The Fattest Leech

Wood Dancers and Bran and Pinocchio???

45 posts in this topic

So, as usual, when I avoid doing any real world work I start poking around in ASOIAF world. Reality is such a silly place. I am trying to keep this main post updated with all relevant info for easy reading, but feel free to scroll through all of the posts. Thoughts? Ideas? Speculations? Do I just need more coffee :cheers:

I came across a term that I wondered about a long time ago but never asked about. We all know that the term "dance" is synonymous with "battle" or "fight".

Arya is the Water Dancer, which is a unique style of fighting. Bran is the Wood Dancer? What does that make Sansa? The Air, or Winds, Dancer with all of her bird/flight references? She has been learning a lot on how to control people with words. And Jon? An earth dancer? Ice dancer? Jon as Snow White being the "glass flower" and all.  What about Rickon?

Wood Dancer.

  1. Who are they?
  2. Do these "cadets" still exist?
  3. How is Bran connected to them?
  4. Is this how he will (possibly) escape the cave or will this come in to play after?
  5. How are they connected with future events? Will he be the warrior knight he always imagined?

We don't have too much to go on so I will list what I found.The wiki doesn't have anything on them, so this comes from the World book and the main 5:

  • A Dance with Dragons - The Wayward Bride

"To the walls," Asha Greyjoy told her men. She turned her own steps for the watchtower, with Tris Botley right behind her.
The wooden watchtower was the tallest thing this side of the mountains, rising twenty feet above the biggest sentinels and soldier pines in the surrounding woods. "There, Captain," said Cromm, when she made the platform. Asha saw only trees and shadows, the moonlit hills and the snowy peaks beyond. Then she realized that trees were creeping closer. "Oho," she laughed, "these mountain goats have cloaked themselves in pine boughs." The woods were on the move, creeping toward the castle like a slow green tide. She thought back to a tale she had heard as a child, about the children of the forest and their battles with the First Men, when the greenseers turned the trees to warriors.
  • This chapter of Asha's is amazing and worth a re-read if you have not done so in a while. Asha, while deep within Stark territory at Deepwood Motte, notices a few things. She sees trees = Bran, shadows = Arya, moonlit hills = Sansa, and snowy peaks = Jon at the wall. The chapter finishes with Asha and her men being taken by northmen.
  • Bran's horse that was trained to hold him as a cripple was named Dancer (RIP). I always wondered why, but again, never really asked.
  • This from Bran in Game:
    • As the First Men carved out holdfasts and farms, they cut down the faces and gave them to the fire. Horror-struck, the children went to war. The old songs say that the greenseers used dark magics to make the seas rise and sweep away the land, shattering the Arm, but it was too late to close the door. The wars went on until the earth ran red with blood of men and children both, but more children than men, for men were bigger and stronger, and wood and stone and obsidian make a poor match for bronze. Finally the wise of both races prevailed, and the chiefs and heroes of the First Men met the greenseers and wood dancers amidst the weirwood groves of a small island in the great lake called Gods Eye.
  • This one from Clash is kinda weird. Jon is definitely being linked to the Old Gods throughout the story.
    • "Jon went to cut more branches, snapping each one in two before tossing it into the flames. The tree had been dead a long time, but it seemed to live again in the fire, as fiery dancers woke within each stick of wood to whirl and spin in their glowing gowns of yellow, red, and orange."
  • Could this line here be referring to Bran being a wood dancer and his part in the battle? Is he FINALLY going to be the action knight he always dreamed to be as a young, youngster?
    • "their wood dancers—became their warriors as well,"
  • And this one from Storm, which is probably just clever wording, could this be a tie-in to Sansa in some way as well? That poor girl has got to get back with her pack, however, during this time dancing, she goes from person to person charming them with her words (are wind), but she is still learning...
    • "Thankfully, it was time to change again. Her legs had turned to wood, though, and Lord Rowan, Ser Tallad, and Elinor's squire all must have thought her a very clumsy dancer. And then she was back with Ser Garlan once more, and soon, blessedly, the dance was over. "
  • I came across this passage in the World book and wanted to add it here. Some of these beasts still exist in-world, but chances are they are sigils, meaning, it could be Bran that has a strong hand in calling together different houses to defend Westeros... or atleast the North.
    • "The hunters among the children—their wood dancers—became their warriors as well, but for all their secret arts of tree and leaf, they could only slow the First Men in their advance. The greenseers employed their arts, and tales say that they could call the beasts of marsh, forest, and air to fight on their behalf: direwolves and monstrous snowbears, cave lions and eagles, mammoths and serpents, and more. But the First Men proved too powerful, and the children are said to have been driven to a desperate act."

 

ADDING 6/6/16: I was at a Kaffeeklatch (coffee talk) with GRRM and only 8 other people on Monday, May 30, 2016 for about an hour and a half and I had a chance to ask GRRM about this theory. He first replied, "interesting", and talked with me about it, but he never said NO. Something I , and others, have noticed he doesn't do when he doesn't want to deny a theory. He prefers to change the subject. He then asked if I had read the books or seen the movie. He told me the Disney Pinocchio movie was his favorite because of how "dark, disturbing and scary it is." He said he never read the books, but then proceeded to give me details about the events in the books, specifically the fact that Pinocchio smashes the cricket because the cricket represents his conscience and Pinocchio doesn't want to listen to a conscience. See my comparison to Meera below. I do have this session on audio recording and therefore anything I put "" around means they are GRRM's direct words.

