Margaery's Moon Tea

[Lost Melnibonean]

Last try...

For a moment assume that 1) Taena is working for Varys on Team Aegon, and that 2) Margaery has not been unfaithful to Tommen. Now consider Varys's agenda. Regardless of whether you believe Aegon is the son of Rhaegar or a Blackfyre pretender, we know he wants to sow division among the Lannister-Tyrell alliance that secures Tommen’s seat upon the Iron Throne. Keep in mind that these two scenes occur in the Red Keep where the spiders hears and sees all. . .

When Dorcas returned with Ser Osney Kettleblack, the queen dismissed her ladies. "Come sit with me by the window, Ser Osney. Will you take a cup of wine?" She poured for them herself. "Your cloak is threadbare. I have a mind to put you in a new one."

"What, a white one? Who's died?"

. . . Cersei walked her fingers up his laces. She could feel him stiffening through his breeches. "Was that a new horse you were riding in the yard yestermorn?"

"The black stallion? Aye. A gift from my brother Osfryd. Midnight, I call him."

How wonderfully original. "A fine mount for a battle. For pleasure, though, there is nothing to compare to a gallop on a spirited young filly." She gave him a smile and a squeeze. "Tell me true. Do you think our little queen is pretty?"

Ser Osney drew back, wary. "I suppose. For a girl. I'd sooner have a woman."

"Why not both?" she whispered. "Pluck the little rose for me, and you will not find me to be ungrateful."

"The little . . . Margaery, you mean?" Ser Osney's ardor was wilting in his breeches. "She's the king's wife. Wasn't there some Kingsguard who lost his head for bedding the king's wife?"

"Ages ago." She was his king's mistress, not his wife, and his head was the only thing he did not lose. Aegon dismembered him piece by piece, and made the woman watch. Cersei did not want Osney dwelling on that ancient unpleasantness, however. "Tommen is not Aegon the Unworthy. Have no fear, he will do as I bid him. I mean for Margaery to lose her head, not you."

That gave him pause. "Her maidenhead, you mean?"

"That too. Assuming she has still one." She traced his scars again. "Unless you think Margaery would prove unresponsive to your . . . charms?"

Osney gave her a wounded look. "She likes me well enough. Them cousins of hers are always teasing with me about my nose. How big it is, and all. The last time Megga did that, Margaery told them to stop and said I had a lovely face."

"There you are, then."

"There I am," the man agreed, in a doubtful tone, "but where am I going to be if she . . . if I . . . after we . . . ?"

". . . do the deed?" Cersei gave him a barbed smile. "Lying with a queen is treason. Tommen would have no choice but to send you to the Wall."

"The Wall?" he said with dismay.

It was all she could do not to laugh. No, best not. Men hate being laughed at. "A black cloak would go well with your eyes, and that black hair of yours."

"No one returns from the Wall."

"You will. All you need to do is kill a boy."

"What boy?"

"A bastard boy in league with Stannis. He's young and green, and you'll have a hundred men."

Kettleblack was afraid, she could smell it on him, but he was too proud to own up to that fear. Men are all alike. "I've killed more boys than I can count," he insisted. "Once this boy is dead, I'd get my pardon from the king?"

"That, and a lordship." Unless Snow's brothers hang you first. "A queen must have a consort. One who knows no fear."

"Lord Kettleblack?" A slow smile spread across his face, and his scars flamed red. "Aye, I like the sound o' that. A lordly lord . . ."

". . . and fit to bed a queen."

He frowned. "The Wall is cold."

"And I am warm." Cersei put her arms about his neck. "Bed a girl and kill a boy and I am yours. Do you have the courage?"

Osney thought a moment before he nodded. "I am your man."

. . .

That night the queen summoned Lady Merryweather to her bedchamber. "Will you take a cup of wine?" she asked her.

"A small one." The Myrish woman laughed. "A big one."

"On the morrow I want you to pay a call on my good-daughter," Cersei said as Dorcas was dressing her for bed.

"Lady Margaery is always happy to see me."

"I know." The queen did not fail to note the style that Taena used when referring to Tommen's little wife. "Tell her I've sent seven beeswax candles to the Baelor's Sept in memory of our dear High Septon."

Taena laughed. "If so, she will send seven-and-seventy candles of her own, so as not to be outmourned."

