Jaime is becoming Tywin, Tyrion is not

[chrisdaw]

4 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

There's no "either/or" in this scenario. They are both becoming more like their father. It reminds me quite a bit of a quote I wish I knew earlier in life.

Yes there is an either or in the sense that Genna is talking about. That's why Tyrion and Tywin had this conversation why this quote is there, to show us that.

Quote

 

Far be it from me to question your cunning, Father, but in your place I do believe I'd have let Robert Baratheon bloody his own hands."

Lord Tywin stared at him as if he had lost his wits. "You deserve that motley, then.

 

You watch, when Tyrion hands over Jaime and/or his children to Dany they'll be alive, and when she sentences Jaime to death Tyrion won't be able to sit by. Tyrion won't bloody his hands, he'll half ass it.

Quote

Jamie worries that everyone thinks  of him as a kingslayer and oathbreaker. It was clear in the chapter where he asks Brienne to cut his chains on their way to KL. Everytime Brienne calls him 'kingslayer' he becomes conscious of his past actions.Tywin knows he is ruthless and  basks in the fear of others. He takes pride in his actions and doesn't give a second thought.

Correct, Jaime doesn't like doing the Tywin, unlike Tywin who didn't give a fuck, It's hard for him, that makes Jaime far more interesting than Tywin and why he's the POV instead of a Tywin.

Quote

Must you make me say the words? Pia was standing by the flap of the tent with her arms full of clothes. His squires were listening as well, and the singer. Let them hear, Jaime thought. Let the world hear. It makes no matter. He forced himself to smile. "You've seen our numbers...

Jaime has to force himself, hates himself for it, but he still does it. Every time.

Tyrion wouldn't, you watch, he won't, Tyrion will bitch it. More than anything, Tyrion wants to be loved. Tyrion wouldn't have bloodied his own hands killing the children just as Robert wouldn't have and was thankful Tywin did, because Tyrion has the same disease as Robert.

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When I laid those bodies before the throne, no man could doubt that we had forsaken House Targaryen forever. And Robert's relief was palpable. As stupid as he was, even he knew that Rhaegar's children had to die if his throne was ever to be secure. Yet he saw himself as a hero, and heroes do not kill children."

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Robert wanted smiles and cheers, always, so he went where he found them, to his friends and his whores. Robert wanted to be loved. My brother Tyrion has the same disease.

Tywin says Robert wouldn't have bloodied his hands because he fancied himself a hero. Tyrion himself says he wouldn't bloody his hands. Cersei says Tyrion has that same base desire as Robert, and she's right. It's not by accident we're given these character comparisons.

1 hour ago, katderoet3 said:

Jaime wants to be like Tywin after he and Gemma chat and tries to be more of a strategist but he isn't nearly as merciless as Tywin. As for Tyrion, he has the potential to be come steroids on crack but I think that he will choose to be a different person.

No he doesn't want to be, he needs to be. He didn't want to have to stick a sword in Aerys, he didn't want to give Edmure the speech or have to straighten out Tytos and Hoster, but he needed to. Cersei sends Jaime to the Riverlands because she wants to get rid of him from KL but also because she can't trust Daven to do the job, and in this she's right. Someone needed to take responsibility for setting shit back together, and it has to be Jaime because there's no-one else capable. Tywin would have, but Tywin died, the void must be filled. This one.

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He found himself wondering what his father would do to feed the realm, before he remembered that Tywin Lannister was dead.

 

[Ice Turtle]

Tywin was much more petty person than most people think. His treatment of his father's mistress, Tysha, Alayaya, Elia and probably even Sansa (her marriage) show almost obsession with humiliating women.  

He was average battle commander at best, he was determined, ruthless and bold especially compared to his own father but even as a politician I do not think that he was extraordinary. IMO there probably should be a discussion about how much of Red Wedding was his plan and what came from Walder and Roose (whose MO it fits much more).

About Tywin's sons. Tyrion is a lot like him, especially when it comes to  faults. Both took very badly if men laughed at them and had less than admirable relationship with women. Jaime is exact opposite in this. On the other hand I think that Tyrion is much more intelligent than Tywin. Probably the only matter in which Tywin stands high above his sons is that he had cultivated perfect "lord's face" not only as his demeanour (not only) in public but also as PR. Both Jaime and Tyrion show their emotions openly even in situations where they shouldn't.

[BalerionTheCat]

Jaime has much more honor than Tywin. Cersei is believing herself the like of Tywin. Doesn't mean she is like him.

