essay on horses.  I will post that next.

I appreciate this thread as well.  I was searching for such a place where we could post seriously scholastic work.  I was afraid that there would not be an audience - so I am pleased that many other users have visited to pay their respects.

Finally - sanity in the world of ice and fire.

[sweetsunray]

26 minutes ago, evita mgfs said:

THANKS!

I have written a few essays that touch upon your Persephone/Demeter/Hades, but since you cover them so well, I am avoiding posting duplicate material.  I do have an essay about Antigone and the importance of giving due respect to all, the dead, not just those who are heroes or patriots.

Thanks again.  I traced the gate/doorway/window motif through AGoT : so much great stuff, and the way Martin employs imagery of the mouth on many occasions.  Sometimes the doorway snaps shut, and in the Cave of Skulls, the doorway has teeth, as do some of the gates.

I wrote something recently about the mare Jon mounts when he decides to desert his position at the Watch.  It has some good horse symbolism I bet you would like, especially since you wrote an entire essay on horses.  I will post that next.

I appreciate this thread as well.  I was searching for such a place where we could post seriously scholastic work.  I was afraid that there would not be an audience - so I am pleased that many other users have visited to pay their respects.

Finally - sanity in the world of ice and fire.

Well, I appreciate even your personal findings on the chthonic characters such as Persephone, Demeter and Hades. It can work like an inspiration if it takes a slightly different angle at it. Heck, if it's valuable and I skipped it, I tend to incorporate the extra ideas in the updated essay (part 2 was born in part of discussion in the orginal thread I posted here) with reference or thanks to the person who provided the idea/comment/link.

I'd certainly value the Atigone bit. Yes, it was enormously important in Greek culture (Charon didn't help you cross if you were improperly burried, regardless of who you were), as it is in every culture. Heck, it is still one of the features and actions (both desecration as well as ritualising burrial) in antropology to determine whether a species is human or not. What I find interesting is that George seems to make it an advantage for Starks. Oh, you thought to weaken us even in death by refusing to have us properly buried? Actually we are strong alive and dead, because it's our source world anyhow, and if we are not properly buried, you only end up making this place an underworld and extend our domain. That is overall what we see happening in the Riverlands. It starts as a terrial location of life, but it becomes more and more underworldly. When Brienne travels through it in search of Sansa, she's visiting Dante's Inferno and Purgatory. Same for Jaime there. And they are both led to the 9th circle of the betrayers, where Norse Hel (ruler of unnerworld Hel of the mist realm with its 9 rivers) awaits her subjects, aka LS.

The horse scenes are important, not just the red stallion ones (but they usually deserve an extra check-it-out). Theon's horses very much parallel the arc and identity he has at that moment: Smiler -> old knock kneed skeletal starving horse -> a soft unprotesting mare to the hall of Lady Dustin where Jeyne Poole stays until the wedding. There's Dany's "Silver" and of course Drogo does ride a red stallion that ends up riderless. Her scene of the burrial pyre includes a vision of a smoke horse (@LmL calls it the alchemical wedding)... interestingly it has "blue manes". Or there's Sandor's Stranger, and he loses it for a short while during the riot, when he saves Sansa and rides double on her red mare; later Sandor's horse is the gargantuan hint of Sandor being alive and "kicking" at the Quiet Isle and refusing to be "gelded". Jaime starts on a blood bay, that ends up riderless when he's taken prisoner. Later he switches horses a few times too (from RR to KL) and again at RR with his two horses that his squires baptize, amongst one "Honor". Ramsay rides a red stallion called "Blood". The Mad Mouse rides a chestnut horse (also a red horse). Dontos never manages even to get on his red stallion during the gnat-tourney of Joffrey's name day. The Trail of the Red Stallion is just as much an extensive series in progress as the chthonic one, same for everything about bears. 

Windows, gates and doors, towers, bridges, stairs they are all a type of portal place... leading from one type of world to another. Liminal. Not every of those features are chthonic. But usually the surrounding vocabulary gives you an idea what it might be.

