Margaery's Moon Tea

[Lost Melnibonean]

1 hour ago, Magnar, P.I. said:

Ooh, now we're cooking! If so then Varys didn't murder Pycelle, he was lawfully executing him on behalf of the crown. Justice!

No silly, if Pycelle could be prosecuted based on that testimony, then that testimony was against interest, in which case, it would be more reliable. At least that's the theory behind admitting such hearsay evidence. 

[Seams]

I think this excerpt featuring Taena and Cersei may prove relevant to the mystery of Margaery's use of moon tea and/or to her possible secret lover:

"It saddens me to see Your Grace so careworn. I say, run off and play and leave the King's Hand to hear these tiresome petitions. We could dress as serving girls and spend the day amongst the smallfolk, to hear what they are saying of the fall of Dragonstone. I know the inn where the Blue Bard plays when he is not singing attendance on the little queen, and a certain cellar where a conjurer turns lead into gold, water into wine, and girls into boys. Perhaps he would work his spells on the two of us. Would it amuse Your Grace to be a man one night?"

 

If I were a man I would be Jaime, the queen thought. If I were a man I could rule this realm in my own name in place of Tommen's. "Only if you remained a woman," she said, knowing that was what Taena wanted to hear. "You are a wicked thing to tempt me so, but what sort of queen would I be if I put my realm in the trembling hands of Harys Swyft?"

(AFFC, Cersei VIII)

 

It's all going to zero in on the Blue Bard, in my opinion.

 

The image of highborn women dressing as serving girls and listening to the smallfolk evokes Arya, especially during her Harrenhal sojourn. She was also turned into a boy, although not by a conjurer (unless that's a side of Yoren we hadn't considered).

 

But the other female character who "turns into" a boy would be Brienne. Brienne has blue armor before she joins the rainbow guard. When she joins the rainbow guard and accepts a cloak from Renly, it reads like a Westerosi marriage ceremony, where she pledges herself to protect Renly with every ounce of her being (or words to that effect). Margaery and the Tyrells carry forward some of Renly's presence as the story continues (Garlan wearing his armor, for instance) so maybe this Blue Bard is to Margaery as Brienne was to Renly. Maybe the Blue Bard is taking the beating from Qyburn and appearing to repeat the lies about Margaery at this pre-trial stage of the proceedings because it is a way to survive and to protect Margaery in the long run. Especially if it turns out that the Blue Bard is a woman, as Brienne is underneath her blue armor. We have seen blue hair used as a disguise by Jon Connington and fAegon (and possibly Daario, who is also a queen's lover). We also know that Brienne is now on a quest to find and rescue Sansa, whose arc is parallel to Margaery's in many ways. If Sansa has the "blue knight," Brienne, looking out for her, it is not surprising that Margaery might have a Blue Bard looking out for her.

 

Cersei gathered up her skirts and dignity. "This must be very frightening for you. I shall forgive those words." Here, as at court, one never knew who might be listening. "I would be afraid as well, in your place. Grand Maester Pycelle has admitted providing you with moon tea, and your Blue Bard . . . if I were you, my lady, I would pray to the Crone for wisdom and to the Mother for her mercy. I fear you may soon be in dire need of both."

(AFFC, Cersei X)

 

This excerpt from Cersei's visit to the imprisoned Margaery also has an unfinished sentence in connection with the moon tea. The phrasing makes it sound as if Pycelle provided the Blue Bard for Margaery, as he provided the moon tea. That doesn't make sense, but GRRM loves to write sentences that say two things at once, or vaguely convey the true meaning under the meaning we inferred on a first reading. Could this passage be a hint to the reader that the moon tea was FOR the Blue Bard? This would seem to confirm the possibility that the bard is a young woman.

 

She would have to be fairly flat-chested, if she is a woman, because Qyburn runs his hand over her chest and cuts off a nipple. If you read that passage, there are a couple of references to what women feel or words they use that could be hints to the reader about the Blue Bard.