Both twins have been raised by Tywin and have more or less (less for Jaime) admiration for him; and desire to emulate. But neither have much in common with Tywin. IMO, more in common with some Targaryens, the best and the worst.

[Scorpion92]

I believe if Jaime wanted to be involved in the game, he would be very capable, but I don't think he would be as ruthless as Tywin. 

Jaime wants to prove that everything will be fine even after Father is gone. He tries to emulate Tywin in Riverlands. But I would like to look at his state of mind after Brotherhood without Banners commits Red Wedding 2.0 in Riverrun.

In my opinion, Tyrion will have his mini-Tywin moment when he comes to Westerlands with Dany's Dothraki horde and sacks Lannisport like Tywin sacked King's Landing. He will also infiltrate Casterly Rock through sewer system and slaughter everyone opposing his and Dany's rule. It will be a full circle revenge from House Targaryen on House Lannister. The very seat of Tywin's power and legacy will be destroyed by his own son, which will make Tywin turn in his grave.

And I know people would argue that Tyrion will never do that, that he wants Casterly Rock for himself, etc. We will see about that and his state of mind when he is back in Westeros, that is all I have to say.

[LadyoftheNorth72]

IMO all three of them are simply themselves, prototypical children of a father who was never satisfied with anyone or anything. Each of them has their own distinct personality, strengths and weaknesses, and a tendency to fear and want to please Tywin, even while they resent him bitterly. This is a common outcome of a very overbearing parent.

Now that they are out from under his thumb permanently, I believe they are each developing and growing into their own personalities. Of course each is going to have some Tywin in them. He raised them and was also a public figure, so some people will have expectations or make assumptions. But this is the chance for each of them to find out who they really are, instead of trying to be who Tywin wanted them to be.

[delspark]

Genna saying Tyrion is more like Tywin, cannot be taken at face value. That line can be used to turn Jamie fearful as Tywin. This may foreshadow that Jamie will eventually get killed by his kin.

 

[thelittledragonthatcould]

6 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

Jaime has much more honor than Tywin.

Well no, that is blatantly not true. If you want, you can say he is as honourable as Tywin (as in to say not at all) but there is no way that a Kingsguard who killed one king, cuckolded another and broke guest rights at Winterfell  has much honour. Jaime has never had any honour, even at 15 he took the White cloak expressly so he could break his vows and be near (have) his sister.

[Jasta11]

39 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

Well no, that is blatantly not true. If you want, you can say he is as honourable as Tywin (as in to say not at all) but there is no way that a Kingsguard who killed one king, cuckolded another and broke guest rights at Winterfell  has much honour. Jaime has never had any honour, even at 15 he took the White cloak expressly so he could break his vows and be near (have) his sister.

 

He does (kinda sorta) try to rectify this after his capture, and the loss of his hand, but yeah, Jaime has never been a very honorable person. I'd add to that attacking Ned in KL on shaky grounds while severely outnumbering him, and then getting out of dodge before facing the consequences of his actions.

Jaime says it best in his dream. He tried to be Arthur Dayne, but ended up like the Smiling Knight instead.

[Lord Wraith]

On 3/19/2016 at 9:04 AM, Ice Turtle said:

Tywin was much more petty person than most people think. His treatment of his father's mistress, Tysha, Alayaya, Elia and probably even Sansa (her marriage) show almost obsession with humiliating women.  

He was average battle commander at best, he was determined, ruthless and bold especially compared to his own father but even as a politician I do not think that he was extraordinary. IMO there probably should be a discussion about how much of Red Wedding was his plan and what came from Walder and Roose (whose MO it fits much more).

About Tywin's sons. Tyrion is a lot like him, especially when it comes to  faults. Both took very badly if men laughed at them and had less than admirable relationship with women. Jaime is exact opposite in this. On the other hand I think that Tyrion is much more intelligent than Tywin. Probably the only matter in which Tywin stands high above his sons is that he had cultivated perfect "lord's face" not only as his demeanour (not only) in public but also as PR. Both Jaime and Tyrion show their emotions openly even in situations where they shouldn't.

https://warsandpoliticsoficeandfire.wordpress.com/2014/09/04/the-lions-fury-tywin-lannister-and-the-psychology-of-brutality/

He does tend to take things personally but considering his history it makes sense.

[BalerionTheCat]

2 hours ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

Well no, that is blatantly not true. If you want, you can say he is as honourable as Tywin (as in to say not at all) but there is no way that a Kingsguard who killed one king, cuckolded another and broke guest rights at Winterfell  has much honour. Jaime has never had any honour, even at 15 he took the White cloak expressly so he could break his vows and be near (have) his sister.