[evita mgfs]

4 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Well, I appreciate even your personal findings on the chthonic characters such as Persephone, Demeter and Hades. It can work like an inspiration if it takes a slightly different angle at it. Heck, if it's valuable and I skipped it, I tend to incorporate the extra ideas in the updated essay (part 2 was born in part of discussion in the orginal thread I posted here) with reference or thanks to the person who provided the idea/comment/link.

I'd certainly value the Atigone bit. Yes, it was enormously important in Greek culture (Charon didn't help you cross if you were improperly burried, regardless of who you were), as it is in every culture. Heck, it is still one of the features and actions (both desecration as well as ritualising burrial) in antropology to determine whether a species is human or not.

The horse scenes are important, not just the red stallion ones (but they usually deserve an extra check-it-out). Theon's horses very much parallel the arc and identity he has at that moment: Smiler -> old knock kneed skeletal starving horse -> a soft unprotesting mare to the hall of Lady Dustin where Jeyne Poole stays until the wedding. There's Dany's "Silver" and of course Drogo does ride a red stallion that ends up riderless. Her scene of the burrial pyre includes a vision of a smoke horse (@LmL calls it the alchemical wedding)... interestingly it has "blue manes". Or there's Sandor's Stranger, and he loses it for a short while during the riot, when he saves Sansa and rides double on her red mare; later Sandor's horse is the gargantuan hint of Sandor being alive and "kicking" at the Quiet Isle and refusing to be "gelded". Jaime starts on a blood bay, that ends up riderless when he's taken prisoner. Later he switches horses a few times too (from RR to KL) and again at RR with his two horses that his squires baptize, amongst one "Honor". Ramsay rides a red stallion called "Blood". The Mad Mouse rides a chestnut horse (also a red horse). Dontos never manages even to get on his red stallion during the gnat-tourney of Joffrey's name day. The Trail of the Red Stallion is just as much an extensive series in progress as the chthonic one, same for everything about bears. 

Windows, gates and doors, towers, bridges, stairs they are all a type of portal place... leading from one type of world to another. Liminal. Not every of those features are chthonic. But usually the surrounding vocabulary gives you an idea what it might be.

Did you mention Theon's Smiler?

Hey, where is LML?  I have not seen him around the forum.  I hope he didn't leave.

I will find my mare essay - and look for Antigone.

Thanks. I really appreciate that you take the time to comment and share your remarkable knowledge on the subject.  I know Greek myth, but not so much the other world myths that are influential in Martin's works.  So learning new material is broadening fun, and inspiring.

[evita mgfs]

Symbolic Meanings of Mare

Jon IX from AGoT

Jon Snow’s mount is a mare, a female of the species that figures in breeding and is known as the dame.  Since the bastard often wonders about the woman who gave birth to him, it is fitting that he straddles a mare rather than a stallion.

Aside from the gender of the beast, horses in literature have many symbolic meanings, and their rich history as representative figures in many cultures speaks to Jon Snow and the road he decides to travel in POV IX.

The Symbology of Horse/Mare

The horse is a universal symbol of freedom without restraint, because riding a horse made people feel they could free themselves from their own bindings. Also linked with riding horses, they are symbols of travel, movement, and desire.

·       As the universal symbol of freedom without restraints, the mare plays a  pivotal role in Jon letting go of the “restraints” imposed on him after he says his vows and commits himself and his life to the Night’s Watch.  Riding the mare, Jon hopes to “free” himself from his black “bindings”.  As a symbol of “travel, movement, and desire”, the mare takes Jon away from Castle Black, the vehicle that will transport him toward his “desire” to join his brother Robb in avenging Ned Stark’s death.

The horse also represents power in Native American tribes. Native American tribes that possessed horses often won more battles than those who did not. They also had more territory. The number of horses a tribe possessed was telling of how wealthy they were.

·       Horses are precious commodities for the NW as they are needed for transport, for work, for ranging, for recruiting, and for fighting.