 

It's possible the Blue Bard isn't a woman, of course, and is truly Margaery's male lover and the reason she needs moon tea. Looking at the parallels to Sansa, we see the singer Marillion coming on too strong to Sansa with sexual overtures (and he says he will write a song about her called Roadside Rose, I think, which seems like a Tyrell allusion). So it might make sense that Margaery actually would have a singer for a lover.

 

I would also note that the Blue Bard claims his (her?) real name was Wat, and that his (her) father was a barrel maker. Barrels have "hatched" succulent crabs packed in snow as well as Tyrion, who hides in a barrel for his arrival in Essos. So I suspect that the Blue Bard will hatch at the trial and we will learn his/her true identity. Taena also says that the Blue Bard sings at an inn, and those seem to be nodes for secret meetings, unexpected encounters and hidden bastards.

 

The conversation between Taena and Cersei continues with what sounds like a reference to Qyburn, conjuring in a cellar. Pycelle did his work in a tower, I think (although I have suspected that he has been turning lead into gold to help Tywin finance the kingdom all these years). And then Cersei daydreaming about being Jaime (later, in bed, she fantasizes about being Robert).

[Daenerys Targaryen's slave]

Right...

 

I'm going with Margery being a teenage with raging hormones and a desire to NOT wait another 5 years to have sex.

 

In fact, I would not be surprised if Margaery does not truly believe that her position as Queen is less than temporary.

[cyberdirectorfreedom]

7 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

In combination with the first confession it and the type of scandal Cersei creates, purely based on false testimony, Pycelle lied.

Just because other people are lying, doesn't mean Pycelle is. There's no reason that Cersei wouldn't use the truth, if it was suitable. Also, Pycelle's confession to Cersei doesn't dispute the claim that he made moon tea for Margaery more than once. He confesses that his repeated visits to Margaery were because he was making moon tea for her. He says that the reason for his visits is that he's making moon tea for her. It's not even remotely a stretch to assume that means every visit was about moon tea. It's not really a stretch to assume that only a few (or even just one) of the visits were about moon tea. It's not heavily implied either way, though it makes me think that many (or all) of his visits concern the same subject, the moon tea.

7 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

And while anxiety could be expected about his office, Pycelle's physical discolorisation implies he feels ill or nauseous. People with values don't have such a physical response if they speak truthfully. Hence, he's lying.

Have you never felt ill or nauseous when doing something that you think is wrong (like lying, perhaps)? Either you've never done something you're morally opposed to, or you're a unique specimen. People don't like doing things they don't approve of. Things like lying, or breaking their oaths. Pycelle is, beyond any doubt, publicly breaking his oath, and as his first confession to Cersei shows, he doesn't want to.

That kind of reaction isn't limited to lying. It's really just a reaction people have when being forced to do things they think is morally wrong. Some people would react that way when being forced to kill someone, forced to steal from someone, etc. It's hardly proof that he's lying.

6 hours ago, Magnar, P.I. said:

Ooh, now we're cooking! If so then Varys didn't murder Pycelle, he was lawfully executing him on behalf of the crown. Justice!

That's, uh, not how justice works...

[sweetsunray]

@cyberdirectorfreedom we'll have to agree to disagree on this.

[Illyrio Mo'Parties]

15 hours ago, Maxxine said:

Do any of the characters in the story actually use the word abortion ever?  

Isn't abortion a modern word?

[Illyrio Mo'Parties]

@Seams - wouldn't Qyburn have noticed, and told Cersei? You can't hook electrodes up to somebody's bollocks if they ain't got none

[Ygrain]

As a non-native speaker, I do not dare to judge. Although a structure with "to + verb" would definitely be more natural for contemporary spoken English, I don't think that "for + -ing form" as a more "medievalish" way of speaking can be ruled out, either.

[Lost Melnibonean]

46 minutes ago, Illyrio Mo'Parties said:

Isn't abortion a modern word?

My understanding is that the act of purposely destroying the fetus after the quickening was akin to manslaughter or negligent homicide in medieval England. 