 

  1. Pinocchio- the name a variant of common "pinolo" (pine seed)
    • Created as a wooden puppet. Bran as we know him was created when he was pushed from the tower. We know "Dance" is a synonym for fight in this ASOIAF series.
      • Just a quick interjection: Bloodraven is a Norse- Odin figure. One of the early ways to spell and pronounce Odin is Woden/Woden. So, Bran is the Woden/wooden puppet of Odin-Bloodraven.
    • Dreamed of becoming a real boy. Bran dreams of becoming a knight... a real knight as he says.
    • A character who is prone to telling lies and fabricating stories for various reasons. Bran has been known to tell little lies like not climbing the tower anymore (right before he falls) and lies in the caves when he wargs Hodor and tries to fool the others while doing so. He has also been shown to be rebellious at various points in the story.
    • Collodi chastises Pinocchio for his lack of moral fiber and his persistent rejection of responsibility and desire for fun. Bran does this many times when he wargs Hodor, which is an abomination for warg's to do (take another human). But he likes to do it and does it enough that Hodor starts to recoil to a dark spot in his own mind.
    • He is a marionette that is manipulated with wires. Bran is manipulated by Bloodraven by way of "telepathic" wires.
    • After struggling and weeping over his deformed nose, the Blue Fairy (Meera) summons woodpeckers to peck it back to normal. Bran cries to Meera about his current state and she comforts him.
    • Often thought of as a hero and cautionary tale, Pinocchio descends into hell; he also experiences rebirth through metamorphosis, a common motif in fantasy literature. Bran... this is Bran's storyline in ASOIAF.
    • IN THE END The main imperatives demanded of Pinocchio are to work, be good, and study. For Bran it is to learn to be a greenseer.
    • Pinocchio's willingness to provide for his "father" (to open his third eye) and devote himself to these things transforms him into a real boy with modern comforts. He becomes the knight he always wanted to be. a WOOD DANCER.
      • This is also a connection to the Norse mythology that GRRM uses heavily throughout ASOIAF. Bran is the squirrel known as Ratatosk. Eddard identifies Bran as a climbing squirrel back in AGOT.
  2. Geppetto- Is thought of as Pinocchio's second/surrogate father... and is Bloodraven. I will say here that this part sorta kinda helps me in my theory that Bloodraven is NOT a good guy. I won't detail why here just to keep to this topic. Basically, Bloodraven is working Bran like a puppet.
    • Geppetto is introduced when carpenter Mister Antonio finds a talking block of pinewood which he was about to carve into a leg for his table.
    • Antonio gives the block of wood to Geppetto signifying the transference of greenseer knowledge from the preceeding greenseer to Bloodraven.
    • Towns people say that Geppetto dislikes children, the carabiniere assumes that Pinocchio has been treated poorly and imprisons Geppetto. Bloodraven, in life, was thought by everyone to be a "sinister sorcerer" and was sent to the wall by King Aegon.
    • Geppetto is released from jail and finds that Pinocchio's feet have burnt off, and replaces them. Bloodraven in the books did this part on purpose.
    • Geppetto is a major villain in the Fables comic series. I have read these graphic novels and they are amazing.
    • "Geppetto" is a diminutive form of Giuseppe (Joseph). Bloodraven is the diminutive nickname for Brynden Rivers.
      • Mangiafuoco ADDING 7/3/16 in English; literally "Fire-Eater" – Mangiafuoco could also be Bloodraven. Actually, probably more likely to be Bloodraven. Mangiafuoco is the wealthy director of the Great Marionette Theater. He has red eyes and a black beard which reaches to the floor, and his mouth is "as wide as an oven [with] teeth like yellow fangs". Despite his appearances however, Mangiafuoco (which the story says is his given name) is not evil.
  3. Fairy with Turquoise Hair- is Meera. Maybe a little of Jojen as well.Both are described as basically elfish in the books as well.
    • She repeatedly appears at critical moments in Pinocchio's wanderings to admonish the little wooden puppet to avoid bad or risky behavior.
    • Although the naïvely willful marionette initially resists her good advice, he later comes to follow her instruction.
    • She in turn protects him, and later enables his assumption of human form, contrary to the prior wooden form.
    • The Fairy cryptically responds that all inhabitants of the house, including herself, are dead, and that she (Jojen) is waiting for her coffin to arrive. JOJEN alert!
    • The Fairy (Meera) informs him that he is free to consider her an elder sister,
    • The Fairy (Jojen) also  says that his "father" Mister Geppetto (Howland Reed) is on his way to fetch him. Another Jojen alert!
  4. Candlewick- Is, I think, more the Jojen. Adding this 7/03/16. Candlewick is introduced in chapter XXX. His real name is Romeo, though he is given his nickname on account of his slender, polished build. He is described as the most unruly of Pinocchio’s class, though he is the puppet’s best friend. Pinocchio and Candlewick meet again in chapter XXXVI, where it is revealed that Candlewick is dying from exhaustion (Sounds familiar= Jojen).
  5. The Coachman- Coldhands. The coachman’s name is never revealed. He drives to Busy Bee Island (the cave in ASOIAF) on a coach pulled by twenty four donkeys (The great elk in ASOIAF) which mysteriously wear white shoes on their hooves (Coldhands mysteriously wears the face coverings). By the time he arrives to take Pinocchio and Candlewick to the Land of Toys (again, the cave), his carriage is completely packed, leaving Candlewick to sit in front with him and Pinocchio to ride one of the donkeys. The donkey throws Pinocchio off, and is reproached by the coachman, who bites half its right ear off (We have references to cannibalism in the trek north with Coldhands). When Pinocchio remounts the donkey, the animal begins to weep like a human (Hodor), and warns Pinocchio of the impending danger he faces. The coachman again reproaches the animal by biting off half its other ear. The coachman proceeds to kidnap the innocent children to the Land of Toys, whilst singing to himself: “All night they sleep, And I never sleep…”. Meera describes Coldhands as, " Who is he? What is he? Anyone can put on a black cloak. Anyone, or any thing. He does not eat, he never drinks, he does not seem to feel the cold."
  6. The fox and the cat- Theon is the cat and Reek/Ramsay is the fox
    • Both are depicted as con-men, who lead Pinocchio astray and unsuccessfully attempt to murder him.
    • The pair pretend to sport disabilities; the Fox lameness (Reek/Ramsay) and the Cat blindness. (Theon)
    • The Fox is depicted as the more intelligent of the two, with the Cat (Theon) usually limiting itself to repeating the Fox's words.
    • The pair catches and hangs Pinocchio from a tree. Theon and Reek hang the miller's boys from Winterfell.

