Margaery's Moon Tea

[Magnar, P.I.]

I never considered the Taena-as-planted-triple-agent idea before, but it seems pretty convincing after reading this. Especially given Pycelle being cut off by Cersei while trying to explain away the moon tea. I agree that his subsequent testimony in court can't be trusted (modern legal evidenciary procedures notwithstanding), clearly at this point he has to go along with Cersei or get murdered so she can install a new Grand Maester. Also, this explains why Varys kills Pycelle at the end of DwD. Nice and neat.

Also very compelling is the "sloe-eyed" description, something that always stood out to me descriptively but never occurred to me as being otherwise significant. Good call on looking it up, Melbnonean. 'Purplish' eyes? We know what that means...Targs! Throw in the Varys Blackfyre theory and this whole thing starts to really come together. 

[sweetsunray]

4 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Not wanting to be too descriptive and crass, but to lose a baby at 5-6 months is not a physically easy thing. There is a large something there. Fetuses that size are somewhere between 10-14 inches long, bones are solidifying, external digits, ears, etc are mostly formed.

Which I understand. I was not trying to imply that would have been an easy abortion, quite traumatic, and likely requiring a lot of recovery as well as extensive "care", which explains Pycelle's multiple visits, and Margaery's elusiveness by staying indoors for a while, not going out riding anymore (yes, there's the news about Loras too).

4 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Fat Walda seems to have some symptoms and she is not that far along and a large sized lady. Dany at the end of ADWD even counts her cycle time. She would be counting her menstrual cycle and keeping mental note, especially is she was the queen and needed to be pregnant, or, the queen and needed to not be pregnant because Renly could not perform all the way/at all.

Counting cycles doesn't matter. Spotting as well as menses can occur while pregnant. My mother was 4 months pregnant, and miscarrying, not knowing what the hell was going on, because she kept having her menses. This was the 60s (and in Belgium abortion was illegal then), my parents had wedding plans but weren't married yet, and my father was nearly taken into custody by police for forcing my mother to abort when he brought her to the hospital. It was a miscarriage, but she didn't know she was pregnant until they told her what was wrong at the hospital. She was 24 at the time and a well informed professional woman (she was a social worker).

It doesn't happen often, and it would be deviating from the profile pregnancy, but every pregnancy is unique and there can be a lot of latitude on symptoms. Overall, in the middle ages, women generally on average did not figure out they were pregnant until their 2nd to 3rd  month, and that is when everything is normal. The younger women are and certainly with a first time pregnancy, the higher the risk that a pregnancy doesn't follow standard symptoms. It's a stretch, but not out of the realm of possibilities. Although Joffrey might be a more realistic candidate timeline wise. 

I don't think Margaery has been sleeping around. She's not a dumb girl, and yet has enough of that naivity combined with a sense of duty. Show-Marg is not book-Marg. I'm certainly not surprised she's not a virgin, given that she was married to Renly for at least half a year, and gay men can still perform, even if they prefer men. Even heteroxexual men end up having one night stands with women they don't find attractive the next morning after sobering up. And she may have slept with Joffrey to make him so initially happy. and fond of her. In both cases she would have done her duty, and the sole lie was that she was a virgin. She then discovers that she's pregnant, requires an abortion and medical aftermath care and thus Pycelle and her ladies in waiting (including Taena staying with her overnight instead of being with Cersei, because the other girls are younger than Margaery). Taena later informs Cersei off-page about Margaery having had an abortion, but with a twist (leaving Cersei ignorant of the father), explaining why Cersei knew what to drill Pycelle for.

Good thing we might differ on some issues.

[sweetsunray]

5 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

You should consider retaining a public maester. He might counsel you to bolster your argument by asserting that the unavailable declarant exception should not apply since the proponent wrongfully caused the declarant’s unavailability as a witness in order to prevent the declarant from attending or testifying. Otherwise, that testimony is coming in as former testimony and a statement against interest. 