[Illyrio Mo'Parties]

6 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

My understanding is that the act of purposely destroying the fetus after the quickening was akin to manslaughter or negligent homicide in medieval England. 

Sure, probably. But I mean, the word abortion... well, I figured it was some modern medical term, but I stand corrected:

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=abort

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=abortion

It is apparently a few hundred years old

[sweetsunray]

9 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

My understanding is that the act of purposely destroying the fetus after the quickening was akin to manslaughter or negligent homicide in medieval England. 

No it wasn't. They had no concept of abortion nor conception, because they didn't understand the process nor stages of a full pregnancy. A child was not regarded as being alive until birthed. On average most women didn't find out they were pregnant around up to 2 months after conception. Nutrition wasn't rich and varied much either and this could affect periods. And of course women also miscarry without provocation. They simply weren't knowledgeable enough to say "this woman killed her unborn child" and "this woman lost it naturally".

Remember that the clergy were men who didn't have sex and hardly ever saw a woman up close. And most were overall medically ignorant. Having sex was a necessary "evil" for the lesser humans. Abstination from sex was the more moral life to strife for.

[Ygrain]

1 hour ago, sweetsunray said:

No it wasn't. They had no concept of abortion nor conception, because they didn't understand the process nor stages of a full pregnancy. A child was not regarded as being alive until birthed. On average most women didn't find out they were pregnant around up to 2 months after conception. Nutrition wasn't rich and varied much either and this could affect periods. And of course women also miscarry without provocation. They simply weren't knowledgeable enough to say "this woman killed her unborn child" and "this woman lost it naturally".

Well, they did know that miscarriage can be induced, and could tell a child brought to term from one born pretimely.

[Magnar, P.I.]

15 hours ago, cyberdirectorfreedom said:

That's, uh, not how justice works...

Oh so you get to decide what justice is? Who do you think you are, Darkwing Duck? 

 

12 hours ago, Illyrio Mo'Parties said:

@Seams - wouldn't Qyburn have noticed, and told Cersei? You can't hook electrodes up to somebody's bollocks if they ain't got none

Great point, seems to me a gaping flaw in the theory. Old Doc Q wouldn't have missed something like that, would he? If not in the scene where he slices BB's nipple off, then surely later on in the torture? Or is the implication that Cersei and Qyburn know already but we don't? Keep at it though, these unfinished sentences are quite intriguing!

[sweetsunray]

24 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

Well, they did know that miscarriage can be induced, and could tell a child brought to term from one born pretimely.

From wikipedia:

Quote

The Leges Henrici Primi, written c. 1115, treated pre-quickening abortion as a misdemeanor, and post-quickening abortion as carrying a lesser penalty than homicide.

Homicide = killing a man unintentionally.

In the middle ages a foetus wasn't regarded as being "alive" until the "quickening", which is the butterfly feeling a pregnant woman feels as the foetus moves in uterus. Quickening occurs between 18th-20nd week for a woman being pregnant for the first time. 15th-17th week for a women who has been pregnant several times before. These people had no sticks that turn blue, couldn't perform blood tests, no ultrasound... heck their surgeon skills were nothing beyond butchery.

And it was mighty difficult to prove whether a woman had a miscarriage or an abortion. Fathers were not likely to report their wives on it, as they had no birth control. Only lords who had a wife who regularly miscarried (and wished to set her aside for a new one) and who were able to get some midwife with potions arrested might end up accusing the midwife and wife of witchcraft to kill his sons. They woudln't be tried for abortion but witchcraft then. And poor woman if she was indeed just having miscarriage after miscarriage.

@The Dragon Demands can go into this with far more expertise than I do, however.

[Lost Melnibonean]

17 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

From wikipedia:

Homicide = killing a man unintentionally.

In the middle ages a foetus wasn't regarded as being "alive" until the "quickening", which is the butterfly feeling a pregnant woman feels as the foetus moves in uterus. Quickening occurs between 18th-20nd week for a woman being pregnant for the first time. 15th-17th week for a women who has been pregnant several times before. These people had no sticks that turn blue, couldn't perform blood tests, no ultrasound... heck their surgeon skills were nothing beyond butchery.