"I will be very cross if she does not," the queen said, smiling. "Tell her also that she has a secret admirer, a knight so smitten with her beauty that he cannot sleep at night."

"Might I ask Your Grace which knight?" Mischief sparkled in Taena's big dark eyes. "Could it be Ser Osney?"

"It could be," the queen said, "but do not offer up that name freely. Make her worm it out of you. Will you do that?"

"If it please you. That is all I wish, Your Grace."

Cersei IV, Feast 17

Through his little birds we must assume that Varys knows that Cersei is trying to catch Margaery in the act of treasonous adultery, and (based on one of our two assumptions stated above) that Margaery is not having any of it. And that assumption (that Margaery is not unfaithful to Tomen) seems very accurate based on this. . .

Ser Osmund Kettleblack fell in beside her on the steps, tall and lean in his Kingsguard whites. When Cersei was certain they were quite alone, she slid her arm through his. "How is your little brother faring, pray?"

Ser Osmund looked uneasy. "Ah . . . well enough, only . . ."

"Only?" The queen let a hint of anger edge her words. "I must confess, I am running short of patience with dear Osney. It is past time he broke in that little filly. I named him Tommen's sworn shield so he could spend part of every day in Margaery's company. He should have plucked the rose by now. Is the little queen blind to his charms?"

"His charms is fine. He's a Kettleblack, ain't he? Begging your pardon." Ser Osmund ran his fingers through his oily black hair. "It's her that's the trouble."

"And why is that?" The queen had begun to nurse doubts about Ser Osney. Perhaps another man would have been more to Margaery's liking. Aurane Waters, with that silvery hair, or a big strapping fellow like Ser Tallad. "Would the maid prefer someone else? Does your brother's face displease her?"

"She likes his face. She touched his scars two days ago, he told me. ‘What woman gave you these?' she asked. Osney never said it was a woman, but she knew. Might be someone told her. She's always touching him when they talk, he says. Straightening the clasp on his cloak, brushing back his hair, and like that. One time at the archery butts she had him show her how to hold a longbow, so he had to put his arms around her. Osney tells her bawdy jests, and she laughs and comes back with ones that are even bawdier. No, she wants him, that's plain, but . . ."

"But?" Cersei prompted.

"They are never alone. The king's with them most all the time, and when he's not, there's someone else. Two of her ladies share her bed, different ones every night. Two others bring her breakfast and help her dress. She prays with her septa, reads with her cousin Elinor, sings with her cousin Alla, sews with her cousin Megga. When she's not off hawking with Janna Fossoway and Merry Crane, she's playing come-into-my-castle with that little Bulwer girl. She never goes riding but she takes a tail, four or five companions and a dozen guards at least. And there's always men about her, even in the Maidenvault."

"Men." That was something. That had possibilities. "What men are these, pray tell?"

Ser Osmund shrugged. "Singers. She's a fool for singers and jugglers and such. Knights, come round to moon over her cousins. Ser Tallad's the worst, Osney says. That big oaf don't seem to know if it's Elinor or Alla he wants, but he knows he wants her awful bad. The Redwyne twins come calling too. Slobber brings flowers and fruit, and Horror's taken up the lute. To hear Osney tell it, you could make a sweeter sound strangling a cat. The Summer Islander's always underfoot as well."

"Jalabhar Xho?" Cersei gave a derisive snort. "Begging her for gold and swords to win his homeland back, most like." . . .

"I couldn't say if he was begging, Your Grace," Ser Osmund answered. "Osney says he's teaching them the Summer Tongue. Not Osney, the quee—the filly and her cousins."

"A horse that speaks the Summer Tongue would make a great sensation," the queen said dryly. "Tell your brother to keep his spurs well honed. I shall find some way for him to mount his filly soon, you may rely on that."

"I'll tell him, Your Grace. He's eager for that ride, don't think he ain't. She's a pretty little thing, that filly."

Cersei V, Feast 24

So why not give Cersei a little ammunition even if the powder is damp?

Here’s the theory:

Varys has Taena go to Pycelle to tell the Maester to prepare moon tea for Margaery, discretely, of course. Pycelle’s oaths of service forbid him from divulging this freely. (See Cersei IX, Feast 39) Pycelle agrees and delivers the moon tea to Taena, who tosses it down a privy shaft. Then Taena slyly informs Cersei that Pycelle is serving Margaery. . .