Yes it is problematic for Mace. Mace has a lot of problems about now. This could make for a nice blue book exam in an evidence class. 

That is if you assume that the Faith is actively hostile towards Margaery. It appears they are not. They didn't just allow Margaery return to the Red Keep without a walk, but allow her to be with the king, meanwhile retaining the other girls and the knights. If the High Sparrow truly fears that Margaery was unfaithful to King Tommen would he allow her to have any contact with the king? That is quite unlikely. Nor does the Faith even seem interested in Pycelle's testimony. The HS has the truth out of Kettleback and it is likely that Margaery and certainly the other girls revealed what truly was going on (why she's not a virgin and what the moon tea was about). One Septa wants to say something about Margaery's brother btut is hushed up by another in the company of Cersei. It doesn't seem to me that HS is after Margaery, but after Cersei - making sure that she is so publically attainted that she cannot be Tommen's regent anymore. It seems to me that the HS is having a trial for Margarey to expose Cersei's plot against her and clear her name once and for all for the realm.  

[cyberdirectorfreedom]

16 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

We all know that such courtly "confessions" are staged and pre-planned (see Sansa's chapter about Loras asking Joffrey to wed Margaery and accept him as Kingsguard). Cersei's thoughts make clear that when she tells Pycelle to inspect Margaery himself he is to speak. And first he does not, his demeanor obviously telling us he feels sick at saying his rehearsed line. In other words, Pycelle was threatened and grilled into making the public declaration as he did, and it's imo an exaggeration: many times. He's not turning the color of curded milk and bumbling through his words for fear to speak the truth in the throne room, but conflicted over telling a rehearsed lie to save his own skin.

Of course it was staged; it was an act, but that doesn't mean that everyone had their lines scripted for them. Cersei knew how it was going to play out, and pushed the conversation in that direction, but that doesn't mean for a moment that she had told Pycelle what to say; only that he had to repeat what he told her.

The biggest reason I don't believe that Pycelle is exaggerating is that I don't see what purpose it serves; why lie when the truth is just as damning? Let's say that Margaery had only gone to Pycelle for moon tea the once; saying that to the court gets the same reaction. People will get the idea that Margaery is having sex, or has had sex, at least once, even though she (and her family) swore that she was still virgin. The exact same result is gained by telling the truth or telling a lie. So why bother lying?

I think he's telling the truth when he confesses in court; there are plenty of other reasons why he was clearly feeling uncomfortable about speaking of Margaery's secrets. The same reason he was so reluctant to tell Cersei in the first place, for one; he'd sworn an oath to serve the Crown, which now includes Margaery, and part of serving is to keep her secrets. Speaking her secrets aloud before the court (especially such a one as this) is not only breaking the oath he swore (and has presumably upheld, to the best of his abilities, for longer than most in that court had been alive), but it is also rather damning to his reputation. Who would want to confide in Pycelle now? Some quotes to support why he'd be uncomfortable:

"I . . . I obey. A maester takes an oath of service . . ."

"—wife?" Varys finished, with a smile that cut. "His brothers hate the Lannisters, true enough, but hating the queen and loving the king are not quite the same thing, are they? Ser Barristan loves his honor, Grand Maester Pycelle loves his office, and Littlefinger loves Littlefinger."

Pycelle loves his position, and part of keeping it (and your head) is to serve the King and Queen the best you can. He did not serve Margaery, with his confession. Confessing, as he did, could well have ruined him. Margaery would never trust him again (if she lives), Tommen probably wouldn't forgive him. Who would let him receive their messages? Who would make him privy to their secrets? Who would want his counsel? Very few, I'd say. Nobody would want him to know their sensitive information, because he's just proven he's willing to reveal it. He probably turned a "curdled white", and had trouble forcing himself to speak, not because it was a lie, but because he was throwing away his livelihood, part of his life that he cared for deeply. He'd spent almost his entire life being a fine maester, and I don't think it would be a stretch to say that it was his life.