Basically, Bran will become fearful of Bloodraven, who is wonderfully shady to begin with, and Bran will find a way to leave the tree and be the knight he always wanted to be.

  1. The Land of Toys, or,- This part of the Pinocchio story is absolutely integral to the morality theme of the entire piece.
    • As TyrionTLannister points out in a Page 2 post to read more. Basically, it's a location in "The Adventures of Pinocchio" that serves as a haven for wayward boys and girls, allowing them them to act as they please without recrimination. However, its truer and more sinister purpose is eventually revealed as it begins to physically transform the boys and girls into donkeys, apparently by means of a curse.
    •  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_of_Toys
    • The description of the Land of Toys mentions this part, "To its unsuspecting visitors, it appears to be a fantastic place where boys and girls can do whatever they want with no consequences or law. However, its real use is for a slave trade.", and to me, that is why I stubbornly think Bloodraven could be up to no good. My Page 2 post talks about it more.
    • adding 2/26/17: Check out the part of the thread where Bran is already turning into a tree while in his "land of toys". Page three in this thread. More to come on this as well.

 

Arya connections:

  • I believe that, in keeping with the fairytales theme, George used the original story of The Little Mermaid for Arya's main, over-reaching story. Almost every element of TLM is in Arya's story, and you can see how her arc could progress on page going forward. I will do a comparison one day (fingers crossed for time) http://hca.gilead.org.il/li_merma.html
  • GloubieBoulga found a great text link to the donkey/mule Land of Toys connection. Page 2 post to read.

BONUS- Patchface:

The term Humpty Dumpty is actually a phrase used to describe a drunk person. Humpty Dumpty was not ever an egg until later versions where the riddle was turned into a child's nursery rhyme. It was a riddle first about a drunk man who falls down and the idea that you can never help a lackwit such as that.... and isn't this how most people treat Patchface?!?!?!! In Through the Looking Glass, HD provides riddles and speaks "backwards" by celebrating his un-birthday.

  • Chapter Six – Humpty Dumpty: After crossing yet another brook into the sixth rank, Alice immediately encounters Humpty Dumpty, who, besides celebrating his unbirthday, provides his own translation of the strange terms in "Jabberwocky". In the process, he introduces Alice (and the reader) to the concept of portmanteau words, before his inevitable fall.

Two of the earlier HD riddles are:

  1. Humpty Dumpty sat on a wall,

    Humpty Dumpty had a great fall.
    Four-score Men and Four-score more,

    Could not make Humpty Dumpty where he was before.
  2. Humpty Dumpty lay in a beck.
    With all his sinews around his neck;
    Forty Doctors and forty wrights
    Couldn't put Humpty Dumpty to rights!
    • A beck is a small creek or waterside. Hmmm, where was Patcface found, and wasn't he drunk/drowned in sea water???

*not sure who to credit for some of the HD connections, because when I tried before in another thread, I was told that that poster did not write it??? So, partial credit to another random poster :)

Edited by The Fattest Leech
Adding more info. Thank you to those who helped!

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On 3/19/2016 at 1:57 PM, The Fattest Leech said:

So, as usual, when I avoid doing any real world work I start poking around in ASOIAF world. Reality is such a silly place.

I came across a term that I wondered about a long time ago but never asked about. We all know that the term "dance" is synonymous with "battle" or "fight".

Wood Dancer.

  1. Who are they?
  2. Do these "cadets" still exist?
  3. How is Bran connected to them?
  4. Is this how he will (possibly) escape the cave or will this come in to play after?
  5. How are they connected with future events? Will he be the warrior knight he always imagined?

We don't have too much to go on so I will list what I found.The wiki doesn't have anything on them, so this comes from the World book and the main 5:

  • Bran's horse that was trained to hold him as a cripple was named Dancer (RIP). I always wondered why, but again, never really asked.
  • This from Bran in Game: As the First Men carved out holdfasts and farms, they cut down the faces and gave them to the fire. Horror-struck, the children went to war. The old songs say that the greenseers used dark magics to make the seas rise and sweep away the land, shattering the Arm, but it was too late to close the door. The wars went on until the earth ran red with blood of men and children both, but more children than men, for men were bigger and stronger, and wood and stone and obsidian make a poor match for bronze. Finally the wise of both races prevailed, and the chiefs and heroes of the First Men met the greenseers and wood dancers amidst the weirwood groves of a small island in the great lake called Gods Eye.
  • This one from Clash is kinda weird. Jon is definitely being linked to the Old Gods throughout the story. "Jon went to cut more branches, snapping each one in two before tossing it into the flames. The tree had been dead a long time, but it seemed to live again in the fire, as fiery dancers woke within each stick of wood to whirl and spin in their glowing gowns of yellow, red, and orange."
  • This one, I think, gives the most clues. Could the underlined part be a parallel to recent days "call to war" against the Others, or the Boltons in Winterhell, or the Lannisters, etc?: "The hunters among the children [cadets]—their wood dancers—became their warriors as well, but for all their secret arts of tree and leaf, they could only slow the First Men in their advance. The greenseers employed their arts, and tales say that they could call the beasts of marsh, forest, and air to fight on their behalf: direwolves and monstrous snowbears, cave lions and eagles, mammoths and serpents, and more. But the First Men proved too powerful, and the children are said to have been driven to a desperate act."
  • Could this line here be referring to Bran being a wood dancer and his part in the battle? Is he FINALLY going to be the action knight he always dreamed to be as a young, youngster? "their wood dancers—became their warriors as well,"
  • And this one from Storm, which is probably just clever wording, could this be a tie-in to Sansa in some way as well? That poor girl has got to get back with her pack, somehow... "Thankfully, it was time to change again. Her legs had turned to wood, though, and Lord Rowan, Ser Tallad, and Elinor's squire all must have thought her a very clumsy dancer. And then she was back with Ser Garlan once more, and soon, blessedly, the dance was over. "

Thoughts? Ideas? Speculations? Do I just need more coffee :cheers:

Hello!  I like your thread, although I do not know what I can contribute other than speculation as to the wood dancers and their relationship to Bran’s specially-trained pony Dancer.

