The Chthonic Cycle - Part 1-4 - The Persephone, Hades, Demeter and Isis of Winterfell

[sweetsunray]

On 13-4-2016 at 4:16 AM, evita mgfs said:

Symbolic Meanings of Mare

 

snip

While I certainly find your general association points about a "mare" interesting and worthy to keep in the back of the mind (for anyone riding a mare). I do find the associations to Jon's arc a bit too generous. The one time mare ride I find hard to use to generalize toward say his encounter with Mel without more precise textual pointers of the scene. The horses in the books tend to have a particul scene related message (past, present or future foreshadowing). Though I wouldn't discount the idea yet. I haven't reread the Jon flight scene with the horse importance yet. I'm sure it will have gems hidden in there, and that they may include a foreshadowing of say aDwD.

[sweetsunray]

On 13-4-2016 at 4:27 AM, evita mgfs said:

 

 

In Sophocles’ tragedy Antigone, not burying the dead, or showing an attempt to do so, violates the sacred laws of the gods who demand respect for all the dead: death is the great equalizer.  King Creon pays back “blood for blood” and “corpse for corpse” because he forbids the burial of his fallen foe Polynices, even though Creon is the uncle of  slain. 

snip

When Antigone defies the ‘laws of man’ forbidding her brother’s burial and gives last rite to the corpse by sprinkling sand upon him, Creon condemns Antigone to entombment in a cave.  As a result of his “blindness” to the laws of the gods, Creon suffers the deaths of all those close to him: his spouse, his son.  [Robb and Catelyn lose their families before they die.] 

 

The forces that are the gods seemingly have a “karmic” way to punish those who violate the laws of the gods – the laws of hospitality, the last rites or respect due to the dead, and other? The violations of some of these unwritten laws of the gods have been escalating throughout the series.  Are these “sins” of humankind tipping the balance? 

Yes, you are touching on similar ideas I have, and begin to suggest in part 4 with regards to Ned not being properly buried, and Catelyn being desecrated.

The divine laws get featured often in the books... intuitively and in stories and conversations as well as in plot.

• Proper burial
• Guest right
• Keeping promises/oaths
• Not slaying your own kin
• Loyalty to the lord/lady/king/queen you're sworn to, otherwise you're a turncloak and oathbreaker
• No extortion, abuse and improper burial of a bear, and a wedding ceremony to a maiden

While I'm not one who believes there actually are gods in tWoIaF, there is obviously magic, and somehow those who break the above rules get paid back twofold (and often in violent death or loss). Often it involves some vengeance by someone or another. And while George obviously incorporates how vengeance can cost the vengeful more than they gain and has Ellaria speak against it, he nevertheless incorporates it in almost Greek fashion of divine justice or the Norse fashion of bear revenge. 

Aside from the desecration of Robb's and Catelyn's body, you are correct that both Robb and Catelyn fail to bury some men according to the proper ritual (willingly or unwillingly and forced by circumstance) too. For example, in the Vale several of the men in Catelyn's escort of Tyrion die in the attacks of the Mountain Clans. She wants to bury the fallen, but they cannot do so without risking their own lives. And of course beyond the Wall, not properly burying the dead (burning them) results in them being turned into wights.

If only the Freys had properly buried Catelyn there wouldn't be an LS hunting them and hanging them.

There is the Styx connection through Ned about keeping promises. Oathkeeping and oathbreaking which is a recurring theme and mentioned and stressed in the books.

Plenty of those crimes against the gods are worked in by Dante in his Inferno and Purgatory. Brienne and Jaime both visit castles, places and meet people with vignette stories like Dante does in Divine Comedy, and each time related to the sins. When Brienne defends the orphans against Rorge and Biter George puts in a visual of the 9th circle, the circle of the worst sins (betrayal of guest right, oaths, your lord/lady, kinslaying). In Divince Comedy Satan is half trapped in a lake of ice, with just his upper body and 3 heads not entombed in the ice lake. With his 3 heads he chews on the worst sinners (Judas, Brutus and his fellow conspiritor). While Dante is just a witness to it all to describe the events, Brienne herself is dragged into it not as a victim but a perpetrator - Biter chews her face. And then she's brought before LS and condemned for being an oathbreaker, a turncloak.

If you wonder about "huh bears?" I explain the evidence for that in my bear-maiden essays. First I explain the widely held taboos and beliefs regarding bears in the subarctic (Finland, Germanic, Siberia, North America) and how the actual name of the animal is a taboo to be spoken (probably since the time of the PIE language. Euphemisms are typically used. In fact the PIE word from which "bear" comes from is a euphemism already. Just calling a bear a bear is begging for trouble. While they did hunt bears, it was a highly ritualized one year event... and the ritual involved all sorts of tricks to avoid that the bear, even when dead alraedy, would find out he was dead and who murdered him. Then the hunters would carry him to his wedding in the village, and a wedding ritual would be held between a maiden and the dead bear, including a faest (where the bear of course was the meal). Then he would be properly buried like a man, and his spirit would return to the heavens in the shape of a bird to tell his fellow bears there how good the villagers had been and promote the area for bears to reincarnate. It was believed that bears were skinchanging humans. If you skin a bear, it looks human. Hence the euphemisms when speaking about bears - they could understand human language. Hence many taboos about killing bears wrongly - it's murder. They killed him for blessing purposes - the bear was the great spirit of the forest, the guardian and provider of other forest game. So if you did the ritual correctly, the bear would bless you with the hunting of other game without taking revenge. If you did it wrongly, the bear would end the male bloodline. 

Not only is the bear song in the books about a maiden and a bear, like a reworked beauty and the beast. It's also a codex that contains the rules of huntng a bear (how to lure him out, how to kill him without him knowing it, how to scape"goat" others if he realizes he's dead while the hunters pretend to be innocent friends). And we see that proper bear hunt done in the chapter where the BwB "catch" Gendry, Hot Pie and Arya, including the symbolic kill with arrows (a  repressed stanza in the bear song between inviting the bear to the fair and seeing the 3 "boys" and "goat" dance with the bear to the fair), and the 3 BwB hunters (a singing shaman, the young shooter and the experienced hunter) instantly are rewarded by catching game in the form of birds. Meanwhile we see a lot of bears mentioned and abused in areas and scenes followed by huge violence

• a bear skull and a scapegoat ram skull at Craster's who extorts Jeor (the Old Bear) and it ends with the massacre at Craster's. He sacrificed his sons. So no male line.
• Vargo Hoat catches a bear and keeps him in a bear pit and even holds a type of "mock" wedding with Brienne. He's extorting the bear by keeping him alive and imprisoned in the pit. And instead of hunter's game, he's after gold-game. Vargo Hoat ends up being fed to himself in bits and pieces. Heck, it was Harren who built the bear pit and loved bear-bating. I suspect the Harrenhal curse of every House gone extinct so far at Harrenhal has to do with the bear pit. When Jaime returns there and installs another peaceful regime, we almost get a sense of the bear now being properly buried. At least his thoughts as he looks on the last of the remains in the pit are like that of a mourner saying farewell. I think the HH curse is over now.
• Only LF will fall as last victim to it, for he calls Sansa a bear cub. (some cultures caught a cub, fed and raised him for a year like a beloved child, only to sacrifice him ritually with arrows at the end of a year).
• Theon says aloud in the forest, right after noticing bear tracks that he would like to catch a bear himself and mentions bear-baiting, while he's searching for Bran and Rickon. But it's Theon himself who ends being baited and tortured... and there won't be any male line coming from Theon.  
• Astapor keeps bears in a pit and feeds boys to them. Astapor's masters are burned by the dragons. And eventually everybody there dies violently or from violent sickness
• Dancing bears are also tortured bears. Everybody talks and looks forward to the dancing bear at the Purple Wedding. It's a poor old animal. Joffrey dies a violent choking death before he even gets to bed his bride.
• The Freys butcher a female bear (Dacey Mormont) and plant an axe in her belly (a fertile anatomical symbol). I think that at least House Frey's male line will end.