"I understand the little queen has many admirers amongst our household knights. The Redwyne twins, Ser Tallad . . . who else, pray tell?"

Lady Merryweather gave a shrug. "Ser Lambert, the fool who hides a good eye behind a patch. Bayard Norcross. Courtenay Greenhill. The brothers Woodwright, sometimes Portifer and often Lucantine. Oh, and Grand Maester Pycelle is a frequent visitor."

"Pycelle? Truly?" Had that doddering old worm forsaken the lion for the rose? If so, he will regret it.

Cersei VI, Feast 28

But then, who informed Cersei that Pycelle was preparing moon tea for Margaery? It was not Taena as this passage makes clear. . .

"If it please Your Grace." Grand Maester Pycelle almost tripped over his own robes in his haste to leave.

Lady Merryweather closed the door behind him. "Moon tea," she said, as she turned back to the queen. "How foolish of her. Why would she do such a thing, take such a risk?"

"The little queen has appetites that Tommen is as yet too young to satisfy."

Cersei IX, Feast 39

So, who told Cersei that Margaery was drinking moon tea? We need to know this whether you like the Varys-Taena moon tea theory or not.

[Lost Melnibonean]

Quote

The little queen’s brown hair was tousled and uncombed, and the torchlight made her cheeks look flushed, as if she had just come from some man’s embrace.

Cersei, Feast 32

Well, was she? 

[Illyrio Mo'Parties]

My problem with some of this is that we don't look set to get a clear answer: anybody who would know has reason to lie, and we don't have a POV in the mix. I suppose it doesn't really matter, though.

[Lost Melnibonean]

I am just now rereading the Margaery moon tea bombshell, and this mystery still bugs me. 

1) Margaery was using moon tea for the same reason Asha and Arianne used it.

2) Margaery was using moon tea for some medicinal purpose. 

3) Margaery was requesting the moon tea for one of her ladies in waiting. 

4) Margaery was requesting the moon tea as part of some wacky Rube Goldberg plot to entrap Cersei. 

Well, which is it? 

[cyberdirectorfreedom]

18 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

I am just now rereading the Margaery moon tea bombshell, and this mystery still bugs me. 

1) Margaery was using moon tea for the same reason Asha and Arianne used it.

2) Margaery was using moon tea for some medicinal purpose. 

3) Margaery was requesting the moon tea for one of her ladies in waiting. 

4) Margaery was requesting the moon tea as part of some wacky Rube Goldberg plot to entrap Cersei. 

Well, which is it? 

I've got to say, I can't see how it could be 3 or 4. Number 4 is just absurdly dangerous; if that backfires in any way, it would at the very least destroy her reputation, possibly causing her to be either put aside or executed (none of which would be good for Margaery or the Tyrells, in general).

As for number 3, I just don't see it. I see this theory bandied about sometimes, and it makes some sense, but I just don't think it holds up; why would she take the risk, herself? Yes, she has more pull than her ladies, but she has enough pull to simply force Pycelle to help her ladies; enough pull that she doesn't have to put herself in any position that connects her with moon tea (because such a connection is dangerous, as we clearly see). Sure, having Pycelle help her ladies get moon tea might cause some to think that she's being sly and cautious, using her ladies as a smokescreen, to get the tea for herself. But there'd be no proof of that, and having people believe that she might be hiding the fact that she's getting moon tea is better than just getting moon tea herself. I don't see it.

Number 2 is possible, and a good idea, but I don't really see it. Would it be worth it? Having any connection with moon tea is dangerous for her, even if she's just taking it as medicine, because there's no way to prove that it's being used for medicinal purposes. If anyone found out, as I said earlier, it could cause her to be put aside or killed. Someone said earlier that Tansy could be used to increase fertility and help prevent miscarriages, but what's the use? It'll be years before Margaery and Tommen start trying for children, and not having children right away isn't a huge issue, and if Margaery isn't having sex, they're not going to know how fertile she is. I don't think it's worth it to take moon tea to increase her fertility if it even has a chance of making people believe she's committing treason. Which it does. No, I don't see why she'd take that risk.

Which leaves number 1. Yeah, I think she might be having sex with someone, and someone who is obviously not Tommen. In my opinion, it's the only thing that fits. Why would she take the risk of going to Pycelle personally? Why, because she wants the fewest people possible knowing that she's having moon tea, she and Pycelle only. It might also explain why she doesn't go to a Tyrell maester. Any Tyrell maester probably reports to either Mace or Olenna, and her extramarital affair is counter to their plots. Pycelle probably isn't a known Lannister supporter, and he is the Grand Maester, after all, so he ought to keep silent about the Queen's business. I think avoiding being pregnant is the only thing that makes getting moon tea worth the risk.