There's a certain level of respect and trust that being Grand Maester affords you, and I don't think Pycelle has that anymore. I'd probably be reluctant to speak the truth, too, knowing the cost.

[Lost Melnibonean]

3 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

That is if you assume that the Faith is actively hostile towards Margaery. It appears they are not. They didn't just allow Margaery return to the Red Keep without a walk, but allow her to be with the king, meanwhile retaining the other girls and the knights. If the High Sparrow truly fears that Margaery was unfaithful to King Tommen would he allow her to have any contact with the king? That is quite unlikely. Nor does the Faith even seem interested in Pycelle's testimony. The HS has the truth out of Kettleback and it is likely that Margaery and certainly the other girls revealed what truly was going on (why she's not a virgin and what the moon tea was about). One Septa wants to say something about Margaery's brother btut is hushed up by another in the company of Cersei. It doesn't seem to me that HS is after Margaery, but after Cersei - making sure that she is so publically attainted that she cannot be Tommen's regent anymore. It seems to me that the HS is having a trial for Margarey to expose Cersei's plot against her and clear her name once and for all for the realm.  

I don't think the high sparrow wants either found guilty. And Mercy, Winds suggests that

Spoiler

Cersei already won. 

And that's good for the High Sparrow. If Cersei is guilty, Tommen cannot be king. If Tommen is not king, and if Joffrey should not have been king, Robert's rightful heir is Stannis, that demon worshiper. At some point, the high sparrow may favor Aegon, but unless the high sparrow is in cahoots with Varys, that time is not quite yet. 

[sweetsunray]

2 hours ago, cyberdirectorfreedom said:

The biggest reason I don't believe that Pycelle is exaggerating is that I don't see what purpose it serves; why lie when the truth is just as damning? Let's say that Margaery had only gone to Pycelle for moon tea the once; saying that to the court gets the same reaction. People will get the idea that Margaery is having sex, or has had sex, at least once, even though she (and her family) swore that she was still virgin. The exact same result is gained by telling the truth or telling a lie. So why bother lying?

Because she has Kettleback and Moon Boy confessing to orgies with multiple men all the time for a long time already for Margaery. Pycelle's words must corroborate that set-up of hers. It can't be just one time or one lover. It's multiple lovers, mulitple times, with mulitple witnesses. Cersei doesn't do something small - she has to make it big and surreal.

[sweetsunray]

2 hours ago, cyberdirectorfreedom said:

Pycelle loves his position, and part of keeping it (and your head) is to serve the King and Queen the best you can. He did not serve Margaery, with his confession. Confessing, as he did, could well have ruined him. Margaery would never trust him again (if she lives), Tommen probably wouldn't forgive him. Who would let him receive their messages? Who would make him privy to their secrets? Who would want his counsel? Very few, I'd say. Nobody would want him to know their sensitive information, because he's just proven he's willing to reveal it. He probably turned a "curdled white", and had trouble forcing himself to speak, not because it was a lie, but because he was throwing away his livelihood, part of his life that he cared for deeply. He'd spent almost his entire life being a fine maester, and I don't think it would be a stretch to say that it was his life.

The conversation with Cersei makes very clear why Pycelle confesses, and it had nothing to do with office, but Cersei's accusations of having poisoned Gyles and throwing him in the black cells for it. Pycelle already stayed there and came out partly broken. He wants to never go there again: that's why he betrays his vow of silence of confidence. And once half the court is arrested, Pycelle is completely at the mercy of Cersei's threats and mechanisations. You don't have to dig for opinions on Pycelle in aCoK. You can find it from the horse's mouth yourself in aFfC 1-2 chapters prior to it.

As for his body language - aside from turning the color of curdled milk, he turns away even before this. Turning away from something is the sign of not wanting to have anything to do with this. Then we have his reluctance to speak, and then the turning of color, to finally have him bumble reluctantly what Cersei wants and expects him to say. She's using his office to sell a lie.