There's a reason why I have Edd's saying of "There's always a bear" in my sig. There actually is, especially abused bears. George did not have to feature a bear every time again in these situations. And yet he did.

So, yes the divine crimes are a reoccurrig theme in the books, and one of them is proper burial, and the backlash if a character breaks those classic or universal taboos.

[Philokles]

On 13/04/2016 at 3:27 AM, evita mgfs said:

 

 

When I taught Sophocles’ Antigone, it was, in part, genre oriented, where we examined the origins of the tragedy, i.e. Greek tragedy, and followed its growth as a specialized “type” in the study of literature from around the world.  Hence, Shakespeare’s “Elizabethan” tragedy borrows heavily from the Greek tragedy, and a man named Aristotle actually defined the elements of a tragedy in the Greek tradition in a work entitled Poetics.  Authors such as Shakespeare use Poetics to self-style their “tragedy” with elements from the Greek tradition.

 

For example, “tragedy” has characteristics that define it as such, and without these characteristics, it IS NOT A TRAGEDY!

 

1.     A hero or heroine who is well-positioned in society, usually of royalty or related to others in such elevated positions.

 

2.    The hero or heroine has a fatal flaw, a defect in character so great that it will contribute to his/her death.  [Overweening pride, arrogance, procrastination, jealousy, poor judgment, deaf to reason, impetuosity, etc.]

 

3.    The hero/heroine MUST DIE.

 

4.    Their deaths will serve some GREAT PURPOSE.

 

5.    The hero and heroine’s fatal flaw will take down a lot of innocent victims, so there will be many deaths, many innocents die.

 

6.    The hero/heroine’s fates are “star-crossed” – the heavens, the gods, the elements work against the hero/heroine.

 

7.    The playwright endeavors to have his audience achieve “catharsis” – purging of emotions.

 

Sophocles is a model of Aristotle’s Poetics.  Greek theatre was also very stylized to their culture, and far from our version of American theatre today: however,  with the continued success of musical theatre like The Lion King, American theatre is like a snail progressing backward.  The head-pieces and puppetry that bring characters like Mufasa and Cimba and Scar to life are not without the Greek-influence in which actors wore enormous head pieces that even served to enhance the performer’s voice through magnification [early microphone system].

 

Only “two” characters appear on stage at a time.  But a chorus narrates and offers up commentary about the conversation, which is usually a conflict.

 

Antigone is a character far ahead of her time in history:  she is a strong woman who has profound religious conviction.  Sophocles does not indicate sibling rivalry with Ismene based on jealousy.  Ismene is weak and afraid whereas Antigone is strong and brave.  Antigone feels that both her brothers, Polynices

 

who rebels against Thebes and Eteocles who rallies for Thebes, deserve a proper burial.  Both simultaneously kill one another at the famed Seven Gates. 

 

Creon allows a funeral celebration worthy of a hero for Eteocles but orders Polynices to remain unburied, no wine poured or dust sprinkled to allow his spirit to rest.  Instead, his body is left exposed to the elements, and Creon puts a guard on the corpse and passes a law that anyone who dares to give Polynices  proper funeral rites will be executed.

 

Antigone and Ismene argue on principal.  Antigone feels that the laws of man cannot over-ride the laws of the gods.  That is, all men no matter their crimes deserve what is due to all the dead.  Ismene is dutiful and obedient.  She feels it is treason to defy the law, more so since Creon is her uncle.

 

Antigone knows that if she buries Polynices and is caught doing so that death is the necessary result.  Creon’s rage is bolstered by the fact that his niece dared to defy his law, which demands that Creon punish without impunity.  To forgive Antigone’s crime will make Creon look weak as a regent, and if Creon pardons Antigone, he will be showing favoritism.

 

Arya is like Antigone in that both have convictions so strong that they are willing to go against authority at the peril of their lives.  Sansa is like Ismene in that both are law-abiding citizens unwilling to commit treason.

 

On her way to death, Antigone compares herself to Niobe, who features in a myth that echoes Allyssa’s Tears, the water fall at the Eyrie. 

 

Antigone’s commitment to her brother reminds me of Ned Stark’s devotion to Lyanna.  He carries her body from the ToJ all the way to Winterfell to guarantee her a proper burial among the Stark lords and Kings of Winter.

 

When Creon orders Antigone’s punishment, he does what so many have before him have in order to avoid the stain of guilt being directly on his hands:  he entombs Antigone with water and food, his way of buying time.  Meanwhile, the blind prophet of Thebes Tiresias [Maester Aemon] warns Creon that if Antigone dies, he will pay back corpse for corpse, blood for blood; in other words, Creon will lose his entire immediate family all because he refuses to show leniency, especially in a matter that involves defying the laws of the gods.

 

Creon rushes to free Antigone, where he finds that Antigone has hung herself, soon to be joined by Creon’s only son Haimon committing suicide atop Antigone, followed by the Queen Eurydice dying when she learns of her son’s death.

 

If Arya is like a Greek heroine, and if she must die, we can take comfort in the fact that Arya’s death will serve some higher purpose or inspire some greater good.

I think another Sophoclean tragedy — Electra, also has a number of interesting parallels with ASoIaF. The relationship between the sisters Electra and Chrysothemis is similar to both that of Antigone and Ismene, and of Arya and Sansa. Electra resists the new regime, despite her sister Chrysothemis playing along despite her doubts. This determined stance means that she is frequently derided as being rash. In both the Electra and the arc of Arya, the themes of identity and meaning of justice are important. Whilst Arya readily accepts the need for deception and assassination to achieve her objectives, Electra initially struggles with the need to use underhand tactics. As well as being more practical, Arya would be willing to take a greater role in the revenge plot rather than just providing non-violent opposition.

Unlike the Antigone, the Electra also has parallels to Cersei in Clytaemnestra as a figure the sisters either resist or reluctantly support. There a good number of similarities both in surface features and underlying tenets of these two characters. The Queen was responsible for the usurpation of the throne and murder of her husband. Like Cersei, Clytaemnestra is having an affair, in her case with Aegisthus — a man she manipulates for his brawn whilst feeling (with a greater deal of justification than Cersei) that she is the brains. Clytaemnestra too feels slighted by the blatant infidelity of the king with the captive Cassandra. She also fears the realisation of a prophecy that says a family member will one day return and kill her. One difference between the pair is in her more justified reasoning: for the King sacrificed their daughter Iphigenia to the Artemis following a divine command. Agamemnon also has some similarities to both Ned and Robert — as the king killed by his wife and as the murdered father for whom his daughter seeks vengeance.

Interestingly, Electra longs to once more see her brother Orestes in a similar manner to Arya missing Jon. Orestes had gone into exile after the murder of Agamemnon, but returns in the course of the tragedy to claim ‘his’ throne. During the play Electra believes that he has died, but this was only part of his deception to lure Clytaemnestra and Aegisthus into a position where they could be killed. However, when Orestes finally reveals his true identity to his sister, they share an emotional reunion. Despite being successful in retaking the throne at the conclusion of the play, all is not well with Electra, who is scarred mentally and physically by her ordeal.