Even if she is getting the moon tea because she's having sex, there's still (as yet) no proof of it, so it hardly invalidates Cersei's actions. It's still speculation, and the Tyrells (probably) have enough influence to prevent her from being tried simply because she's getting moon tea (for any number of reasons that she could lie about). It's entirely possible that Cersei believes (and that she's right to) that Margaery really is committing treason, but still feels compelled to frame her, to be sure she can't worm her way out of it.

If she's not having sex, then she's an idiot for getting the moon tea herself.

[Daenerys Targaryen's slave]

What some people need to remember is that Margaery is only 17 year old at this point in the story. And unlike fanfiction, you won't find any teenage mastermind politicians.

 

She was probably having sex with someone on the side, asked Pycelle for it because, like all teenagers, she makes mistakes and stupid decisions.

[Maxxine]

I don't remember this issue exactly so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. Are we convinced Pycelle is telling the truth about the moon tea. None of it makes sense. Even if she is having sex why would she go to Pycelle?  Seems like there would be a lot of other people she could go to who she would be better able to trust. Why would she ever trust Pycelle with this? I'm sure the Tyrells brought their own maester. She could've even went to Olenna. From what we know I don't think Olenna would've been too hard on her about it & never would've betrayed her

[Daenerys Targaryen's slave]

22 minutes ago, Maxxine said:

I don't remember this issue exactly so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. Are we convinced Pycelle is telling the truth about the moon tea. None of it makes sense. Even if she is having sex why would she go to Pycelle?  Seems like there would be a lot of other people she could go to who she would be better able to trust. Why would she ever trust Pycelle with this? I'm sure the Tyrells brought their own maester. She could've even went to Olenna. From what we know I don't think Olenna would've been too hard on her about it & never would've betrayed her

A mistake. Margaery is just a teenager whose strings are being pulled, not a political mastermind.

[El Dude]

Thank you @Lost Melnibonean for starting this post, I've been thinking about this on and off for a while and am happy others are curious as well. I'm surprised that no one's brought up the fact that Magery was inspected by some creepy old Septas who deemed that her maidenhead was not intact. Now, that could be due to riding horses (which she does a lot) but it certainly could point towards her promiscuity.

Also, did anyone else catch what happened to Hamish the harper? He was an old and fat guy who sang about Lord Renly's ride for Magery at her wedding and then went on to entertain Magery and her entourage once a fortnight. Cersei thinks he's too old and fat to be a potential sutor and decides to hang that on the Blue Bard, but has Hamish arrested anyways. When he's presented with his arrest warrent he faints and is sent to the dungeons. He dies there either from his self proclaimed breathing troubles or from Lord Qyburn's memmory jogging exercises.

BUT--couldn't he be Magery's fling? His song makes her cry its so beautiful. I would think that Magery is not one to get too hung up on looks and age if his music is that beautifully moving. And upon being charged with the warrent for his arrest he has a complete panic attack, faints, and perhaps dies from it. That looks like a guilty conscience to me. There may be some other hints that I can't recall at this point..

Anywho, bring on the push back!

[cyberdirectorfreedom]

3 hours ago, Maxxine said:

I don't remember this issue exactly so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. Are we convinced Pycelle is telling the truth about the moon tea.

I'm pretty convinced he's telling the truth; I think that the reason he's so reluctant to confess the moon tea situation is because it's true, not because he's being forced to lie. Of course, I could be wrong, but that's the feeling I get.

3 hours ago, Maxxine said:

Even if she is having sex why would she go to Pycelle?  Seems like there would be a lot of other people she could go to who she would be better able to trust. Why would she ever trust Pycelle with this? I'm sure the Tyrells brought their own maester. She could've even went to Olenna. From what we know I don't think Olenna would've been too hard on her about it & never would've betrayed her

Just going to shamelessly quote myself here.

8 hours ago, cyberdirectorfreedom said:

Pycelle probably isn't a known Lannister supporter, and he is the Grand Maester, after all, so he ought to keep silent about the Queen's business.