·       The NW is not inordinately wealthy, yet the horses are tended to in good form as they are necessary for daily activities.

Within these cultures and others, the horse is often an emblem of war. 

·       The horses will have roles to play in the future when the brothers go to war with their foes.

In mythology, the horse is ever present. The Romans linked horses with Mars, the god of the fury of war. Horses were also seen pulling the chariot of Helios, the sun god.

·       Even the White Walkers ride on horseback, although the horses they mount have died and are reanimated by a controlling force originating from their masters.

In the Celtic mythology, horses were good luck and were harbingers of good fortune.

·       Although Jon may not feel that his Night’s Watch brothers’ tracking him in the night to prevent him from deserting his post as “good luck” and “good fortune”, that these newly appointed members cared enough to forgo sleep to hunt Jon down and return him before sunrise proves their high regard for Lord Snow.

The white horse, as aforementioned, was sacred to the Celts, and strongly associated with Rhiannon and Epona, who occasionally took the form of a white horse.

·       Celtic mythological figures who take the form of a white horse are similar to Jon Snow’s potential to warg his direwolf Ghost. 

In folk wisdom, if several horses are seen standing together that means a storm is coming.

·       Horses often stand together in the novels.  A storm is coming – “A Storm of Swords”, in which many factions do battle, some on horses, some on the sea.

file:///C:/Users/Owner/Downloads/510b9857f3def9.98104912.pdf

The Mares of Diomedes

“The Mares of Diomedes, also called the Mares of Thrace, were four man-eating horses in Greek mythology. Magnificent, wild, and uncontrollable, they belonged to the giant Diomedes, the king of Thrace . . . Bucephalus, Alexander the Great's horse, was said to be descended from these mares”. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mares_of_Diomedes

·       The fact that Diomedes is a “giant” pertains to Jon’s future relationship with the Free Folk.

·       The fact that Diomedes’ horses ate human flesh may sound unappetizing; however, the prospect that Jon Snow will eat human flesh at some point in the future when he wargs his direwolf Ghost, is a good possibility.  Jon’s half-brother Bran has eaten human flesh when he wargs Summer, when he dines on Coldhand’s pork, and when he marries the tree and tastes human blood.

The Titan Goddess Selene

“SELENE was the Titan goddess of the moon. She was depicted as a woman either riding side saddle on a horse or in a chariot drawn by a pair of winged steeds.

“Selene's great love was the shepherd prince Endymion. The beautiful boy was granted eternal youth and immortality by Zeus and placed in a state of eternal slumber in a cave near the peak of Lydian Mount Latmos. There his heavenly bride descended to consort with him in the night”.

http://www.theoi.com/Titan/Selene.html

·       Several parts of Selene’s description seem relevant to Jon Snow’s story arc:

1]. Selene is the goddess of the moon, and the moon is full the night of Jon’s attempted desertion.

2]. Selene is a Titan, and a Titan statue greets visitors to Braavos.

3]. Selene’s chariot is drawn by “winged steeds” – Mormont asks Jon if his horse has wings” “I ordered a watch kept over you., You were seen leaving. If your brothers had not fetched you back, you would have been taken along the way, and not by friends. Unless you have a horse with wings like a raven. Do you?”

4]. Endymion is a “beautiful boy”, and Ygritee thinks Jon Snow is “pretty”.

5]. Selene consorting with Endymion in a CAVE parallels with Ygritte and Jon having “CAVE SEX”.

6]. Zeus places Endymion in a state of eternal slumber.  Perhaps a greenseer or a priestess of R’holler will cast a similar spell on a dead Jon Snow, preserving and protecting his corpse until Jon’s warg leaves his direwolf Ghost to return to its true home.

The Night Mare

“A mare is an evil spirit or goblin in Germanic folklore which rides on people's chests while they sleep, bringing on bad dreams (or "nightmares").

·       Jon’s night ride on his mare makes his mount a “night mare”.