[evita mgfs]

33 minutes ago, Sept Sev said:

I think another Sophoclean tragedy — Electra, also has a number of interesting parallels with ASoIaF. The relationship between the sisters Electra and Chrysothemis is similar to both that of Antigone and Ismene, and of Arya and Sansa. Electra resists the new regime, despite her sister Chrysothemis playing along despite her doubts. This determined stance means that she is frequently derided as being rash. In both the Electra and the arc of Arya, the themes of identity and meaning of justice are important. Whilst Arya readily accepts the need for deception and assassination to achieve her objectives, Electra initially struggles with the need to use underhand tactics. As well as being more practical, Arya would be willing to take a greater role in the revenge plot rather than just providing non-violent opposition.

Unlike the Antigone, the Electra also has parallels to Cersei in Clytaemnestra as a figure the sisters either resist or reluctantly support. There a good number of similarities both in surface features and underlying tenets of these two characters. The Queen was responsible for the usurpation of the throne and murder of her husband. Like Cersei, Clytaemnestra is having an affair, in her case with Aegisthus — a man she manipulates for his brawn whilst feeling (with a greater deal of justification than Cersei) that she is the brains. Clytaemnestra too feels slighted by the blatant infidelity of the king with the captive Cassandra. She also fears the realisation of a prophecy that says a family member will one day return and kill her. One difference between the pair is in her more justified reasoning: for the King sacrificed their daughter Iphigenia to the Artemis following a divine command. Agamemnon also has some similarities to both Ned and Robert — as the king killed by his wife and as the murdered father for whom his daughter seeks vengeance.

Interestingly, Electra longs to once more see her brother Orestes in a similar manner to Arya missing Jon. Orestes had gone into exile after the murder of Agamemnon, but returns in the course of the tragedy to claim ‘his’ throne. During the play Electra believes that he has died, but this was only part of his deception to lure Clytaemnestra and Aegisthus into a position where they could be killed. However, when Orestes finally reveals his true identity to his sister, they share an emotional reunion. Despite being successful in retaking the throne at the conclusion of the play, all is not well with Electra, who is scarred mentally and physically by her ordeal.

I actually saw Electra performed in a circular theater that mirrored stadium seating, with the performance area below the audience and the seating in tiers above.  In a fashion, the staging resembled actual ampitheater, albeit much more intimate, a nice touch for viewers as the actors were closer to them.

Cersei as Clytaemnestra is a good call, and in a small way, Melisandre is similar to Cassandra.  Although Apollo gifts Cassandra with a prophetic voice, he then curses her when she does not return his affections; hence, no one believes Cassandra's warnings of doom even though her prognostications are accurate.  Melisandre reads signs in her fires, but her interpretations of these signs are proved to be false, a sad reality that many discover at their own peril.

Orestes may be similar to Robb Stark who goes to war to avenge the death of his father.  In the Odyssey, Orestes is the hero held up to Telemachus as the model of a good son, one who takes action and does not merely talk about what he will do.  Telemachus, lacking the influence of his father Odysseus growing up, does not possess the confidence to stand up to the suitors, although he does try with Athena's coaching.  

The paradox of a son's duty to avenge his father's death by killing his murderers results in Orestes winning the wrath of the Furies for committing matricide.  In Martin's series, he does explore kinslaying as well.  Moreover, the theme of madness is explored through the Targaryan bloodline.  

Now, when I think on it, both Oedipus and Paris are infants when they are abandoned on mountains by their parents who fear prophecy and bad dreams.  This reminds me of Craster's gifts to crueler gods as he leaves his infant sons exposed to the elements as they await the Others to scoop them up for an uncertain fate.

[sweetsunray]

Yes, Electra is another influence imo. And not just for roles and plot mapping, but also thematically. The whole story  is a cycle of crimes against the divine decrees. Agamemnon sacrifices his daughter (kinslaying). Clytaemnestra and her lover are kingslayers ad oathbreakers. And Orestes and Electra are kinslayers again when they murder their mother. The furies torment Orestes and it is not until he finds Iphigynea and the three children are reunited that the furies are appeased.

[sweetsunray]

On 13-4-2016 at 11:53 PM, evita mgfs said:

HOMERIC and GREEK MYTHOLOGY HOMAGES in MARTIN

 

CATELYN POV 7

 

In my most recent post, I touched upon several passages that suggest Homeric epic conventions and allusions to a Greek mythology.  Other epic conventions Martin taps into include  anagnorosis, aristeia, arming, and the epic weapon.

Yes, GRRM writes his chapters and scenes surprisingly stylistically:

- Lysa's box is stylistically written as the Eleusinian Mystery, though plotwise it's actually Pandora's box and Set's trick coffin.

- Arya's chapter from start to finish where she gets caught by the BwB is stylistically written as the first 4 stanza's of his bear-maiden song which are stanza's about the proper bear hunt rituals - finding the bear, luring him out of his lair, inviting him to his feast, killing him (hidden stanza), carrying him to his (wedding) feast and pretending to be innocent of killing him and scapegoating it on others, the bear meeting his maiden

- ToJ dream and Robert-Cersei-Ned conversation in his sick room featuring the Melinoe nightmare of the Orphic hymn about Melinoe. We see the same Melinoe references again in Theon's nightmare of the feasting dead at WF.

It does not read stylistically (except for the ToJ dream), but he uses these things as framework.

[sweetsunray]

On 13-4-2016 at 11:54 PM, evita mgfs said:

EDDARD IX AGoT/ BLOOD AND RAIN/Shakespeare and Homer

 

In Eddard’s previous POV - VIII, Eddard “wished” for rain, and Eddard’s wish is granted, but with a “bloody” twist.

 

In Shakespeare’s tragedy Julius Caesar, the morning of the Ides of March, Caesar’s wife Calpurnia urges her husband not to go forth this day for the Night’s Watch has reported supernatural events that bode ill for “kings and princes” because the gods announce their deaths for the world, unlike the deaths of ordinary men.

 

Following is part of Calpurnia’s plea, which includes a famous reference to the bloody rain drizzling upon the Capitol, which will be the location of Caesar’s assassination:

 

CALPURNIA

Caesar, I never stood on ceremonies,
Yet now they fright me. There is one within,
Besides the things that we have heard and seen,
Recounts most horrid sights seen by the watch.
A lioness hath whelped in the streets;
And graves have yawn'd, and yielded up their dead;
Fierce fiery warriors fought upon the clouds,
In ranks and squadrons and right form of war,
Which drizzled blood upon the Capitol;
The noise of battle hurtled in the air,
Horses did neigh, and dying men did groan,
And ghosts did shriek and squeal about the streets.
O Caesar! these things are beyond all use,
And I do fear them. [2.ii.]

This certainly is quite complementary to the first half of my essay of the Trail fo the Red Stallion and "betting on the wrong horse", as well as it being ominous and analogues to the Melinoe nightmare of ToJ dream.

[Isobel Harper]

On 4/13/2016 at 9:27 PM, evita mgfs said:

For example, “tragedy” has characteristics that define it as such, and without these characteristics, it IS NOT A TRAGEDY!

 

1.     A hero or heroine who is well-positioned in society, usually of royalty or related to others in such elevated positions.

 

2.    The hero or heroine has a fatal flaw, a defect in character so great that it will contribute to his/her death.  [Overweening pride, arrogance, procrastination, jealousy, poor judgment, deaf to reason, impetuosity, etc.]