[devilish]

Tywin and Kevan are gone, Cersei is mad and just love pressing the self destructive button, Tommen is weak and the smallfolk in KL just love the Tyrells. What is truly surprising is why Mace doesn't instruct Randyll to take Margaery out of the city only for his army to march there and make a clear up. Once KL is captured, Mace would have enough hostages to keep the Lannisters in place and enough power to force a divorce between Margaery and Tommen. He could even handle KL to Danny on a plate if she agrees to marry Willas. 

[Red Man Racey]

I've been thinking about this issue and something feels off about the whole thing. Let's go back to Pycelle's original confession to Cersei:

Quote

Pycelle collapsed to his knees. "I beg you . . . I was your lord father's man, and a friend to you in the matter of Lord Arryn. I could not survive the dungeons, not again . . ."

"Why does Margaery send for you?"

"She desires . . . she . . . she . . ."

"Say it!"

He cringed. "Moon tea," he whispered. "Moon tea, for . . ."

"I know what moon tea is for."

Now it's time for a thought experiment - assuming that Cersei's interpretation is correct, finish Pycelle's statement "Moon tea, for ..." What was he about to say before Cersei interrupted him? Remember, assume that Cersie's assumption is correct.

Don't reveal the hidden comment until after you've thought about it and tried to finish that statement.

Spoiler

What's bugging me is the word "for;" it's the wrong preposition. If he was truly about to explain the use of moon tea as an abortifacient it seems like he would say "to." I can't seem to come up with a satisfactory conclusion to that introduction if Cersei's assumption is correct. That's why I proposed this thought experiment, in order to get other user's input in case somebody else can come up with a potential conclusion to that statement. But to me it just sounds wrong and it's been bothering me.

 

[sweetsunray]

@Red Man Racey Well... that depends how exactly Pycelle wished to word it.

"Moon Tea, for [name of a person]"

"Moon Tea, for [regular menses]"

"Moon Tea, for [her fertility]"

"Moon Tea, for [an abortion]"

In other words "for" works if the next words are a subject, nouns, names. It does not work if the next word is a verb, implying an action. Now notice that abortion can still be a noun.

 

[Red Man Racey]

17 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

@Red Man Racey Well... that depends how exactly Pycelle wished to word it.

"Moon Tea, for [name of a person]"

"Moon Tea, for [regular menses]"

"Moon Tea, for [her fertility]"

"Moon Tea, for [an abortion]"

In other words "for" works if the next words are a subject, nouns, names. It does not work if the next word is a verb, implying an action. Now notice that abortion can still be a noun.

 

You're not wrong. All of that is exactly right. I guess the problem for me is that it doesn't really sound Pycelle-ish. Of course I could also be completely wrong and reading too much into the choice of words here. Maybe I'm finally succumbing to an acute case of "Winds of Winter deficiency" and seeing clues where there are none.

 

[sweetsunray]

16 minutes ago, Red Man Racey said:

You're not wrong. All of that is exactly right. I guess the problem for me is that it doesn't really sound Pycelle-ish. Of course I could also be completely wrong and reading too much into the choice of words here. Maybe I'm finally succumbing to an acute case of "Winds of Winter deficiency" and seeing clues where there are none.

 

I think you're right about Pycelle. I don't think Pycelle is the man to use such a noun. He's not a blunt talker.

[Magnar, P.I.]

4 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

@Red Man Racey Well... that depends how exactly Pycelle wished to word it.

"Moon Tea, for [name of a person]"

"Moon Tea, for [regular menses]"

"Moon Tea, for [her fertility]"

"Moon Tea, for [an abortion]"

In other words "for" works if the next words are a subject, nouns, names. It does not work if the next word is a verb, implying an action. Now notice that abortion can still be a noun.

 

Doesn't work with the next word being a verb? How about:

"Moon Tea, for drinking"

Which, since it's made with mint and honey and wormwood, sounds pretty good actually! Tasty and hallucinogenic!