·       The “goblin” correlates to the unconfirmed “grumkins” that are mentioned periodically in Martin’s novels.

·       Jon’s attempts to desert his post are thwarted by his Sworn Brothers; hence, the “nightmare” is averted.

·       Jon’s dreams are sometimes “mightmares” – for example, Jon has a recurring crypt dream in which he fears going down into the dark, in large part because he feels he is not a true Stark as he is bastard born.

·       That Jon’s dreams are prophetic is a strong possibility, and the force inspiring some of his nightmares may be related to the reigning greenseers.

“The mare is often similar to the mythical creatures succubus and incubus.

“A succubus is a demon in female form or supernatural entity in folklore (traced back to medieval legend) that appears in dreams and takes the form of a woman in order to seduce men, usually through sexual activity. “The male counterpart is the incubus. Religious traditions hold that repeated sexual activity with a succubus may result in the deterioration of health or even death”.  [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Succubus#In_fiction].

·       Melisandre may not be demonic, but she may possess supernatural powers.  Thus far her overtures toward Jon have not met with his approval.

·       The nature of warging in general implies that the warg spirit visits a “host” direwolf.  That V6S is taught that mating while skinchanged in a “host” animal is an abomination, it stands to reason that some skinchangers did engage in sexual activity under these very conditions.

·       The comingling of bloodlines may be why such activity is discouraged among skinchangers.  It seems that Howland Reed’s son displays characteristics associated with those who sing the song of earth.

[evita mgfs]

 

When I taught Sophocles’ Antigone, it was, in part, genre oriented, where we examined the origins of the tragedy, i.e. Greek tragedy, and followed its growth as a specialized “type” in the study of literature from around the world.  Hence, Shakespeare’s “Elizabethan” tragedy borrows heavily from the Greek tragedy, and a man named Aristotle actually defined the elements of a tragedy in the Greek tradition in a work entitled Poetics.  Authors such as Shakespeare use Poetics to self-style their “tragedy” with elements from the Greek tradition.

For example, “tragedy” has characteristics that define it as such, and without these characteristics, it IS NOT A TRAGEDY!

1.     A hero or heroine who is well-positioned in society, usually of royalty or related to others in such elevated positions.

2.    The hero or heroine has a fatal flaw, a defect in character so great that it will contribute to his/her death.  [Overweening pride, arrogance, procrastination, jealousy, poor judgment, deaf to reason, impetuosity, etc.]

3.    The hero/heroine MUST DIE.

4.    Their deaths will serve some GREAT PURPOSE.

5.    The hero and heroine’s fatal flaw will take down a lot of innocent victims, so there will be many deaths, many innocents die.

6.    The hero/heroine’s fates are “star-crossed” – the heavens, the gods, the elements work against the hero/heroine.

7.    The playwright endeavors to have his audience achieve “catharsis” – purging of emotions.

Sophocles is a model of Aristotle’s Poetics.  Greek theatre was also very stylized to their culture, and far from our version of American theatre today: however,  with the continued success of musical theatre like The Lion King, American theatre is like a snail progressing backward.  The head-pieces and puppetry that bring characters like Mufasa and Cimba and Scar to life are not without the Greek-influence in which actors wore enormous head pieces that even served to enhance the performer’s voice through magnification [early microphone system].

Only “two” characters appear on stage at a time.  But a chorus narrates and offers up commentary about the conversation, which is usually a conflict.

Antigone is a character far ahead of her time in history:  she is a strong woman who has profound religious conviction.  Sophocles does not indicate sibling rivalry with Ismene based on jealousy.  Ismene is weak and afraid whereas Antigone is strong and brave.  Antigone feels that both her brothers, Polynices

who rebels against Thebes and Eteocles who rallies for Thebes, deserve a proper burial.  Both simultaneously kill one another at the famed Seven Gates. 

Creon allows a funeral celebration worthy of a hero for Eteocles but orders Polynices to remain unburied, no wine poured or dust sprinkled to allow his spirit to rest.  Instead, his body is left exposed to the elements, and Creon puts a guard on the corpse and passes a law that anyone who dares to give Polynices  proper funeral rites will be executed.