For some reason, the wood dancers bring to mind Syrio Forel and his method of teaching Arya to be a water dancer.  Using a stick instead of a blade, Arya practices many exercises that prepare her for a one-on-one confrontation with another opponent in a sport that is similar to fencing.

Syrio takes on several gold cloaks with nothing but a stick as his weapon against men armed with steel blades, all in order to allow Arya to escape capture and eventually flee King’s Landing.

Arya hopes to pursue water dancing as Syrio had done, but her story arc has moved her away from practicing with Needle.  I am not sure what a “water dancer” does in relationship to “water” other than maybe the dancer is so light on his/her feet that he/she appears to move across a watery surface without sinking beneath its surface.

Now, the wood dancers may use wooden weapons to fight, or since they are the warriors for the children, perhaps they fight with obsidian blades and conceal themselves in the trees before ambushing their foes.

Bran is a name that appears in the word “BRANch”, and in the name STARk we have “star”.

Maybe Bran will be able to manipulate the branches of weirwood trees as if they are arms, and even employ the red leaves as if they were hands with fingers.

Wouldn’t that be fun?  Bran can clobber Ramsay when he walks through the godswood, although I doubt Ramsay enters such a sacred place. 

After Ramsay is tortured and disemboweled while still alive, I want the heart tree to eat him.  Some people deserve to be cannibalized, and he is a good candidate.  After all, Ramsay set the stables on fire; hence, he is responsible for Dancer’s death.  I am sure Bran remembers!

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Just now, evita mgfs said:

~snipped~

Maybe Bran will be able to manipulate the branches of weirwood trees as if they are arms, and even employ the red leaves as if they were hands with fingers.

 

Wouldn’t that be fun?  Bran can clobber Ramsay when he walks through the godswood, although I doubt Ramsay enters such a sacred place. 

 

After Ramsay is tortured and disemboweled while still alive, I want the heart tree to eat him.  Some people deserve to be cannibalized, and he is a good candidate.  After all, Ramsay set the stables on fire; hence, he is responsible for Dancer’s death.  I am sure Bran remembers!

 

I just posted a new, detailed idea in the Bran's Growing Powers thread. It links to this idea as well.

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My thought has been that Wood Dancers were CotF who could run through the trees like squirrels and used this mobility as an advantage in combat- that it was a "natural" skill that appears uncanny (like Howland Reed's "ability to make castles appear and reappear") and is in contrast to the abilities of the greenseers in the same sense that Meera's abilities as a hunter are contrasted with Jojen's greendreams.

Dancers and dreamers. Hmmmmm.

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1 hour ago, hiemal said:

My thought has been that Wood Dancers were CotF who could run through the trees like squirrels and used this mobility as an advantage in combat- that it was a "natural" skill that appears uncanny (like Howland Reed's "ability to make castles appear and reappear") and is in contrast to the abilities of the greenseers in the same sense that Meera's abilities as a hunter are contrasted with Jojen's greendreams.

Dancers and dreamers. Hmmmmm.

What I found and posted on the other thread, and will post here, seems to draw a connection to this Dancers post and Bran with wood.

Thank you for your reply.

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Written, copied and pasted from the other thread but it has its roots with this OP theory so I wanted to add it here.

Ok, what I am about to say is going to sound super weird, so just bare with me. A day or two ago Evita and I had a brief convo back on page 15 and she said this, "One of the things I mentioned in my post was that "Bran" is actually in "Branches". Sounds cool. The I replied something about Bran being a Wood Dancer which is something I wrote about a few weeks ago. Read here if you want to because it fits in here.

Then as I was driving today and listening to a Tyrion chapter in the car, I started thinking of Evita's and my silly comments and realized that Bran could be Pinocchio. I rushed home and looked up the story of Pinocchio and the similarities are amazing. (The real story, not the Disney story). Let me break down a few of the long list of resemblances. There is a LOT more, but I only had a few minutes.

Please let me know your thoughts and if it fits into this thread.

  1. Pinocchio- the name a variant of common "pinolo" (pine seed)
    • Created as a wooden puppet. Bran as we know him was created when he was pushed from the tower. We know "Dance" is a synonym for fight in this ASOIAF series.
    • Dreamed of becoming a real boy. Bran dreams of becoming a knight... a real knight as he says.
    • A character who is prone to telling lies and fabricating stories for various reasons. Bran has been known to tell little lies like not climbing the tower anymore (right before he falls) and lies in the caves when he wargs Hodor and tries to fool the others while doing so. He has also been shown to be rebellious at various points in the story.
    • Collodi chastises Pinocchio for his lack of moral fiber and his persistent rejection of responsibility and desire for fun. Bran does this many times when he wargs Hodor, which is an abomination for warg's to do (take another human). But he likes to do it and does it enough that Hodor starts to recoil to a dark spot in his own mind.
    • He is a marionette that is manipulated with wires. Bran is manipulated by Bloodraven by way of "telepathic" wires.
    • After struggling and weeping over his deformed nose, the Blue Fairy (Meera) summons woodpeckers to peck it back to normal. Bran cries to Meera about his current state and she comforts him.
    • Often thought of as a hero and cautionary tale, Pinocchio descends into hell; he also experiences rebirth through metamorphosis, a common motif in fantasy literature. Bran... this is Bran's storyline in ASOIAF.
    • IN THE END The main imperatives demanded of Pinocchio are to work, be good, and study. For Bran it is to learn to be a greenseer.
    • Pinocchio's willingness to provide for his "father" (to open his third eye) and devote himself to these things transforms him into a real boy with modern comforts. He becomes the knight he always wanted to be. a WOOD DANCER.
  2. Geppetto- Is thought of as Pinocchio's second/surrogate father... and is Bloodraven. I will say here that this part sorta kinda helps me in my theory that Bloodraven is NOT a good guy. I won't detail why here just to keep to this topic. Basically, Bloodraven is working Bran like a puppet.
    • Geppetto is introduced when carpenter Mister Antonio finds a talking block of pinewood which he was about to carve into a leg for his table.
    • Antonio gives the block of wood to Geppetto signifying the transference of greenseer knowledge from the preceeding greenseer to Bloodraven.
    • Towns people say that Geppetto dislikes children, the carabiniere assumes that Pinocchio has been treated poorly and imprisons Geppetto. Bloodraven, in life, was thought by everyone to be a "sinister sorcerer" and was sent to the wall by King Aegon.
    • Geppetto is released from jail and finds that Pinocchio's feet have burnt off, and replaces them. Bloodraven in the books did this part on purpose.
    • Geppetto is a major villain in the Fables comic series. I have read these graphic novels and they are amazing.
    • "Geppetto" is a diminutive form of Giuseppe (Joseph). Bloodraven is the diminutive nickname for Brynden Rivers.
  3. Fairy with Turquoise Hair- is Meera. Maybe a little of Jojen as well.Both are described as basically elfish in the books as well.
    • She repeatedly appears at critical moments in Pinocchio's wanderings to admonish the little wooden puppet to avoid bad or risky behavior.
    • Although the naïvely willful marionette initially resists her good advice, he later comes to follow her instruction.
    • She in turn protects him, and later enables his assumption of human form, contrary to the prior wooden form.
    • The Fairy cryptically responds that all inhabitants of the house, including herself, are dead, and that she (Jojen) is waiting for her coffin to arrive. JOJEN alert!
    • The Fairy (Meera) informs him that he is free to consider her an elder sister,
    • The Fairy (Jojen) also  says that his "father" Mister Geppetto (Howland Reed) is on his way to fetch him. Another Jojen alert!
  4. The fox and the cat- Theon is the cat and Reek/Ramsay is the fox
    • Both are depicted as con-men, who lead Pinocchio astray and unsuccessfully attempt to murder him.
    • The pair pretend to sport disabilities; the Fox lameness (Reek/Ramsay) and the Cat blindness. (Theon)
    • The Fox is depicted as the more intelligent of the two, with the Cat (Theon) usually limiting itself to repeating the Fox's words.
    • The pair catches and hangs Pinocchio from a tree. Theon and Reek hang the miller's boys from Winterfell.