 

3.    The hero/heroine MUST DIE.

 

4.    Their deaths will serve some GREAT PURPOSE.

 

5.    The hero and heroine’s fatal flaw will take down a lot of innocent victims, so there will be many deaths, many innocents die.

 

6.    The hero/heroine’s fates are “star-crossed” – the heavens, the gods, the elements work against the hero/heroine.

 

7.    The playwright endeavors to have his audience achieve “catharsis” – purging of emotions.

 

Keeping in mind that GRRM intended ASoIaF to be three books, the series appears to have three separate "acts."  AGoT turned into three larger books: AGoT, ACoK, and ASoS.  AFfC and ADwD, which by taking place at the same time are parts of a larger book, is the second "act."  (Note that these will be the only two books that break the "X of Y" pattern, setting them apart from the former and the latter books.)  WoW and ADoS will be the third "act." 

In the first "act," Ned dies.  In the second "act," Tywin dies.  Tywin (to the reader) is not a hero, per se.  However, both Ned and Tywin are "heroes" to their own children.  All of their children admire them and aspire to be like them and/or seek their approval.  Despite Tywin's flaws (Ref your #2), his role as Hand is said to have been the reason for the prosperity during Aerys' reign.

So, who will be the next "hero" to die in "act" three?  Jon Snow's death at the very end of ADwD might fulfill the role.  Like Tywin, he died at the very end of an "act" and the effects of his death will resonate into the next "act."  Alternatively, it might be another father, or father figure, who dies in the third "act."  Jon Connington.  The first father/hero was a Stark; the second, a Lannister.  Why not the third (in a sense) a Targaryen, that is a father figure to a Targaryen, literally Young Griff's "father" for a time as "Griff." 

While, yes, Jon Snow could also fulfill the role of a tragic figure/"dead Targaryen hero," he does not fit the father role.  (There's also the potential of a resurrection to consider; in GRRM's story, the tragic hero does not return.)  I lost the thread during the forum update, but I opened a thread concerning a red wolfskin cloak that Connington wears.  The cloak is described as a "red wolfskin cloak of the Rhoyne" and is worn in every scene he appears in Essos.  (And that's every chapter he appears in except the last one.)  In the thread, some conclusion we reached included R+L=A+J, another hint of R+L=J (Young Griff and Griff share a name; Jon Connington and Jon Snow share a name), and that Jon Connington is some sort of Ned Stark parallel.  With the latter in mind, with Connington fulfilling the role of Aegon's "Ned Stark," why not also Ned Stark's role in a tragedy?

[evita mgfs]

On 4/18/2016 at 0:51 PM, Isobel Harper said:

Keeping in mind that GRRM intended ASoIaF to be three books, the series appears to have three separate "acts."  AGoT turned into three larger books: AGoT, ACoK, and ASoS.  AFfC and ADwD, which by taking place at the same time are parts of a larger book, is the second "act."  (Note that these will be the only two books that break the "X of Y" pattern, setting them apart from the former and the latter books.)  WoW and ADoS will be the third "act." 

In the first "act," Ned dies.  In the second "act," Tywin dies.  Tywin (to the reader) is not a hero, per se.  However, both Ned and Tywin are "heroes" to their own children.  All of their children admire them and aspire to be like them and/or seek their approval.  Despite Tywin's flaws (Ref your #2), his role as Hand is said to have been the reason for the prosperity during Aerys' reign.

So, who will be the next "hero" to die in "act" three?  Jon Snow's death at the very end of ADwD might fulfill the role.  Like Tywin, he died at the very end of an "act" and the effects of his death will resonate into the next "act."  Alternatively, it might be another father, or father figure, who dies in the third "act."  Jon Connington.  The first father/hero was a Stark; the second, a Lannister.  Why not the third (in a sense) a Targaryen, that is a father figure to a Targaryen, literally Young Griff's "father" for a time as "Griff." 

While, yes, Jon Snow could also fulfill the role of a tragic figure/"dead Targaryen hero," he does not fit the father role.  (There's also the potential of a resurrection to consider; in GRRM's story, the tragic hero does not return.)  I lost the thread during the forum update, but I opened a thread concerning a red wolfskin cloak that Connington wears.  The cloak is described as a "red wolfskin cloak of the Rhoyne" and is worn in every scene he appears in Essos.  (And that's every chapter he appears in except the last one.)  In the thread, some conclusion we reached included R+L=A+J, another hint of R+L=J (Young Griff and Griff share a name; Jon Connington and Jon Snow share a name), and that Jon Connington is some sort of Ned Stark parallel.  With the latter in mind, with Connington fulfilling the role of Aegon's "Ned Stark," why not also Ned Stark's role in a tragedy?

Not sure, but . . .

 

In the Tragedy of Julius Caesar, the name character dies in Act III of a five act tragedy; however, the ghost of Caesar appears to Brutus once in Act IV and again in Act V. In this way, the lead character “eerily” lives on.

 

Moreover, when Marc Antony shakes the bloody hands of the conspirators feigning to be their friends, many scholars believe that the “spirit” of Caesar possesses Antony who will avenge the death of his friend.  Ergo “Cry Havoc, and let slip the dogs of war!”

 

[Isobel Harper]

I've read your OP entirely, but haven't had any time lately to address all the points I would like.  Let me just say that this is an amazing post!   

On 4/12/2016 at 7:57 PM, sweetsunray said:

I highlighted Ned’s question to Bran – why must Ned do it – but momentarily left out the answer that Ned gives Bran. The question should not only be asked in-world, but also at a meta-level. Why is Ned in particular the man who is called for to deal with deserters of the Night’s Watch and who will have to ride against the King-beyond-the-Wall? Is it not the Night’s Watch job to deal with wildling threats against the realm? And if Ned Stark can be fetched to lop a deserter’s head off, then surely Lord Commander Jeor Mormont can do the same? Supposedly, the Night’s Watch is an independent force, allied to no particular lord or king to protect the realm, including Ned’s North, from being threatened by whichever threat exists North of the Wall. And yet, from the first chapter (aside from the Prologue), the Lord of Winterfell, Eddard Stark, is shown to be the main man called to act, if the Night’s Watch fails to do the task delegated to them. Later, Osha too claims Robb ought to go North, not South, for the same purpose.

 

Currently the majority of men at the Night’s Watch are criminals sent their by their lords as a form of punishment. We can see an echo of Tartarus in this. Tartarus was the underworld prison where those who warred or offended the gods were sent and given some type of punishment. If Hades lay a certain distance away from earth, then Tartarus lay doubly far. People who have attempted to set up a timeline run into headaches regarding travel days issues from Winterfell to the Wall and Winterfell to the Crossroads (and from there King’s Landing). Ignoring how impossibly fast Tyrion manages to get to the Crossroads after leaving Winterfell upon his return to King’s Landing, which George has admitted was a mistake, we can say it takes roughly the same amount of time to get to the Wall from Winterfell than to reach and cross the Neck, and that the sum of those distances is roughly the same distance from the Neck to King’s Landing. Since this initially chosen distance inconveniences later plot (such as Tyrion meeting Catelyn at the Crossroads), something else influenced George’s decision. The alleged distance of Tartarus to earth may have been George’s inspiration.

No King-Beyond-the-Wall was ever stopped by the Night’s Watch alone. Always, some Lord or King of Winterfell was the man to deal with the threat.