Antigone and Ismene argue on principal.  Antigone feels that the laws of man cannot over-ride the laws of the gods.  That is, all men no matter their crimes deserve what is due to all the dead.  Ismene is dutiful and obedient.  She feels it is treason to defy the law, more so since Creon is her uncle.

Antigone knows that if she buries Polynices and is caught doing so that death is the necessary result.  Creon’s rage is bolstered by the fact that his niece dared to defy his law, which demands that Creon punish without impunity.  To forgive Antigone’s crime will make Creon look weak as a regent, and if Creon pardons Antigone, he will be showing favoritism.

Arya is like Antigone in that both have convictions so strong that they are willing to go against authority at the peril of their lives.  Sansa is like Ismene in that both are law-abiding citizens unwilling to commit treason.

On her way to death, Antigone compares herself to Niobe, who features in a myth that echoes Allyssa’s Tears, the water fall at the Eyrie. 

Antigone’s commitment to her brother reminds me of Ned Stark’s devotion to Lyanna.  He carries her body from the ToJ all the way to Winterfell to guarantee her a proper burial among the Stark lords and Kings of Winter.

When Creon orders Antigone’s punishment, he does what so many have before him have in order to avoid the stain of guilt being directly on his hands:  he entombs Antigone with water and food, his way of buying time.  Meanwhile, the blind prophet of Thebes Tiresias [Maester Aemon] warns Creon that if Antigone dies, he will pay back corpse for corpse, blood for blood; in other words, Creon will lose his entire immediate family all because he refuses to show leniency, especially in a matter that involves defying the laws of the gods.

Creon rushes to free Antigone, where he finds that Antigone has hung herself, soon to be joined by Creon’s only son Haimon committing suicide atop Antigone, followed by the Queen Eurydice dying when she learns of her son’s death.

If Arya is like a Greek heroine, and if she must die, we can take comfort in the fact that Arya’s death will serve some higher purpose or inspire some greater good. 

AGOT Bran V  Book 1, Chapter 38

Robb may err in his decision not to bury the dead wildlings. Even those enemies who fall in battle demand appropriate funeral rites.

In Sophocles’ tragedy Antigone, not burying the dead, or showing an attempt to do so, violates the sacred laws of the gods who demand respect for all the dead: death is the great equalizer.  King Creon pays back “blood for blood” and “corpse for corpse” because he forbids the burial of his fallen foe Polynices, even though Creon is the uncle of  slain. 

When Antigone defies the ‘laws of man’ forbidding her brother’s burial and gives last rite to the corpse by sprinkling sand upon him, Creon condemns Antigone to entombment in a cave.  As a result of his “blindness” to the laws of the gods, Creon suffers the deaths of all those close to him: his spouse, his son.  [Robb and Catelyn lose their families before they die.] 

The forces that are the gods seemingly have a “karmic” way to punish those who violate the laws of the gods – the laws of hospitality, the last rites or respect due to the dead, and other? The violations of some of these unwritten laws of the gods have been escalating throughout the series.  Are these “sins” of humankind tipping the balance? 

Then, even though Grey Wind is a gift to Robb from the old gods, it appears that even the old gods cannot intervene to influence “free will”.  [Bran’s decision to climb despite Summer’s warning].  Maybe even an instrument of the old gods can go astray when the “wolf” or animal instinct takes over.

The stream in Bran’s POV becomes a symbolic baptismal font in which Grey Wind is fully submerged, Robb is submerged to mid-thigh, and Bran gets his foot wet.  What is Martin telling us?  [We have symbolic baptisms in many the preceding POV’s : Arya and the sewer; Catelyn and Ned in the rain;  Dany submerged in a scalding hot bath]. 

Is Robb becoming stronger through Grey Wind?  Is he being symbolically reborn into a “heroic warrior”?  Robb and Grey Wind are the fiercest combatants. 