And it was mighty difficult to prove whether a woman had a miscarriage or an abortion. Fathers were not likely to report their wives on it, as they had no birth control. Only lords who had a wife who regularly miscarried (and wished to set her aside for a new one) and who were able to get some midwife with potions arrested might end up accusing the midwife and wife of witchcraft to kill his sons. They woudln't be tried for abortion but witchcraft then. And poor woman if she was indeed just having miscarriage after miscarriage.

@The Dragon Demands can go into this with far more expertise than I do, however.

You really ought to consider retaining that public maester. Homicide refers to the killing of a human, intentionally or unintentionally. Murder and lesser crimes involving the death of another human being are homicides. 

So, according to that Wikipedia article you quotes I was not wrong about post quickening, intentional destruction of a fetus in medieval England. It was akin to negligent homicide, no? 

[sweetsunray]

8 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

So, according to that Wikipedia article you quotes I was not wrong about post quickening, intentional destruction of a fetus in medieval England. It was akin to negligent homicide, no? 

less than homicide.

Since we're talking about the middle ages, we're talking Europe, not the US, where the concept of homicide usually covers unintentional killing.

[Magnar, P.I.]

12 hours ago, Illyrio Mo'Parties said:

@Seams - wouldn't Qyburn have noticed, and told Cersei? You can't hook electrodes up to somebody's bollocks if they ain't got none

 

27 minutes ago, Magnar, P.I. said:

Great point, seems to me a gaping flaw in the theory. Old Doc Q wouldn't have missed something like that, would he? If not in the scene where he slices BB's nipple off, then surely later on in the torture? Or is the implication that Cersei and Qyburn know already but we don't? Keep at it though, these unfinished sentences are quite intriguing!

Oh, just occurred to me BB could be a Faceless (wo)Man. Could even have balls- glamour balls!

[sweetsunray]

The whole problem is that the middle ages is a long time prior to the first millenium and almost another half millenia after the first. And a lot of views change from this to that to this again. And if we're talking Europe - well that was a constant chnageable patchwork plaid of duchies, baronies and earldoms, some under a church administration, others not. You had wars between bishops and dukes over territory, so the church wasn't this all legal power, and laws and views varied from territory to territory and lord to lord. The church's power only became strong enough to pursue people legally all over Europe in the 16th century, when Europe became more a set of empires and emperors backed the pope. But that's not the middle ages anymore.

There wasn't even a universal agreement and law what marriage was until the 12th century, or that a priest was to be present to legalize it.

What we can say overall over tha long time and various legal situations is that the religious view was that sex was only meant for procreation and that performing certain sexual acts or taking stuff to prevent conception was a sin. And yet, someone who ran to be elected pope wrote manuscripts that included all the apothecary knowledge of the time to prevent conception (anti-conception) or to help the menses to flow. In other words, if you skipped a period because you were pregnant and took tansy, you had performed an abortion, but as far as anybody else knew had just helped your menstruational cycle. The literature also shows disagreement from the same author, depending on the case.The records show that abortion was rarely a crime any administration tried to pursue, and if they did for mild punishments only.

Heck, the link I provide talks about a trial for a woman who had committed "infanticide" (drowned the baby after it was born) - she was found not guilty, for it was her body and her child and she was free to do as she wished with it. Sounds like she was not married, and thus might have been a prostitute. If she had been married, the child would be her husband's property, not hers.

http://www.medievalists.net/2013/12/birth-control-and-abortion-in-the-middle-ages/

[Maxxine]

14 hours ago, Illyrio Mo'Parties said:

Isn't abortion a modern word?

True. I was more asking because of a previous post about how Pycelle may have finished his sentence when he is saying why Margarey asked for moon tea.

[Lost Melnibonean]

3 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

less than homicide.

Since we're talking about the middle ages, we're talking Europe, not the US, where the concept of homicide usually covers unintentional killing.