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I came across this passage in the World book and wanted to add it here. Some of these beasts still exist in-world, but chances are they are sigils, meaning, It could be Bran that has a strong hand in calling together different houses to defend Westeros... or atleast the North.

Here is a lost of who the wood dancers call:

Beasts of march-

Beasts of forest-

Beasts of air- the falcons of Arryn

Direwolves- Starks (Arya, Rickon, Sansa, Jon (?))

Snowbears-

Cave Lion-

Eagles-

Mammoth-

Serpents-

"The hunters among the children—their wood dancers—became their warriors as well, but for all their secret arts of tree and leaf, they could only slow the First Men in their advance. The greenseers employed their arts, and tales say that they could call the beasts of marsh, forest, and air to fight on their behalf: direwolves and monstrous snowbears, cave lions and eagles, mammoths and serpents, and more. But the First Men proved too powerful, and the children are said to have been driven to a desperate act."

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ADDING 6/6/16: I was at a Kaffeeklatch (coffee talk) with GRRM and only 8 other people on Monday, May 30, 2016 for about an hour and a half and I had a chance to ask GRRM about this theory. He first replied, "interesting", then asked if I ha read the books or seen the movie. He told me the Disney Pinocchio movie was his favorite because of how "dark, disturbing and scary it is." He said he never read the books, but then proceeded to give me details about the events in the books, specifically the fact that Pinocchio smashes the cricket because the cricket represents his conscience and Pinocchio doesn't want to listen to a conscience. See my comparison to Meera above. I do have this session on audio recording and therefore anything I put "" around means they are GRRM's direct words.

Thanks for following along so far :D

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On 5/19/2016 at 8:45 PM, The Fattest Leech said:

I came across this passage in the World book and wanted to add it here. Some of these beasts still exist in-world, but chances are they are sigils, meaning, It could be Bran that has a strong hand in calling together different houses to defend Westeros... or atleast the North.

Here is a lost of who the wood dancers call:

Beasts of march-

Beasts of forest-

Beasts of air- the falcons of Arryn

Direwolves- Starks (Arya, Rickon, Sansa, Jon (?))

Snowbears-

Cave Lion-

Eagles-

Mammoth-

Serpents-

"The hunters among the children—their wood dancers—became their warriors as well, but for all their secret arts of tree and leaf, they could only slow the First Men in their advance. The greenseers employed their arts, and tales say that they could call the beasts of marsh, forest, and air to fight on their behalf: direwolves and monstrous snowbears, cave lions and eagles, mammoths and serpents, and more. But the First Men proved too powerful, and the children are said to have been driven to a desperate act."

To me it doesn't look like it's saying the wood dancers could call any of those. It was the greenseers who did the calling of animals, which would make sense given that they're skinchangers.

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1 minute ago, TheSovereignGrave said:

To me it doesn't look like it's saying the wood dancers could call any of those. It was the greenseers who did the calling of animals, which would make sense given that they're skinchangers.

Hey, thanks for taking a look :thumbsup:

The wood dancers are CotF, they are just the hunters who became the warriors. What I was thinking is that Bran will actually make it out of the cave as the warrior/knight he always wanted to be and it will be him that calls the banners in the north. We know Bran's powers are more advanced than they "should" be, so maybe he has the potential for both the ongoing greenseer/skinchanger and being a warrior. Maybe Bran is the link to bring the magic back in to the world?

I am still thinking on this one between other writings and am open to any ideas.

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On 19-5-2016 at 2:45 AM, The Fattest Leech said:

I came across this passage in the World book and wanted to add it here. Some of these beasts still exist in-world, but chances are they are sigils, meaning, It could be Bran that has a strong hand in calling together different houses to defend Westeros... or atleast the North.

Here is a lost of who the wood dancers call:

Beasts of march-

Beasts of forest-

Beasts of air- the falcons of Arryn

Direwolves- Starks (Arya, Rickon, Sansa, Jon (?))