Does Robb allow his anger to overrule his judgments when he orders the dead be left for the crows?  Robb and Grey Wind share similar fates.  Robb orders two deserters beheaded, their bodies left for crows.  Robb and Grey Wind endure a “loosely” similar fate.  Just saying . . . ?

[ravenous reader]

20 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Mainly though, the lexicon I'm building up is to balance out the idea that this is solely a series attempting to identify mythological figures 1:1 to one of aSoIaF's characters. Sure, I call Lyanna the Persephone of WF crypts and Ned "Hades of WF". Of course they are more than that. I'm just pointing out how much George meticulously worked features and characteristics and background plot into them to tell his own story. If Ned was truly Hades and Lyanna truly Persephone they wouldn't be dead. It's a meta-tie, not an in-world retelling. The lexicon is built not on outside mythological sources, but on George's in-world vocabulary only divided into themes and division of terrestrial, liminal and subterranean. Take out the meta-ties to Persephone, Demeter, Isis, etc and you still have clear death, sterile and life, fertile writing to figure the same things out. The meta-ties to mythologies simply helps to look for the archetypal associations.

I enjoyed reading your chthonic essays @sweetsunray.  They are long, but well worth it.  I hope they get the wide readership they deserve!  You persuasively show how much is going on in the text and how from the mythological associations and various symmetries and inversions alone one can deduce many 'theories'!

[evita mgfs]

HOMERIC and GREEK MYTHOLOGY HOMAGES in MARTIN

CATELYN POV 7

In my most recent post, I touched upon several passages that suggest Homeric epic conventions and allusions to a Greek mythology.  Other epic conventions Martin taps into include  anagnorosis, aristeia, arming, and the epic weapon.

I.             ANAGNOROSIS / THE RECOGNITION SCENE

Homeric conventions include what is called “anagnorosis”, or the “recognition scene”.  This event in the great epic is where a primary character experiences an “epiphany” – or a “recognition scene”,  wherein a character realizes the identity of a guest, or he uncovers  a “knowledge” or a “truth” he did not determine prior to the revelation. 

Odysseus is often identified by his noble bearings; he is taken for one of noble birth because he exemplifies the behaviors associated with wealth and circumstance.  Ironically, the guests who receive Odysseus in their homes and extend their hospitality to him are often majorly impressed with Odysseus’ appearance and his stature.  King Alkinous of Skeria even goes so far as to equate the stalwart Odysseus to the “immortal” gods so impacted was he by Odysseus’ looks and noble mannerisms.  Before King Alkinous and his court learn the identity of their physically attractive guest,  he entertains them with  fantastical stories of his monumental efforts to return to his home after the Trojan War.  [Odysseus becomes physically attractive as a result of his patron goddess Athene, who endows him with gorgeous locks of hair that Homer compares to hyacinthe.  Athene also gives him height and muscles, so she improves upon his appearance so that those who extend Odysseus hospitality are duly impressed and more likely to give guest gifts].

Martin incorporates many scenes of “anagnoroses” in his series. Recently, Catelyn “recognizes” her uncle Brynden Tully the Black Fish.  Another example of “anagnorosis” is Catelyn’s realization that her sister Lysa has indeed changed; as a matter-of-fact, she realizes that Lysa is “moody”, and her mental instability is marked by Catelyn’s following observations about Lysa:  “Lysa's policies varied with her moods, and her moods changed hourly. The shy girl she had known at Riverrun had grown into a woman who was by turns proud, fearful, cruel, dreamy, reckless, timid, stubborn, vain, and, above all, inconstant”.  Catelyn also is enlightened to the nature and cause of the Lordly Robert Arryn’s sickness.

II.           ARMING

In Catelyn’s POV, Martin details the arming of Ser Vardis Egen in much the same way as Homer details the arming of the heroic Argives in the Iliad.  The extended descriptions of the breast plates, designs, shields, and weapons usually precede an epic combat featuring one-on-one battle.