The point being, he's not Cersei's maester, nor is he Cersei's lapdog (far as anyone should know). He's the Grand Maester, the Crown's maester. Therefore, he serves the King and Queen first and foremost (or at least, he should). That includes keeping their secrets. I hardly think that Pycelle has a reputation for being a gossip, so he's not like to let Margaery's secrets slip to just anyone; but I also don't think that people know that he's a Lannister supporter. Tyrion had to forcefully interrogate Pycelle before he learned his true leanings, so if it's a secret to Tyrion, I think it'd be a secret to most. At least I think Tyrion didn't know:

"Always . . . for years . . . your lord father, ask him, I was ever his true servant . . . 'twas I who bid Aerys open his gates . . ."

That took Tyrion by surprise.

It looks like Tyrion wouldn't expect Pycelle to not look to the interests of the Crown. If Lannisters don't know Pycelle's Lannister leanings, why should the Tyrells? Besides, he wanted to keep it secret; we saw how he reacted when he was forced to speak.

4 hours ago, Maxxine said:

I'm sure the Tyrells brought their own maester. She could've even went to Olenna. From what we know I don't think Olenna would've been too hard on her about it & never would've betrayed her

I doubt Olenna would be pleased with the fact that Margaery is committing treason, if not for the fact that it could ruin their schemes, then for the fact that Margaery could be executed for it. Whether for the safety of Margaery, or the safety of her plots and schemes, she'd have every intention of stopping Margaery from seeing her lover. Pycelle wouldn't force her to stop; he might give counsel that what she's doing is a terrible, terrible idea, but that's it. What else could he do? She's a Queen, and he's sworn to keep her secrets and give her counsel, not restrict her actions.

Also, I'm pretty sure the Tyrell maesters would be loyal to Mace and Olenna first; if Margaery asked for moon tea from a Tyrell maester, Olenna and Mace would learn of it, I have no doubt.

[Illyrio Mo'Parties]

Doesn't Pycelle get cut off by Cersei mid-sentence? Perhaps he was going to say "oh, but it was just for her friend". Or offer some other extenuating circumstance.

[cyberdirectorfreedom]

30 minutes ago, Illyrio Mo'Parties said:

Doesn't Pycelle get cut off by Cersei mid-sentence? Perhaps he was going to say "oh, but it was just for her friend". Or offer some other extenuating circumstance.

When he was telling Cersei about it, yes, she cuts him off. But the only people there were Cersei, Pycelle, Taena and Ser Osmund. I honestly think he was just describing what it was for. Cersei mightn't know what moon tea is for. After all, she has only bedded King Robert, surely, so why should she need to know what moon tea is for?

When he confessed it before the court, however, he isn't cut off, and he makes no effort to temper the thought that she's using it for avoiding pregnancy. Here:

Pycelle had gone the color of curdled white. At council meetings the wretched old fool cannot say enough, but now that I need a few words from him he has lost the power of speech, the queen thought, before the old man finally came out with, "There is no need for me to examine her . . . her privy parts." His voice was a quaver. "I grieve to say . . . Queen Margaery is no maiden. She has required me to make her moon tea, not once, but many times."

"Queen Margaery is no maiden." He says it outright.

Also, Pycelle really didn't want to tell Cersei about it. If it was just for a friend, or if there was some reasonable excuse, he wouldn't be so worried, I think. Cersei had to threaten him before he told her. Here's the confession to Cersei (including the bits that insinuate that Cersei already knew what Pycelle had to say (the bold) which is curious. How did she know? Taena told her that Pycelle was often seen about Margaery; must've been for something secretive, something of a health concern. Perhaps she just deduced it. Still, interesting.):

Pycelle's fear was palpable. He is ripe enough. Time to squeeze the fruit and taste the juice. "If you are as leal as you claim, why are you lying to me? Do not trouble to deny it. You began to dance attendance on Maid Margaery before Ser Loras went to Dragonstone, so spare me further fables about how you want only to console our good-daughter in her grief. What brings you to the Maidenvault so often? Not Margaery's vapid conversation, surely? Are you courting that pox-faced septa of hers? Diddling little Lady Bulwer? Do you play the spy for her, informing on me to serve her plots?"

"I . . . I obey. A maester takes an oath of service . . ."

"A grand maester swears to serve the realm."

"Your Grace, she . . . she is the queen . . ."

"I am the queen."

"I meant . . . she is the king's wife, and . . ."