Snowbears-

Cave Lion-

Eagles-

Mammoth-

Serpents-

"The hunters among the children—their wood dancers—became their warriors as well, but for all their secret arts of tree and leaf, they could only slow the First Men in their advance. The greenseers employed their arts, and tales say that they could call the beasts of marsh, forest, and air to fight on their behalf: direwolves and monstrous snowbears, cave lions and eagles, mammoths and serpents, and more. But the First Men proved too powerful, and the children are said to have been driven to a desperate act."

Direwolves and monstrous snowbears, cave lions and eagles, mammoths and serpents are probably examples of those beasts of march, forest and air. 

Anyway maybe lizard lions can also be an example of the beasts of marsh? 

I must say I really have headcannons of Bran attacking his enemies with a bunch of animals under his command :D 

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8 hours ago, Tijgy said:

Direwolves and monstrous snowbears, cave lions and eagles, mammoths and serpents are probably examples of those beasts of march, forest and air. 

Anyway maybe lizard lions can also be an example of the beasts of marsh? 

I must say I really have headcannons of Bran attacking his enemies with a bunch of animals under his command :D 

Haha. That would be pretty awesome. 

Lizard-lions could work. It's about time we see them on page, just like its about time we see Howland on page ;)

Honestly, to me this adds to the idea that Bran could leave the cave and his Stark name will call all the other houses together to help save the north, or the people in other regions or even Winterfell. 

Come on Winds! 

Edited by The Fattest Leech

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1 hour ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Haha. That would be pretty awesome. 

Lizard-lions could work. It's about time we see them on page, just like its about time we see Howland on page ;)

Honestly, to me this adds to the idea that Bran could leave the cave and his Stark name will call all the other houses together to help save the north, or the people in other regions or even Winterfell. 

Come on Winds! 

I really want Howland suddenly turn up on a back of a lizard lion as the leader of a hidden army of Northmen against the Boltons :D 

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Very interesting ! 

The Pinocchio's story make me think to this : 

Quote

It all goes back and back, Tyrion thought, to our mothers and fathers and theirs before them. We are puppets dancing on the strings of those who came before us, and one day our own children will take up our strings and dance on in our steads.(Tyrion X, ASOS)

I think you have the node in few words here : after all, despite the fact he has no strings, Pinocchio (in the movie) is manipulated successively by different "paternals figures" and don't want to listen his proper "conscience". The evil Stromboli is a kind of giant greedy oger who put Pinocchio in a cage like a bird (=Braavos' Titan who eat little girls as Old Nan says, LF, Sansa; non exhaustive example !). Pinocchio gain his freedom when he decides alone to look for his father, and when he delivers him from Monstro (at this moment, he has the ideas and he "commands"). The cost is his life like puppet. At the end, the fairy resurrect him as a real boy. 

So, with Tyrion killing his father, Daenerys making slaves free, Jaime becoming distant from his sister, it is always a story of beeing free, really free. 

 

Same image with Victarion manipulated by Euron : 

Quote

I have seen you in the nightfires, Victarion Greyjoy. You come striding through the flames stern and fierce, your great axe dripping blood, blind to the tentacles that grasp you at wrist and neck and ankle, the black strings that make you dance.( The Iron suitor, ADWD) 

 

 

Edit after an hour and little reflexions ^^

Indeed @The Fattest Leech, I think you found a very central theme in ASOIAF,and I go on with the ideas you gave me : 

- Also bones are wood, like "Nagga's bones" on the Iron Isle.

The animated dead are animated bones : they stop dancing when they burn (like wood) and when bones get crushed (I just can't find the quote where a direwolf eat some dead thing which stop moving when crushed)

- About Ned's bones : in a french forum, we have evoked the possibility of Ned's bones brievly reanimated by Howland Reed, during a battle, like Garlan Tyrell took Renly's armor and played "resurrect Renly" during the Blackwater battle (remember that Renly's corpse had "disappear" after his death), or like the dead king Cleon at Astapor; but this time, Ned's bones would be really animated

 

Perhaps there is something too with the fire visions : if wood/bones can be animated, the burning seems to free the spirit, a kind of shadow, like Drogo's shadow who escape and ride a horse in his pyre, or like the watcher Bannen at Craster's house : 

Quote

Sam was red-eyed and sick from the smoke. When he looked at the fire, he thought he saw Bannen sitting up, his hands coiling into fists as if to fight off the flames that were consuming him, but it was only for an instant, before the swirling smoke hid all. (Sam II, ASOS)

Fire is master dancer, and what Mel and others see in the fire are shadows/memories who are released when the wood is burning

Just for fun : at the end of the Snow White's tale, the bad queen is condemned to dance with white-hot iron shoes. 

Perhaps, the last Daenerys' vision in HotU is telling about something like that, according the fact that weirwood are regularly compared to stone (and they become stone when they die, like the weirwood of Raventree or Nagga's bones) : 

Quote

From a smoking tower, a great stone beast took wing, breathing shadow fire

Interesting that in that vision, we can find three Stark elements : the beast (for wolves... and perhaps bears and rams/goats), the wings (for birds, and above all crows), and trees/stone (Winterfell, the Wall). 

Is there a master dancer/liar at Winterfell ? 

I have no more time, but to finish here, I think there is also a hard connection between the dance and the liars : Varys, Illyrio, Manderly, LF, aso...

Dance isn't only a fighting affair ^^

Edited by GloubieBoulga

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@GloubieBoulga I was just given the info about an Italian fairy tales book that George translated back in the early 90's (if I remember correctly). I thought that was such a cool coincidence that I went ahead and found the book on Amazon and ordered it. 

I'll give updates to that in the weeks ahead. 

Edited by The Fattest Leech

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On 14/12/2016 at 7:50 AM, The Fattest Leech said:

@GloubieBoulga I was just given the info about an Italian fairy tales book that George translated back in the early 90's (if I remember correctly). I thought that was such a cool coincidence that I went ahead and found the book on Amazon and ordered it. 

I'll give updates to that in the weeks ahead. 

I'm waiting for that with curiosity and interest ! 