“Ser Vardis Egen was steel from head to heel, encased in heavy plate armor over mail and padded surcoat. Large circular rondels, enameled cream-and-blue in the moon-and-falcon sigil of House Arryn, protected the vulnerable juncture of arm and breast. A skirt of lobstered metal covered him from waist to midthigh, while a solid gorget encircled his throat. Falcon's wings sprouted from the temples of his helm, and his visor was a pointed metal beak with a narrow slit for vision”.

Ironically, the arms Vardis Egen wears prove disadvantageous to him against Bronn.

III.         ARISTEIA

The aristeia is the “highest point” in battle that a warrior can achieve.  For Ser Vardis, his fight against Bronn reveals his skill in battle and yet Bronn defeats him.

IV.          EPIC WEAPON

As part of the aristeia, the hero’s weapon is often described.  Ser Vardis carries a grand weapon in battle which has a history and is described in detail as follows:

“Ser Vardis held out a gauntleted hand, and his squire placed a handsome double-edged longsword in his grasp. The blade was engraved with a delicate silver tracery of a mountain sky; its pommel was a falcon's head, its crossguard fashioned into the shape of wings. "I had that sword crafted for Jon in King's Landing," Lysa told her guests proudly as they watched Ser Vardis try a practice cut. "He wore it whenever he sat the Iron Throne in King Robert's place. Isn't it a lovely thing? I thought it only fitting that our champion avenge Jon with his own blade."

“The engraved silver blade was beautiful beyond a doubt, but it seemed to Catelyn that Ser Vardis might have been more comfortable with his own sword. Yet she said nothing; she was weary of futile arguments with her sister.”

[evita mgfs]

EDDARD IX AGoT/ BLOOD AND RAIN/Shakespeare and Homer

In Eddard’s previous POV - VIII, Eddard “wished” for rain, and Eddard’s wish is granted, but with a “bloody” twist.

In Shakespeare’s tragedy Julius Caesar, the morning of the Ides of March, Caesar’s wife Calpurnia urges her husband not to go forth this day for the Night’s Watch has reported supernatural events that bode ill for “kings and princes” because the gods announce their deaths for the world, unlike the deaths of ordinary men.

Following is part of Calpurnia’s plea, which includes a famous reference to the bloody rain drizzling upon the Capitol, which will be the location of Caesar’s assassination:

CALPURNIA

Caesar, I never stood on ceremonies,
Yet now they fright me. There is one within,
Besides the things that we have heard and seen,
Recounts most horrid sights seen by the watch.
A lioness hath whelped in the streets;
And graves have yawn'd, and yielded up their dead;
Fierce fiery warriors fought upon the clouds,
In ranks and squadrons and right form of war,
Which drizzled blood upon the Capitol;
The noise of battle hurtled in the air,
Horses did neigh, and dying men did groan,
And ghosts did shriek and squeal about the streets.
O Caesar! these things are beyond all use,
And I do fear them. [2.ii.]

Calpurnia tells Caesar he must not leave the house that day, but he insists that he will, since none would dare attack him. Calpurnia says that night watchmen have seen a lioness give birth in the streets, graves open and the dead walk, and blood rains on the Capitol. Caesar is still not swayed, saying that these omens could be intended for anyone, and that no-one can escape what the Gods have decreed. He adds that death should not be feared, since it must come when it will, and that “Cowards die many times before their deaths; / The valiant never taste of death but once" (2.2.32-3).

Martin deliberately employs themes, language, and character names indicative of Shakespeare’s tragedy, and I have already pointed out similarities or nods to Caesar in past POV’s. In Ned’s POV, the “bloody rain” echoes the “bloody rain” from Caesar; moreover, according to the Greek historian Plutarch, supernatural events DID OCCUR as warning signs the night before and early morning hours of the Ides of March, March 15, 44 B.C.