This part made me recall something else concerning the Starks, Winterfell, and the Wall.  It's said that there must always be a Stark in Winterfell, and the tradition seems to hold true at the Wall as well.  If Starks are a parallel to the Lord of the Underworld, then the Starks' obligation is to keep the dead (Others, wights) where they belong (The Underworld/Land of Always Winter).  However, like the Night's Watch itself, they've forgotten their true purpose.  Ned thinks Others are just make-believe.

Also note the inversion in which GRRM depicts hell: one must go north ("up") not underground ("down") to reach hell.  GRRM's hell is cold, not fiery like hell is popularly depicted as today.

Sly Wren recently started a thread concerning Jon Snow's possible role in uniting the Starks against the threat of the Others, which I think you'd find an interesting read.

On 4/12/2016 at 7:57 PM, sweetsunray said:

Allegedly though, Hades had a mistress before he had a wife, the naiad (water nymph) Minthe, or at least Minthe coveted Hades and wished to seduce him. Minthe was jealous of Persephone and boasted she would have Hades for her lover (again). Equally possessive, Persephone silenced Minthe once and for all by turning her into a plant, the sweet-smelling mint, and in some versions then tramples her.

“Near Pylos, towards the east, is a mountain named after Minthe, who, according to myth, became the concubine of Haides, was trampled under foot by Kore [Persephone], and was transformed into garden-mint, the plant which some call Hedyosmos.” (Strabo, Geography 8. 3. 14 (trans. Jones), Greek geographer C1st B.C. to C1st A.D.)

“Mint (Mintha), men say, was once a maid beneath the earth, a Nymphe of Kokytos, and she lay in the bed of Aidoneus (Hades); but when he raped the maid Persephone from the Aitnaian hill [Mount Aitna in Sicily], then she complained loudly with overweening words and raved foolishly for jealousy, and Demeter in anger trampled upon her with her feet and destroyed her. For she had said that she was nobler of form and more excellent in beauty than dark-eyed Persephone and she boasted that Aidoneus (Hades) would return to her and banish the other from his halls: such infatuation leapt upon her tongue. And from the earth spray the weak herb that bears her name.” (Oppian, Halieutica 3. 485 (trans. Mair), Greek poet C3rd A.D.)

 

You don't mention LF, but I'm sure your mention of Minthe reminded everyone of LF. 

LF is known for chewing mint.  The Minthe echo is a bit inversed though.  LF fought for Catelyn's hand.  You mention Catelyn fulfills the role of Persephone in part of the story.  So we have "Mint" fighting for "Persephone's" love, instead of Hades'.  And a possible "Hades" parallel (Brandon) is the one that "tramples Mint into the ground"/defeats him.

On 3/18/2016 at 0:10 PM, sweetsunray said:

Aphrodite links to Persephone in two ways. As the “fairest”, Aphrodite gets the golden apple, which makes her an “apple bearer”. But this is also an epiteph for Demeter, Persephone’s mother. If Demeter is the goddess of cultivation, including bearing apples, Persephone is the vegetation and fruit itself, and thus the golden apple. The second link between them is through the Mesopotamian goddess Ishtar. Persephone’s myth is an echo of Ishtar’s journey into the Underworld. Ishtar was not the goddess of the Underworld – her sister was – and she was not abducted, but she traveled there to retrieve her dead husband and kept as a prisoner there. While this fertility goddess was imprisoned all sexual activity ceased, until the heavenly gods intervened and had her freed again. Ishtar was also the goddess of love and the planet Venus, and thus the equivalent of the Greek Aphrodite.

I notice a similarity between these figures and Idunn, who is also associated with apples and abduction.  You've already drawn the connection to apples with Aphrodite and Persephone.  Idunn was the keeper of sacred apples that kept the gods immortal.  The story of Idunn's abduction is also similar to Persephone's and Ishtar's.

While Persephone, Ishtar, and Idunn were being held against their will, the means to create and maintain life ceased. Persephone's abduction brought winter and death to harvests.  Ishtar's imprisonment ceased all sexual activity.  Idunn's abduction led to the gods no longer being immortal.  Aphrodite is never abducted, but we still see her connected to "abduction" and "apple" via Helen of Troy, as you've pointed out.

Catelyn/Stoneheart searching for her daughters parallels Demeter searching for her daughter Persephone.  And Sansa's "abduction plot" in ASoIaF greatly resembles Idunn's:  Idunn was kidnapped during a banquet at Asgard; Sansa was abducted during Joffrey's wedding feast in King's Landing.  Idunn was kidnapped by Thjazi, a giant in the form of a bird (an eagle); Littlefinger is a giant (or rather a titan) "disguised" as a bird.  His house's arms feature the head of the Titan of Braavos, though his personal arms feature a mockingbird.  Thjazi hides Idunn in a great mountain; LF hides Sansa in the Eyrie/the Vale.

And since we're on the topic of apples and Sansa, you might find it interesting that Sansa is also a type of apple.

Although these mythological figures share a similar story, they are goddesses of different aspects.  Ishtar is the goddess of love, Persephone is the goddess of the underworld, and Idunn is the goddess of youth.  (Although Idunn is considered by some to be an aspect of Freyja, the Norse goddess of love.  In Der Ring des Nibelungen, Wagner combines Idunn and Freyja into one figure: Freia.)  Whether a goddess of love, of the underworld, or of youth, these goddesses are all associated with fertility.  I'm not sure what the implications of this could be, not without speculating what happening in the future books, which I was hoping to keep to a minimum.

It appears that GRRM's "apples" (symbols of fertility) are pears in ASoIaF.  Daenerys gives Daario a pear, and shortly after chooses Daario for her lover.  Later, she possibly miscarries his child in the Dothraki Sea.  In the same book, Daenerys catches Viserion sleeping under a pear tree, his (or her?) head resting on his tail.  It's reminiscent to the ouroboros, which represents life, death, and rebirth.  Bats also represent death and rebirth.  I'm trying to keep speculation of future events out of this post, but fertility (via the pears) and bats (which represents rebirth) are associated with both Viserion and Sansa.  Implications could be Viserion playing a role in Sansa's arch in some way, or Viserion and Sansa's arch somehow paralleling each other in future books.  I don't wanna go too off topic with this thought; there's the Bat and Wolf thread in my signature though, if anyone wants to add to this.

On 3/18/2016 at 0:10 PM, sweetsunray said:

Sky Father Zeus became king of the gods after he and his siblings deposed the Titans. His paranoid, cruel father Cronus ate all his siblings fearing that one day they would depose him. Zeus’ mother Rhea hid him, and Zeus made his father throw up his siblings. Once the Titans were banished to Tartarus, Zeus, Hades and Poseidon split the rule amongst each other, with Hades (which means ‘Unseen’) ruling the underworld, Poseidon the sea and Zeus ruling Olympus.

You parallel Robert, Stannis, and Ned to Zeus, Poseidon, and Hades.  Do you have any ideas about who might parallel these three figures by the end of the series?  The number of figures (3) reminds me of a dragon with three heads.  (Although, sure, may be coincidence.)  Perhaps the Zeus, Poseidon, and Hades parallels will be Targaryens?  I find it worth noting that there are theories out there that concern Westeros being broken up into three separate kingdoms at the end of the series.

On 3/18/2016 at 0:10 PM, sweetsunray said:

Persephone – who also goes by the name Kore (‘maiden’) – was the beloved daughter of the harvest goddess Demeter.

The Maiden is also one of the gods of the Seven.  I'm not sure if this is canon, but this picture depicts The Maiden under a crescent moon, with a bird and a dog (or wolf?).  Sansa's first menstruation and Daenerys' miscarriage occur during a crescent moon, Sansa is commonly (at least in the first few books) associated with birds, and both Sansa and Arya had/have wolves.  Idunn (a Sansa parallel) was also known to keep a dog or a wolf (stories vary) at her feet. 