[sweetsunray]

15 minutes ago, Magnar, P.I. said:

Doesn't work with the next word being a verb? How about:

"Moon Tea, for drinking"

Which, since it's made with mint and honey and wormwood, sounds pretty good actually! Tasty and hallucinogenic!

"Moon Tea to drink" sounds more natural.

[Maxxine]

3 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

I think you're right about Pycelle. I don't think Pycelle is the man to use such a noun. He's not a blunt talker.

Do any of the characters in the story actually use the word abortion ever?  

[sweetsunray]

Just now, Maxxine said:

Do any of the characters in the story actually use the word abortion? 

No they don't. So, you would have to insert a more roundabout construct, and then "for" works even less.

[cyberdirectorfreedom]

11 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

The conversation with Cersei makes very clear why Pycelle confesses, and it had nothing to do with office, but Cersei's accusations of having poisoned Gyles and throwing him in the black cells for it. Pycelle already stayed there and came out partly broken. He wants to never go there again: that's why he betrays his vow of silence of confidence. And once half the court is arrested, Pycelle is completely at the mercy of Cersei's threats and mechanisations. You don't have to dig for opinions on Pycelle in aCoK. You can find it from the horse's mouth yourself in aFfC 1-2 chapters prior to it.

As for his body language - aside from turning the color of curdled milk, he turns away even before this. Turning away from something is the sign of not wanting to have anything to do with this. Then we have his reluctance to speak, and then the turning of color, to finally have him bumble reluctantly what Cersei wants and expects him to say. She's using his office to sell a lie.

That's exactly what I'm saying. Pycelle was stuck in a terrible position; to choose between himself (not going to the black cells again) and choosing between his office. One one hand, he really doesn't want to go to the black cells. On the other hand, he doesn't want to break his oaths. He'd obviously be conflicted about which to choose; either way ruins him.

So yes, he obviously wants nothing to do with the confession. He wants to keep to his oath; but he wants slightly more to stay out of the black cells. All I'm saying is that this conflict explains his body language, even if his confession is the truth.

[sweetsunray]

8 minutes ago, cyberdirectorfreedom said:

That's exactly what I'm saying. Pycelle was stuck in a terrible position; to choose between himself (not going to the black cells again) and choosing between his office. One one hand, he really doesn't want to go to the black cells. On the other hand, he doesn't want to break his oaths. He'd obviously be conflicted about which to choose; either way ruins him.

So yes, he obviously wants nothing to do with the confession. He wants to keep to his oath; but he wants slightly more to stay out of the black cells. All I'm saying is that this conflict explains his body language, even if his confession is the truth.

In combination with the first confession it and the type of scandal Cersei creates, purely based on false testimony, Pycelle lied. And while anxiety could be expected about his office, Pycelle's physical discolorisation implies he feels ill or nauseous. People with values don't have such a physical response if they speak truthfully. Hence, he's lying.

[Lost Melnibonean]

47 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

In combination with the first confession it and the type of scandal Cersei creates, purely based on false testimony, Pycelle lied. And while anxiety could be expected about his office, Pycelle's physical discolorisation implies he feels ill or nauseous. People with values don't have such a physical response if they speak truthfully. Hence, he's lying.

If Pycelle were mixing moon tea for the young queen, and the powers that be assumed it was done to hide treasonous adultery, couldn't he be charge with conspiracy to commit treason? 

[Magnar, P.I.]

4 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

"Moon Tea to drink" sounds more natural.

 

4 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

No they don't. So, you would have to insert a more roundabout construct, and then "for" works even less.

Uh oh, grammar fight! Even without the word 'abortion', something like "Moon Tea for flushing out her unborn fetus" still works. I think it's a pretty minute point though...

20 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

If Pycelle were mixing moon tea for the young queen, and the powers that be assumed it was done to hide treasonous adultery, couldn't he be charge with conspiracy to commit treason? 

Ooh, now we're cooking! If so then Varys didn't murder Pycelle, he was lawfully executing him on behalf of the crown. Justice!