"I know who she is. What I want to know is why she has need of you. Is my good-daughter unwell?"

"Unwell?" The old man plucked at the thing he called a beard, that patched growth of thin white hair sprouting from the loose pink wattles under his chin. "N-not unwell, Your Grace, not as such. My oaths forbid me to divulge . . ."

"Your oaths will be of small comfort in the black cells," she warned him. "I'll hear the truth, or you'll wear chains."

Pycelle collapsed to his knees. "I beg you . . . I was your lord father's man, and a friend to you in the matter of Lord Arryn. I could not survive the dungeons, not again . . ."

"Why does Margaery send for you?"

"She desires . . . she . . . she . . ."

"Say it!"

He cringed. "Moon tea," he whispered. "Moon tea, for . . ."

"I know what moon tea is for." There it is. 

So yeah, private conversation, not a public confession. I don't see anything indicating that he was going to reveal any information that might prove Lady Margaery's innocence. After that conversation, they go on to talk about the death of Lord Gyles, and he makes no attempt to interject, nor does he make any attempt to explain at court, when he confesses before the public. I think that Pycelle believes (if he doesn't know one way or the other, though he might) that it's being used in the traditional sense.

[Daenerys Targaryen's slave]

Exactly. I'm thinking that people confuse Book!Margaery for TV!Margaery. Book Margaery does not want to be Queen, she is just a puppet whose strings are pulled by her grandmother and father.

 

She is smart to be sure, but not a mastermind. I'm certain that she probably didn't know about Pycelle's loyalty to the Lannisters, or she made a simple mistake in asking him, as all teenagers do.

[sweetsunray]

14 hours ago, cyberdirectorfreedom said:

It might also explain why she doesn't go to a Tyrell maester. Any Tyrell maester probably reports to either Mace or Olenna, and her extramarital affair is counter to their plots.

Margaery sent the Tyrell maester to Dragonstone to care for Loras.

[sweetsunray]

14 hours ago, cyberdirectorfreedom said:

If she's not having sex, then she's an idiot for getting the moon tea herself.

She may not be having sex, but have had sex a while ago and still need moon tea for herself. It's highly unlikely that Renly did not perform with Margaery on the wedding night. Plenty of gay men fathered children on women for centuries. But it can take up months before a woman realizes she's pregnant, especially if it's her first time at becoming a mother. If she has spotting, then it might appear to her as if she's having irregular light menses, and it might be 4-6 months later for the swelling to appear. Heck a HS classmate of mine who was pregnant in our senior year showed no swelling at all. When I met her after HS was over, I reckoned she had delivered already. But in fact, she had not yet. She told me her date was calculated a fortnight away, and that was an indian summer where she wore a top that showed her flat belly and shorts.

There's lots of pages between halfway aCoK and aFfC, but the timeline allows for a scenario where Margaery slept with Renly shortly before his death, got pregnant, came to KL, didn't believe she was pregnant and therefore believed she could get away with the claim she was a virgin still in order to marry Joffrey, have him poisoned and marry Tommen. Then she finally realizes that she is pregnant, just after she sends the Tyrell maester to Loras at Dragonstone and turns to Pycelle for help.

[cyberdirectorfreedom]

25 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

There's lots of pages between halfway aCoK and aFfC, but the timeline allows for a scenario where Margaery slept with Renly shortly before his death, got pregnant, came to KL, didn't believe she was pregnant and therefore believed she could get away with the claim she was a virgin still in order to marry Joffrey, have him poisoned and marry Tommen. Then she finally realizes that she is pregnant, just after she sends the Tyrell maester to Loras at Dragonstone and turns to Pycelle for help.

A perfectly reasonable theory, that she's pregnant with Renly's child, but Pycelle was visiting Margaery before Loras went to Dragonstone:

"If you are as leal as you claim, why are you lying to me? Do not trouble to deny it. You began to dance attendance on Maid Margaery before Ser Loras went to Dragonstone, so spare me further fables about how you want only to console our good-daughter in her grief."

I suppose Pycelle could've been visiting her for other reasons, before she sent her own maester away, but that seems unlikely.

[sweetsunray]

1 minute ago, cyberdirectorfreedom said:

A perfectly reasonable theory, that she's pregnant with Renly's child, but Pycelle was visiting Margaery before Loras went to Dragonstone:

"If you are as leal as you claim, why are you lying to me? Do not trouble to deny it. You began to dance attendance on Maid Margaery before Ser Loras went to Dragonstone, so spare me further fables about how you want only to console our good-daughter in her grief."