Currently in the story, "Demeter" (the Mother, Catelyn) is searching for her "Maiden(s)."  Catelyn, Sansa, and Arya, in addition to being associated with the aspects of the Mother and the Maiden, are aslo associated with the aspect of the Stranger.  Catelyn is undead, Sansa is related to a prophecy of having serpents in her hair and slaying a giant, and Arya is currently training with the House of Black and White, who worship the Stranger.  Persephone, as Kore "the Maiden" and goddess of the the Underworld, can be associated with the Seven's "Maiden" and "Stranger" as well.  (However, I will note that increasingly the aspect of the Mother can be associated with Sansa, and imagery of birds is being replaced with bats.)

There are other names that have caught my attention.  Freyja means "lady" and is even used as the title "Lady" for women.  Sansa parallels Idunn, who is considered to be an aspect of Freyja.  The name Arya has always struck me as a nickname for Artemis.

On 3/18/2016 at 0:10 PM, sweetsunray said:

• Her son Zagreus-Dionysus, god of wine and madness
• Her son Iacchus-Dionysus, torch bearer, divine child, light bringing star in the night

I recently came across the story of John Barleycorn.  I see a resemblance to the story of Dionysus and felt I should reference it.  John Barleycorn is the personification of barley and the importance of the products produced from barley, like beer and whiskey.  John Barleycorn is thought to have evolved from Beowa, an Anglo-Saxon god of barley and agriculture.  Per wiki, "the folksong details the suffering, death, and resurrection of Barleycorn, yet also celebrates the 'reviving effects of drinking his blood'."  Both John Barleycorn and Dionysus are associated with a particular harvest and the alcohol it produces (John Barleycorn with barley and beer; Dionysus with grapes and wine), as well as with death and resurrection.  Another figure associated with alcohol, blood, and resurrection is Jesus, via the Eucharist.  During communion, wine is said to be the "blood of Christ."  Also note that the song of John Barleycorn is also said to be a celebration of the "reviving effects of his blood."

Alcohol is connected to the death of Brothers of the Watch in two examples in ASoIaF.  The first is Dolorous Edd's tale of a dead Brother who fell and drowned in wine:

"I knew a brother drowned himself in wine once. It was a poor vintage, though, and his corpse did not improve it."

"You drank the wine?"

The second is Maester Aemon, who is being preserved in a cask of blackberry rum.  After his death, Gilly and Sam drink rum (though not the same rum!) in honor of Maester Aemon's memory, which leads to them having sex.

In the first example, the "Brother Wine" is reminiscent to the Eucharist.  In the latter, rum is used to preserve the dead and used (indirectly) in the production of new life.  (Note: Sam may or may not have gotten Gilly pregnant, but note that sex (ref: Ishtar) is a means to create new life, as I discussed above.)

I feel we'll see more themes in relation to alcohol, death, rebirth, and possibly harvest in relation to a dead Brother in WoW.

On 4/12/2016 at 7:57 PM, sweetsunray said:

Dainn, Dvalinn, Duneyrr, Durathro: four harts (stags of red deer) nibble at the leaves and the branches of the top. Their names mean ‘The Dead One’, ‘The Unconscious One’, ‘The Thundering One’ and ‘The Snoring One’ respectively.

In the House of the Undying, Daenerys sees a vision of four dwarfs ravishing a beautiful maiden.  Do you think the vision could be connected to this?  See also here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%A1inn,_Dvalinn,_Duneyrr_and_Dura%C3%BEr%C3%B3r#Theories

The harts eats the top of the leaves, inhibiting upward growth.  The maiden is said to represent Westeros, and the dwarves, four pretender kings.  The constant state of war inhibits social and cultural growth in Westeros.

On 4/12/2016 at 8:01 PM, sweetsunray said:

RE: grey-green

In your chart in Part 4, you state that grey-green represents death. 

Fire, earth, and ice appear to be the story's most important elements:  "Song of Ice and Fire," "Those who sing the Song of Earth."  White and red are the colors of the weirwood, black and blue are the colors of the shade of the evening tree.  In addition to white, grey, and black, a common color scheme is red, green, and blue.  Red, green, and blue are the colors of the Trident.  They are also the primary colors of light, which is also an element in worshiping the Seven (even if the Seven break up light in a different way).

So, there's already white and black, and red and blue via the weirwood and shade of the evening trees, respectively.  What's lacking in this color scheme is a "grey and green" tree.  I conclude that this grey and green tree is the grey-green sentinel tree.

What I gather about these trees is either 1. weirwood and shade of the evening trees (and, therefore, grey-green sentinel trees) are all somehow associated with death, which would match your chart OR 2. weirwood and shade of the evening represent death and life and ice and fire, and grey-green sentinels represent "both" and earth.

I'm leaning more towards my second assumption.  Weirwoods reside most prominently in the North, and fulfill the role of a "ice" and "death" tree.  Shade of the evening appears to make someone (near) immortal; the members of the House of the Undying drink it regularly.  Therefore, shade of the evening trees fulfill the role of a "fire" and "life" tree.  (With regards to "fire," keep in mind the numerous torches in the House, as well as the Undying power which seemed to increase via Daenerys.)  As for the grey-green sentinel, remember what Jojen says about earth: "If ice can burn," said Jojen in his solemn voice, "then love and hate can mate. Mountain or marsh, it makes no matter. The land is one."  Earth is not opposite to ice and fire, but coincides with it.  Therefore, it would make sense that we would see an "earth tree" in Winterfell, which is a place of ice.

On 4/12/2016 at 8:01 PM, sweetsunray said:

Osiris’ coffin, Isis and the golden phallus and Demeter of the golden sword

<snip>

Who/what do you see being the Horus parallel?  Catelyn is very far away from the Wall, but perhaps some sort of sacrifice with Oathkeeper (the golden phallus symbol) could be implemented, like how Lady's death supposedly helped Bran wake up from his coma.  Or perhaps the "rebirth" is Oathkeeper (a part of "Ice" and symbolically a part of Ned) becoming the new sword of House Stark, such as when/if Catelyn crowns one of her children?

ETA: Horus lost an eye while fighting his uncle, Set.  Loss of an eye in fight is a theme in ASoIaF as well.  Aemond loses an eye to a cousin, and his uncle Daemon drives a sword through his other eye.  Bloodraven loses an eye to his half-brother, Bittersteel.  Euron is missing an eye, it seems, but I don't know how it was lost.

Aemond places a sapphire in his empty eye socket; depictions of Horus' eye were commonly made out of lapis lazuli.  Both of these are blue.

[Daendrew]

@sweetsunray What were the five greatest fantasy books GRRM mentioned? I saw you mentioned it on your blog.

Lord of Light was one.

[deja vu]

@sweetsunray I just finished a re-read of aCoK. Tyrion XV documents Tyrion's recovery from his Battle of Blackwater Bay injuries. His journey seems (to me, at least) to fit so well with what you documented about the underworld in the chthonic cycle that I wonder what you think. Apologies, of course, if this has all been discussed before.

Tyrion XV begins with Tyrion in desperate shape. Towards the end of the chapter, Maester Ballabar describes the beginning of the chapter. Tyrion is in a cellar - the Underworld:

Quote

When we found you down in that cellar among the dead and dying, your wounds were filthy.