Other points of interest in this passage are that the “horses did neigh and dying men did groan”, which also transpires in Ned’s POV when Jaime and his retinue attack Eddard and his retainers; that the NIGHT’S WATCH, called “the Watch” in the text but defined in “staging notes” as the NIGHT’S WATCH, aka the City Guards in Rome. Martin’s appelation for the black brothers who guard the Wall to protect the realms of men share the title “Night’s Watch” with the Roman guards who patrol at night/early morning and witness the supernatural occurrences which Shakespeare borrows from Plutarch’s historical account of the evening before Caesar’s death.

Likewise, “A lioness hath whelped in the streets;” reports Calpurnia, and in Martin’s series, the “lions” are the fierce symbol of House Lannister, and confronting Ned is the full grown cub Jaime Lannister, who is symbolically the end result of a “lioness whelping”, which ironically could point to Joanna, Tywin’s wife, who gives birth to her first trueborn son Jaime, who now confronts Ned Stark very much like the following description of the men fighting in the clouds: “ Fierce fiery warriors fought upon the clouds, / In ranks and squadrons and right form of war”. The confrontation between Jaime and Ned foreshadows more warring between Lannisters and Starks, or lions and wolves.

Finally, Shakespeare discloses that on this portentous night the “graves have yawn'd, and yielded up their dead;” if Martin is mirroring events from Julius Caesar in parts of his ASoIaF, then this scene involving the “baptism” by blood for Ned Stark AND the report of supernatural events in Shakespeare’s tragedy seemingly parallel one another in more than just one way.

To augment my reference to the bloody rain in Julius Caesar, I looked up “blood rain” on the Wiki, and I will share the following:

Blood rain or red rain is a phenomenon in which blood is perceived to fall from the sky in the form of rain. Cases have been recorded since Homer's Iliad, composed approximately 8th century BC, and are widespread. Before the 17th century it was generally believed that the rain was actually blood. Literature mirrors cult practice, in which the appearance of blood rain was considered a bad omen, and was used as a tool foreshadowing events, but while some of these may be literary devices, some occurrences are historic. http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Blood_rain

The “blood rain” mirroring “cult practice” and being associated with a “bad omen” certainly makes Martin’s utilization of “bloody rain” symbolic as well as a foreshadowing device of events to come.

In Homer’s Iliad, the bard mentions “bloody rain” twice, both implicating that the rain is derived from the tears of Zeus, who cries on two occasions:

1) Zeus cries because he must send many Trojans to the Halls of Hades: “And the son of Kronos / sent evil turmoil upon them, and from aloft cast / down dews dripping blood from the sky, since he was minded / to hurl down many strong heads to the house of Hades.”

2) Zeus cries over the impending death of his mortal son Sarpedon who fights for the Trojans, at the hands of Achean Patroclus: Lattimore (1951) offers: "Yet he wept tears of blood that fell to the ground for the sake/ of his beloved son."

Zeus crying in the Iliad, Homer “humanizes” him, making Zeus appear to have mortal-like emotions – and also showing that the great Zeus finds no pleasure in the deaths of men who fight bravely in battle.

Likewise, Ned sheds tears for his lost comrades. Later, Ned will be moved to tears regarding his daughter Sansa, among other “old guilts” that haunt him. But if Zeus is “humanized” by the death of his mortal son, then the most “honor-bound” Ned Stark is likewise “humanized” by his tears. Later, he will compromise his own duty to his honor and confess to being a traitor.

[sweetsunray]

3 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

I enjoyed reading your chthonic essays @sweetsunray.  They are long, but well worth it.  I hope they get the wide readership they deserve!  You persuasively show how much is going on in the text and how from the mythological associations and various symmetries and inversions alone one can deduce many 'theories'!

Thank you

Yeah, I know they are long. I try to incorporate the ideas and associtions as succinctly as I can without losing clarity and still make it an interesting read. Part 3 was the most difficult because there are so many tangents like a spider web. I really had to cut into it and say - nope not going there now, I can show it in future chthonic essays. I could also drop some of the quote material, but I think that the quotes themselves help in intuitively seeing things in it and allow the reader to make his own associations.