Well, he is not Ned. That's for sure. And maybe honor is not the right word. But what he did with Aerys was the right thing, in my book. IIRC, he wanted a duel between Ned and him. He had never been a coward. Not sure for Tywin. And many of the things he did was for Cersei love. Doing something for a woman's love is probably not Tywin style either.

ETA: And keeping it secret was some form of honor. He took the blame rather than disclosing the king last madness.

[chrisdaw]

56 minutes ago, Mooz said:

Jamie might be becoming like Tywin, but Tyrion already is like Tywin!

Also, much of the similarities you draw as natural since Jamie is in fact Tywin's son and is bound to be similar. the important part though is that for all intents and purposes, Tyrion is the more similar to Tywin, not Jamie. This seems to be the belief in-universe as well, as Genna Lannister tells Jamie:

 

No, not remotely, as gone over in detail in the OP.

[LordMiddleFinger]

 In my personal opinion, Jaime is Tywin's true son. No doubt about it.

Let's not forget that Jaime is now in a similar position/situation that Tywin once was... Before House Reyne and House Tarbeck rebelled against the Lannisters, people would openly mock House Lannister and Tywin's father, Lord Tytos Lannister.

  "Our own father was gentle and amiable, but so weak his bannerman mocked him in their cups. Some saw fit to defy him openly. Other lords borrowed our gold and never troubled to repay it. At court they japed of toothless lions."

 Kevan makes it pretty clear that there was a time when the Lannister name inspired no fear or respect. Whenever someone would humiliate Lord Tytos, they would humiliate his House and every member of that House. After what happened to Cersei I'd say that House Lannister is in a very similar situation now. It was Tywin who dealt with House Reyne and House Tarbeck. It was Tywin who made sure that people would stop mocking his family and it was Tywin who made sure that people would respect and fear his House even if they hate/ed him. Jaime is the one who has to play that role now... the cruel Lord who utterly destroys his enemies and shows no mercy for those who try to go against his family. Is he going to be as effective as Tywin was? Only time will tell. One thing is for sure... he either accepts this responsibility and forgets about his personal glory and honour so that his House might survive or he doesn't do what needs to be done and his House falls.

[Qhorin Halfhand and Yoren]

Both have aspects similiar to Tywin, but also some important differences. Jaime is trying to take more responsibility, and has Tywin as an example to follow, but he also elevates highly both the white cloth and characters that serrved it honorably such as Arthur Dayne. He also has a damaged relationship with Cersei and care for Brienne. Most importantly, Jaime is operating in a much more chaotic situation than Tywin had to operate in his youth. It might appear that Jaime has been kind of successful at riverlands, but I don't think he will be able to keep the peace. Instead it is Lady Stoneheart which will make a big play.

I also believe Jaime to be the valonqar who will kill Cersei, so there is also that.

Tyrion in comparison to Tywin is an interesting comparison. Tyrion doesn't want to be laughed at, and it is in a darker place than Jaime currently is, and definetly cares a lot about legacy. He is also smart. But he can never be the main rallying figure/lord/ leader of army the way Tywin and Jaime could. In terms of P.R., and creating an aura of fear or respect he fails, and he was even more unpopular in King's Landing than Joffrey and Cersei.

Even if Tyrion who I consider to be smarter, more knowledgeable and more devious than Tywin, manages to somehow play events and join the right sides, to have control of Casterly Rock, I am not sure he could keep it.

 

Cersei also tries to emulate Tywin, and she does have her similarities and differences as well. Her constant plotting, and trying to destroy whoever she deems an enemy, for one. Like Tywin she can be exceptionally cruel and petty. Still, she over-focuses on cruelty over other methods,  and lacks wisdom or restraint.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Jaime is like going through his adolescence for the first time. He doesn't yet know what or who he wants to be nor has found himself. He knows, though, that being a Lannister helps.

I personally feel that what defines Tywin Lannister, that one thing that describes him right, is how he makes all kind of excuses in his head to justify his actions. And this is something both Cersei and Tyrion also do. Jaime doesn't, though. He has accepted he killed Aerys and doesn't try to paint it as something positive because he knows that, even though he NEEDED to do it, what he did wasn't right. Tywin, Cersei or Tyrion would never say "I did this bad thing because it was needed" but "that thing I needed to do was needed so it's not that bad!".