The chapter begins in the cellar, from Tyrion's perspective:

Quote

He dreamed of a cracked stone ceiling and the smells of blood and shit and burnt flesh. The air was full of acrid smoke. Men were groaning and whimpering all around him, and from time to time a scream would pierce the air, thick with pain. When he tried to move, he found that he had fouled his own bedding. The smoke in the air made his eyes water. Am I crying? He must not let his father see. He was a Lannister of Casterly Rock. A lion, I must be a lion, live a lion, die a lion. He hurt so much, though. Too weak to groan, he lay in his own filth and shut his eyes. Nearby someone was cursing the gods in a heavy, monotonous voice. He listened to the blasphemies and wondered if he was dying. After a time the room faded.

The next 6 paragraphs seem to describe Tyrion's journey from the land of the dead back where the colors are white and gray (Stark colors) and black, trying to get back to the land of the living - "the city" - but he finds the gates of the city closed to him...

Quote

He found himself outside the city, walking through a world without color. Ravens soared through a grey sky on wide black wings, while carrion crows rose from their feasts in furious clouds wherever he set his steps. White maggots burrowed through black corruption. The wolves were grey, and so were the silent sisters; together they stripped the flesh from the fallen. There were corpses strewn all over the tourney fields. The sun was a hot white penny, shining down upon the grey river as it rushed around the charred bones of sunken ships. From the pyres of the dead rose black columns of smoke and white-hot ashes. My work, thought Tyrion Lannister. They died at my command.

 

At first there was no sound in the world, but after a time he began to hear the voices of the dead, soft and terrible. They wept and moaned, they begged for an end to pain, they cried for help and wanted their mothers. Tyrion had never known his mother. He wanted Shae, but she was not there. He walked alone amidst grey shadows, trying to remember . . .

 

The silent sisters were stripping the dead men of their armor and clothes. All the bright dyes had leached out from the surcoats of the slain; they were garbed in shades of white and grey, and their blood was black and crusty. He watched their naked bodies lifted by arm and leg, to be carried swinging to the pyres to join their fellows. Metal and cloth were thrown in the back of a white wooden wagon, pulled by two tall black horses.

 

So many dead, so very many. Their corpses hung limply, their faces slack or stiff or swollen with gas, unrecognizable, hardly human. The garments the sisters took from them were decorated with black hearts, grey lions, dead flowers, and pale ghostly stags. Their armor was all dented and gashed, the chainmail riven, broken, slashed. Why did I kill them all? He had known once, but somehow he had forgotten.

 

He would have asked one of the silent sisters, but when he tried to speak he found he had no mouth. Smooth seamless skin covered his teeth. The discovery terrified him. How could he live without a mouth? He began to run. The city was not far. He would be safe inside the city, away from all these dead. He did not belong with the dead. He had no mouth, but he was still a living man. No, a lion, a lion, and alive. But when he reached the city walls, the gates were shut against him.

The next major events in Tyrion's arc are his marriage to Sansa followed by the purple wedding. Through aSos, aFFC, and AdoD Tyrion's journey is dark. It seems like this journey through the edges of the Underworld, only to find the gates of the city closed to him, is the beginning of the dark journey. What do you think? And can Tyrion ever make it back to "the city"?

[sweetsunray]

4 minutes ago, deja vu said:

@sweetsunray I just finished a re-read of aCoK. Tyrion XV documents Tyrion's recovery from his Battle of Blackwater Bay injuries. His journey seems (to me, at least) to fit so well with what you documented about the underworld in the chthonic cycle that I wonder what you think. Apologies, of course, if this has all been discussed before.

Tyrion XV begins with Tyrion in desperate shape. Towards the end of the chapter, Maester Ballabar describes the beginning of the chapter. Tyrion is in a cellar - the Underworld:

The chapter begins in the cellar, from Tyrion's perspective:

The next 6 paragraphs seem to describe Tyrion's journey from the land of the dead back where the colors are white and gray (Stark colors) and black, trying to get back to the land of the living - "the city" - but he finds the gates of the city closed to him...

The next major events in Tyrion's arc are his marriage to Sansa followed by the purple wedding. Through aSos, aFFC, and AdoD Tyrion's journey is dark. It seems like this journey through the edges of the Underworld, only to find the gates of the city closed to him, is the beginning of the dark journey. What do you think? And can Tyrion ever make it back to "the city"?

Yes, Tyrion makes underworld journeys, and I think he might have a bit of Hercules elements in him as well as Ishtar. He's the sole visitor of the King's entourage who decides to stay longer in the North and travel to the Wall. He appears again in Winterfell where he is threatened by the 3 direwolves (Cerberus combo) and knows he outstayed his welcome in the North. And at the "Crossroads" (Hecate related, and Hecate is a moon goddess who helps Demeter seek her daughter Persephone, and also chthonic) he is then kidnapped and taken to the Vale.

Ishtar is a Mesopotanian fertility goddess, of love (like Aprhodite) and sex. She travels to the underworld to retrieve her dead lover. Ishtar's sister is the ruler of the underworld. And the two sisters don't get along actually. Ishtar must pass gates (Bloody Gate, Gates of the Moon, the waygates along the mountain path) to get to her sister. But once she arrives there, she's put in prison. Because of this, all animals and humans stop having sex, so eventually the sister is made to release Ishtar. It seems to me that George has split the Ishtar legend between Cat and Tyrion. Cat's POV shows the chthonic voyage, whereas Tyrion is imprisoned, but eventually released because of the gods (the battle that Bronn wins).

While neither Ishtar and Hercules are actual chthonic characters that rule or reside in the underworld, they are chthonic travelers, and survive such a voyage. Other figures who in mythology have succeeded in this are Orpheus (but failing his mission), Dionysus (succeeding his mission), Psyche (succeeding, but makes a near fatal vanity error upon resurfacing, and is then saved by Cupid), Aeneas (golden bough), Odyssey (a glimpse only though).

Overall I have the impression that George uses mostly "wives of/sister of/mother of" chthonic rulers for Cat (Persephone, Demeter, Ishtar, Isis) and only models her effectively as a chthonic ruler herself once she's resurrected as LS, while Tyrion has many of the chthonic journey heroes and heras worked into him, but so far seems to have failed:

• As Hercules figure, he does the opposite of Hercules - pees his own pants when the direwolves threaten him, and he loses the Hound at the Battle of the Blackwater.
• As Ishtar he gets imprisoned (this has negative consequences for the realm, with everyone dying in the RL), and released, but hasn't found his Tysha (which is also Orphic). But he definitely has the sex-crazed reputation and "whores element (Ishtar priestesses were religious prostitutes)
• There's the Dionysus element of drinking. Dionysus travels into the underworld to secure his human mother (he was born twice). Only the wine element seems to feature in Tyrion's arc, and in a negative way.
• His boat trip with Griff is Odyssey like, and it has those mists, and the people on the boat probably all at least have an identity of someone who's believed to be dead (JonCon, Aegon, the others is only speculative), and he plays chyvasse like a cunning Odysseus.

There's also the Bloody Flux chapters, and his battle at the Green Fork, oh an his near execution and imprisonment after the Purple Wedding. He escapes death narrowly several times since aGoT. I think he's meant to bring someone back who's believed to be dead. He might possibly have an Aeneas arc too - founding a new government/House from the ashes of years of war (Aeneas was a Trojan, son of Venus, who fled Troy on time and settled in Italy eventually, and regarded as the founding father of the Romans).