The more I think to Pinocchio, the more I find the theme very pertinent (here, I refer only to the movie, because I'm familiar with - my eldest little daughter is actually a Pinocchio's fan ^^; it's to long time I have read the book, and Disney can sometimes accomplish many significant transformations, so I can't refer to the book).

But I think also it's like GRRM uses the tale of Snow White : he never make a simple copy or transposition of events and characters. For example, in Snow White's tale, the father die at the very beginning (in the disney movie, he doesn't exist), but this absence has a particular signification : it shows that feminine power (not tempered by masulin power) is bad, immoderate, deadly dangerous and just tyrannic (in the movie, the bad queen stay as an ugly sorceress - her "true" face - after she killed Snow White), so the elimination of the bad queen must be the fact of a protective/good masculine character. GRRM keeps the structure of the tale, but give a totally different signification : behind the bad queen, there is a hidden paternal figure, a real predator, the most dangerous and lethal. And Sansa isn't the Cersei's puppet, but her father's, Robert's, Joffrey's, and above all Littlefinger. It is a story of emancipation, and what is interessant is that this thematic is finally the same as Pinocchio's theme. 

I have thought a bit about Bran : 

- Jon II AGOT : Jon say goodbye to Bran, he is in the chamber and he sees a boy wha has lost his flesh and appears as a wooden stick (the bones) : 

Quote

She [=Catelyn] was holding one of his hands. It looked like a claw. This was not the Bran he remembered. The flesh had all gone from him. His skin stretched tight over bones like sticks. Under the blanket, his legs bent in ways that made Jon sick. His eyes were sunken deep into black pits; open, but they saw nothing. The fall had shrunken him somehow. He looked half a leaf, as if the first strong wind would carry him off to his grave.

 Here, Bran isn't only a wooden stick, he's also a very young, fragile and thin tree, and a little bird (In the Disney movie, Pinocchio is imprisoned by Stromboli in a cage like a bird). But if we go further in the symbolism, we must remember the Bran boy of the beginning = a Bran boy made of clay as other ordinary humans : 

Quote

Later, Maester Luwin built a little pottery boy and dressed him in Bran's clothes and flung him off the wall into the yard below, to demonstrate what would happen to Bran if he fell. That had been fun, but afterward Bran just looked at the maester and said, "I'm not made of clay. And anyhow, I never fall."

In fact, this clay-boy dies, really physically dies. The new Bran begins his new life as a wooden puppet. 

Geppetto for Giuseppe, italian Josef. Josef is also carpenter, and Jesus' "father", the one who is a god and a human in the same time, and must save humanity by giving his human life, resurrecting as a part of god. At the end of the Pinocchio movie, Pinocchio give his puppet-life to save his father, and he is resurrected as a free clay-boy. I think it's interessant that the saga begins with the clay-Bran who physically dies. 

Another interessant scene in the Pinocchio movie : the "lie-scene". When the blue-fairy come to deliver him, Pinocchio lies, and his nose grows, but not only a grow : it is turning into a strong branch, with leaves, and a nest, and little birds (there's is perhaps a clue here about Tyrion's nose and why it is cut = without a nose, Tyrion's lie can't no more be detected ? (I have absolutely no answer yet, it's just a proposition). It is said in the saga, that lying in front of a weirwood is impossible, but the weirwood, the crows and the ravens could lie (and Old Nan says that all crows are liars, in Bran IV or V, AGOT), as the wooden puppet does. 

 

- Another reflexion : I think there is also something to look with the hanged men, who are litteraly dancing puppets with their strings. Hanging take place in Riverlands, the land of Harrenhal, and I ever more tempted to consider Rivelands/Harrenhal/Trident as a mirror for Winterfell/the Wall/beyond the wall (not in the same order). 

 

At least, your Pinocchio's idea convinced me as the Sweetsunray's "bear and fair maiden" did it last summer. I don't see necessarily exactly the same things, and I don't agree with all the details, which can be discussed and debated, but I'm totally enthousiast with the stuff !   

 

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12 minutes ago, GloubieBoulga said:

I'm waiting for that with curiosity and interest ! 

I have been giving it a read the last two days. Oh my gawds it is good! 200 fairy tales that are so amazing and deep, even though most are only 2 or 3 pages long.

I opened the book to a random page and the story it opened to is called The North Wind's Gift. Hmmm...:idea:

This book was first published in 1980, just when George was developing his story The Ice Dragon. Between that story and the ASOIAF universe you can see an absolute ton of inspiration GRRM has taken from folk tales and fairy tales. Not all of it is for the major characters or major plots, but used for the secondary characters, or just a scene. But it is there and it is often.

 

12 minutes ago, GloubieBoulga said:

The more I think to Pinocchio, the more I find the theme very pertinent (here, I refer only to the movie, because I'm familiar with - my eldest little daughter is actually a Pinocchio's fan ^^; it's to long time I have read the book, and Disney can sometimes accomplish many significant transformations, so I can't refer to the book).

Agreed. I think what GRRM does is he uses these folk tales as inspiration, gets the in-world tale started, and then he converts it into his own story by transitioning it into something like The Last Hero reborn (as just a lose example).

I still think back and realize how funny it was the George said he didn't know much of Pinocchio, but then went on to describe the book story with details!!!! :lol: Mmmmhmmm, sure George.

12 minutes ago, GloubieBoulga said:

But I think also it's like GRRM uses the tale of Snow White : he never make a simple copy or transposition of events and characters. For example, in Snow White's tale, the father die at the very beginning (in the disney movie, he doesn't exist), but this absence has a particular signification : it shows that feminine power (not tempered by masulin power) is bad, immoderate, deadly dangerous and just tyrannic (in the movie, the bad queen stay as an ugly sorceress - her "true" face - after she killed Snow White), so the elimination of the bad queen must be the fact of a protective/good masculine character. GRRM keeps the structure of the tale, but give a totally different signification : behind the bad queen, there is a hidden paternal figure, a real predator, the most dangerous and lethal. And Sansa isn't the Cersei's puppet, but her father's, Robert's, Joffrey's, and above all Littlefinger. It is a story of emancipation, and what is interessant is that this thematic is finally the same as Pinocchio's theme. 