I suppose Pycelle could've been visiting her for other reasons, before she sent her own maester away, but that seems unlikely.

Is it? Would Margaery trust Pycelle from the very start? I agree that it's not generally known that Pycelle is a Lannister man above all. He's most of all a Tywin-man though, not Cersei's man. I would think though that Pycelle himself has his personal reasons to first gain Margaery's confidence more for Tommen's sake, and he would do that by visiting and being of service on other stuff. Olenna leaves at some point and Mace is besieging Storms End. Margaery would want to communicate, send letter to them and receive them. 

I find it highly unlikely that Margaery would beg Pycelle to come and give her moon tea with other maesters present who were left there to serve her and Loras, especially when she trust only a Tyrell maester to heal alleged mortally wounded Loras at Dragonstone. I don't buy the "she's scared of Olenna finding out!" Olenna killed a king for her. I don't think Margaery knows this, but she would know that Olenna would be there for her. They're an ambitious family, but also one that love each other to bits.

So, it seems far more likely that Pycelle first began to visit carrying her letters from Olenna or Mace to Margaery. He was heartily welcomed in a lively atmosphere of cakes, songs, acrobatics, and pretty young daisies. When one has an ache or a cough he offers medicine and meanwhile he opens his eyes and ears for Tommen's sake. The confidence builds, and when her own maester is gone, she turns to him for moon tea.

[cyberdirectorfreedom]

9 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

I find it highly unlikely that Margaery would beg Pycelle to come and give her moon tea with other maesters present who were left there to serve her and Loras, especially when she trust only a Tyrell maester to heal alleged mortally wounded Loras at Dragonstone. I don't buy the "she's scared of Olenna finding out!" Olenna killed a king for her. I don't think Margaery knows this, but she would know that Olenna would be there for her. They're an ambitious family, but also one that love each other to bits.

She wouldn't need to beg, just command, but I see what you're saying. If the unborn child was Renly's, then I doubt that Olenna would care all that much; she'd help cover it up, obviously. But if she is committing treason, and has no intention of stopping her treasonous activities (which is as I believe), then I really don't think she'd want Olenna to know. Olenna loves Margaery, but enough to willingly sit by and watch as Margaery walks into her grave, ruining all of Olenna's plans in the process (which is probably the secondary concern, to be fair, after Margaery's safety)? I doubt it. Olenna would have her stop, and if Margaery doesn't want to stop, she can't let Olenna find out. It's still all speculation either way, but it fits.

Onto Pycelle's visits, though. I suppose it's possible she might not want to just up and ask Pycelle for the moon tea if she doesn't know she can trust him, but what choice would she have, if she doesn't want the information to reach Olenna or Mace? She has no real reason to distrust Pycelle; by all accounts, he's a loyal servant of the Crown.

But I think that Pycelle's earlier visits had to do with moon tea, also (though yes, you're right, perhaps not all of them). Now, at the point that Pycelle is confessing to the court that he's made Margaery moon tea, I don't think all that much time has passed since news of Loras's injury had reached King's Landing (and, subsequently, Margaery sending their maester to him). A few weeks, at most, I'd say. However, this is as Pycelle confesses:

"I grieve to say . . . Queen Margaery is no maiden. She has required me to make her moon tea, not once, but many times."

How many "many times" is, exactly, is something I can't answer accurately. But do we really believe that Margaery has asked Pycelle for moon tea "many times" in the relatively short time between hearing Loras was injured and sending her maester away? During this time, one would think that she's more worried about Loras than whether or not she's pregnant. Would she require Pycelle to make her moon tea "many times" within this (relatively) short period? I might even suspect that the only visits that Pycelle paid her that didn't have to do with moon tea were the visits after she sent her maester to Dragonstone. It's possible he really was just looking in on her, as he claims:

"You have been much in Lady Margaery's company of late."

"Yes. Yes, I . . . Queen Margaery has been most distraught about Ser Loras. I provide Her Grace with sleeping draughts and . . . other sorts of potions."

Well, it's still just an idea, we don't have enough facts for anything more, but I think it fits the details perfectly well, and it's what's in my mind, going forwards. 