[J. Stargaryen]

On 3/18/2016 at 4:18 PM, sweetsunray said:

Last but not least, Ned thrice-damns himself. The kindly man of the order of the Faceless Men would call it Ned’s sacrifice to seal his curse with blood. If the image of the blindness and immobility did not make the reader consider he’s a dead man sitting, his self-damnation seals it. A voyage into the Underworld leads to a path of no return. Though Ned is led to believe there is a chance of life if he confesses his treason, there are hints regarding his leg that tell us that even if Joffrey had not chopped his head off, that Ned was a dead man.

This reminds of something I've pointed out in the past. Two chapters after Ned describes himself as a "thrice-damned blind fool" blind Maester Aemon tells Jon that the gods saw fit to test his vows on three occasions. A neat little parallel in light of RLJ, since that makes Ned and Aemon Jon's uncles, from each side of his family. Though Aemon is a few generations back.

Quote

It is quite possible that both Winterfell and Highgarden are Asgard root locations equally, as each other’s counterparts. This would fit the many other times Highgarden is set against Winterfell – Robert’s life speech, the roses, Renly thinking Margaery might look like Lyanna, Loras basically re-enacting joust mummery with his grey mare and blue forget-me-nots as stand-in for Lyanna. It is as if Highgarden and Winterfell are two sides of the thematical same coin.

Or possibly Rhaegar. Ser Loras is called the Knight of Flowers, which might be one way of describing a knight presenting flowers. In either case, it's certainly reminiscent of the HH tourney. I have a few posts on the topic, which can be found here, here and here.

[sweetsunray]

9 minutes ago, J. Stargaryen said:

This reminds of something I've pointed out in the past. Two chapters after Ned describes himself as a "thrice-damned blind fool" blind Maester Aemon tells Jon that the gods saw fit to test his vows on three occasions. A neat little parallel in light of RLJ, since that makes Ned and Aemon Jon's uncles, from each side of his family. Though Aemon is a few generations back.

Or possibly Rhaegar. Ser Loras is called the Knight of Flowers, which might be one way of describing a knight presenting flowers. In either case, it's certainly reminiscent of the HH tourney. I have a few posts on the topic, which can be found here, here and here.

The reason why I think it's Lyanna is because Loras' horse is a "mare", and the mare is made to "dance" and in heat, making the big "black" stallion all horny (Robert) and difficult to "control". And it eventually leads to a beheading scene that mirrors that Ned's beheading. 

https://sweeticeandfiresunray.wordpress.com/2015/11/09/the-trail-of-the-red-stallion-i-lyanna-eddard-stark-and-aftermath/

[J. Stargaryen]

14 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

The reason why I think it's Lyanna is because Loras' horse is a "mare", and the mare is made to "dance" and in heat, making the big "black" stallion all horny (Robert) and difficult to "control". And it eventually leads to a beheading scene that mirrors that Ned's beheading. 

https://sweeticeandfiresunray.wordpress.com/2015/11/09/the-trail-of-the-red-stallion-i-lyanna-eddard-stark-and-aftermath/

That could be correct, and it was my original thought too. And that makes sense if you're limiting it to just that scene. But as a whole, I think Ser Loras at the TotH evokes Rhaegar, Lyanna, HH, and the ToJ even.

Btw, great read.

[sweetsunray]

24 minutes ago, J. Stargaryen said:

That could be correct, and it was my original thought too. And that makes sense if you're limiting it to just that scene. But as a whole, I think Ser Loras at the TotH evokes Rhaegar, Lyanna, HH, and the ToJ even.

Btw, great read.

Oh true. Once Loras won and we get to the scene after the beheading Loras is "the boy" and thus neither Rhaegar nor Lyanna anymore. It is just in the prancing, dancing mare scene with blue forget-me-nots that we get a Lyanna evocation. And it certainly is a callback to the HH tourney for Ned: slender as a "reed", "forget me not", "blue flowers", dancing and men getting horny. But psycholigcally I think Ned's looking metaphorically at 2 people he loved when Gregor and Loras appear at either side to joust each other: Robert and Lyanna at opposing sides, where Robert wanted Lyanna, but Lyanna wasn't keen on him. Ned believed that everything would turn out well. That Robert loved her so much it would be a great match - his BF and his beloved sister. He ignored the warnings, backed Robert, and after everything is done and fought for he learns the truth, has seen the darker side of Robert and that his own sister gave birth to a child that Robert would see dead. Still, all that time he backs Robert politically. It's only on Robert's deadbed that he judges Robert to not be as bad as the Mad King.

And of course let's not forget the possibility that the mysterious knight at HH might have been Lyanna herself. The Knight of the Laughing Tree probably needed to use some "tricks" other than skill up her sleeve to best those other 3 knights.

And thanks

[Isobel Harper]

I've been kinda obsessed with House Velaryon since reading (or rather listening to) TPaTQ and TRP, so I'm not sure how this escaped me, especially after encountering this thread or during rereads of it. 

House Velaryon appears to be another house filling the role of Lord of the Underworld, a role they're also tied to mythologically.  House Velaryon was granted their seat from the Merling King.  The Merling King is a figure of death; Arya notes sailors worshipping the Merling King in the House of Black and White.  Additionally, seahorses (in real life, ancient Europe) were thought to carry the souls of dead sailors to the Underworld.  

I'm tempted to dissect the Patchface prophecy concerning seahorses but I'm not sure how to with this information...

It's already been noted by many that the prophecy pertains to death and/or wights in some way.  If the interpretation of "death" is correct, then the use of seahorses makes sense: the seahorses carry the dead.  

The mermaids in the prophecy don't pertain to House Velaryon it seems, but might pertain to House Manderly or even to House Stark.  I'll explain.  

The mermaids symbolizing House Manderly is easy to conclude: their sigil is a merman.  As for the Starks...

The closest parallel to a mermaid in Slavic mythology is the rusalka.  (Forgive me if I've mentioned the rusalka to you before.)  Here's a description of a rusalka from wiki:

It is accounted by most stories that the soul of a young woman who had died in or near a river or a lake would come back to haunt that waterway. This undead rusalka is not invariably malevolent, and would be allowed to die in peace if her death is avenged. Her main purpose is, however, to lure young men, seduced by either her looks or her voice, into the depths of said waterways where she would entangle their feet with her long red hair and submerge them. Her body would instantly become very slippery and not allow the victim to cling on to her body in order to reach the surface. She would then wait until the victim had drowned, or, on some occasions, tickle them to death, as she laughed.[5] It is also believed, by a few accounts, that rusalki can change their appearance to match the tastes of men they are about to seduce, although a rusalka is generally considered to represent universal beauty, therefore is highly feared yet respected in Slavic culture.

Sounds a lot like Lady Stoneheart, no?  Catelyn died near water, has red hair, haunts a waterway (the Trident), and might be at peace if only she were avenged. Some of her victims ARE seduced to their death, albeit via camp followers employed by the BwB.  In other versions (unless I'm mistaken) rusalki have green hair, which ties back to House Manderly: the merman of their sigil has green hair and Wylla Manderly even dyes hers green.  

Note also in the wiki description that a rusalka can sometimes change her appearance.  Sample chapters spoilers...

Spoiler

Arya does just this.  She changes her appearance (becomes Mercy) and lures Raff the Sweetling to his death.

Sansa also seduces HtH, although not to his death...  Or not yet? 

"Mermaids" in this case might not just pertain LSH or the Manderlys but to the Stark girls as well.

Overall, it seems that Patchface's prophecy involves vengeance or justice in some way, which the Lord of the Underworld takes responsibility for.