That is a good one. Sansa also has bits of Beauty and the Beast in her arc.

Maybe Arya is the Little Mermaid from the original story? She crosses a sea and part of her identity is taken from her in exchange for a "gift". There are definitely elements that carry over into Arya's Braavos plot https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Little_Mermaid

12 minutes ago, GloubieBoulga said:

I have thought a bit about Bran : 

- Jon II AGOT : Jon say goodbye to Bran, he is in the chamber and he sees a boy wha has lost his flesh and appears as a wooden stick (the bones) : 

 Here, Bran isn't only a wooden stick, he's also a very young, fragile and thin tree, and a little bird (In the Disney movie, Pinocchio is imprisoned by Stromboli in a cage like a bird). But if we go further in the symbolism, we must remember the Bran boy of the beginning = a Bran boy made of clay as other ordinary humans : 

In fact, this clay-boy dies, really physically dies. The new Bran begins his new life as a wooden puppet. 

Geppetto for Giuseppe, italian Josef. Josef is also carpenter, and Jesus' "father", the one who is a god and a human in the same time, and must save humanity by giving his human life, resurrecting as a part of god. At the end of the Pinocchio movie, Pinocchio give his puppet-life to save his father, and he is resurrected as a free clay-boy. I think it's interessant that the saga begins with the clay-Bran who physically dies. 

Good catches. Thank you for sharing them here. When I have a little more time then I will update the main post to reflect this info as well.

12 minutes ago, GloubieBoulga said:

Another interessant scene in the Pinocchio movie : the "lie-scene". When the blue-fairy come to deliver him, Pinocchio lies, and his nose grows, but not only a grow : it is turning into a strong branch, with leaves, and a nest, and little birds (there's is perhaps a clue here about Tyrion's nose and why it is cut = without a nose, Tyrion's lie can't no more be detected ? (I have absolutely no answer yet, it's just a proposition). It is said in the saga, that lying in front of a weirwood is impossible, but the weirwood, the crows and the ravens could lie (and Old Nan says that all crows are liars, in Bran IV or V, AGOT), as the wooden puppet does. 

There has been much speculation about the reason and meaning for Tyrion losing his nose. This seems like a very plausible idea. Maybe he can smell a lie better? He was able to detect the Joffery/Cats paw scheme after he lost his nose? There could be other lie detecting examples, but this one is coming to my mind first.

Just an idea.

12 minutes ago, GloubieBoulga said:

 

- Another reflexion : I think there is also something to look with the hanged men, who are litteraly dancing puppets with their strings. Hanging take place in Riverlands, the land of Harrenhal, and I ever more tempted to consider Rivelands/Harrenhal/Trident as a mirror for Winterfell/the Wall/beyond the wall (not in the same order). 

Like this...http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/File:Zippo514_LadyStoneheart.jpg

There is a good theory by a poster here that the power of the old gods is what raised LSH, which could fit if Bloodraven is an "old god" who runs the weirwood network at this time. Bloodraven, in life, was said to be the one to truly rule Westeros when he was the hand... the hand that controls the puppets!!!

I think it was in Sweetsunray's Cthonic cycle thread where she described the Riverlands and the Vale being part of the underworld, so this would be consistent with your temptation to compare these regions together.

12 minutes ago, GloubieBoulga said:

 

At least, your Pinocchio's idea convinced me as the Sweetsunray's "bear and fair maiden" did it last summer. I don't see necessarily exactly the same things, and I don't agree with all the details, which can be discussed and debated, but I'm totally enthousiast with the stuff !   

 

That @sweetsunray is amazing at her story decoding. Yeah, there are always little parts that may or may not fit with other people's ideas, but there is so much truth in the foundation that the small bits are just small bits :cheers:

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37 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

There has been much speculation about the reason and meaning for Tyrion losing his nose. This seems like a very plausible idea. Maybe he can smell a lie better? He was able to detect the Joffery/Cats paw scheme after he lost his nose? There could be other lie detecting examples, but this one is coming to my mind first.

oh yes : the Aegon's lie. When Tyrion says to Young Griff that his exchange story will enjoy singers, he tells that he don't believe it (we know, as readers, that for Tyrion, singers are liars or have a singular sense of the truth), but I think that Young Griff didn't understood exactly what Tyrion was meaning. 

"Slayer of lies" must be Daenerys. That's also a good point to make Tyrion one of the dragon's head (according to the fact that dragon's heads and dragon's riders are not necesseraly the sames)

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6 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Maybe Arya is the Little Mermaid from the original story? She crosses a sea and part of her identity is taken from her in exchange for a "gift". There are definitely elements that carry over into Arya's Braavos plot https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Little_Mermaid

 

Arya's next training is likely to involve a courtesan in Winds. The Black Pearl would be the best choice, but twice Arya notices the Merling Queen. Telling the Kindly Man about the little mermaid ^_^that drowned and was replaced by a lovely new one. Arya was blind when she spoke of this and the KM had to remind her she couldn't know if the new mermaid was lovely. 

Quote

 

"So are they all, at the beginning," said the priest, "but you cannot know that she is lovely unless you have seen her with your own eyes, and you have none. Who are you, child?"

"No one."

"Blind Beth the beggar girl is who I see. She is a wretched liar, that one.

 

 

I think Arya has a bias for courtesans which is contrary to how she normally view feminine things. Perhaps, hints at her budding maturity....?

 

Edited by DutchArya

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32 minutes ago, DutchArya said:

Arya's next training is likely to involve a courtesan in Winds. The Black Pearl would be the best choice, but twice Arya notices the Merling Queen. Telling the Kindly Man about the little mermaid ^_^that drowned and was replaced by a lovely new one. Arya was blind when she spoke of this and the KM had to remind her she couldn't know if the new mermaid was lovely. 

 

I think Arya has a bias fir courtesan which is contrary to how she normally view feminine things. Perhaps, hints at her budding maturity....?

 

Yeah. I think George loves these folktales and is more inspired by them than most people realize at first reading. 

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