[sweetsunray]

38 minutes ago, cyberdirectorfreedom said:

But if she is committing treason, and has no intention of stopping her treasonous activities (which is as I believe), then I really don't think she'd want Olenna to know. Olenna loves Margaery, but enough to willingly sit by and watch as Margaery walks into her grave, ruining all of Olenna's plans in the process (which is probably the secondary concern, to be fair, after Margaery's safety)? I doubt it. Olenna would have her stop, and if Margaery doesn't want to stop, she can't let Olenna find out. It's still all speculation either way, but it fits

And I disagree with the idea that she would mistrust her own personal maester, as Queen Tyrell she is a higher mistress over him than Olenna and Mace. She trusts him with her beloved brother's life. And while she wouldn't want Mace to know stuff, it's quite clear that Olenna and Margaery have a close relationship, defends her against Mace, and also had a lover once. I would actually think that if Olenna was present at KL at all, Margaery would certainly turn towards to her grandmother for help on anything. It doesn't fit at all to me.

I am inclined to regard Pycelle's original confession separately than from the one in front of the council the second time. He's originally very reluctant to reveal anything to Cersei privately, until she threatens him with the dungeons after implying she suspect him of having poisoned Gyles Rosby, and threatening to turn to Qyburn other help. Kevan is MIA, Mace is at Storms End, Tarly at Maidenpool, Loras is allegedly dying and the actual queen (the spouse of the king) and all of her cousins, knights, etc are prisoners. Instead there's Aurane, the lickspittle Merryweathers and weak Swyft left on the council. Ladies of the court slip away asap in the throne room, probably to run for their lives when the septa declares what they accuse Margaery of and that they examined her. We all know that such courtly "confessions" are staged and pre-planned (see Sansa's chapter about Loras asking Joffrey to wed Margaery and accept him as Kingsguard). Cersei's thoughts make clear that when she tells Pycelle to inspect Margaery himself he is to speak. And first he does not, his demeanor obviously telling us he feels sick at saying his rehearsed line. In other words, Pycelle was threatened and grilled into making the public declaration as he did, and it's imo an exaggeration: many times. He's not turning the color of curded milk and bumbling through his words for fear to speak the truth in the throne room, but conflicted over telling a rehearsed lie to save his own skin.

[Red Man Racey]

20 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

I am just now rereading the Margaery moon tea bombshell, and this mystery still bugs me. 

1) Margaery was using moon tea for the same reason Asha and Arianne used it.

2) Margaery was using moon tea for some medicinal purpose. 

3) Margaery was requesting the moon tea for one of her ladies in waiting. 

4) Margaery was requesting the moon tea as part of some wacky Rube Goldberg plot to entrap Cersei. 

Well, which is it? 

A fifth option was presented:  someone (most likely Taena) was requesting the moon tea on Maraery's behalf to use it as evidence against her later. I don't necessarily think this is a likely option, but I bring it up just for completeness.

On to the analysis, I'll start with the options I feel are least likely.

Number 4:  almost assuredly incorrect; as others have said (and you describe it well as a "Rube Goldberg" plot) this is just too complex, convoluted, and doesn't have the payoff to warrant such a huge risk

Number 2:  possibly true but probably not; I think that we would have some indication or hint at a non-abortificant use by now, otherwise this would feel contrived

Number 5:  possibly true but still probably not; this suffers from some "Rube Goldbergness" of its own, it's not quite as crazy as 4, but not far behind in terms of complexity, however, this option does have a slightly better risk/reward ratio

Number 3:  very possible; Margaery is naïve enough to think that this is ok, that Pycelle will keep the secret and even if he doesn't, she isn't expecting his untimely murder so that he can't tell the whole truth of the situation (although his "untimely" murder could lend some credence to a Varys-Taena plot under option Number 5 since Varys kills him and now the truth has died with Pycelle thus ensuring that he can never reveal that Taena was actually requesting the moon tea, but I digress). Also, the way Cersei cuts off Pycelle as he's talking could indicate this as the real situation.

Number 1:  most likely option; Occam's Razor, this is the simplest solution to the problem - Margaery is a young woman in her sexual prime and it's being wasted on a preteen. In the immortal words of Cyndi Lauper "Girls just wanna have fun." Just like in option Number 3 Margaery is naïve enough to believe that her secret is safe with Pycelle.

 

Overall, I think the probability breaks down like this 1>3>5=2>>4